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arfaern
24-12-2007, 18:21
I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea squad end season:
http://static.flickr.com/2230/2133753381_f63d3b1e8b_d.jpg

Chelsea transfers:
http://static.flickr.com/2119/2133775037_4682ddfdaf_d.jpg

Millwall squad end season:
http://static.flickr.com/2046/2133752821_ba393a0623_d.jpg

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division:
http://static.flickr.com/2376/2134531294_e0c4d9af51_d.jpg

End Season Coca-Cola league 1:
http://static.flickr.com/2326/2133753057_356111c173_d.jpg

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages
http://static.flickr.com/2211/2133765359_c877cf5c43_d.jpg

First knockout:
http://static.flickr.com/2149/2134543846_8f4e69136a_d.jpg

Quater:
http://static.flickr.com/2396/2133765595_e595c6cd17_d.jpg

Semi:
http://static.flickr.com/2126/2133765733_5869858d68_d.jpg

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

http://static.flickr.com/2078/2134531632_4da89bef43_d.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/2403/2133753721_acff190e53_d.jpg

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

arfaern
24-12-2007, 18:21
I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea squad end season:
http://static.flickr.com/2230/2133753381_f63d3b1e8b_d.jpg

Chelsea transfers:
http://static.flickr.com/2119/2133775037_4682ddfdaf_d.jpg

Millwall squad end season:
http://static.flickr.com/2046/2133752821_ba393a0623_d.jpg

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division:
http://static.flickr.com/2376/2134531294_e0c4d9af51_d.jpg

End Season Coca-Cola league 1:
http://static.flickr.com/2326/2133753057_356111c173_d.jpg

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages
http://static.flickr.com/2211/2133765359_c877cf5c43_d.jpg

First knockout:
http://static.flickr.com/2149/2134543846_8f4e69136a_d.jpg

Quater:
http://static.flickr.com/2396/2133765595_e595c6cd17_d.jpg

Semi:
http://static.flickr.com/2126/2133765733_5869858d68_d.jpg

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

http://static.flickr.com/2078/2134531632_4da89bef43_d.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/2403/2133753721_acff190e53_d.jpg

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

arfaern
24-12-2007, 18:26
Images (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16964069@N06/tags/fm/)

arfaern
25-12-2007, 02:02
I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea Chelsea squad end season (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/2133753381_6589737d87_o.jpg)
Chelsea transfers (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2119/2133775037_5a02d5c00d_o.jpg)

Millwall squad end season (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2046/2133752821_3bf11a013e_o.jpg)

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2376/2134531294_e9ab71e59d_o.jpg)

End Season Coca-Cola league 1 (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2326/2133753057_05c4d96b69_o.jpg)

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2211/2133765359_210483013a_o.jpg)

First knockout (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2149/2134543846_e3a776ddef_o.jpg)

Quater (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2396/2133765595_847e3d0d87_o.jpg)

Semi (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2126/2133765733_afa8044819_o.jpg)

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

Cummings (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2403/2133753721_2ae2981932_o.jpg)

Nielsen (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2078/2134531632_5d841b3806_o.jpg)

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

Larger images (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16964069@N06/tags/fm/)

arfaern
25-12-2007, 02:04
I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea Chelsea squad end season (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/2133753381_6589737d87_o.jpg)
Chelsea transfers (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2119/2133775037_5a02d5c00d_o.jpg)

Millwall squad end season (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2046/2133752821_3bf11a013e_o.jpg)

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2376/2134531294_e9ab71e59d_o.jpg)

End Season Coca-Cola league 1 (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2326/2133753057_05c4d96b69_o.jpg)

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2211/2133765359_210483013a_o.jpg)

First knockout (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2149/2134543846_e3a776ddef_o.jpg)

Quater (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2396/2133765595_847e3d0d87_o.jpg)

Semi (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2126/2133765733_afa8044819_o.jpg)

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

Cummings (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2403/2133753721_2ae2981932_o.jpg)

Nielsen (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2078/2134531632_5d841b3806_o.jpg)

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

Larger images (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16964069@N06/tags/fm/)

Jimbokav1971
25-12-2007, 02:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you explain that please.

If the range is 1 to -200, how do you move players above 80 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif?

Jimbokav1971
25-12-2007, 02:14
My first instinct was that this was a load of old twaddle, but it seems that you in fact raise some very valid points http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 02:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you explain that please.

If the range is 1 to -200, how do you move players above 80 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry if I was not very coherent, but I was writing the post at 2:30 in the morning.

I mean i moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that have the current ability attribute above or equal of 80 (the current ability attriute can be between min. 1 and max. 200) to Millwall.

DeadZone
25-12-2007, 02:22
Yea, I have a feeling Club rep might have something to do with it
Perhaps you should try swapping the reputations around, and see what results you get

arfaern
25-12-2007, 02:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeadZone:
Yea, I have a feeling Club rep might have something to do with it
Perhaps you should try swapping the reputations around, and see what results you get </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I don't give a crap why this is like it is, and what SI did with the game engine, I just wanted to show that the game engine is rigged.

Your point is right that it seams that the engine relies on the rep of the clubs to even things out.

I would like to hear a official comment from SI on this kind of game behavior.

The funny thing is that in the Coca cola league 1, Dider Drogba managed to score only 30 goals in 55 games of he played in the season, and Chech managed to coneced 53. WTF??????

Jimbokav1971
25-12-2007, 02:39
With the utmost respect.....

You haven't proved that the match engine is bogus at all.

You have proved that the results that can be achieved by use of the editor are strange. There are too many variables invilved for you to say with any certaintly that the match engine is responsible, (although it would certainly seem to suggest it).

Other factors, (just off the top of my head) that might be influencing this are, standard of training facilities, standard of coaching staff, hidden attributes making "stars" perform below acceptable levels and making "youngsters" overperform.

It is pretty naive of you to ignore all these other factors and concentrate solely on the one are that you wish to. The game isn't that simple unfortunately.

Well done though, you have certainly raised some excellent questions, just don't be too quick to jump to a poorly thought out conclusion.

As for a respomnse from SI, I would hope that you would get one too, but remember that it is Christmas Day and they all have families and lifes of their own too.

Merry Christmas.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 02:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
With the utmost respect.....

You haven't proved that the match engine is bogus at all.

You have proved that the results that can be achieved by use of the editor are strange. There are too many variables invilved for you to say with any certaintly that the match engine is responsible, (although it would certainly seem to suggest it).

Other factors, (just off the top of my head) that might be influencing this are, standard of training facilities, standard of coaching staff, hidden attributes making "stars" perform below acceptable levels and making "youngsters" overperform.

It is pretty naive of you to ignore all these other factors and concentrate solely on the one are that you wish to. The game isn't that simple unfortunately.

Well done though, you have certainly raised some excellent questions, just don't be too quick to jump to a poorly thought out conclusion.

As for a respomnse from SI, I would hope that you would get one too, but remember that it is Christmas Day and they all have families and lifes of their own too.

Merry Christmas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure if you believe that that Drogba with his stats would score only 24 in 39 league games in Coca cola league 1, and Nielsen with his finishing attribute of 12 score 17 in 33 games in the Premiership.

If that is a realistic simulation of football I will personally go to the SI headquarters and kiss everybody's ass.

mimland
25-12-2007, 02:58
I think the club reputation has too much influence on performance. After about 10 years into a season there has been some swapping around in players and some of the upcoming teams has managed to get a decent squad. Unfortunatly a good bunch of players and a good tactic is not enough on too many occations. If your teams reputation doesn't climb at the same rate as the team does it will be a struggle more often than not no matter what you field.

tingting
25-12-2007, 03:00
would love to know the number of clear chances created by each teams....i assume u made no chances to the managers of both the teams??

Jimbokav1971
25-12-2007, 03:02
I am not saying that it is a realistic simulation of anything.

I am saying that you have done a test and come up with some worrying/results. The problem is the conclusions that you are drawing from these results. You have proved that something is wrong. Unfortunately you have not proved what it is that is wrong.

Do you see what I mean?

If you can be bothered to take the next step, what you need to do is change some other variables to see what else affects the player performances.

Only once you have ruled all the other variables out can you say with any certainty that it is down to the match engine.

DO you see what I mean now?

DS
25-12-2007, 03:15
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?
Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 03:20
I never said it was the match engine, I only mentioned the game engine in general.

It is not up to me to find out where the fault is, and I really don't care.

I just wanted to show that the fault exists.

Jimbokav1971
25-12-2007, 03:23
Yes you did.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actually I don't give a crap why this is like it is, and what SI did with the game engine, I just wanted to show that the game engine is rigged.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DS
25-12-2007, 03:25
Well it isnt the game engine I guess. It is more the way SI made the game calculate games not run in detail. Seems to be down to reputation. I understand why they did this...because it is faster. But maybe they could figure out a way to factor attributes into it as well while keeping it at the same speed. Now that will require much more efficient code. If they really wanted to do this then they could go and code it it in machine code for all I care. But obviously they wont. Once again it comes down to the fact that even thought the game has a lot of problems, it is still the best football management game on the market and so people keep buying it and since SI keep making money they have no reason to fix it. I ave no problem with that, I would do the same thing. SI is a business after all and they have the right to make money and fair play to them.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 03:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?
Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions.

DS
25-12-2007, 03:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?
Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good. I am confident that you will find that realistic results occur like this. Well reasonably realistic results at least. Then we would have shown that the problem is with the simulation of no detail games

Jimbokav1971
25-12-2007, 03:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the spirit http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

None of the "I don't care" malarkey http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

If you didn't care you wouldn't be posting about it on Christams Day.

Merry Christmas http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 03:31
But what does that mean, that you should watch all the games of your competitors to get the accurate results?

Or that teams like Chelsea can do significantly better than you with players with lower attributes just because they have a better reputation??

Thats BS.

DS
25-12-2007, 03:33
yes its obviously a game flaw. But thats why the game forces you to run the games in detail that are in a competition you are part of. So if you are managing an EPL team all EPL matches are run in detail automatically so you get realistic results. But still a huge flaw in the game that non detail games are complete BS.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 03:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the spirit http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

None of the "I don't care" malarkey http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

If you didn't care you wouldn't be posting about it on Christams Day.

Merry Christmas http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course I care because this is my favorite game, and apart from tetris is the game i played most, and I am playing it for the last 10 or so years, and I will keep playing, but SI will have to change something to keep me buying the FM 2009.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 03:54
So ok I rerun the game with full detail on English competitions and European competitions.

The amazing thing is that Chelsea managed a 13th place in the Premiership, and a quarter final of the Championship League.

So the result are the more or less the same as with the game run without full detail.

So it is not in the detail level of the matches.

