FM12 without steam: my humble proposal

I have already voiced my displeasure in the steam activation thread, so I don't want to keep moaning here or convince anyone that steam is the evil. That's SI/Sega decision and can't do anything about it, like it's my decision not to have steam on my computer.

As a matter of fact this means I, like some/many others long time fans, won't be able to keep playing the only videogame series I love and SI won't get my (our) money and lose my loyalty as a customer. Doesn't sound good for anyone tbh.

From what I've understood it's mainly an anti-piracy measure, and we've been explained that this steam activation's purpose is basically to delay the pirates so that there won't be hacked copies available when the game is officially released (or even before). In the eyes of SI/SEGA this "piracy delay" will help massively their sales as they think the biggest damages are usually done in that period right before and after release day. Fine.

So this is my humble proposal: let's wait, even a couple of months. And then SI can release a traditional non-steam disc version maybe around christmas time! At that point the piracy issue wouldn't be that much of an issue if I understand SI/SEGA's perspective?

Personally I still want to play the game, and keep supporting SI with my money and feedback like I've done for the past 10+ years. Plus I would never download a hacked version, mainly because that would be almost as ennoying as installing steam

I wonder: is this a possibility? would it make sense for SI? is this something SI can consider?

I don't think it would be possible to do that. Although I'm not 100% sure. The reason why I don't think it would be possible to create a non Steam disc version is because all disc version releases will need Steam. It would probably cost too much to re-release the game without the Steam activation code and it probably wouldn't give them enough reward through sales.

I dont really understand the aversion to steam anyway, it's safe, it's non-invasive, it doesn't force products upon you, it doesn't kill small fuzzy animals, it doesn't take much resources up, the social side is completely ignorable and even if you do use the social side, you can make your profile private. All it really means is, you have to swallow your pride and spend five minutes connected to the internet while you enter your code and perhaps longer while it installs. After that, offline mode it, pretend steam doesn't exist. It's a hell of a lot better than some games that spend memory and processing time trying to make sure you're using a proper copy constantly, being very invasive on your pc in the process and sending that data back to their company.

I dont really understand the aversion to steam anyway, it's safe, it's non-invasive, it doesn't force products upon you, it doesn't kill small fuzzy animals, it doesn't take much resources up, the social side is completely ignorable and even if you do use the social side, you can make your profile private. All it really means is, you have to swallow your pride and spend five minutes connected to the internet while you enter your code and perhaps longer while it installs. After that, offline mode it, pretend steam doesn't exist. It's a hell of a lot better than some games that spend memory and processing time trying to make sure you're using a proper copy constantly, being very invasive on your pc in the process and sending that data back to their company.

I second that. Don't see the problem.

"Human rights!!! They can't force this onto me!! I thought this was the UK!!" seems to be the general feeling from some.

It's a computer game. Get over it.

Stick to discussing the original proposal or this will be closed, thanks muchly.

I second that. Don't see the problem.

"Human rights!!! They can't force this onto me!! I thought this was the UK!!" seems to be the general feeling from some.

It's a computer game. Get over it.

Exactly this.

It's not exactly a great hardship.

Back to the OP, i dont think it is possible for them to re-release it without steam at a later date, i think the game is tied into steam when it is released, and i would imagine there would be a contract with steam giving it exclusive activation rights for this version.

I don't think it would be possible to do that. Although I'm not 100% sure. The reason why I don't think it would be possible to create a non Steam disc version is because all disc version releases will need Steam. It would probably cost too much to re-release the game without the Steam activation code and it probably wouldn't give them enough reward through sales.

I suspected that too, it would be interesting to hear from SI though. Maybe a limited edition? special luxury edition ?

I won't discuss the reason I dislike Steam and the way SEGA are forcing it upon us... (apparently we can't discuss it anymore?)

Anyway... in reply to the OP's idea, I think it could work ONLY if a non-Steam patch could be created without needing to rewrite a significant portion of the exe (or whatever controls the activation process).

