a suggestion re tactics for future games

I do not like or agree with the tactics creator. I don't like the simplification, nor the idea that to get around match engine flaws sigames push this aspect in front of the old way of creating tactics (yes, I know it is still there at the moment). I'd rather see the match engine be genuinely improved.

but all of that is by the by.

my issue is this: the tactics creator imposes upon you the idea of what an 'advanced forward' is and what he does. and it tells you he exists, which one may agree with or disagree with.

what I want to see is that it is left blank when you buy the game. you then get to create these shorthand presets for each position yourself. you get to name the presets so no-one has to argue over what a trequartista is, whether it still exists or what instructions it should have. you name the presets, you choose the instructions.

then you save them. they are yours, and any system you make can be made quicker because you have your presets at hand to plug and play as the phrase goes.

you get rid of the wwfan versions. (if they are his versions). those become optional downloads, or even in the folder when you get the game, a simple click of import away, should you wish to use them.

then everyone is happy, no?

this idea extends to shouts. you name the shouts, you choose what they do.

thoughts guys?

p.s.

this kind of sycophancy is not needed. this is not intended as an attack on anyone:

"There are very few people who, over the years, have proved to me that it's worth listening to everything they say. wwfan is one of them."

Some of your comments aside, the ability to create and save your own presets is a good idea and something I asked for over a year ago.

However the Tactics creator allows users with slightly less knowledge or indeed inclination, to accurately create a "standard" tactic. I don't think it should be removed.

I think the tactics creator is a wonderful tool. The presets make logical sense, and I trust what wwfan writes more than writing my own presets.

But you have the option of using classic tactics as well, so why remove TC? At the moment we have the best of both worlds, so no need to change it.

Why remove what is there, why not just add the ability to add your own profiles if you want too? You can already change them so suit whatever your looking for anyway, regardless of what they are called. If i want to set my poacher up with advanced forward instructions i can, if i want to set up my defensive midfielder with advanced playmaker settings i can.

I'd certainly agree with being able to create your own role pre-sets, but I do not get why you would want to hide the existing roles. That would only make things much more difficult for players who aren't into in-depth tactic creation and the roles for each position help people much more easily create working tactics.

Nice idea Gullit

I think the tactics creator is a wonderful tool. The presets make logical sense, and I trust what wwfan writes more than writing my own presets.

But you have the option of using classic tactics as well, so why remove TC? At the moment we have the best of both worlds, so no need to change it.

sure but I think that should be optional, something that is either downloaded or turned off as a default.

I understand the OP IF we couldn't change the pre-set roles that are in the game. But thats not the case. Hell, you can even preset your foward as a targetman, start messing around and in the end is playing like a poacher.

With this in mind, i dont think this ideia would change a bit the way people create tactics using the TC. The only thing that would change is... for example... let's say i want my targetman to have "often" in long shots instead of medium. Ok, i save this profile as "Keyser Soze targetman", and every time i create a new tactic with the TC i'll get this preset for my forward instead of the "regular" targetman. Usufull? Sure, but not mind blowing imo, and for sure not a reason to come here and trash wwfan work.

Like i said in the begining... you can change the way you want the current preset roles, you can even create your tactic without using the TC, so what else do you want more?

Without the whole "advanced forward" etc designations, I can say I truly wouldn't be playing this game series anymore. I am a big fan of them and the simplification makes the game seem less like a spreadsheet more like an actual game, in my eyes it gives the game in essence a soul, a lot more than sliders do.

I am not against allowing a player to create their own presets, I see no reason against that. Perhaps even the ability to "unlock" the default presets and edit those, but I think for the sake of people who like elegant simplicity and to leap right into the game, I think the current presets are fine.

I trust what wwfan writes more than writing my own presets.

why not send your copy of the game to him with a note reading "I want to be chelsea" and wait for him to write back telling tales of how well he... you have done?

sure but I think that should be optional, something that is either downloaded or turned off as a default.

But it's already optional - use TC or classic tactics, I don't see the problem.

why not send your copy of the game to him with a note reading "I want to be chelsea" and wait for him to write back telling tales of how well he... you have done?

This isn't what I meant. I've read a lot of what he has written over the years, some of which I agree with, some not so much. But the preset settings for the player roles do make logical sense having looked at each of them, so I don't see the need to write my own.

fine, then download his settings / turn the sigames presets on in preferences.