DS
25-12-2007, 04:05
Wow, that was quicker then I thought. So it is a bit better but also the manager comes into play in this. But it is still unrealistic. Hopefully SI will see this thread.

Jimbokav1971
25-12-2007, 04:15
arfaern. If you've got some time on your hands, perhaps you could keep running the experiment and change some of the other variables one by one.

Maybe you could swap the training facilities in one.

Maybe you could swap the coaching setup/manager in one.

Maybe you could swap the club reputations in another.

Not sure about other variables.

Then this will sort of narrow what might be affecting this.

SkidRo
25-12-2007, 04:38
it is true that good teams tend to underperform in leagues run with no detail in my current game arsenal finished 6th and i run that league with no detail. so it goes to show even some teams that have great squads still perform crap. oh yeh and inter milan didnt even make champions league thats how **** ther performed in italy - also run in no detail.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 04:51
Ha this is complete BS.

Set the reputation of Chelsea squad from 9500 to 1000, and now amazingly they finnish last in the premiership and lose all their games in Championship Leauge goal difference 0-13.

Now I would like to ask SI what has the reputation of the club to do with the result of their games??

alutac13
25-12-2007, 04:52
I am not too suprised that they finished 15th with rubbish players. The match engine is seriously biased against certain formations/tactics so those managers that used those will lose most of the time no matter how much better there players are. for example Pourtsmouth who were european contenders for 3 season straight are now in the relegation zone thanks to using a 3-5-2 formation.

Soton
25-12-2007, 05:22
In the data editor there is something like "Team Stats." Where the teams ability to perform the offside trap, the ability to use a play maker etc. are all given 1-20.

I think these stats might be factored into results, which is bogus.

lil ole me
25-12-2007, 05:30
that is amazing m8..........I know this is true for a fact as i made a non league side with 9000 reputation with the same squad as when the game starts and my side win the league amazingly by massive points but when i put the players on max CA with a very low reputation i am amazingly 30-1 outsiders on most games??????????

i give up http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

ViG1980
25-12-2007, 06:03
Arfaern, nice little expiriment.

Anyway, I think this is interesting and that maybe SI can divulge whether or not it is true that reputation is playing a role in the results as it does take quite a bit out of the game. For example, if a new owner buys a team that is somewhat big and has the potential to be bigger, they will never achieve this if their reputation is not high enough at the off!

acf69
25-12-2007, 06:07
This pretty much gives me more reasons to believe that the match engine indeed is based on only a few variables and everything else is window dressing to pretend one can influence.

Just take the CA of all players and Club Reputation, mix in some additions/substractions based on fitness level, morale and tactics and voila.

RubenJ
25-12-2007, 07:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
Ha this is complete BS.

Set the reputation of Chelsea squad from 9500 to 1000, and now amazingly they finnish last in the premiership and lose all their games in Championship Leauge goal difference 0-13.

Now I would like to ask SI what has the reputation of the club to do with the result of their games?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tbh, reputation is an important factor irl too.

If Anderlecht play against Barcelona for example, they will always start the match very cautious and very defensive.

Now, the game doesn't recognize the fact that chelsea has rubbish players (because normally a high rep is always accompanied by good players), so the oppostition will still act as if they are playing a very strong team based on reputation.

You created a situation that would never happen in the first place, so the game struggles to deal with it as can be expected. In other words, your experiment does not prove anything besides the fact that reputation is important for AI vs AI matches, which is not anything other than normal IMO.

delibey
25-12-2007, 08:01
This doesn't show anything about the match engine. arfaern clearly says it's "the game engine" that's troubling.

arfaern: Is there any way you can view Chelsea's matches and report what's been going on? I'm guessing if you could you'd see a completely normal match(by FM08 standards) but simply Chelsea's players converting chances as if they were the original and better players. How are matches we don't see simulated? Is there a different match engine that uses reputation instead of attributes? Is there no match engine and the game simply churns out results based on reputation? That would make sense because it helps create realistic results in the grand scale of things in leagues you don't see or care. But obviously it's very unrealistic that player abilities(or anything else for that matter) play no part in getting a team and reputation does all the work. That's just not good.

Mikealdo
25-12-2007, 08:22
Right.

So I could conceivably find the most obscure club in existance in the editor, transfer all their players to Real Madrid, removing all their original superstars...and your research indicates that the club reputation variable would intercede and ensure that Crap Madrid would still compete close to their usual level??

If this is true, then attributes, and by consequence, scouting & buying players takes on an irrelevance.

Arfaern, I really hope you continue this thread and perform additional experiments on the game engine. If what you've already suggested should turn out to be conclusive...then this game can go to hell.

I'll be going back to Oblivion.

Greg Andrade
25-12-2007, 08:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you remove the players' actual attributes in all categories? If you change PA and CA, but you do not remove the individual attribute figures, then I think the game will use the attribute figures and compute a correct CA based on those. So changing the CA would be a waste of time, and that may be why you saw some of the results you did.

Lucho_
25-12-2007, 08:49
I'm happy to see more people doing experiments with FM.

As advice, you should check out the Challenges/Sign-Ups/Holiday Games forum, since lots of what people are wondering in this thread has already been answered in experiments done in that forum, and it would also give you some ideas about how to do this experiment in a better way.

Good luck! http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

elsgouro
25-12-2007, 09:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Tbh, reputation is an important factor irl too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agry with RubenJ.

Reputation is a main factor IRL, and can determine many aspects of a game - the ref's decisions, the way the opponent is facing a high rep team, even the way the players motivate themselves playing for a high rep club or the opposite (and many other aspects, of course, more important or not).

The problem is if the AI calculates the results based on reputation ONLY, which is the wrong way, IMO.

marx
25-12-2007, 09:35
I started a game with Premiership only on small database. After start I used FMM to lower reputation of Arsenal to 1. I went on holidays till 1 May 2008 (i don't know exactly when Premiership ends). Will report what's going on

DerbyK
25-12-2007, 10:05
If I worked for SI, Id be very worried by what's being said in this thread.

Frankly, if this series of experiments comes out with the results it expects, Id be quite happy to never look/touch/buy another game from this series.

marx
25-12-2007, 10:07
here are results.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9485/arsenalpp6.jpg
Despite 2 games to go Arsenal falls to lower league.
Arsenal has sold almost all squad for 42M pounds.

ViG1980
25-12-2007, 10:11
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:
here are results.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9485/arsenalpp6.jpg
Despite 2 games to go Arsenal falls to lower league.
Arsenal has sold almost all squad for 42M pounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair to Si, i don't think this proves anything. If Arsenal sell all of their squad then no surprise where they end up in the league...

marx
25-12-2007, 10:12
Transfers:
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8742/arsenal2fy3.jpg
Main factor of poor form is selling all quality players.
I will try this test with transfers switched off

James1983
25-12-2007, 10:13
Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results).

marx
25-12-2007, 10:19
i didn't change anything else.
This time I will change reputation at 1.9.2007

DerbyK
25-12-2007, 10:22
hmmm, this topic certainly raises some questions SI needs to answer...

yankee_ram
25-12-2007, 10:23
Hmm just read through all this and I must say there are some things that are worrying to me. If the main thing behind a team getting results is club reputation then the game engine is seriously flawed. I think all these experiments are very telling and look forward to reading further results of them. If the results still keep coming back the way they are now, I will have some thinking to do about next years edition.

marx
25-12-2007, 10:24
ok, 1.09.2007 table:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9756/arsenal3rk2.jpg
I changed reputation and wait on holidays till 12.08.2008

Lucho_
25-12-2007, 10:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James1983:
Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the lower reputation made Arsenal sell all of its squad, and that caused the team to perform so poorly. It was probably the bad players, and not the poor reputation that caused the results.

Again, all of this has been done in the Challenges forum.

Spagbol
25-12-2007, 10:37
Very worrying.

I'm tempted to run a holiday game after placing ten non-league clubs in the prem with 9000 rep, then minimise the ten remaining prem clubs to 100 rep.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 10:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Greg Andrade:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you remove the players' actual attributes in all categories? If you change PA and CA, but you do not remove the individual attribute figures, then I think the game will use the attribute figures and compute a correct CA based on those. So changing the CA would be a waste of time, and that may be why you saw some of the results you did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not remove the players CA I removed the players them selfs

arfaern
25-12-2007, 10:40
Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.
The results now you ask?
Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?
Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:
15/13. Premiership
Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:
20 Premiership
Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it?

marx
25-12-2007, 10:42
ok here are results till 1.1.2008.
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1893/arsenal4am5.jpg
After this date Arsenal has sold all their key players sa next matches doesn't say anything.
As we see Arsenal is seriously underperforming
How long lasts transfer window in England?
In next test I will try to manage Arsenal in transfer window to force them not to sell any players

Lucho_
25-12-2007, 10:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.
The results now you ask?
Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?
Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:
15/13. Premiership
Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:
20 Premiership
Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have the savegames and the time, please calculate the averaga CA of the teams Chelsea regularly fielded in both games and post them here. Would be interesting to see if they are different or similar.

Thanks!

marx
25-12-2007, 11:20
ok third test:
transfer switched off, half a season played
Arsenal is 11, quite bad but not disaster - so it doesn't prove anything yet
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8756/arsenal5rz9.jpg

Apocalypse
25-12-2007, 11:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.
The results now you ask?
Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?
Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:
15/13. Premiership
Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:
20 Premiership
Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

have you tried using the chelsea superstars with only a 1000 team reputation,would be interesting to see them results

rich_barnes
25-12-2007, 11:53
right i thought id try this the other way around, so iv made derbys reputation 9999 and gone on holiday, they dont have enough cash to alter the squad much so we shall see how it goes.

Silver Foxx
25-12-2007, 11:57
I can't wait to see a reply to this thread when the festive holidays are over. Sports Interactive - I feel you owe a reply to this interesting and comprehensive thread.

Let's hear what S.I.'s version on the above is, I look forward to this.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 11:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Apocalypse:
have you tried using the chelsea superstars with only a 1000 team reputation,would be interesting to see them results </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes i tried that, Chelsea ended up 4 in the premiership trailing by 15 points, knocked out at the first knock out round of the Championship League.

Not a bad result you might say, but normally (game wise) Chelsea takes the premiership by a 5-10 point margin, and makes it to the Championship League semis.

marx
25-12-2007, 12:04
still third test
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1298/arsenal6ks0.jpg
all january i was managing Arsenal myself, but on holiday. I managed to stop leaving most of key players, unfortunatelly some of them has signed contract before transfer windwos has opened.
Now i has left Arsenal and will wait till end of season

jase19
25-12-2007, 12:10
i'm no saying these arguments aren't valid

but i have got bath city to the championship with a rep of like 3500 and i'm near top half in february (sitting 11th).

granted it was a struggle and i usually snuck in on playoffs and was lucky to get good loan players, but thats just it... i think my loaners did more than my crappy rep ever did.