If it's actually feasible, I don't see a valid reason for NOT releasing a 12.3 patch that will allow the owners of the boxed version to keep playing... Also because the game will sooner or later disappear from Steam's library...

And it would be quite stupid basically producing a game that will be "dead" in a couple of years... Look at how many people still play older FM (or even CM!) versions...

I second that. Don't see the problem.

"Human rights!!! They can't force this onto me!! I thought this was the UK!!" seems to be the general feeling from some.

It's a computer game. Get over it.

I'm not british and don't live in the UK . As I said I really don't want to debate about steam here, if it works for you then great for you. At the moment steam is not an option for me, I'd still love to play the series though hence this humble proposal.

Anyway... in reply to the OP's idea, I think it could work ONLY if a non-Steam patch could be created without needing to rewrite a significant portion of the exe (or whatever controls the activation process).

If it's actually feasible, I don't see a valid reason for NOT releasing a 12.3 patch that will allow the owners of the boxed version to keep playing... Also because the game will sooner or later disappear from Steam's library...

And it would be quite stupid basically producing a game that will be "dead" in a couple of years... Look at how many people still play older FM (or even CM!) versions...

that sounds interesting. Maybe only a 12.3 version? SI would you consider this?

@Kriss: hopefully people will keep it on topic, I really don't want another steam debate here. Just interested in other people's opinion on this proposal. And SI opinion of course.

this means I, like some/many others long time fans, won't be able to keep playing the only videogame series I love

I honestly cannot understand this.

I suppose if SI can come up with something that'll please everyone then that can only be a good thing (such as 12.3 non steam patch), but ultimately why should SI need to please everyone? If you don't want to buy the game - don't buy it.

From what I understand it's a small amount of people disspleased with Steam. From the amount of polls it was always roughly 70% for Steam and 30% against Steam - or roughly that. It was always largely in favour of Steam, whether it was; "Can't Wait I love Steam", "I'll use Steam but not happy", or "I hate Steam but I'm willing to buy anyway cos I love FM".

Unless it's profitable for SI to release the game after the final Patch in a non-steam version (don't see any point before Christmas?) Well anyway - they need to weigh up if they've lost sales, gained sales, or the same as last year.

Until they know what way things go with Steam, there really is no reason to speculate. They need to get the numbers in first. Perhaps Steam will be a success. Perhaps it will be a failure. If sales are lacking, they may announce a non-steam version to boost sales.

I'm not for or against the idea. But it will rely on a lot of factors.

I honestly cannot understand this.

I suppose if SI can come up with something that'll please everyone then that can only be a good thing (such as 12.3 non steam patch), but ultimately why should SI need to please everyone? If you don't want to buy the game - don't buy it.

SI obviously can and will do what they want. Don't want to play the loyalty card, but personally I've (tried to) help SI and CM/FM series in many ways in the last 10+ years, not only spending money. I didn't have to but I did it happily, for free. I like to think (dream) that maybe SI can try to please everyone even if they don't have to.

From what I understand it's a small amount of people disspleased with Steam. From the amount of polls it was always roughly 70% for Steam and 30% against Steam - or roughly that.

I'm not for or against the idea. But it will rely on a lot of factors.

Well from what I understand 100% of CM/FM long time fans that I personally know won't buy the game for that reason (a grand total of 7 people including me:D).

joking aside, I'd like to know more about those factors. I'd like to know if SI could ever consider this possibility.

I won't discuss the reason I dislike Steam and the way SEGA are forcing it upon us... (apparently we can't discuss it anymore?)

Anyway... in reply to the OP's idea, I think it could work ONLY if a non-Steam patch could be created without needing to rewrite a significant portion of the exe (or whatever controls the activation process).

If it's actually feasible, I don't see a valid reason for NOT releasing a 12.3 patch that will allow the owners of the boxed version to keep playing... Also because the game will sooner or later disappear from Steam's library...