I personally don't agree with them (which apparently means I am trashing wwfans work according to kevin spacey up there), and moreover I do not think they should be imposed upon me. in the same way that sigames don't include tactics made by other people, I don't think they should include wwfans presets (as good or bad as they may be).

fine, then download his settings / turn the sigames presets on in preferences.

I personally don't agree with them (which apparently means I am trashing wwfans work according to kevin spacey up there), and moreover I do not think they should be imposed upon me. in the same way that sigames don't include tactics made by other people, I don't think they should include wwfans presets (as good or bad as they may be).

They're not his presets, they are the TC presets. He played a part in the creation of the TC, but others did too.

Not agreeing with the presets, fine, but I do not think it would be a good idea to not have some default ones for people to use. Otherwise it is just going back to the bad old days of the slider system where things are confusing for newer players. To me the TC has been a huge leap forward in helping me build tactics and play the kind of football I like with my teams in the game. It is a much better interfact and allows for much easier construction of tactics than the old sliders.

What would you set up as your own touchline shouts out of interest, and what different roles would you like to introduce into the game? It would also be interesting to know what you dont agree with as it stands, why do you not agree with the poacher settings, or what the "get ball forward" touchline shouts does to your team?

fine, then download his settings / turn the sigames presets on in preferences.

I personally don't agree with them (which apparently means I am trashing wwfans work according to kevin spacey up there), and moreover I do not think they should be imposed upon me. in the same way that sigames don't include tactics made by other people, I don't think they should include wwfans presets (as good or bad as they may be).

Dont like them, dont use them! Get you can this more simple?

Edit: Really enjoy the sence of humor with the "kevin spacey up there"

fine, then download his settings / turn the sigames presets on in preferences.

I personally don't agree with them (which apparently means I am trashing wwfans work according to kevin spacey up there), and moreover I do not think they should be imposed upon me. in the same way that sigames don't include tactics made by other people, I don't think they should include wwfans presets (as good or bad as they may be).

Are you a brick wall in disguise?

One last time, they are not imposed on you, they are optional. If you don't want to use the TC, use classic tactics!!

Man, here is another thread talking about things they can do already and claiming the game is forcing this on them. Do not use the TC and change the players to however you want on the classic. It is already there. I think you were just trying to have a go at certain people rather than be constructive.

Are you a brick wall in disguise?

One last time, they are not imposed on you, they are optional. If you don't want to use the TC, use classic tactics!!

The better question would be is he pauly1616 in disguise

As for the topic the TC has been one of the best improvements in FM for years.

Its took away most of the sliders that a lot of users didn't understand and replaced them with easy to understand footballing terms. I don't have a problem with having more preset roles or for a user to be able to create their own but I do have a problem with someone restricting the enjoyment of others by taking away something that makes life easier.

The better question would be is he pauly1616 in disguise

That had crossed my mind!

who is trying to have a go?

why not try to entertain ideas that exist outside of your thinking rather than opting to not be receptive to them? this default snap defensive reaction is not healthy at all.

I know, as I have said, you don't need to use the tactic creator. I am not saying lose it. I am saying make it, and the shouts, something you can edit to your own taste. and I am also saying that it should not be the case that one persons interpretation of the match engine / slider system should be presented as the official interpretation of the game.

It must be either the same person or his mate, theres a lot of hate for wwfan going about right now, did he sleep with someones wife or g/f??

I know, as I have said, you don't need to use the tactic creator. I am not saying lose it. I am saying make it, and the shouts, something you can edit to your own taste. and I am also saying that it should not be the case that one persons interpretation of the match engine / slider system should be presented as the official interpretation of the game.

They're presenting the offical interpretation of roles and shouts, as the roles and shouts you see in-game. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

who is trying to have a go?

why not try to entertain ideas that exist outside of your thinking rather than opting to not be receptive to them? this default snap defensive reaction is not healthy at all.

I know, as I have said, you don't need to use the tactic creator. I am not saying lose it. I am saying make it, and the shouts, something you can edit to your own taste. and I am also saying that it should not be the case that one persons interpretation of the match engine / slider system should be presented as the official interpretation of the game.

your being constatnly insulting to get your point across i dont see why you need too?

the TC and shouts are not one persons interpretation of anything. Wwfan is not the only person in the world to work on the TC and TS.

It must be either the same person or his mate, theres a lot of hate for wwfan going about right now, did he sleep with someones wife or g/f??