James1983
25-12-2007, 12:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucho_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James1983:
Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the lower reputation made Arsenal sell all of its squad, and that caused the team to perform so poorly. It was probably the bad players, and not the poor reputation that caused the results.

Again, all of this has been done in the Challenges forum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha!Well that would seem obvious, strange that I didn't pick up on it. So reducing the reputation takes a realistic effect - why would the likes of Cesc Fabregas play for an unknown club?

rich_barnes
25-12-2007, 12:19
well so far with a reputation of 9999 derby have played 4 and lost 4,

chelsea with a rep of 1 have played 3 drawn 3 but i put that down to the fact that the players all want to leave.

marx
25-12-2007, 12:21
third test has ended:
Arsenal survive in Premiership, but ended at 17 place and only 4 points from relegation.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4353/arsenal7kg7.jpg
Here are transfers:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1654/arsenal8jg1.jpg
They lost a few important players but not so much as in previous tests (7M sold vs 40M) so their power should be enough to gain higher position.

TGD
25-12-2007, 12:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:
third test has ended:
Arsenal survive in Premiership, but ended at 17 place and only 4 points from relegation.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4353/arsenal7kg7.jpg
Here are transfers:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1654/arsenal8jg1.jpg
They lost a few important players but not so much as in previous tests (7M sold vs 40M) so their power should be enough to gain higher position. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

mate I can't agree with the test. I believe you have a few points but Arsenal losing Toure is like Chelsea losing Terry. No rosicky either and no replacements. Its obvious Arsenal will struggle.

marx
25-12-2007, 12:28
the've sold Thierry Henrie and doesn't struggle...

RSCA4Ever
25-12-2007, 12:34
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Results calculated by reputation!!! This really disappoints me! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
That is such an unrealistic approach to do, because injuries or lack of quality players won't matter at all then for big teams.
This should have been done completely different.
Why not simply add together all the PA's from the 11 starting players from both teams and calculate the games from there?
Also not perfect but at least way better then by reps.
Maybe game speed will be a little slower this way, but the way like it is now is cheating!!!

One question: What happens when you view Chelsea's matches? (if you would happen to have the time and willpower to do so)
You can run them at fastest speed to save time, but if then still they manage to produce a good season with crap players and high rep, then i am seriously disappointed.

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 12:56
So, it's Xmas day. I should be spending the time with my family. Instead, I'm on here, looking at another "experiment" and demands for SI to answer in capital letters.

The original poster has run an experiment, but I don't know what parameters have been used. So I've restarted the same experiment and will report back on findins whilst they come in.

What I have done, for the record, is thus.

I've moved all Chelsea players with current ability of more than 85 to Millwall, along with Jose Mourinho (reasons for this below) and installed Avram Grant as Chelsea manager.

I have given Chelsea -£50m, to stop them being able to buy in lots of players. This negative amount gets wiped out pretty much straight away by season ticket revenues, but they still have a tiny transfer budget.

I have given Millwall £30m, so that they are able to pay their wage bill for a while.

I have turned up the full match engine for all matches, apart from reserves, U18's and internationals. This is the only "true" test, on whether this has an affect on the game that you are playing, as it's how the league would be if you were playing in it.

To ensure that it is working in the same way as the game would be for a club that you were managing, I've taken over as Derby manager (in the Prem) and Cheltenham (in League One) and gone on holiday with both teams.

I've moved Mourinho to Millwall because he is used to managing the kinds of players now at Millwall. As we've all seen over many years of football, many managers can't handle "top" players, so those players don't play to their full potential.

I will report back on the progress of this test every couple of months of ingame time. I would appreciate if others can wait until the experiment is finalised before commenting further on this.

As it's taken me a while to type this up, the first results will follow soon. I'll also learn how to use imageshack to put some screenshots up http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Happy Mince Pie day to all, even those who have stopped me from spending time with my family on this one day of the year when work really should come second.

Rcjuk
25-12-2007, 13:08
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 13:10
Please note that I have NOT touched the reputation (which someone just asked me about on MSN) for either side.

As of 12th September

Chelsea - 6 matches played. 0 wins. 0 goals scored. 31 goals against. This includes a 9-0 loss against Man Utd in the community shield, and a 11-0 loss against Arsenal.

Milwall - 7 matches played. 7 wins. 36 goals scored. 0 goals against. This includes an 8-0 win against Oldham, 7-0 against Bournemouth, and 6-0 against Leeds.

Screenshots are uploading as I type. Will post those links, along with the next set of results, once I get to Xmas in the game.

Rcjuk - why the sad face?

RSCA4Ever
25-12-2007, 13:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
So, it's Xmas day. I should be spending the time with my family. Instead, I'm on here, looking at another "experiment" and demands for SI to answer in capital letters.

The original poster has run an experiment, but I don't know what parameters have been used. So I've restarted the same experiment and will report back on findins whilst they come in.

What I have done, for the record, is thus.

I've moved all Chelsea players with current ability of more than 85 to Millwall, along with Jose Mourinho (reasons for this below) and installed Avram Grant as Chelsea manager.

I have given Chelsea -£50m, to stop them being able to buy in lots of players. This negative amount gets wiped out pretty much straight away by season ticket revenues, but they still have a tiny transfer budget.

I have given Millwall £30m, so that they are able to pay their wage bill for a while.

I have turned up the full match engine for all matches, apart from reserves, U18's and internationals. This is the only "true" test, on whether this has an affect on the game that you are playing, as it's how the league would be if you were playing in it.

To ensure that it is working in the same way as the game would be for a club that you were managing, I've taken over as Derby manager (in the Prem) and Cheltenham (in League One) and gone on holiday with both teams.

I've moved Mourinho to Millwall because he is used to managing the kinds of players now at Millwall. As we've all seen over many years of football, many managers can't handle "top" players, so those players don't play to their full potential.

I will report back on the progress of this test every couple of months of ingame time. I would appreciate if others can wait until the experiment is finalised before commenting further on this.

As it's taken me a while to type this up, the first results will follow soon. I'll also learn how to use imageshack to put some screenshots up http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Happy Mince Pie day to all, even those who have stopped me from spending time with my family on this one day of the year when work really should come second. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG Miles, i never expected anyone from SI on this day actually testing this! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
You workaholic! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Merry Christmas to you to!

Ste123
25-12-2007, 13:19
*waits for the results*

Miles go get a drink and spend time with ur family.

Merry Christmas

Kristian
25-12-2007, 13:19
Miles, though their are serious problems with the FM08 match engine (IMO, and stated many times!) I don't think anyone could seriously expect or wish that you would be working on this today.

My advice (for what little it's worth): Switch PC off, go see family, eat turkey sandwiches and then when you're back at work get the team back doing what you do best rather than reacting to slightly ridiculous "proofs" on the forum.

All the best for 2008 to yourself, your family and all at SI http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

jase19
25-12-2007, 13:26
Miles, put the keyboard down and go spend time with your family. this thread can wait until tomorrow, surely.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 13:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Please note that I have NOT touched the reputation (which someone just asked me about on MSN) for either side.

As of 12th September

Chelsea - 6 matches played. 0 wins. 0 goals scored. 31 goals against. This includes a 9-0 loss against Man Utd in the community shield, and a 11-0 loss against Arsenal.

Milwall - 7 matches played. 7 wins. 36 goals scored. 0 goals against. This includes an 8-0 win against Oldham, 7-0 against Bournemouth, and 6-0 against Leeds.

Screenshots are uploading as I type. Will post those links, along with the next set of results, once I get to Xmas in the game.

Rcjuk - why the sad face? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am more than glad to provide the database and the save game for all that I have done with the editor.

arrogantio
25-12-2007, 13:36
Now that's dedication from Miles...

Miles' initial results are more consistent with the results of other AI experiments than the original posters'.

Anyway, reputation should affect the outcome of a match - it has a big impact on tactical decisions. Essentially the original experiment, even if it was run with the correct match engine detail settings, is based around unrealistic parameters: opposition managers and players still think that a decimated Chelsea squad is world class and a Millwall Allstars XI is average. If everyone involved persisted with this blinkered view all the way through the season, then I think it's quite plausible that Millwall would win promotion without ever looking a class above the rest of the division and Chelsea's much-feared youths would scrape enough points together to survive relegation.

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 13:43
First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil (http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img176/9057/1198614584g90.smil)

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...

Ste123 - I've left my family at my Sisters house, so am back to do this now...

Kristian - this test is nothing to do with the match engine.

Jase19 - to be honest, I don't think it can be left til tomorrow. The more things like this spring up, the more negativity is spread, and I can't leave it unanswered.

Afaern - not needed, but thanks for the offer. I think I know where you've gone "wrong" with your experiment as a user would play the game, and that is that your detail settings are low to non-existant for inactive leagues, and you haven't added a manager in. Therefore all of your matches will have bypassed the match engine, only using the quick match engine which is used for inactive leagues. What you may have done with your experiment is show up some flaws in the quick match engine, but this would have no affect whatsoever on someone playing the game, as all of the matches in the division that they are playing in, and all the competitions that the team they are managing are playing in, would be using the full match engine to play out the matches.

It certainly hasn't proved anything with regards on why you seem to be finding the game hard to play, as you aren't playing the game when you run your test! If my test results are different to yours (which they certainly seem to be at the moment), it will show that it is your team or tactics that is the problem for why you are finding it hard though!

arfaern
25-12-2007, 13:43
So basically you are saying, that manager relay on club reputation, rather the players quality to decide how to play against them?

Does not that seam wrong to you?

arfaern
25-12-2007, 13:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil (http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img176/9057/1198614584g90.smil)

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...

Ste123 - I've left my family at my Sisters house, so am back to do this now...

Kristian - this test is nothing to do with the match engine.

Jase19 - to be honest, I don't think it can be left til tomorrow. The more things like this spring up, the more negativity is spread, and I can't leave it unanswered.

Afaern - not needed, but thanks for the offer. I think I know where you've gone "wrong" with your experiment as a user would play the game, and that is that your detail settings are low to non-existant for inactive leagues, and you haven't added a manager in. Therefore all of your matches will have bypassed the match engine, only using the quick match engine which is used for inactive leagues. What you may have done with your experiment is show up some flaws in the quick match engine, but this would have no affect whatsoever on someone playing the game, as all of the matches in the division that they are playing in, and all the competitions that the team they are managing are playing in, would be using the full match engine to play out the matches.