And it would be quite stupid basically producing a game that will be "dead" in a couple of years... Look at how many people still play older FM (or even CM!) versions...

The game will never be unavailable from steam unless steam go bust. You can still play any version of FM released on the steam platform to this day. You have your own personally library on your own account, this never changes and no game will ever be deleted from there unless you do it yourself.

Even if its 30% we shouldnt be ignored or ridiculed or even banned for our opinions.

Even if its 30% we shouldnt be ignored or ridiculed or even banned for our opinions.

Nobody is banned for having an opinion, only for taking it too far when putting across their opinion, you can be outraged without resorting to insults or or abusive language.

Well Ive heard people being banned or warned they will be banned if they go on about it, and people are angry profanity is normal in life when someone is angry, if you stub your toe you shout a swear word, its freedom of speech, if someone was saying something nasty about someone on here then fair enough but if venting their anger I think profanity should be allowed.

I won't discuss the reason I dislike Steam and the way SEGA are forcing it upon us... (apparently we can't discuss it anymore?)

Anyway... in reply to the OP's idea, I think it could work ONLY if a non-Steam patch could be created without needing to rewrite a significant portion of the exe (or whatever controls the activation process).

If it's actually feasible, I don't see a valid reason for NOT releasing a 12.3 patch that will allow the owners of the boxed version to keep playing... Also because the game will sooner or later disappear from Steam's library...

And it would be quite stupid basically producing a game that will be "dead" in a couple of years... Look at how many people still play older FM (or even CM!) versions...

How would you access this 'Patch'?

Well Ive heard people being banned or warned they will be banned if they go on about it, and people are angry profanity is normal in life when someone is angry, if you stub your toe you shout a swear word, its freedom of speech, if someone was saying something nasty about someone on here then fair enough but if venting their anger I think profanity should be allowed.

The only people getting banned are because of their conduct, not because of what they are posting, SI are quite lenient on here compared to most games forums, you say anything against EA you get banned, same with steam, you start ranting and swearing your out right away. Dont forget you agree to SEGA's terms, conditions and rules when you sign up to the forums, the idea of freedom of speech on here is amusing because, to an extent your right, but only as far as the rules allow you, swearing and being abusive are against the rules, and to be honest if you can make your point without insulting or swearing you should keep it to yourself.

The game will never be unavailable from steam unless steam go bust. You can still play any version of FM released on the steam platform to this day. You have your own personally library on your own account, this never changes and no game will ever be deleted from there unless you do it yourself.

This It's that simple.

The only people getting banned are because of their conduct, not because of what they are posting, SI are quite lenient on here compared to most games forums, you say anything against EA you get banned, same with steam, you start ranting and swearing your out right away. Dont forget you agree to SEGA's terms, conditions and rules when you sign up to the forums, the idea of freedom of speech on here is amusing because, to an extent your right, but only as far as the rules allow you, swearing and being abusive are against the rules, and to be honest if you can make your point without insulting or swearing you should keep it to yourself.

The only time I've ever seen people banned is for persistent unreasonable behaviour or lanaguage, or for openly discussing piracy. However, today I have seen people blatantly state that they intend to pirate the game and even they have not been banned, so I guess SEGA/SI are being even more lenient than usual.

The only time I've ever seen people banned is for persistent unreasonable behaviour or lanaguage, or for openly discussing piracy. However, today I have seen people blatantly state that they intend to pirate the game and even they have not been banned, so I guess SEGA/SI are being even more lenient than usual.

You might want to look again, and of course feel free to report any posts you think warrant action, thanks.

The only time I've ever seen people banned is for persistent unreasonable behaviour or lanaguage, or for openly discussing piracy. However, today I have seen people blatantly state that they intend to pirate the game and even they have not been banned, so I guess SEGA/SI are being even more lenient than usual.

look again the guy has been banned

SI take piracy very very seriously, i was advised to remove a post when i joked about using a pirate version to find the magical win button, i would never use one(pirate version that is, win button....maybe ), but even joking about it is a no no.

