Regen creation process need to be reworked

I’ve simulated as well as played many years into the future and certain things become very apparent as the years go by.

-The overall pace of all players seems to drop. It is rare to find a player with 18+ pace, especially one with average or better technical attributes.

-The same seems to hold true for jumping and all physical attributes mostly.

-The fact of the matter is a lot of world class players are great athletically but in the FM future the world is littered with high CA yet physically terrible players.

-Players seem to have terrible ratings for their positions, even high CA/PA players. Defenders with 5 pace, 12 tackling, 14 marking; Wingers pace 9, crossing 12, yet tackling 20 and 170+CA. Both are not as rare as you would think.

-PPMs go extinct pretty much. (Another thread touched on this and I agree)

-AI seems to not develop players very well. Players take too long to hit their peak and start to decline much too early.

-Also physical attributes need to peak and plateau faster. Not many players are getting faster at age 25, they are most likely the same speed they were at 19 - 20. Strength on the other hand can grow over a players career and maybe even cause pace to decrease as a result of getting stronger / gaining muscle / gaining weight.

-Overall quality of players declines and while there are still very good players out there, there is much less of them around than in the starting database so if the human manager gets a large number of them it makes winning easier than it should be.

Things I believe could be done to improve things?

-The 3 Main attribute sections need their own SEPERATE set of PA of sorts.

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Let us just say that players are still created with one set PA number as they are now. And let us just for a moment assume that 200 CA/PA means that every attribute equals 20 (I know it does not).

So we have a regen with 200 PA and during the regen creating process an algorithm of sorts kicks in and looks at PA (200) and maybe does a semi random determination (Maybe up to + or – 40) and decides “OK The physical PA of this player is 200 (-23) = 177â€. Now what would that mean? Assuming the player plays and develops properly around his peak (if trained properly) his average physical attribute should be somewhere around 17. The same could happen to a PA (123) player with a random factor of maybe + 33 to bring his physical PA to 155. Obviously the range and process would be much more complex but it would be something for a good start.

Then the game should look at the player’s natural position (height and weight as well perhaps) and tweak the physical attributes to usually suit their role on the field. The forwards and winger would be more speed and acceleration based and central defenders and goalkeepers would be more strength and jumping based; That sort of thing. Of course that would not be set in stone and it should still be possible to get a DC with 18 pace when developed but the game should more often than not make DCs with 18 jumping not pace.

This way let us assume that a 16 yr old regen has just been promoted with 200 Physical PA. He is a 5’ 10†and naturally an AMR. With those criteria he might start out with 14 Pace, 15 Acceleration, 16 Agility, 14 Balance, 9 Jumping, 10 Stamina, 11 Strength. At first look it is obvious that this is a quick player who can cut and plays on the ground instead of the air. With attributes like those at age 20 I would expect (with the proper development and remembering that he has a 200 physical PA) him to be 19 Pace, 19 Acceleration, 17 Agility, 16 Balance, 10 Jumping, 16 Stamina, 15 Strength.

** Things to note Agility should never go up too much as it is hard to improve, the same mostly applies to balance. Jumping should never rise too much since it should be determined by the height attribute mostly.

Other Examples

DC 6’5†(PA 200) at 16 – 10 Pace, 11 Acceleration, 11 Agility, 14 Balance, 17 Jumping, 14 Stamina, 14 Strength

DC 6’5†(PA 200) at 20 – 14 Pace, 16 Acceleration, 13 Agility, 19 Balance, 20 Jumping, 19 Stamina, 20 Strength

The above of course are examples of only the best athletes but you get the idea, these players exist and are not as rare as FM makes it seem with the current PA/CA model.

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The technical side of the Attributes could be done the same way (with a + or – algorithm) or it could just use the player PA to determine the max technical attributes (sort of how it does now).

The same sensible attribute distribution would apply so that as a regen is made they were more likely to receive attributes that they would use. Wingers would start with higher crossing, midfielders passing, defenders tackling etc…

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The mental attributes should be done in a way that makes sense. Basically right now it seems that all the attributes in this section are completely random and have no bearing on each other.

What I would like to see is a set of templates of sorts (with leeway for anomalies and changes) but basically there should be several sort of starting mental attributes that would be determined by the players personality and have absolutely NO relation to PA at all. They should also improve through a players career like they do currently.

Example:

A loyal professional player is more likely to have high(er) workrate, team work, determination, influence than a player that is very ambitious and unprofessional. That sort of thing. Basically some players are born to be a problem while others are natural game dictators and captains. This way the distribution of the mental attributes would make sense.

Now most players are most likely to be average mentally (maybe an average of 13 mentally at age 20) but perhaps 20% are either leaders or cancers.

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This combined system would allow for physically magnificent players that lack something technically as well as well superstars in both areas. It would allow for the dressing room cancer that looks great on paper but never plays well in big matches and never gets along with teammates and also for players that are field commanders. And of course everything in between.

Sorry about the extra long post but I just wanted to get a good discussion on the regen system going as the current state is not the best. Thanks for reading and I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

You've obviously spent a lot of time on this, so I'm sorry if my reply seems dismissive.

Essentially, most people already know this, inlcuding SI. They've said several times that it's under review, so we have to wait until FM09 to see how they got on.

Good post.

But one thing you missed was the penalty attributes stat. I havent seen a regen with more than 13 or 14 in that stat.

i would have posted but it didnt need much discussion, seemed you had it covered. interesting read all the same.

