These forums need a proper lower league forum

I appreciate there's already one, but without opening a whole can of worms, we need one that is more accessible to everyone and one that isn't bogged down by ridiculous rules and restrictions and where people can discuss all things LLM without fear of being hounded and banned for merely discussing the game.

Even a sub forum attached to the current LLM forum would be a welcome addition.

you can always use the career forum

Ok, Risking a whole can of worms here... but... What would you want from the forum that is not in the current LLM forum. (Bearing in mind that LLM is as much a way of playing the game, as about Lower Leagues).

Yeah, use the Career forum. You can talk about all aspects of your career there.

Would be a good idea to put in place a forum that people playing in Lower Leagues can come and talk about tactics, players etc. It wouldn't have to have anything to do with the LLM forum. It would be nice for people playing in the lower leagues to have somewhere to go without getting swamped in the GPTG forum because of people posting about the best players in the game.

Ok, Risking a whole can of worms here... but... What would you want from the forum that is not in the current LLM forum. (Bearing in mind that LLM is as much a way of playing the game, as about Lower Leagues).

I have a lower league game running, and always have done - right from the first time I started playing FM. However, I have never ventured into the LLM forum. Why? Because as the OP said, there are too many (imo) stupid rules and restricitions about what you can't say and do.

It needs to be, again imo, like the GPTG forum - whereby you can name players/tactics etc, and help people out. I think a lot of people here play as a LL team, but have nobody to share their knowledge and advice with. It is okay to say they can post in the carrer forum, but that really isn't a place to help someone out - really just a place to tell your story?

The guys at the LLM forum are entitled to play their way, and I think 99% of people appreciate that and adhere to their rules, but I totally agree that there needs to be a LLM forum for people who want to play LLM a 'different' way.

I have a lower league game running, and always have done - right from the first time I started playing FM. However, I have never ventured into the LLM forum. Why? Because as the OP said, there are too many (imo) stupid rules and restricitions about what you can't say and do.

It needs to be, again imo, like the GPTG forum - whereby you can name players/tactics etc, and help people out. I think a lot of people here play as a LL team, but have nobody to share their knowledge and advice with. It is okay to say they can post in the carrer forum, but that really isn't a place to help someone out - really just a place to tell your story?

The guys at the LLM forum are entitled to play their way, and I think 99% of people appreciate that and adhere to their rules, but I totally agree that there needs to be a LLM forum for people who want to play LLM a 'different' way.

I can understand that idea, theres certainly the option to use the GPTG. I can also understand it would be fustrating if threads kept dropping off the page, keep ideas coming (the worst that can happen is I pass your ideas on and nothing changes )

It needs to be, again imo, like the GPTG forum - whereby you can name players/tactics etc, and help people out. I think a lot of people here play as a LL team, but have nobody to share their knowledge and advice with. It is okay to say they can post in the carrer forum, but that really isn't a place to help someone out - really just a place to tell your story

The careers forum is actually supposed to be a discussion based forum for save games, with the place to just tell your story being FM Stories.

I can understand that idea, theres certainly the option to use the GPTG. I can also understand it would be fustrating if threads kept dropping off the page, keep ideas coming (the worst that can happen is I pass your ideas on and nothing changes )

Yeah, I don't think just putting it into the GPTG would work - as you have said it would almost certainly drop off the first page within a few days and get lost amongst the other team threads and player guides. Perhaps having it attached to the GPTG forum in the same way as the Tactical download section is attached to the T&T forum would work?

Ok, Risking a whole can of worms here... but... What would you want from the forum that is not in the current LLM forum. (Bearing in mind that LLM is as much a way of playing the game, as about Lower Leagues).

Thanks to davehanson, i won't need to bore you with my reasons as they're pretty similar to the reasons he's given.

As for the career fourm, it isn't a place to discuss the intricate details of LLM.

Add to that, the current LLM fourm doesn't cater for the likes of people who opt for teams such as Verona, Sheffield Wed etc.