Didn't an FM from a couple of years ago have a final patch released that removed the DRM in certain cases?

Until release, it's impossible to know how many people won't buy FM because of Steam. I don't know what the cost is in terms of time and money of creating a patch that will remove one form of DRM while simultaneously adding in another (possibly disc in drive), or how secure it is to do so, or how much money could potentially be made by appeasing customers who don't wish to use Steam.

Didn't an FM from a couple of years ago have a final patch released that removed the DRM in certain cases?

Until release, it's impossible to know how many people won't buy FM because of Steam. I don't know what the cost is in terms of time and money of creating a patch that will remove one form of DRM while simultaneously adding in another (possibly disc in drive), or how secure it is to do so, or how much money could potentially be made by appeasing customers who don't wish to use Steam.

It's impossible full stop. How will you know why they didn't buy it?

It's impossible full stop. How will you know why they didn't buy it?

Touché. Perhaps the only stat they can get is whether sales have risen or dropped compared to their year-on-year predictions.

Stick to discussing the original proposal or this will be closed, thanks muchly.

Apologies, anyway, pretty much like some others have said, it would be difficult to know exactly what copy you are getting and awkward to produce. Some retailers will have copies of the original steam-one floating around for ages if they happen to order a lot more than than they need in the short-term. They could just make it a patch that lets you install without steam later on, but that'd be awkward too. It's no one easy answer really.

OP, there may also be a contractual tie-in that precludes this.

Unless Steam go bust...

Trends in PC gaming (and gaming in general, and technology) are unpredictable, so who knows...

Anyway, why should SEGA NOT want to get the money from the few hundreds/thousands of FM'ers who aren't going to buy the game because of Steam?

I mean, if I know in March I'll be able to buy my boxed version AND get the non-Steam patch, I'd gladly wait until March to buy the game.

After all, what's better for SEGA?

Late purchase or no purchase at all?

steam have also stated that if they went bust, they would release all games that require steam activation, but we are talking about one of the worlds biggest game companies, the chances are slim at best.

I used to always install the game through offline mode because I was wary of using Steam.

Then a few months ago I had to re-install FM and thought I would give Steam a try up till FM12 was released and have to say there is no difference at all in the way the game runs, if anything its better as you get achievements (which I'm not to bothered about) and the game will update automatically when any patches are released.

I would say to anyone who is thinking about not getting the game because of this is to give it a try, it's not all that bad.

Unless Steam go bust...

Trends in PC gaming (and gaming in general, and technology) are unpredictable, so who knows...

Anyway, why should SEGA NOT want to get the money from the few hundreds/thousands of FM'ers who aren't going to buy the game because of Steam?

I mean, if I know in March I'll be able to buy my boxed version AND get the non-Steam patch, I'd gladly wait until March to buy the game.

After all, what's better for SEGA?

Late purchase or no purchase at all?

I'd go for late purchase definitely! Keep playing my long term FM11 save until march then gladly buy this 12.3 patched, non-steam boxed version!

steam have also stated that if they went bust, they would release all games that require steam activation, but we are talking about one of the worlds biggest game companies, the chances are slim at best.

Although Valve is under no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable.

Although Valve is under no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable.

No, but SI have no legal obligation to release any patches for FM, but we trust them each year when they say they will, for me the same applies here. Anyway, if you have your steam in offline mode before the doors shut you wont have any problems

No, but SI have no legal obligation to release any patches for FM, but we trust them each year when they say they will, for me the same applies here. Anyway, if you have your steam in offline mode before the doors shut you wont have any problems

Cheers, I have Steam in offcomputer mode so I think I'm ok.

steam have also stated that if they went bust, they would release all games that require steam activation, but we are talking about one of the worlds biggest game companies, the chances are slim at best.

10 years ago, we didn't see Yahoo! falling.

5 years ago, we didn't see Google running into issues in expanding its businesses. Today, Google looks fairly vulnerable as it only has one real source of income.