I am not being critical of wwfan here. if I am going to be critical of anyone, it would be you, for your apparent inability to internalise simple ideas.

1. I am not gullit4

2. Wwfan worst thing to happen to this game in years.

3. The typical reaction here: ignore suggestions, defend what exists, put down criticism of the game, is not a woeful atmosphere for the improvement of FM. It's a great suggestion, as he says- no need to ditch the TC, just give us the option to make it our own.

ignore suggests, defend what exists, put down criticism of the game, is not a woeful atmosphere for the improvement of FM. It's a great suggestion, as he says- no need to ditch the TC, just give us the option to make it our own.

I don't think anyone is contending that, people are more disagreeing with the removal of the existing shouts and roles. Beign able to create your own would be very useful, just don't see the need to remove the existing ones which are useful for most people when making tactics.

And saying that wwfan/the TC is the worse thing to happen to the game in years, personally I think the TC is the best thing to happen to the game in years.

yeah but what is amazing is he didn't actually suggest the removal of the TC. Closest he got to that was "put it in a folder/preferences you can turn on/off"

I am not being critical of wwfan here. if I am going to be critical of anyone, it would be you, for your apparent inability to internalise simple ideas.

well care to answer my question, what touch line shouts would you personally create and what dont you agree with as they stand, why does "get the ball forward" or " retain possession" not work for you in its current format? What is wrong with the centre mid profile and what would you replace it with?

well care to answer my question, what touch line shouts would you personally create and what dont you agree with as they stand, why does "get the ball forward" or " retain possession" not work for you in its current format? What is wrong with the centre mid profile and what would you replace it with?

simply with my own ideas of what they mean.

perhaps people think I think wwfan is a bad player. or that he doesn't know how to get accurate results from his player instructions. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE.

the issue is that I want to play the game using my own ideas about what a player performing role X should do, and how he does it.

the issue is I don't think sigames should make one person's ideas about the engine official to the point that they are included as default in game settings.

What would you set up as your own touchline shouts out of interest, and what different roles would you like to introduce into the game? It would also be interesting to know what you dont agree with as it stands, why do you not agree with the poacher settings, or what the "get ball forward" touchline shouts does to your team?

What i don't agree with is for example when i want to change to an "attacking" style of play I have to play with an extremly high defensive line with high width and tempo, If i could create my own template i could fine tune the settings and perhaps tone things down a little if i wished. I rarely use any of the touchline shouts or other "quick tweaks" at the moment. There are always little things that need tweaking for most positions. I like to have my fullback hug the line for example. Not going to go into every little thing i disagree with right now although i may well do that when FM 12 comes out.

Gullits idea wouldn't take anything away from the game and would give me back the feeling of playing with a tactic that i created. I can do most of the things i want to do now but this would make things a lot easier.

Would also like to have set peice templates as it's kind of frustrating having to go through a new set peice creator every time i want to make a new tactic.

who is trying to have a go?

why not try to entertain ideas that exist outside of your thinking rather than opting to not be receptive to them? this default snap defensive reaction is not healthy at all.

I know, as I have said, you don't need to use the tactic creator. I am not saying lose it. I am saying make it, and the shouts, something you can edit to your own taste. and I am also saying that it should not be the case that one persons interpretation of the match engine / slider system should be presented as the official interpretation of the game.

You were claiming this feature was imposed on you, so I (and others) were merely pointing out that it is not, to which you were not acknowledging, instead making snide remarks or comments to everyone.

Most of your posts have been pretty negative, so you should expect to see some negative responses. If you spent more time suggesting alternatives or even providing some examples of how you could improve things, rather than just criticising the current (optional) system, then you might get a better discussion going.

As I said, I like the TC and all the preset options it has, but I would also welcome the option of saving your own presets for roles/shouts, in the same way you can with the overall tactics.

They are not just one persons idea's! They come from a team of people, wwfan just happens to be part of that team, he is not the be all and end all of FM's TC.

But i would really like to hear how you would implement either of the touchline shouts i have said before differently from they way they work now. What would happen differently? What settings would you change from the way they are currently?

Like i said in my first post it could be a good idea to add the ability to add a name to a pre-set, but technically speaking you can change them to do whatever you want as it stands.

Would also like to have set peice templates as it's kind of frustrating having to go through a new set peice creator every time i want to make a new tactic.

superb idea. this is the kind of thing I'm driving at. it is possible to simplify the game for those that want it, and retain the sense that they are truly masters of their destiny.