The careers forum is actually supposed to be a discussion based forum for save games, with the place to just tell your story being FM Stories.

I didn't realise that tbh. And, just wondering, if I didn't know it how many others didn't? But, my point I feel is still valid. I know there are people like me who would want to help and discuss with other people various aspects of LLM, but at the moment we can't really do that.

If you're going to use the 'there's a career forum for that' line, then you might as well band together LLM in that as well. That's just a career isn't it?

I didn't realise that tbh. And, just wondering, if I didn't know it how many others didn't? But, my point I feel is still valid. I know there are people like me who would want to help and discuss with other people various aspects of LLM, but at the moment we can't really do that.

We are aware that some of the forum descriptions aren't exactly clear, hopefully they will be tidied up at some point.

I think the need for a separate lower league forum would probably hold a bit more weight if the current FM sub forums were being overrun with lower league discussion, that is basically how some of the newer sub forums (CSE, careers) got started. There's nothing stopping people from using GD, T&T and GPTG to discuss lower league stuff, maybe you could use those for the time being?

If you're going to use the 'there's a career forum for that' line, then you might as well band together LLM in that as well. That's just a career isn't it?

The LLM forum is basically a forum for anything that can be posted which obeys the rules and ethics which have they have decided on. It isn't just supposed to be a place for career updates. The career updates forum is like an equivalent of LLM, but with no rules or ethics and no restrictions on clubs/leagues.

We are aware that some of the forum descriptions aren't exactly clear, hopefully they will be tidied up at some point.

I think the need for a separate lower league forum would probably hold a bit more weight if the current FM sub forums were being overrun with lower league discussion, that is basically how some of the newer sub forums (CSE, careers) got started. There's nothing stopping people from using GD, T&T and GPTG to discuss lower league stuff, maybe you could use those for the time being?

I don't think that at any point the sub forums are going to be overrun with LLm stuff. Let's be honest, the amount of potential people that would post in a LLM sub-forum would be a small % of people on this site. If you look at the sub-forums at the moment:

T&T discussion: 183,000 posts

GP&TG: 459,500 posts

LLM: 65,800 posts

You are never going to be overrun with LLM posts. Partly at the moment people are not posting because really they don't feel they have anywhere to post.

Perhaps overrun was a poor choice of word, that isn't really what I meant. What I was really getting at is that there are places which cover pretty much everything, which seem to be underused by some people. I just want to encourage people to at least try using the current sub forums before deciding we need new ones.

If there are examples of types of lower league threads that literally do not fit into careers, GD, T&T or GPTG then I'd be interested to hear about them. I appreciate that just because I'm happy with the forums available for my lower league discussion, not everyone else will be.

It's like most things, people tend to use something if it's centralised rather than having to search for different information that's spread around in 3 or 4 locations, which require you to click through umpteen different links just to find what you're looking for. And as things stand, the forums that have been mentioned tend to get quickly swamped by people discussing Barca, Man U etc, whether it be players or tactics.

I can only speak for myself, but i tend not to frequent these boards as it involves having to sift through a huge amount of irrelevant information and having to visit different boards. Granted there's a search function, but we all know that doesn't always work as it's intended to work.

If i want to discuss my career game, i know there's one specific area and as such i don't need to go through endless amount of forums to discuss my career. it can all be posted in one place.

The LLM stories should go in the careers' forum, then i think it'd be fine

How about a separate thread in each of the appropriate forums for managing in the lower leagues?

Tactics forum would offer general tactical help for that level, GPTG would offer player advice etc...

I know what you mean, I guess I'm probably in the minority in that I'm happy to frequent 6/7 different forums on a regular basis (although using the subscriptions and the user CP makes things a lot easier for me now). I'm probably also in a minority in that if I want to post/discuss something, I'll find somewhere to do it, I won't hold back.

How about a separate thread in each of the appropriate forums for managing in the lower leagues?

Tactics forum would offer general tactical help for that level, GPTG would offer player advice etc...

I know there already is one in the tactics forum here. I'm not sure about GPTG though, I'm guessing that is all split up into individual clubs?