It certainly hasn't proved anything with regards on why you seem to be finding the game hard to play, as you aren't playing the game when you run your test! If my test results are different to yours (which they certainly seem to be at the moment), it will show that it is your team or tactics that is the problem for why you are finding it hard though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't find the game especially difficult, and with some effort any human player can beat the game (win against AI managers).

I never claimed that the mistake was in the match engine, just that there was a problem with the game engine aka the game its self somewhere.

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 13:59
Arfaern - your test is flawed though if you've been playing it without full detail or managing a club in the league, as the league is inactive. So for someone playing the game, it has no bearing on the human manager, or any competitions that the human manager is playing in.

So your quote of "Finally I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics, it the game" will, if my test carries on in the way it is, then it will disprove your conspiracy theory.

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 14:06
It's Xmas Day 2007 in this bizarre experiment.

Millwall
21 matches played in the league.
20 wins.
1 draw (a 0-0 with Leyton Orient).
102 goals for
3 goals against
Drogba has 38 goals in 24 matches, and an average rating of 8.54
They lost to Spurs (away) in the League Cup 3rd round.


Chelsea
18 matches played in the league
0 wins
1 draw (0-0 against Portsmouth)
1 goal for
77 goals against
Knocked out of the league cup by Wolves
Champions League record - pld 6, lost 6, -27 goal difference

Screenshots are a coming. I'll then let it run to the end of the season.

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 14:19
Screenshots for above

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chelseachelseafixtures2ah8.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=millwallmillwallfixtureur8.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=Coca-ColaLeague1LeagueTable-2.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=EnglishPremier...ionLeagueTable-2.png (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=EnglishPremierDivisionLeagueTable-2.png)

TGD
25-12-2007, 14:22
lol Miles silences the critics. I never doubted fm http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

marx
25-12-2007, 14:23
in meantime i've repeated my test, but this time I've managed Arsenal personally and went to holiday. After lowering reputation at the end of the season Arsenal has finished second.
So for me it proves 3 things:
1)Reputation is important for background matches (being on holidays cause game engine to play "by reputation" all games with teams I'm not managing)
2)Reputation is not very important for matches when you manage team (even if you are in holiday mode). That's why holiday mode lasts much longer when i'm managing team vs when i'm not managing any team)
3)MJ i really workaholic

RTHerringbone
25-12-2007, 14:25
Have skimmed through the thread and Miles' recent posts. Surely he has proven that when the game is processing in "normal" detail - i.e. the level at which users play the game, that it is the ability of the players, rather than the reputation of the club, which drives the results? If so, lets all get back to Christmas Day and stop twatting about.

Gundo
25-12-2007, 14:29
If I understand it this is just ridiculous. arfaern you ticked non-full match engine or what ever it's called, what did you expect to happen? These basic settings are used to speed up the game, so the player/team swaps you made in the editor aren't going to be recognized or taken into account as such.

The basic settings are used to speed up the game, so you can't expect to see full outcomes and for the game to take all of your changes into account.

This is NO reliable experiment on such detail levels you set imo. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif


Miles Go get your glass of sherry and turkey sandwich that awaits you. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Merry Christmas All! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gundo
25-12-2007, 14:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:
in meantime i've repeated my test, but this time I've managed Arsenal personally and went to holiday. After lowering reputation at the end of the season Arsenal has finished second.
So for me it proves 3 things:
1)Reputation is important for background matches (being on holidays cause game engine to play "by reputation" all games with teams I'm not managing)
2)Reputation is not very important for matches when you manage team (even if you are in holiday mode). That's why holiday mode lasts much longer when i'm managing team vs when i'm not managing any team)
3)MJ i really workaholic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nail and head. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Good work. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

ViG1980
25-12-2007, 14:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jase19:
i'm no saying these arguments aren't valid

but i have got bath city to the championship with a rep of like 3500 and i'm near top half in february (sitting 11th).

granted it was a struggle and i usually snuck in on playoffs and was lucky to get good loan players, but thats just it... i think my loaners did more than my crappy rep ever did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is different at this is a human managing. We are looking at CPU teams only...

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 14:34
Marx - with point 1, if you are managing any team in the league that you are in (not just the team you are testing), or you have full match on, then you the full match engine is used.

RTHerringone - I agree http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But will carry on til the end of the season as the original poster did.

Gundo - the mince pies are about to go into the oven, and I have some nice vanilla cream to put on them. They should be ready just after the experiment finishes.

And Merry/Happy non denominational festive season to all, whatever festival you may be celebrating at this time of year, have just celebrated, or are just about to celebrate http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 14:39
Vig2001 - You aren't. With experiments like this one, you are looking at CPU teams in inactive leagues and competitions, only, which has no bearing on people playing the game. The key word there is "playing", as that is what is meant to be done with computer games.

Any competition that isn't being played in (in other words, doesn't have a human manager in) is inactive, unless full match detail is turned on for that competition.

RSCA4Ever
25-12-2007, 14:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil (http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img176/9057/1198614584g90.smil)

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please have a great vacation then, one with no internet connections and no phones! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks for testing good to see it doesn't affect the league i play in, so i am very happy for that, because when i first saw this thread i felt a bit disappointed if games would had been decided by reps.

I can see now why you wanted to test this today.
In fact i can understand how it must come over sometimes reading negative posts.
Maybe we all expect perfect games that would be as close to reality as possible.
But we do forget one thing, not one computer game will ever be reality! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't have a negative view at all towards the game.
The AI was never this challenging as now imo, and also i do like the new features.
Even the strict board is more realistic then ever, unlike what others say!
In Belgium in the 90's we had a manager (Luca Peruzovic) sacked at mid season, while he was leading the table with 11 points with Anderlecht, because he didn't produce attacking football.
I'm a Anderlecht fan for 30 years now and i think ive seen about 25 different managers there during that time, even while we win titles on regular basis.
07 "maybe" had a better match engine on some parts but 08 certainly has some improvements as well.
Point is FM is still the king of management games! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Arfaern you almost gave me a heart attack today! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Just kidding, but i do got disappointed when i first saw your test.
BTW in above i speak about negative posts, with that i don't mean this one. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Merry Christmas all!

arfaern
25-12-2007, 14:51
Ok rerun the same thing with full match detail, and managers in both those leagues, and produced more or less same results as you did, Chelsea managed to get a few draws, Millwall draw also a few etc.

But as I can see from the posts here most of the users don't know what is or where to set the match detail level.

Since the match detail level will be full only in the competitions where you are managing a club, and set by default to none for all else.

So if you pick England, Italy, Spain and France as playable leagues, and manage ex. Man Utd. only English Premiership will be on Full detail by default, all else will be on none.

Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct?

RTHerringbone
25-12-2007, 14:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
Ok rerun the same thing with full match detail, and managers in both those leagues, and produced more or less same results as you did, Chelsea managed to get a few draws, Millwall draw also a few etc.

But as I can see from the posts here most of the users don't know what is or where to set the match detail level.

Since the match detail level will be full only in the competitions where you are managing a club, and set by default to none for all else.

So if you pick England, Italy, Spain and France as playable leagues, and manage ex. Man Utd. only English Premiership will be on Full detail by default, all else will be on none.

Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because those teams will typically have the better players and so will be more likely to win. If you manage in Spain / Italy, you'll see that Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U are near the top of the English Premier League. That's not because they have "somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league", it's because they have the best players.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 14:59
That is a big if.

Because if you progress with game far enough into 2015+ seasons, those clubs will be full of young/new/purchased players which might not be at the top of their rank.

RTHerringbone
25-12-2007, 15:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
That is a big if.

Because if you progress with game far enough into 2015+ seasons, those clubs will be full of young/new/purchased players which might not be at the top of their rank. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point. On that basis, the experiment would need to continue for 10+ seasons on teams with unedited reputations to see how things pan out.

arfaern
25-12-2007, 15:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Vig2001 - You aren't. With experiments like this one, you are looking at CPU teams in inactive leagues and competitions, only, which has no bearing on people playing the game. The key word there is "playing", as that is what is meant to be done with computer games.

Any competition that isn't being played in (in other words, doesn't have a human manager in) is inactive, unless full match detail is turned on for that competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you are saying that if played in full match detail the game will use the match engine used to calculate human games, but if played with none detail the game will use some sort of a quick match engine?

Then that means that the quick match engine can return somewhat inaccurate results.

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 15:03
arfraen - I don't know if that's correct, but your experiment would suggest that that could be the case if you were trying to break the game, rather than play it in the way it was intended.

As I've said above, it wouldn't affect any human manager playing the game, which is what the game is designed for (playing). So if you moved from England to Spain, then the league you moved to would become the active one by default.

As for saying that users don't know where that option is, it was a feature added some time ago, and should be detailed in the manual. It's listed under preferences.

Do you mind if I change the subject to add "(conspiracy theory disproved on page 2 of the thread)" please?

arfaern
25-12-2007, 15:10
No I don't mind simply because you have disapproved me.

I wasn't trying to break the game, the thing just came to mind to try and see what will happen.

I was not aware that selecting full/none detail on the league could have such an impact on the performance of the teams.

If you look at my original post (using none detail) and your result (using full details) you will see that the team performance is more than a mile apart.

This post was not started as a "conspiracy theory" post, rather just posting my surprise to the result provided by the game

I would like to apologize to the SI team, for making such a racket on Xmas.

VonBlade
25-12-2007, 15:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Marx - with point 1, if you are managing any team in the league that you are in (not just the team you are testing), or you have full match on, then you the full match engine is used. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhh. That explains it. I thought I was running on Full Detail, and the team I'd added in a Bandits-minus-superplayers way were just languishing in the Conference for twenty years. Then I upped their rep to 8000 and they got promoted 4 years straight barely losing a game.

Glad it's because I was playing in the Premiership and they were lower league, rather than Rep being the ridiculously huge factor I thought it was http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Perhaps a little toning down of the rep-factor in not-full-detail games might help the leagues have some variety in longer term games and aid the cup-upsets in future?

But go and eat a pie already Miles. It's Xmas http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 15:19
arfraen - where you talk about progressing into 2015+, you'll find that some of the teams are as strong as they were, others won't be, much like real life. 15 years ago.

This is correct as per real life. In 1992/93, Norwich, QPR & Sheffield Wednesday all finished in the top 7.

As for your other point, the quick match engine used for inactive leagues does not affect the human manager in any way.

Miles Jacobson
25-12-2007, 15:25
OK - season has ended.

Chelsea
Relegated in 20th spot (bottom of the league)
New points record, with 3 points in the whole season (3 draws)
10 goals scored, 146 against.
Average ratings were between 5.1 & 6.04
Top scorer had 3 goals
They did get a win - beating Peterborough in the FA Cup 3rd round.