What i don't agree with is for example when i want to change to an "attacking" style of play I have to play with an extremly high defensive line with high width and tempo, If i could create my own template i could fine tune the settings and perhaps tone things down a little if i wished. I rarely use any of the touchline shouts or other "quick tweaks" at the moment. There are always little things that need tweaking for most positions. I like to have my fullback hug the line for example. Not going to go into every little thing i disagree with right now although i may well do that when FM 12 comes out.

Gullits idea wouldn't take anything away from the game and would give me back the feeling of playing with a tactic that i created. I can do most of the things i want to do now but this would make things a lot easier.

Would also like to have set peice templates as it's kind of frustrating having to go through a new set peice creator every time i want to make a new tactic.

but you dont have to, you can change any of the settings to suit your team at any point, fair enough you have to go into the tactics settings, or you could set up various different saved tactics for whatever scenario, but nothing is forced as a set in stone as a setting, any of the roles and mentalities can be adjusted to suit whatever you want.

Like i sad, adding new options yes, but why be so negative towards the team of people who have worked hard to make this game more accessible to people not that tactically aware?

They are not just one persons idea's! They come from a team of people, wwfan just happens to be part of that team, he is not the be all and end all of FM's TC.

But i would really like to hear how you would implement either of the touchline shouts i have said before differently from they way they work now. What would happen differently? What settings would you change from the way they are currently?

Like i said in my first post it could be a good idea to add the ability to add a name to a pre-set, but technically speaking you can change them to do whatever you want as it stands.

okay, one person or a team of people, that is irrelevant. unless you are a part of that small group then it is not your interpretation.

the shouts:

I don't see why you should care? only that I want to name them and choose what they do. that is the relevant point, why are you so resistant to that?

Like i sad, adding new options yes, but why be so negative towards the team of people who have worked hard to make this game more accessible to people not that tactically aware?

OH MY GOOD GOD!

take it in, for the love of god, take it in!

wwfan, or the team to which he belongs, is not being criticised.

what is being criticised is that if you use the TC you have to go along with his / their presets, you cannot make your own and name them as you wish. the person at fault is the person who chose to implement the hard work of wwfan and the team in question into the game itself.

I'm not resistant, i've said in 3 posts in this thread it could be a good idea, you must have missed that, im just interested what you would do differently, why is that so hard to answer?

Even with your suggestion, you will still be working to the same teams interpretation of football and the tactical side of things. You will still be working from what their interpretation of attacking is, and what their interpretation of what pressing is.

Guys...this is fast becoming a troll-fest. I get his point and I too think that the ability to save your own presets would be a valuable addition...I also agree with others though that the TC is a good innovation for people who don't want to bother too much about the intricacies of tactical creation..or simply don't have the knowledge.

I'm sure we're all of an age that we can formulate an opinion, a counter opinion, and voice them both with equal respect for each other. Let's at least try and keep an open mind and comment respectfully rather than this forced conformist culture which is breeding too much for my liking on a forum I've been a member of longer than all of you and remember that it started as a bunch of like minded individuals sharing ideas...not trashing others!

I think the TC is a superb addition but I stil prefere the control you have with the Classic setup. The ability to save 'preset' shouts/tactics would be ideal.

Setting up 'Macros' would be a brilliant addition. Not just for the TC users but also the Classic users.

it isn't hard to answer, it is simply not relevant. I don't want to let this thread descend into a tangential mess.

the second point... pressing attacking etc... I think it is a very very hard thing to get right and they have my sympathies. year on year I don't think we are getting closer to a true simulation of football which is a problem, but for another thread.

Is it necessary for him to go through and list it for it to be a good idea?

clearly it would be a great help in functionality for a lot of players.

i want to see the Kaiser soze targetman

but why be so negative towards the team of people who have worked hard to make this game more accessible to people not that tactically aware?

Hardly being negative mate, It just seems some people are overly defensive of their work and take the slightest critisicm as an insult to their inteligence. This kind of attitude isn't going to improve the game in the long run. I would like to see the tactics creator progress and be more flexible for advanced users and i think this may well be a way to do just that.

I doubt I could do a better job than wwfan has and i appreciate what he has done in trying to explain things to users. Plus he's an aussie

Plus he's an aussie

Pfft. He's an ex-patriot Brit.

I agree with the OP, extra customisation of roles and shouts (including making shouts availible for classic tactic users) would be a good thing. However, I think the current ones should automatically be availible, and extra work should be done to disable them rather than enable them. I think a majority of people would rather use these settings, or some similar to them.