If i want to discuss my career game, i know there's one specific area and as such i don't need to go through endless amount of forums to discuss my career. it can all be posted in one place.

That's exactly what I would like the career updates forum to eventually become. I know it doesn't look like that at the moment and will need a certain element of rebranding, but I'd very much like it to contain more discussion based threads than just story based ones. It will never be restricted to just lower leagues, but the GPTG tends to cover the bigger clubs leaving us the types of people who prefer lower leagues or journeyman type careers.

I tried to visit the LLM forum... they play too rough over there

I play by strict LLM rules but the forum is unwelcoming and clique, they don't take their ball home, they just don't let you play...

I have a lower league game running, and always have done - right from the first time I started playing FM. However, I have never ventured into the LLM forum. Why? Because as the OP said, there are too many (imo) stupid rules and restricitions about what you can't say and do.

It needs to be, again imo, like the GPTG forum - whereby you can name players/tactics etc, and help people out. I think a lot of people here play as a LL team, but have nobody to share their knowledge and advice with. It is okay to say they can post in the carrer forum, but that really isn't a place to help someone out - really just a place to tell your story?

The guys at the LLM forum are entitled to play their way, and I think 99% of people appreciate that and adhere to their rules, but I totally agree that there needs to be a LLM forum for people who want to play LLM a 'different' way.

I'm going to second this as well. I agree entirely. The current LLM forum is not to my tastes, I don't agree with or like the rules and I'd rather have open discussions without them. As a LLM myself I'm all for a sub forum of some kind where I can discuss things without getting hammered for saying one thing slightly out of place in the current forum. My ventures in to the current LLM forum has ended in rude and unacomadating replies from users there, I haven't been there for a long long time though, perhaps 5+ years.

Would people be happy with the career updates forum being rebranded to include more discussion threads rather than just update threads?

Agree with this idea i dont bother posting in the LLM section because they get uptight and have a hissy fit if you post, well pretty much anything. A sub forum in either LLM or Career sections would be a welcome addition that i would use

Would people be happy with the career updates forum being rebranded to include more discussion threads rather than just update threads?

No id rather a LLM sub forum to discuss things all LLM with others like myself

No id rather a LLM sub forum to discuss things all LLM with others like myself

Same here.

I've always wondered why SI allow the LLM forum to exist as it is, there must have been quite a few players put off the forums by the way they were addressed in there and I wouldn't be surprised if people have stopped buying the series because of it. Personally I play by the same rules those guys use for the majority of my saves, but it seems strange to me that a small group of people are allowed to decide on the rules of lower league management in the official game forums.

I'd like something attached to the current LLM forum too. That way, it stands the maximum chance of attracting the most people. How the tactical forums are set out is ideal, as you know where you're going and you're not confusing people by attaching the T&T download forum to something else entirely.

Like others have stated, i myself adhere to most of the rules currently set out by the LLM mob, but i think not allowing people to discuss certain aspects of the game such as "i blew my whole wage budget signing player 'x'" is going too far. Fair enough, people stating everyone should sign said player should be kept to the Good player forum, but there's nothing wrong with saying which players you have signed or naming players whom everyone and his dog knows starts at the club you're managing.

As i also stated, people should be able to access a LLM forum and be able to discuss managing the likes of Verona or Torquay, without fear of being lynch for breaking some inane rule.

Stick to the point of the thread or it'll be closed, the OP isn't out to slag off the current LLM forum, he's suggesting a need for an alternative for those who don't play according to their rules.

This has been a point of Mod/SI discussion for some time, any decision rests with SI so we'll have to wait for them but any non confrontational suggestions/discussion are welcome.

When I was starting my latest save I was giving some thought to posting about it in one of LLM/Career/Stories. Ultimately I decided it was too much effort to do it in the detail I wanted to in any of the above, but I'd already ruled out LLM just because of the defensive attitude and atmosphere in there. And the threads, because of the strict rules applied to them, aren't even interesting to read.