It seeems everry year the regens are under revie wand they never seem to get it right. Last years version seemed most functional. If they had kept that mode I would have almost no complaints.

And yes there are no people with good PK stats.

I don't understand how the testers could play into te future and not notice something was wrong.

Either way I hope SI can get it right for the next version. I have tried gonig back to FM07 but it is just not the same anymore becasue there is no facegen (most dont care for it but I love it, it gives the players personality) and the fact that once you are the favored team every other team starts to play a defensive counterattack game and 1-0 losses become far too common for the better team.

Give regens a (higher) chance of being declared for nation. Portugual just won the EUROS with 8 Brazillians in their starting line-up and 15 in their squad.

That certainly sounds like a good idea, especially with a country like Brazil.

Originally posted by SCIAG:

Give regens a (higher) chance of being declared for nation. Portugual just won the EUROS with 8 Brazillians in their starting line-up and 15 in their squad.

Totally agree with this

Great opening post as well even though I don't know if I agree with it all

have to find the right middle ground though. Regens in 07 were much to god, especially physically, so it seems they may have overcompensated slightly.

And by 'much too good', I mean a gradual increase up to twenty-fold in the number of world class players (after a slight initial dip).

True but if it comes down to it I'd rather have players be too good than terrible.

Here is the starting striker for Holland in 2030

PICTURE

That is attrocious.

That looks more like a national team selection problem? Or maybe there are just very few players if you aren't running the league - i generally run with most leagues so i haven't experienced that.

The problem with FM07 is that results became increasingly random as the whole of the prem became full of players with the physical ability of Essien and the technical skill of Messi. plus, there was virtually no differentiating between the quality of players in league 1 and the conference after a (long) while. The game became very much a lottery insofar as AI results went.

I have many leagues loaded, that jsut happens to be one of the best Dutch strikers in the game at the moment. Sure there may be better ones around possibly but the fact that anyone of that quality could make it anywhere near a major European national team signals that something is wrong.

And yes things have to be monitored carefully so the the balance does not go all out of whack but things defnately have to be improved from the current state.

Originally posted by DK10:

I have many leagues loaded, that jsut happens to be one of the best Dutch strikers in the game at the moment. Sure there may be better ones around possibly but the fact that anyone of that quality could make it anywhere near a major European national team signals that something is wrong.

And yes things have to be monitored carefully so the the balance does not go all out of whack but things defnately have to be improved from the current state.

well, i have to say i've never seen anything on that level myself, it certainly does look a bit odd.

Also it should not matter what leagues are loaded. The "Big" international teams should always be filled with real/regen players that are consistent with the level of play for that nation.

If I don't lead Spain or Italy their national teams 20 years from now should still be pretty strong.

The lack of loading those leagues shoudl jut cut down on the extra average or bellow average players from those countries.

Originally posted by DK10:

True but if it comes down to it I'd rather have players be too good than terrible.

Here is the starting striker for Holland in 2030

PICTURE

That is attrocious.

Just. Wow. 7 Caps. Wow. I'm speechless. He's quite possibly one of the worst players I've ever seen on FM. Wow.

Exactly. I should not have to load 25 countries on full detail and have a game database of over 100k players to get some good players.

Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DK10:

True but if it comes down to it I'd rather have players be too good than terrible.

Here is the starting striker for Holland in 2030

PICTURE

That is attrocious.

Just. Wow. 7 Caps. Wow. I'm speechless. He's quite possibly one of the worst players I've ever seen on FM. Wow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And his salary too for a fully-fledged international of a leading nation.

That does look like a nation-selection issue which I hope SI have logged.

Originally posted by DK10:

That certainly sounds like a good idea, especially with a country like Brazil.

i disagree, look at the number of brazilians playing in the european championships.

pepe and deco for portugal would on current form actually make the brazil first XI

spain and turkey both have brazilian DMC - senna and mehmet aurelio

croatia obviously did have eduardo et etc

this kind of thing is starting to become more and more common, 8 brazilians starting for portugal seems unlikely but is within the realms of possible.

Originally posted by DK10:

True but if it comes down to it I'd rather have players be too good than terrible.

Here is the starting striker for Holland in 2030

PICTURE

That is attrocious.

agreed, it will be impossible to make everyone happy, but erring on the side of too good would be much better.

we all end up with boring italian style teams now - squads full of technically excellent midfielders but lacking anyone with pace or dynazym - think any of capello's club sides.

Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DK10:

That certainly sounds like a good idea, especially with a country like Brazil.

i disagree, look at the number of brazilians playing in the european championships.

pepe and deco for portugal would on current form actually make the brazil first XI

spain and turkey both have brazilian DMC - senna and mehmet aurelio

croatia obviously did have eduardo et etc

this kind of thing is starting to become more and more common, 8 brazilians starting for portugal seems unlikely but is within the realms of possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats hardly the same as 8/11 that this guy is experiancing is it

The big problem with having separate physical, mental and technical PA is that it would lead to even more unbalanced players, not to mention big problems for the AI in evaluating players' respective worth

Where does a player with a Physical PA 165, Mental PA 95 and Technical PA 130 fit in? What level should he be playing at?

Is a defender with a Technical and Mental CA of 175 and a Physical CA of 130 world class or a liability? What about a midfielder with the same distribution of abilities?

On of the more interesting points you make is that mental stats should be associated with each other and the hidden player personalities a little more (though I don't see loyalty having any bearing on anything)