Today? Steam? Even Apple, perhaps! Even Facebook looks like it's running into issues and that is a fairly young technology.

So to say it's "slim" is not really true at all. The future is digital downloads and services - whether Steam is part of that revolution or not is another question altogether. The gaming industry is littered with publishers, developers and third parties who no longer are in business - you just never hear about them.

Unless Steam is legally obliged to do so, there is no reason to assume they will. If Steam is going bust, are they really going to risk getting sued by publishers in renegading on contract deals by removing their control over it, or negotiating deals that can only be financially detrimental to them to release the games as non-Steam versions?

steam have also stated that if they went bust, they would release all games that require steam activation, but we are talking about one of the worlds biggest game companies, the chances are slim at best.

Its 2011. deal with it. this is not 1994 anymore.

If they are bust then getting sued is going to be the least of their worries

Anyway lets not derail this too much, steam isnt going anywhere anytime soon, there is no set time limit on how long a game is avaliable on steam, it is there until the platform no longer exists at the minimum. If the day comes that steam is no longer avaliable im sure both the games companies and Valve have a fall back plan.

are people honestly discussing whether steam will go bust or not? getting desperate in arguements

X42bn why dont you address the OP's question rather than argue with me, you have more knowlage of computing than most of us, how simple a task would it be to make a version of FM that no longer required steam keeping in mind this years version is only released on that platform.

15 years ago, we didn't think Microsoft would be vulnerable.

10 years ago, we didn't see Yahoo! falling.

5 years ago, we didn't see Google running into issues in expanding its businesses. Today, Google looks fairly vulnerable as it only has one real source of income.

Today? Steam? Even Apple, perhaps! Even Facebook looks like it's running into issues and that is a fairly young technology.

So to say it's "slim" is not really true at all. The future is digital downloads and services - whether Steam is part of that revolution or not is another question altogether. The gaming industry is littered with publishers, developers and third parties who no longer are in business - you just never hear about them.

Unless Steam is legally obliged to do so, there is no reason to assume they will. If Steam is going bust, are they really going to risk getting sued by publishers in renegading on contract deals by removing their control over it, or negotiating deals that can only be financially detrimental to them to release the games as non-Steam versions?

A.none of those companies have went bust.

B.FM is an annual release game, we wont be playing fm12 in 5, 10 or 15 years

C. If they did go bust then it would be insane for SI not to sort out some way of letting people play the game that they have bought given they rely on repeat customers. If they require a one time steam activation and steam goes down are they a.going to stop selling the game and tell everyone "tough luck" costing them sales and all sorts of customer loyalty or b.going to sort something out.

Is everybody missing the obvious point that if Sega/SI are making people use steam, then its also up to them to make sure that people can access the game (not necessarily from a legal point of but from a customer service point of view)

If they are bust then getting sued is going to be the least of their worries

What is more likely that Valve going bust means Valve has to negotiate break clauses with its publishers (and they will be in a terrible position for negotiations) and shut down its servers. It will cut jobs and nobody is going to develop an "non-Steam" patch. Any development has to make them money to satisfy its creditors - a "non-Steam" patch isn't going to do that. Any remaining resource is going to run the remaining Steam servers and try and host the cheaper games to make money. Any game cut from these servers is likely to run into problems, if not fail.

Once you are at the mercy of your debts, your consumer base isn't your first issue. No company has a bankruptcy plan unless it is on the verge of bankruptcy, since the creditors heavily influence what happens, not the corporate figures.

When the likes of Enron went bust, its customers got nothing, whilst its creditors got something (if not much). Once the wheels of bankruptcy started at Enron, pretty much every following action went against its customers. Once this happens, customers are unimportant.

It will be, since if they deliberately take the company down, it opens up questions about personal liability.