In the GPTG, there is a Career Thread. In there it's where you start off unemployed or as a lower league team and can build a team or up or move aorund etc etc. That would be good place to post for the time being imo.

Here is the thread I was on about.

There are also numerous lower league threads in the GPTG where you can discuss players, tactics and the problems that you are facing.

I may have got the wrong end of the idea. If so then sorry.

When I was starting my latest save I was giving some thought to posting about it in one of LLM/Career/Stories. Ultimately I decided it was too much effort to do it in the detail I wanted to in any of the above, but I'd already ruled out LLM just because of the defensive attitude and atmosphere in there. And the threads, because of the strict rules applied to them, aren't even interesting to read.

How come you didn't post in the careers forum?

Stick to the point of the thread or it'll be closed, the OP isn't out to slag off the current LLM forum, he's suggesting a need for an alternative for those who don't play according to their rules.

This has been a point of Mod/SI discussion for some time, any decision rests with SI so we'll have to wait for them but any non confrontational suggestions/discussion are welcome.

I don't think people are being confrontational at all. They are merely stating their experiences in the current LLM forum, which happens to be one of points of why people would like what was stated in the OP.

No id rather a LLM sub forum to discuss things all LLM with others like myself

This, I've wanted this before but didn't think anyone would actually listen.

No id rather a LLM sub forum to discuss things all LLM with others like myself

I would like this as well.

I had a save using LLM rules a couple of weeks ago (I've still got it, just haven't played it for a little while) and I posted it in the LLM forum, the people in LLM were quite welcoming tbf to them, as long as you stick to the rules you shouldn't have any trouble. But it would be nice to have a forum where you can talk to other people that play in the lower leagues about players etc.

Is it possible to add a sub section to the LLM section of the forums? One that uses LLM rules and one for people that play with lower league teams but want to discuss players etc?

It took a lot of effort to get the Careers Forum. If there's enough interest a 'proper' LLM forum then it'll happen eventually.

I think that discussion of LLM can exist in the Careers Forum though. Most of us in FMCU just post our careers but there's always good discussion. Most of us are from CSE and it's the nicest and friendliest community IMO.

I've always wondered why SI allow the LLM forum to exist as it is, there must have been quite a few players put off the forums by the way they were addressed in there and I wouldn't be surprised if people have stopped buying the series because of it. Personally I play by the same rules those guys use for the majority of my saves, but it seems strange to me that a small group of people are allowed to decide on the rules of lower league management in the official game forums.

These "rules" are there as guidelines for people who want to make LLM their ethos. It is not an "official" way to play, but an accepted way to approach the game realistically. You have the choice. If you don't like their rules, play the game your own way. I never understand people who moan about the LLM section. Don't visit there if you don't like and play however you want to. Surely you can how the discussion of tactics, training, and which players to buy defeats the purpose of the game for people in that are of the forum

No id rather a LLM sub forum to discuss things all LLM with others like myself

Signed! This is what we want dammit

In my opinion the main problem is the simple fact that LLM stands for Lower League Managers (or Lower League Management).

Now, put yourself in the shoes of someone visiting the forum for the first time. If you arent managing in the top league in your chosen nation, on the face of it, that forum seems like the perfect place to start. Even though there is a brief description...

For managers that enjoy the challenge of bringing a lower league team to the top - without the need for tipping, cheating or bragging

...it doesnt really indicate the amount of rules and regulations there are in order to adhere to the ethos of the LLM way of playing the game. Now I have nothing against LLM or those that choose to play that way, I just think it makes it harder for those seeking advice on the issues that crop up when play lower leagues, or those that want to discuss their game in particular detail that the current LLM forum doesnt allow.

I tried to visit the LLM forum... they play too rough over there

I play by strict LLM rules but the forum is unwelcoming and clique, they don't take their ball home, they just don't let you play...

I thought this, but I had a conversation with one of the mods first about my thread before posting it and it was fine.

I am joining the yes squad for a lower league forum where we can discuss what ever we like. I always have a lower league game running, but could never discuss it properly in the LLM forum for obvious reasons.