Millwall
Won league 1
45 wins and 1 draw = 116 points
Goal difference of + 214, (for 224, against 10)
Drogba - pl 53, goals 85, average rating 8.49
Won - Johnstone's Paint Trophy
FA Cup - lost to Newcastle in the 6th round.

Sad Git
25-12-2007, 15:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Happy Mince Pie day to all, even those who have stopped me from spending time with my family on this one day of the year when work really should come second. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm amazed, I never realised we had the power to force the MD to come here and run tests for us whenever we have a big question.

Can someone come up with a really nasty challenge for him to do on Boxing Day as well? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ViG1980
25-12-2007, 16:23
Thanks Miles. MD not expected to do this sort of thing but you have...

Merry Christmas.

Raapy
25-12-2007, 16:24
Considering all this, perhaps what's really wrong is how a club's reputation is calculated? Perhaps the quality of the players in the club( or reputation of the players ) should have a much bigger impact on the actual reputation of the club?

Certainly if C.Ronaldo and Rooney were to go to Leeds, in the real world, that would immediately boost Leeds reputation by an enourmous amount.

RSCA4Ever
25-12-2007, 16:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Raapy:
Considering all this, perhaps what's really wrong is how a club's reputation is calculated? Perhaps the quality of the players in the club( or reputation of the players ) should have a much bigger impact on the actual reputation of the club?

Certainly if C.Ronaldo and Rooney were to go to Leeds, in the real world, that would immediately boost Leeds reputation by an enourmous amount. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Before Leeds would ever get a hold of them, i bet their rep would already have to be high, otherwise they wouldn't be interested at all. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Greg Andrade
25-12-2007, 16:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
OK - season has ended.

Chelsea
Relegated in 20th spot (bottom of the league)
New points record, with 3 points in the whole season (3 draws)
10 goals scored, 146 against.
Average ratings were between 5.1 & 6.04
Top scorer had 3 goals
They did get a win - beating Peterborough in the FA Cup 3rd round.

Millwall
Won league 1
45 wins and 1 draw = 116 points
Goal difference of + 214, (for 224, against 10)
Drogba - pl 53, goals 85, average rating 8.49
Won - Johnstone's Paint Trophy
FA Cup - lost to Newcastle in the 6th round. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, this experiment seems only to have solidified my concerns. I haven't had any complaints about the difficulty of the game, but I play the game with no detail turned on for any competition. That improves game speed and allows me to use a much larger database.

But, Miles, your revelation about the match detail means that we all suffer a major loss in realism if we turn off full detail. THAT has to be why the original results were achieved. And that doesn't make me feel much better at this point.

It's nice that you could use conditions that avoided the problem, but your statement about match detail seems to prove the original point, which is that club reputation has a huge impact on match results. Granted, it's only if you don't use full detail, but many of us do not. So that means our saved games could end up with the same clubs being crap or great for decades.

Knowles
25-12-2007, 16:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RSCA4Ever:
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Results calculated by reputation!!! This really disappoints me! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
That is such an unrealistic approach to do, because injuries or lack of quality players won't matter at all then for big teams.
This should have been done completely different.Why not simply add together all the PA's from the 11 starting players from both teams and calculate the games from there?
Maybe game speed will be a little slower this way, but the way like it is now is cheating!!!

One question: What happens when you view Chelsea's matches? (if you would happen to have the time and willpower to do so)
You can run them at fastest speed to save time, but if then still they manage to produce a good season with crap players and high rep, then i am seriously disappointed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definetelly one of the stupidest ideas I have ever heard.

James.Clench
25-12-2007, 16:55
Its fair enough that you disproved this guys test but I wonder why you changed the Topic headline instead of simply closing the thread? like you did with that thread about changing players position?

Are you diverting a bit of attention maybe from the other topics which highlight the flaws, such as;

1. The Closing down bug
2. Super keepers
3. Shots on target/goals ratio bug
4. Poor regens

Any comment?

DS
25-12-2007, 16:56
Miles - all your test showed is what I said from the start. When matches are played in full detail it gives proper realistic results. But when they are played with no detail the results are somewhat based on reputation. FM is supposed to be a realistic football simulator so it is worrying but also I understand the need for it. If more complex calculations were done then the games would take longer to run which is not what anyone wants. So I guess we will have to live with it for now. In a few years when there are much better computers and everyone can zoom through the proper detail matches then hopefully this can be changed.

Anyway thanks for taking time from Christmas to help with this issue. Just as I was losing hope in SI.

Jumbalumba
25-12-2007, 17:44
What? I thought it was always known that results were determined a large part by reputation and that proper results only come about with full detail (even since I started playing in FM 2005 anyways; although this detail feature only recently came in).

knap
25-12-2007, 18:07
As a footnote I increased CA and PA of Spurs squad, no drop from GS, and won PL in holiday mode std tactics.

I've also changed player positions (Keane as GK, Robbo up front and Berbs CB etc) and they lost in all games played like this, maybe not by as many as expected, but outside normal gameplay, so not worth a season testing.

I assume from above that "on holiday" testing does produce realistic results with regard to tactics testing?

Silver Foxx
25-12-2007, 18:13
Well I thankyou Miles on this great reply to this thread on Christmas Day, and it looks like you have dissproved this theory. Thanks for your time on this, o and before I forget "Merry Christmas" and a "Happy New Year" !!

Dimony
25-12-2007, 18:18
Miles, you are a ****ing star.

Mikealdo
25-12-2007, 18:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
Its fair enough that you disproved this guys test but I wonder why you changed the Topic headline instead of simply closing the thread? like you did with that thread about changing players position?

Are you diverting a bit of attention maybe from the other topics which highlight the flaws, such as;

1. The Closing down bug
2. Super keepers
3. Shots on target/goals ratio bug
4. Poor regens

Any comment? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Miles has the bit firly between his teeth now and I fully expect him to return soon and test the shots/goals ratio bug with equal vigor http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*sprinkles with sarcasm*

heathxxx
25-12-2007, 18:39
Forgive me for thinking that the general point of this post has missed "the" point entirely. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif of this "simulation" of the football world.

I'm sure I'll get the usual responses such as "fanboy" etc, etc... but here goes...

This game, attempts to reflect football management in as realistic a manner as possible, but when all is said and done - it's exactly that - a representation.

To acheive some of that realism, it's obvious that teams need to be "ranked", by means of the reputation method currently used, which is clear in the editor.

Now for me, this seems to be pretty integral in ensuring that the clubs throughout all levels, over the course of a number of seasons, maintain a pretty realistic standing.

The use of such a method, and I'm sure SI will correct me if I'm wrong here, ensures that after a number of seasons, you don't suddenly find that Chelsea - for example - slide down a league or two, just because a number of their players have left the club. Their "reputation" allows them to generate good quality regens and to sign other new players. Therefore the equilibrium is maintained.

This as a management simulation, is possibly the only one that uses such a "ranking" or "reputation" system for clubs, unlike most, if any, of the other football management games on the market today. This system I believe, ensures that it's not just a case of having the best players that dictates the flow of the game, as is often the case with other management sims.

I would point here at older (and some current) games such as Premier Manager as a loose example. The relative positions of clubs was based entirely on the quality of the players at the game's offset. Therefore, games such as this are very easy to "win" because you would just sign the best players, then irrespective of tactics, or the club, you would "win". After a number of seasons, you would see generally unrecognisable and unrealistic league formations, such as say, an AI run Carlisle as Premier champions. Liverpool in League 2.

This game is very complex indeed. Having played each version from the very first CM - I'm pleased with the way CM & FM have developed over the years. Of course, it's easier to pick holes in such a complex product, because there are always potentially more "issues" to find.

When you're running "tests" such as this thread is looking at, you're creating whole new variables that were not intended in the original scripting of the game. Therefore, yes, you're going to see some strange and unusual outcomes, but that is all they are and don't really objectively show a flawed product.

I am aware, through personal experience, and that of others on the forums, of bugs, flaws and data issues in the game, as there have been in the previous releases. Yes, at times they can be frustrating, such as the Spanish player registration bug is for me. Ultimately though, SI as a company do actually seem to take note of those who post clearly, concisely and objectively - then respond in due time with patches to rectify the problems, along with relevant comments.

I have always liked the fact that SI include the editor as part of their release these days, as "knowing" their product, I find I can remedy alot of minor issues myself regarding data discrepencies. I am though, beginning to think that they would actually be better not shipping the game with an editor for future releases, as "conspiricy" theory posts such as this and many others are gradually taking over the forums.

Inevitably, people will go back to using 3rd party editors as of old. So if that changes anything here in the forums would remain to be seen.

With respect to the quality of this game as a product, the only issues that affect my own playability of FM2008 are as follows.

1) Data regarding the "loan" situation at Manchester United versus the financial model.

There is clearly an issue with the financial model which i'm quite sure SI are fully aware of . This is in respect of the fact that many people experience Manchester United entering financial difficulty after a number of seasons, because the "loans" set, far outweigh the "income" that Manchester United "realistically" generate.

This is in fact easily self-rectified with the use of the editor, to ensure the balance is correct and more realistic. I am also sure that SI will be looking at the financial model of the game more closely. Bear in mind insofar as realism is concerned, that the information they will have when making the game, will not be 100% accurate. Do you honestly think that every football club contained in the game would "freely" divulge their financial activity to aid the making of a computer game!?!

2) The Spanish player registration issue

Unfortunately I've not found a solution to this via the editor, but given this has been raised objectively in previous posts on the forum, am satisfied with responses from SI to acknowledge the matter, that it will be solved in the next patch.

3) The match engine - 1-on-1, etc, etc...

This is a very complex side of the game since it's introduction, as I'm quite sure that it has millions of variables possible. I am of course referring to the "visual" match engine, rather than the "game" engine.

Prior to the release of the 2d match engine, I don't recall seeing posts on the forums complaining about the match engine. That being said, I think that the ability to "view" games is a feature many players of this game enjoy greatly. There are flaws which are clearly apparent, yet I personally don't think that they have an overbearing effect on the game as a whole, once you know how to work with them. Again, this is something I am satisfied that will develop further over patch releases and new game releases.

4) Tactical issues

There is no longer a "killer" tactic...

The pursuit of such a tactic nowadays is futile, as improvements across the board have been made to the match and game engine to avoid these "exploits".

There are however, some tactics that work better than others - just as in real life. I find this to be a true reflection of modern football, as if all tactics in the game worked on a par, what would be the point of using different tactics in the first place?

The game has in fact become more difficult with respect to the tactical imput required, by us as gameplayers, to influence the outcome of matchens. This for me is something to be applauded, not flamed.

5) Results Generated By AI in non-viewed matches

The issue in this thread. I would refer back to the point I made regarding the ranking system in place that preserves the "continuity" of clubs, over a number of seasons, as they should be.