It would be nice to have more options and put your own spin on the position pre-sets but for making an option to change shouts and create your own I don't think is nessecery because what they say gives a good explanation of what they are. I don't see the need for me to change 'Get Ball Forward' to a different name to get the same effect.

I gave up reading the thread once the bickering got started but in response to the OP (and one or two others)..

I like the idea of being able to set our own presets but I'd also like to keep the current ones in as a default option, having to turn on something that is necessary for a new player to be able to play the game is what people call "counter-intuitive" as they are not only expected to know what to do but if they don't know they are then expected to know how to turn it on so that they do... confused? Exactly...

I don't recall who said that the presets aren't logical, I don't want to say that they're not, but I do want to say that they don't match my idea of what a player in particular role would or wouldn't do and that then changing anything manually results in you having to change it manually every time you change your mentality instructions (attacking, defensive, counter, et al) because you've over-ridden the preset.

When I got FM10 and then 11, I set up my 4-4-2 as it was designed (i.e. I chose the roles in the TC that I had intended the players to have in the pre-TC days) and spent ages having to change almost every individual instruction on most of the team... For FM10 I didn't know that "convert to classic" meant I could still use the TC/shouts, just not with that particular tactic, when I discovered that in FM11 I immediately "changed to classic" and fixed the tactics...

and now the players do what I expect them to do in the situation they are in.. well, almost, I've still no idea why Xavi, with 4 Barca shirts in close proximity AND the keeper, panics like a 10 year old when in his own box facing the goal and hoofs the ball over his shoulder and out of play when not under pressure..) yeah right, real classy soccer...

I gave up reading the thread once the bickering got started but in response to the OP (and one or two others)..

I like the idea of being able to set our own presets but I'd also like to keep the current ones in as a default option, having to turn on something that is necessary for a new player to be able to play the game is what people call "counter-intuitive" as they are not only expected to know what to do but if they don't know they are then expected to know how to turn it on so that they do... confused? Exactly...

I don't recall who said that the presets aren't logical, I don't want to say that they're not, but I do want to say that they don't match my idea of what a player in particular role would or wouldn't do and that then changing anything manually results in you having to change it manually every time you change your mentality instructions (attacking, defensive, counter, et al) because you've over-ridden the preset.

When I got FM10 and then 11, I set up my 4-4-2 as it was designed (i.e. I chose the roles in the TC that I had intended the players to have in the pre-TC days) and spent ages having to change almost every individual instruction on most of the team... For FM10 I didn't know that "convert to classic" meant I could still use the TC/shouts, just not with that particular tactic, when I discovered that in FM11 I immediately "changed to classic" and fixed the tactics...

and now the players do what I expect them to do in the situation they are in.. well, almost, I've still no idea why Xavi, with 4 Barca shirts in close proximity AND the keeper, panics like a 10 year old when in his own box facing the goal and hoofs the ball over his shoulder and out of play when not under pressure..) yeah right, real classy soccer...

Yeah, Poachers, for example, aren't really supposed to dribble all around the pitch. They are supposed to run onto the ball on through balls and crosses, not with it. Therefore I disagree with the Often Run With Ball default instruction set for poachers.

Without commenting on the rest of the "discussion," I think the idea of user-made player roles is a great one.

I too like the idea to be able to add user-made roles to the existing ones defined in the Tactics Creator.

I think it should somehow be possible to achieve "peace in FM" by making shouts compatible with classic tactics. This would be true 'best of both worlds' as those who want more control could convert to classic tactics without losing the extra flexibility of shouts.

To make this possible, I think shouts would need to be interpreted 'relatively' to existing tactical orders, rather than overriding them absolutely.

The idea of customized roles is a brilliant one and worth implementing ASAP...

However I think there should be a better integration between TC options and shouts and personal instructions... Basically I often feel there are TOO MANY instructions and more often than not the changes I might made may or may not work depending on how something else is set...

Not to mention the fact some very basic instructions seem to be ignored by the ME at random... e.g. a Poacher wandering around on the flank or playing 30 yards away from the goal... Defensive-minded fullbacks still overlapping and exposing the team etc...

While the degree of depth reached by the tactical part of the game is admirable, I think it's time for a good ol'd "spring cleaning"... Less instructions but easier to understand (for us) and to process/replicate (by the ME)