What is more likely that Valve going bust means Valve has to negotiate break clauses with its publishers (and they will be in a terrible position for negotiations) and shut down its servers. It will cut jobs and nobody is going to develop an "non-Steam" patch. Any development has to make them money to satisfy its creditors - a "non-Steam" patch isn't going to do that. Any remaining resource is going to run the remaining Steam servers and try and host the cheaper games to make money. Any game cut from these servers is likely to run into problems, if not fail.

Once you are at the mercy of your debts, your consumer base isn't your first issue. No company has a bankruptcy plan unless it is on the verge of bankruptcy, since the creditors heavily influence what happens, not the corporate figures.

When the likes of Enron went bust, its customers got nothing, whilst its creditors got something (if not much). Once the wheels of bankruptcy started at Enron, pretty much every following action went against its customers. Once this happens, customers are unimportant.

Like i say, how about addressing the OP's point rather than arguing with me over the long term avaliablity of steam? Your in a better position than most to tell us if its viable or not.

A.none of those companies have went bust.

B.FM is an annual release game, we wont be playing fm12 in 5, 10 or 15 years

C. If they did go bust then it would be insane for SI not to sort out some way of letting people play the game that they have bought given they rely on repeat customeres. If they require a one time steam activation and steam goes down are they a.going to stop selling the game and tell everyone "tough luck" costing them sales and all sorts of customer loyalty or b.going to sort something out

Peregrine Systems, UIQ Technology, SCO Group, think3... These companies might not have been incredibly well-known, but they had a peak and then a sharp bust into bankruptcy or thereabouts. This is the software industry.

Any sort of solution will need to be developed and implemented partly by Steam, too, and remember that FM11 will still be "phoning home" to Steam and running into problems. So sure, there's a solution, but it's naive to think that Steam will jump at the opportunity for them to lose more money in a bankruptcy scenario...

None of these went bust but this is just an example of how the technology industry is notoriously fickle and unpredictable. Ratings agencies have been bashed a lot recently but only Microsoft has got an AAA rating (and that is in question). Google has Aa2, the third-highest!

Peregrine Systems, UIQ Technology, SCO Group, think3... These companies might not have been incredibly well-known, but they had a peak and then a sharp bust into bankruptcy or thereabouts. This is the software industry.

Any sort of solution will need to be developed and implemented partly by Steam, too, and remember that FM11 will still be "phoning home" to Steam and running into problems. So sure, there's a solution, but it's naive to think that Steam will jump at the opportunity for them to lose more money in a bankruptcy scenario...

AA2 rating is a pretty high investment grade rating, third highest in this case doesnt mean crap.

It wouldnt necessarily need to involve steam at all , SI/SEGA would have the right to distribute the game in any alternate manner they wanted. Just because a game uses steam does not make that game steams property, nor does it give them any rights over the licence of the software, hence you can buy copies of FM12 from shops to activate on steam without steam being involved in the sale of these games/licences.

AA2 rating is a pretty high investment grade rating, third highest in this case doesnt mean crap.

No, it doesn't, but Google is a massive company with plenty of income streams, holding a massive consumer-base - and yet it's not one of the least-risky companies out there.

If Google isn't one of the least-likely-to-default companies, where would Valve go? What does that say about "slim"? It's not slim at all!

It wouldnt necessarily need to involve steam at all , SI/SEGA would have the right to distribute the game in any alternate manner they wanted. Just because a game uses steam does not make that game steams property, nor does it give them any rights over the licence of the software, hence you can buy copies of FM12 from shops to activate on steam without steam being involved in the sale of these games/licences.

For new customers, sure, SI might have a solution... But it's the existing users who have the problem, not new ones.

steam have also stated that if they went bust, they would release all games that require steam activation, but we are talking about one of the worlds biggest game companies, the chances are slim at best.

Tell that to Microprose, Sierra Entertainment, Midway Games and Westwood Studios, closed doors one way or the other. Even Spectrum and Amiga were leaders of market during their golden years and where are they now? Sega needed to be restructured. What does it tell us? Nothing is guarantee to last forever.