If this aspect of the game is as seriously flawed as posters are suggesting, with the AI over-compensating, cheating, against the human user, whatever you want to call it - why then is it still possible to play a game, taking a club from the bottom of the ladder, up to the very top of the ladder. There is countless proof of this within the forums for all to see. If the AI was as over-compensating for the bigger clubs as is suggested, why have I and countless others, managed to take teams from Blue Square North/South up to the Premiership, albeit over a lengthy number of seasons and win major trophies??? Surely if what people are suggesting is true, then this would be impossible.


Phew... my longest post I believe http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

In short, why not actually try playing the game, if possible, for more than a season, without being in holiday mode, or using the editor. You never know, you might find theres an excellent game here http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Lyssien
25-12-2007, 18:48
Miles, you are my hero. Respect.

CowRonaldo
25-12-2007, 19:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 4) Tactical issues

There is no longer a "killer" tactic...

The pursuit of such a tactic nowadays is futile, as improvements across the board have been made to the match and game engine to avoid these "exploits".

There are however, some tactics that work better than others - just as in real life. I find this to be a true reflection of modern football, as if all tactics in the game worked on a par, what would be the point of using different tactics in the first place?

The game has in fact become more difficult with respect to the tactical imput required, by us as gameplayers, to influence the outcome of matchens. This for me is something to be applauded, not flamed.

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well lots of people have been noticing 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 tactics work much better than a 4-4-2 tactic.

Perhaps it needs to be balanced considering 4-4-2 is a very successful tactic in real life.

heathxxx
25-12-2007, 19:20
I'm using a more orthodox 4-4-2 that works well. The Fiora2 formation that's been posted on the forums.

Like any tactics, fan made or generic, they need tweeking to suit players strengths and weakness'.

People always have their own preferences with tactics, but with a little experimentation, it's not too difficult to come up with a few that do ok. I think alot of people lack the patience...

...though there are some people with too much patience and time on their hands!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

snootyjim
25-12-2007, 19:22
Comical thread, gave me some much needed entertainment this morning after a pretty naf Xmas Day.

Just goes to prove that SI are completely unique in terms of game companies out there today, checking out the forums to participate in a bizarre test to back up their match engine on 25th December of all days... pity it had to happen, but well worth it all the same for us lot

Merry Xmas everybody

snootyjim
25-12-2007, 19:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:
1) Data regarding the "loan" situation at Manchester United versus the financial model.

There is clearly an issue with the financial model which i'm quite sure SI are fully aware of . This is in respect of the fact that many people experience Manchester United entering financial difficulty after a number of seasons, because the "loans" set, far outweigh the "income" that Manchester United "realistically" generate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a Manchester United fan, I'd just like to point out that the situation you mention is a very realistic one, that arose as a direct result of the Malcolm Glazer takeover. There has been concern for a good while over the sustainability of Manchester United's finances, in reference to our enormous debt. It's sad, but true.

As for the other bugs you refer to, I know nothing about them. However for this one, I think SI might be spot on http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

snootyjim
25-12-2007, 19:50
Fair enough, never played a Utd game long enough to find out http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sad Git
25-12-2007, 20:27
I'm somewhat unconvinced by Miles' argument that the background match engine "doesn't affect the user in any way". Of course it does, EVERYTHING in the game affects the user! Anything that means the game world isn't being convincingly rendered can potentially cause problems down the line. You might take over a club in a background league, and switch the league into the foreground. You might sign a player based on his performances in a background league. You might play against clubs that have been promoted or relegated from a background division. I can think of literally dozens of other examples.

Call me stupid but I don't quite understand why the background match engine uses team Reputation to calculate results. Why not use squad CA? I don't honestly see why it should take any longer that way, and it's overwhelmingly the players that decide the outcomes of football matches, Reputation counts for nothing. (See England, Newcastle, Spurs, etc etc.)

Themistofelis
25-12-2007, 21:27
You know you can use FMM trainer to run tests on your team /or an AI one; 20 games as a reputation 1000 club vs 20 games as a reputation 10000 , same players , same formations , same morale , same opposition (fmm removes bans, injuries and keeps morale at top).
Sorry i can not stand playing 40 matches in fm08 to run the test myself.

25-12-2007, 23:24
Call me stupid but I don't quite understand why the background match engine uses team Reputation to calculate results. Why not use squad CA? I don't honestly see why it should take any longer that way, and it's overwhelmingly the players that decide the outcomes of football matches, Reputation counts for nothing. (See England, Newcastle, Spurs, etc etc.)[/QUOTE]

lol didnt england flopped too even when the CA of their players are high?

delibey
26-12-2007, 03:10
So there is a "quick match engine" after all. We can only presume it's there to make the game go faster, or rather not slower. We would all be ****ed off if leagues we aren't in slow down our game but it's my personal opinion that this current set-up is not a realistic reflection of real life. Well it is in some way, the bigger teams succeed and worse teams stay where they should. But still this is a simulation. If a team is not made up of good players, they shouldn't win on a regular basis, no matter what their reputation is. It can be argued that a high rep club will always have good players but what if any high rep club sells one of its best players? I'd expect to see some sort of change in the team's performance.

Doesn't this system also hinder young promising players coming through a worse club's ranks and shining there? They will be there but their club won't win games(to simplify). If a player isn't doing anything extraordinary he won't be noticed by bigger clubs. This relates to the transfer system. The AI shouldn't notice and buy youngsters with potential for no reason at all. They should perform and be noticed, not transferred suddenly to a big club 6th Sense style.

PS: Quick, someone make a thread "proving" the one-on-one problem. We'll send MJ into another testing frenzy, only to have him somehow prove we don't exist.http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kristian
26-12-2007, 03:18
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Kristian - this test is nothing to do with the match engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry Miles, just to be clear I do realise this thread was not to do with the match engine, my point simply being that no matter how flawed I believe the match engine to be I still wouldn't expect that you guys would be working on it on Xmas day.

The match engine is just my own particular source of frustration with the game.

marx
26-12-2007, 03:31
the only thing we have learned from this thread is that reputation is main factor to determine matches in inactive leagues.

Jimbokav1971
26-12-2007, 03:47
Excellent response from Miles http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

SI have received an enormous amount of bad press on thses forums in the recent past. I would hope that this thread will silenece a lot of the negative destructive posting that has recently become this forums nor, (but I am not that naive).

I think it is phenomnal that SI not only responded to this thread on Christmas Day, but also ran a complete test, posted and explained it's correct findings and in great detail explained why the original poster was mistaken.

By the way, well done to arfaern for caring enough to run the tests in the first place, and also for admitting when he was wrong. Very refreswhing in here http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

It is this sort of dedication that has seen FM be the continued market leader in it's field. There is no doubt that FM08 has some serious issues, but with such a passionlate team behind the running of it, there is every chance that recent mistakes will not only be rectified, but also hopefully not repeated.

This thread is an outstanding advert for the SI team.

Well played http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

Gibbo84
26-12-2007, 03:56
This thread reminds me, I must go on the Sonic the Hedgehog website later and complain that hedgehogs are in fact not blue as the game insists. I have conducted numerous tests and i have found that hedgehogs tend to be of a browny colour. My current test involves counting on a numerical basis the number of tails the average fox possesses. I will keep you informed. Sega have a lot to answer for.

heathxxx
26-12-2007, 04:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by davidbowie:
As an MU fan, and someone who worked on the loan issue itself (I have a thread somewhere in the data forum), as well as having played a long term MU save in 08, the loan is realistic enough, and is payable as long as your remain successful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree the loan figures quoted and used are realistic enough, yet I think what I'm pointing at is that the financial models used are possibly flawed.

In my own save, I'm not actually playing as Man Utd, but I keep an eye on things. Their finances are rated "Insecure" near the end of season 1, dispite being in the top 3 in the league, in Champions League semis.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but realistically, the revenue from the Champions League alone would be sufficient to cover the "loan" repayments.

Of course, there may be a lot more to the purchase by the Glaziers than meets the eye IRL, but I just can't see Manchester United struggling to the extent that they do in the game, without something being leaked to the media. For one thing, there's no way the financial backers would just allow the club to run into administration. They would more likely invest further in order to secure the continued success of their "investments" on and off the field.

To clarify - I believe the financial models in the game need to be updated, not the actual "loan" situation at Man Utd, which appears to be realistic enough. A thankless task at best in my opinion, as I doubt that SI would ever have access freely, to such sensitive financial issues, from all the clubs featured.

I normally just make a few slight tweeks in the editor to make, what I feel, is a more appropriate "balance" to the loan debt versus the financial model.

heathxxx
26-12-2007, 04:47
Must add, regardless of this and other "issues". I find FM2008 totally playable and thoroughly addictive and entertaining.

I will certainly continue to buy the series, as I'm continually impressed with the improvements that are made.

MixitupMixitdictator
26-12-2007, 07:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Must add, regardless of this and other "issues". I find FM2008 totally playable and thoroughly addictive and entertaining. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree with this, but one thing i have too say i have a problem with the next patch is due for Feb. The game has been released nigh on 5months by the time we get this and it's only another 7/8 months before the new game comes out. This too me is unacceptable, nearly as much incomplete game time as complete game time.

But then i don't have too much of a problem with the current game.

Law_Man
26-12-2007, 07:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but realistically, the revenue from the Champions League alone would be sufficient to cover the "loan" repayments.

Of course, there may be a lot more to the purchase by the Glaziers than meets the eye IRL, but I just can't see Manchester United struggling to the extent that they do in the game, without something being leaked to the media. For one thing, there's no way the financial backers would just allow the club to run into administration. They would more likely invest further in order to secure the continued success of their "investments" on and off the field.

To clarify - I believe the financial models in the game need to be updated, not the actual "loan" situation at Man Utd, which appears to be realistic enough. A thankless task at best in my opinion, as I doubt that SI would ever have access freely, to such sensitive financial issues, from all the clubs featured.

I normally just make a few slight tweeks in the editor to make, what I feel, is a more appropriate "balance" to the loan debt versus the financial model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heathxxx you dirty cheat http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol

But to correct you if you're wrong: it has been widely reported that to service the debt (i.e. simply meet interest repayments as they fall due, without actually repaying any of the capital amount) is costing Man Utd £60-£80m per year.

If Man Utd remain successful domestically and in the champions league plus sponsorship and merchandising and gate receipts they should be able to meet this, but with very little operating profit left over for player purchases. This is why Man Utd fans have doubtless been pleasantly surprised that the Glazier's got their wallet's out in the summer to fund the purchases of Nani, Hargreaves etc.