Personally I'd like to see a lower league subforum for the careers forum, a place to specifically talk about everything to do with your lower league game.

The only issue i would have with that, ackter, it wouldn't be in an obvious location. Especially for those people that are new to the boards. Take the T&T boards for example, the first place anyone goes when looking for a tactic is the T&T board and as per the recent changes, it's pretty obvious that the actual tactics have now been given their own board.

if i was looking for a place to discuss LLM, my first port of call would be to the actual LLM board and if all i could find was the LLM, with all its rules etc, i would assume that was that and wouldn't even consider there was some sort of spin off board attached to another forum/board.

Call me dumb, but when I think of careers, my first thought is 'career' not LL management. After all, it's a pretty broad term.

Of course, it's possible that there could be a link to the new forum on the current LLM header.

Count me in. I've been wanting this for years. davehanson covers the main reasons; there are many lower league managers who don't want to sign up to that forum's exclusive set of "guidelines", but at the same time have nothing in common with people asking who to buy for Manchester City.

I've been managing FC United, using an excellent fan-created lower league file (banned by LLM forum), getting tactical insights from the tactics forum (banned by the LLM forum), especially the sadly deceased SFraser. and enjoying reading the career updates of fellow FC United managers. However, to do that I have to go into GPG forum and discipline myself to avoid threads asking about -9 youths and suchlike. In short, I think there are many like-minded people who want to play the game properly without unrealistic tipping (not GPG forum or the 'download my diablo tactic'bsub-forum), but can realistically learn about players and tactics (not allowed in LLM forum).

This is my suggestion

Title the current LLM forum thus:

Lower League Managers Forum (Restricted playing style in the LLaMa tradition)

Put this near the bottom.

Create a new forum

Lower League Management General Discussion Forum.

Put this directly below GD.

You might want to consider reordering the forum list in general because LLM is currently surrounded by Tactics, GP &TG, Dafuge's Challenges and FM stories, making accidents almost inevitable.

Count me in. I've been wanting this for years. davehanson covers the main reasons; there are many lower league managers who don't want to sign up to that forum's exclusive set of "guidelines", but at the same time have nothing in common with people asking who to buy for Manchester City.

I've been managing FC United, using an excellent fan-created lower league file (banned by LLM forum), getting tactical insights from the tactics forum (banned by the LLM forum), especially the sadly deceased SFraser. and enjoying reading the career updates of fellow FC United managers. However, to do that I have to go into GPG forum and discipline myself to avoid threads asking about -9 youths and suchlike. In short, I think there are many like-minded people who want to play the game properly without unrealistic tipping (not GPG forum or the 'download my diablo tactic'bsub-forum), but can realistically learn about players and tactics (not allowed in LLM forum).

See, this is exactly right.

I love playing LLM games. I love playing them using all sorts of user created files so I can get cracking in the Cambodian league or wherever, and I love getting and giving advice about how exactly to get the best out of a specific player. The whole LLaMa tradition thing is years and years old, and when the rules were established the potential around user created DB files simply wasn't there. I'd love for something to move with the times, leave the llamas to their world, and allow us to access a community of like minded folks.

Something like Kriss suggest would work fine.

Move LLM to the bottom below Careers forum and just put the 'proper' LLM forum above it (or below it). Originally, a lot of users came from CSE to FMCU so it would be wise to just that leave that format the way it is.

Hope Careers forum still get a lot of people posting their progress with their clubs if this goes through.

Not sure about a GD subforum in a proper LL forum though. FMCU only have a GD thread and it works fine.

I'd quite like a lot of the people who are so strongly in favour of a new lower league forum to at least try posting in the careers forum, even if it is just to give feedback on why they feel restricted by it. I know it is not strictly limited to the lower leagues, but the vast majority of threads in there do start off there. There's also the added bonus of being able to stay there when you get promoted!

I know it hasn't been particularly well branded or advertised, but apart from the limits on leagues it is basically what people are after. Please at least give it a go.