I posted in another thread on this issue:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Basically:

1) Man Utd was valued at about £500m at the time of the takeover

2) Glazers wanted to buy it.

3) They paid over the odds for it, and the price per shar they actually paid in fact valued the club at about £650m

4) The Glazers didn't have the cash to buy it, so they raised most of the £650m through loans.

5) Once they bought the club they de-listed it from the stock exchange and turned into a private company.

6) Then the Glazers simply transferred the massive debts they owed from themselves to the company.

**What this actually means is that Man United went from being one of the most profitable and debt-free football club's in the world to being about £600m in debt. So basically because of increased ticket prices and other merchandising price increases, the Man Unitd season ticket holders have essentially been forced to pay for the privilege of burdening their club with massive debt**

That said, season ticket prices etc are still much lower than the Arsenal's and Chelsea's of this world. It's not wonder at all that Arsenal's annual results this year have been so good! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RSCA4Ever
26-12-2007, 08:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Knowles:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RSCA4Ever:
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Results calculated by reputation!!! This really disappoints me! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
That is such an unrealistic approach to do, because injuries or lack of quality players won't matter at all then for big teams.
This should have been done completely different.Why not simply add together all the PA's from the 11 starting players from both teams and calculate the games from there?
Maybe game speed will be a little slower this way, but the way like it is now is cheating!!!

One question: What happens when you view Chelsea's matches? (if you would happen to have the time and willpower to do so)
You can run them at fastest speed to save time, but if then still they manage to produce a good season with crap players and high rep, then i am seriously disappointed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definetelly one of the stupidest ideas I have ever heard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't edit my quotes!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
You forgot the line "Also not perfect but at least way better then by reps."!

Maybe your expertise might bring up a much better idea, but since i don't see you give an alternative for the non detailed leagues i think calculating with the players their own stats is more honest then by club reps.

Miles clearly showed that in detailed leagues we don't have to worry about this at all, but for non detailed leagues this might be a good alternative imho.

!Steve1977
26-12-2007, 10:38
Well done Miles on disproving this 'critics'. Maybe if he spent more time reading the manual / changing tactics / working on training regimes, maybe after all that he would be better at the game and stop whining like a bitch.

I never bother to read too much into these posts such as 'my team is crap despite blah blah blah' because when starting a new game, you could have the worlds best players but because you are an unknown manager, the players arent going to play as good as they would if they had a manager who had plenty of experience and the players respected.

So a lot of time its just pent up teenagers who need to slip one off and are taking out their agression on this forum.

earmack
26-12-2007, 11:01
I don't like the way quick simulation works because at the end of the day I'm not going to run 200 leagues on full detail because I don't have the time machine required to acquire a quantum computer that could actually handle that ammount of processing. Its not a huge problem and I understand theres probably nothing SI can do differently but its painful having to chose which leagues get screwed by not being fully simulated.

Also, Miles does that MD stand for Managing Director? If so you've really got to learn to delegate http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

Merry HOLIDAYS.

SkidRo
26-12-2007, 11:04
well thanks to miles i am now going to run all leagues in full details just so i dont get some dodgy results and such in other leagues.

Kriss
26-12-2007, 11:29
Interesting thread, it would be wrong to knock the OP. His misconception was genuine and anyone with doubts should voice them on here.

I think the thread clarified some things very usefully too.

Don't be fooled into feeling sorry for Miles's sacrifice, he was also logged into FML while posting here.
He's sad in the nicest possible way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Neji
26-12-2007, 12:29
Miles just wanted to play FM. I can imagine it now - "can't spend time with you love, go work to do". Off he trotts to his computer and plays FM http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously, credit where credits due to both Miles and the OP. Admitting when you're wrong was something I didn't expect to see from the poster of a thread called 'Finally proved it, the game engine is bogus'. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

eXistenZ
26-12-2007, 12:36
I only have read the (original) title but anyway;

I think that if your (world-class) strikers need 15 chanches to score once and mediocre opponents score on an average 1/5, that's enough progg that the match engine is no good.

eXistenZ
26-12-2007, 12:36
enough proof*

So stupid we can't edit our own posts

ptakers
26-12-2007, 12:41
arfaern = pwned

dudester
26-12-2007, 12:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
Interesting thread, it would be wrong to knock the OP. His misconception was genuine and anyone with doubts should voice them on here.

I think the thread clarified some things very usefully too.

Don't be fooled into feeling sorry for Miles's sacrifice, he was also logged into FML while posting here.
He's sad in the nicest possible way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will there warnings packaged with FML that it could be dangerous to your health? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ml3js
26-12-2007, 13:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
I only have read the (original) title but anyway;

I think that if your (world-class) strikers need 15 chanches to score once and mediocre opponents score on an average 1/5, that's enough progg that the match engine is no good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have taken teams from Serie C2 to Serie A and into CL as well as from German Regionals to Bundesliga and CL and the whole time my strikers have regularly been scoring about 1 in 3 one-on-ones overall. Seems rather reasonable to me.

Miles: I'm impressed. If you care enough to do this I'm confident that you'll do your best to fix whatever other flaws you find and patch em us for us. Either way, its a great game and has occupied me more than it should http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JordanC
27-12-2007, 10:59
I actually covered this thread as part of my regular Thursday feature this week at GetSacked.Net. Check it out if you'd like:

http://blog.getsacked.net/2007/12/27/using-the-editor-t...ith-game-issues.aspx (http://blog.getsacked.net/2007/12/27/using-the-editor-to-experiment-with-game-issues.aspx)

gubbs
27-12-2007, 12:02
Miles, what spec box do you use for FM development and testing? I am guessing you have some sort of distributed network for rapid game result calculation?

Brian Rømer
27-12-2007, 12:31
Well, pardon me for posting something that might have been posted already (just cant read all the posts - too many of them).
But to me its obvious that changing the team rep. will affect the results. Here is my formular - its not Einstein, but still:
5 star player wants to play in 5 star club. If 5 star player plays in 1 star club, he will want to leave. And he probably has some "leave clause" and if he doesnt he will not give 100% on the field.
So a one star club with five star players will either lose the players or see them play bad. What if Cristiano Ronaldo had to play for Accrington or some club like that? would he want to leave? I think so.
If the club has players that are not motivated or lost their players, of course the club will not win games.

To me, that is not a bug, but a simple piece of reality.


With this said, if the rep. itself, by keeping the players, have an effect, then it is a problem. But it doesnt seem like it though.


I play with Man Utd and I tried beating Liverpool 4-0, but I also lost to Reading by 2-0 (one of my 5 defeats in two seasons sofar). To me that is realistic and I will not stop playing the most brilliant game ever made.

Thanks SI for making this superb game!

Michael Osmann
27-12-2007, 12:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Rømer:
Well, pardon me for posting something that might have been posted already (just cant read all the posts - too many of them).
But to me its obvious that changing the team rep. will affect the results. Here is my formular - its not Einstein, but still:
5 star player wants to play in 5 star club. If 5 star player plays in 1 star club, he will want to leave. And he probably has some "leave clause" and if he doesnt he will not give 100% on the field.
So a one star club with five star players will either lose the players or see them play bad. What if Cristiano Ronaldo had to play for Accrington or some club like that? would he want to leave? I think so.
If the club has players that are not motivated or lost their players, of course the club will not win games.

To me, that is not a bug, but a simple piece of reality.


With this said, if the rep. itself, by keeping the players, have an effect, then it is a problem. But it doesnt seem like it though.


I play with Man Utd and I tried beating Liverpool 4-0, but I also lost to Reading by 2-0 (one of my 5 defeats in two seasons sofar). To me that is realistic and I will not stop playing the most brilliant game ever made.

Thanks SI for making this superb game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian, is that you!!! My old buddy? Remember Cyanide Game Center? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Your name sounds very familiar to my ears http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Brian Rømer
27-12-2007, 13:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Michael Osmann:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Rømer:
Well, pardon me for posting something that might have been posted already (just cant read all the posts - too many of them).
But to me its obvious that changing the team rep. will affect the results. Here is my formular - its not Einstein, but still:
5 star player wants to play in 5 star club. If 5 star player plays in 1 star club, he will want to leave. And he probably has some "leave clause" and if he doesnt he will not give 100% on the field.
So a one star club with five star players will either lose the players or see them play bad. What if Cristiano Ronaldo had to play for Accrington or some club like that? would he want to leave? I think so.
If the club has players that are not motivated or lost their players, of course the club will not win games.

To me, that is not a bug, but a simple piece of reality.


With this said, if the rep. itself, by keeping the players, have an effect, then it is a problem. But it doesnt seem like it though.


I play with Man Utd and I tried beating Liverpool 4-0, but I also lost to Reading by 2-0 (one of my 5 defeats in two seasons sofar). To me that is realistic and I will not stop playing the most brilliant game ever made.

Thanks SI for making this superb game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian, is that you!!! My old buddy? Remember Cyanide Game Center? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Your name sounds very familiar to my ears http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup, that is me. Cyanide Game Center rule...d!! I know its not a personals forum, but hope you are doing good there?
Been a long time http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Michael Osmann
27-12-2007, 13:38
@Brian

Sorry guys in danish http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ja, for dælen da - det er længe siden. Nok 4 år http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Det går fint. Arbejder som socialrådgiver i Århus Kommune. Havde du nogensinde troet at Jeg skulle hjælpe andre mennesker med deres problemer *LOL*

Hvad med dig, opholder dig stadigvæk på djævleøen? Og man er nom blevet chef hva'! hehehttp://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Brian Rømer
27-12-2007, 14:25
Sorry about the danish too, guys:
Ja, det havde man jo ikke troet LOL. Tja, chef er jo sådan et taknemmeligt ord, men jeg har da i hvert fald ansvaret for en afdeling som står for salgskoordinering og markedsføring, samt firmaets website, så det... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Sq godt at høre fra dig igen. Håber at alt er ok og at du stadig er sammen med kæresten.

Og Lasse lever også, han leverer vistnok stadigvæk lidt grafik til Cycling Manager?
Jeg har ikke haft noget med Cyanide at gøre siden den gang. Spiller heller ikke CyM længere.

Anyways, tales. Evt. drop en pm så kunne vi fortsætte på MSN ved lejlighed.

gubbs
27-12-2007, 14:33
Arghhh, I'm blind!

Jopo12
27-12-2007, 16:29
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RSCA4Ever:
Thanks for testing good to see it doesn't affect the league i play in, so i am very happy for that, because when i first saw this thread i felt a bit disappointed if games would had been decided by reps.
/QUOTE]

Well as far as I have been trying things out those "reps" are very much what decides matches. Just find yourselves a opponent which is nearly impossible to beat and alter both team reputations and watch the rival succumb to defeat, given that you put your own rep up and opponent's down. This effects media etc. too, which isn't a big deal but still I think it's somehow weird.

And then you could debate whether that "quick" match engine or whatever is enough to disturb the game. I personally don't find it very much of an annoyance if teams are performing differently and by different attributes whether the league is active or not. But maybe it eats some atmosphere when a team like Chelsea beats everything on and off the field and then you look closely and see only mediocre players performing superbly and them buying expensive players without money etc. as they only have an great reputation. When it is going to drop anyways? Or isn't it adjusting at all as game doesn't give too much about it? The samish thing I wondered once as I changed Barcelona's status to a semi-pro team and watched their superstars value going down, just because they were semi-professional team playing in La Liga and with those stars. Well it really doesn't associate in here that much but there will be doubters like me, not in this particular case but others until proven otherwise http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. But nothing is ever developing without little sceptism every now and then http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

SurvivorSoso88
27-12-2007, 17:33
Thanks for the effort arfaern,but I can't say that I'm surprised...we all knew that SI was cheating in some way and this is just how they do it...I would like to see someone crack the game engine so that another diablo appears...Not because I want to cheat but because with this game engine you need about 30 shots to score a goal,oh and the opponent needs about 2 to score just as much...

neil220779
27-12-2007, 17:38
might be worth a "bump"

neil220779
27-12-2007, 17:39
oops, never noticed it was 3 pages long, though it was just one http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Michael Osmann
28-12-2007, 10:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Rømer:
Sorry about the danish too, guys:
Ja, det havde man jo ikke troet LOL. Tja, chef er jo sådan et taknemmeligt ord, men jeg har da i hvert fald ansvaret for en afdeling som står for salgskoordinering og markedsføring, samt firmaets website, så det... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Sq godt at høre fra dig igen. Håber at alt er ok og at du stadig er sammen med kæresten.

Og Lasse lever også, han leverer vistnok stadigvæk lidt grafik til Cycling Manager?
Jeg har ikke haft noget med Cyanide at gøre siden den gang. Spiller heller ikke CyM længere.

Anyways, tales. Evt. drop en pm så kunne vi fortsætte på MSN ved lejlighed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

@ Brian Rømer

Man ka' vist ikke sende PM her på Sigames' forum http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Her er min MSN adresse michael@osmann.dk.

Har hellere ikke spillet Cycling Manager siden vi havde CGC. Gider sgu ikke det mere. FM er meget bedre http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Desuden er jeg ikke sammen med hende der mere. Poppa er blevet en bachlor igen. Kommune-tøserne bliver sgu straffet herfra *LOL*

bRAzIL
28-12-2007, 11:06
eh?

Michael Osmann
28-12-2007, 11:43
That's freakin danish http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not a beauty but speakable *lol*

eXistenZ
28-12-2007, 11:59
To me it look like a funny form of my own language: dutch

aenariel
28-12-2007, 12:40
To sum this up, I'd like to have a new option,

"Run every match in full if team is from country *X*".

That'd include national teams as well as clubs, in every competition. That way, if we're running, say, Iceland, FM would play full matches for any national Icelandic team (under-21 and under-19 anyone?) as well as Icelandic teams playing in european competitions.

Would LOVE to see this done.

aenariel
28-12-2007, 12:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aenariel:
To sum this up, I'd like to have a new option,

"Run every match in full if team is from country *X*".

That'd include national teams as well as clubs, in every competition. That way, if we're running, say, Iceland, FM would play full matches for any national Icelandic team (under-21 and under-19 anyone?) as well as Icelandic teams playing in european competitions.

Would LOVE to see this done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, yea, if other teams in my league perform well/badly in other competitions, it DOES affect my team. And if the national team performs badly, even if I don't have a player performing in it, it still can indirectly affect me.

Greg Andrade
29-12-2007, 10:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sad Git:
I'm somewhat unconvinced by Miles' argument that the background match engine "doesn't affect the user in any way". Of course it does, EVERYTHING in the game affects the user! Anything that means the game world isn't being convincingly rendered can potentially cause problems down the line. You might take over a club in a background league, and switch the league into the foreground. You might sign a player based on his performances in a background league. You might play against clubs that have been promoted or relegated from a background division. I can think of literally dozens of other examples.

Call me stupid but I don't quite understand why the background match engine uses team Reputation to calculate results. Why not use squad CA? I don't honestly see why it should take any longer that way, and it's overwhelmingly the players that decide the outcomes of football matches, Reputation counts for nothing. (See England, Newcastle, Spurs, etc etc.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant post. I'd like to see a response from Miles about this, but maybe he thinks the "disproving" has already been done and there is no issue remaining. Clearly there is a HUGE issue if match results around the globe are being determined based on reputation. I agree with the idea of match results being based on CA.

blab
29-12-2007, 10:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm in 2021, and for the last 5 years Serie A looked like this:

Year 1st - 2nd - 3rd

2017 Inter - AC Milan - Atalanta
2018 Inter - Juventus - Reggina
2019 Reggina - Lazio - AC Milan
2020 Lazio - Reggina - AC Milan
2021 Reggina - Lazio - Juventus

In 5 seasons, Reggina managed to win 2 titles, finish 2nd, 3rd and 7th. So the top teams are not always champions, at least not in my game.

blab
29-12-2007, 10:40
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blab:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm in 2021, and for the last 5 years Serie A looked like this:

Year 1st - 2nd - 3rd

2017 Inter - AC Milan - Atalanta
2018 Inter - Juventus - Reggina
2019 Reggina - Lazio - AC Milan
2020 Lazio - Reggina - AC Milan
2021 Reggina - Lazio - Juventus

In 5 seasons, Reggina managed to win 2 titles, finish 2nd, 3rd and 7th. So the top teams are not always champions, at least not in my game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Forgot to mention that the EPL is the only league on full detail in my game, Serie A is not.

muncherdave
29-12-2007, 11:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MixitupMixitdictator:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Must add, regardless of this and other "issues". I find FM2008 totally playable and thoroughly addictive and entertaining. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree with this, but one thing i have too say i have a problem with the next patch is due for Feb. The game has been released nigh on 5months by the time we get this and it's only another 7/8 months before the new game comes out. This too me is unacceptable, nearly as much incomplete game time as complete game time.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely you mean 4 months

aenariel
01-01-2008, 22:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Greg Andrade:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sad Git:
I'm somewhat unconvinced by Miles' argument that the background match engine "doesn't affect the user in any way". Of course it does, EVERYTHING in the game affects the user! Anything that means the game world isn't being convincingly rendered can potentially cause problems down the line. You might take over a club in a background league, and switch the league into the foreground. You might sign a player based on his performances in a background league. You might play against clubs that have been promoted or relegated from a background division. I can think of literally dozens of other examples.

Call me stupid but I don't quite understand why the background match engine uses team Reputation to calculate results. Why not use squad CA? I don't honestly see why it should take any longer that way, and it's overwhelmingly the players that decide the outcomes of football matches, Reputation counts for nothing. (See England, Newcastle, Spurs, etc etc.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant post. I'd like to see a response from Miles about this, but maybe he thinks the "disproving" has already been done and there is no issue remaining. Clearly there is a HUGE issue if match results around the globe are being determined based on reputation. I agree with the idea of match results being based on CA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mirrork
09-01-2008, 06:44
what surprises me the most is, that whenever(well at least in 80% of the cases) an issue is discovered by many players, SI runs a test or whatsoever or disapproves it with a theory...

...but what is the point if many users still have this issue and SI(however they may run the tests)doesnt have them?

this is too much politics like when the current government talks about his achievements in the actual period...everything is purple, rainbows and pink bunnys everywhere...

sten_super
09-01-2008, 08:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mirrork:
what surprises me the most is, that whenever(well at least in 80% of the cases) an issue is discovered by many players, SI runs a test or whatsoever or disapproves it with a theory...

...but what is the point if many users still have this issue and SI(however they may run the tests)doesnt have them?

this is too much politics like when the current government talks about his achievements in the actual period...everything is purple, rainbows and pink bunnys everywhere... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What 'issue' being described here do many users have? You frequently move players from a Premiership club to a League 1 club and vice versa? The theory was that reputation was almost the sole determinant of results in matches; SI proved this wasn't the case when the matches are run in full detail.

Experiments like this are fundamentally flawed anyway. I'm having this discussion with someone in the Bugs forum at the moment, but I'll have it here as well.

Reputation, as viewed in game, is a number that is derived somehow from a combination of factors i) league achievements ii) cup achievements and iii) player reputation. I am going to assume for the sake of my argument that player reputation is directly proportional to player ability i.e. the better a player is ability-wise the higher his reputation (not strictly true but it is generally).

The game, it would seem, when calculating matches in reduced detail, uses reputation as a measure of team ability. This makes sense, as it is a measure of team achievements and player reputation (which I have said above, is a measure of player ability). HOWEVER, when someone uses the editor to manually set the reputation, this throws out the relationship. Reputation is no longer an accurate measure of player ability or team ability. This is a situation that can only be created by the user, by use of an editor of some kind. It is not something that will happen in game, as any fluctuation in player ability, or team achievement, will filter through into an adjustment in the reputation of the team.

I hope that makes sense, but fear it probably won't. It makes sense to me at least!

Jopo12
12-01-2008, 05:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sten_super:
The game, it would seem, when calculating matches in reduced detail, uses reputation as a measure of team ability. This makes sense, as it is a measure of team achievements and player reputation (which I have said above, is a measure of player ability). HOWEVER, when someone uses the editor to manually set the reputation, this throws out the relationship. Reputation is no longer an accurate measure of player ability or team ability. This is a situation that can only be created by the user, by use of an editor of some kind. It is not something that will happen in game, as any fluctuation in player ability, or team achievement, will filter through into an adjustment in the reputation of the team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So are people really thinking that there can not be a situation where team reputation and their ability wouldn't match that nicely? You do realize that the game works the same way in every situation? It doesn't see whether it is edited and bizarre or possible and sensible. And more the game strays to the way of these "unrealistic" situations, the more it will work wrongly. I don't want AI to score even only one goal which is based on FM looking at reputations. Maybe not a big difference but it still isn't right.

And as the reputation based on team ability, can you explain and prove that if Man Utd wielded their young team in CL, would they suffer too much from their lack of skills or would their clearly world class reputation compensate? As sten_super seemed to admit that edited situations could result in incorrect happenings, how it differs from playing your worst players and winning if your reputation is the best in the world? To disprove that you'd have to completely prove that reputations doesn't matter, but as I am considered they will, and to the match happenings. It seems they even modify how striker are able to shoot the barn door, for what I've experienced. Or then it's just me imagining but somebody tell me then I am wrong.