Visual Player Attributes - Do We Still Need Them?

As feedback in FM improves - better scouting reports, more player stats, better match analysis etc - should there be an option to turn off player attributes? Currently I find FM too easy (and believe me I'm not a great manager), even starting with a Conference North team in a space of a few months I can buy up lots of good, young, free players who can easily put me into the play-offs in the first season. This is partly due to passive and poor AI management (as highlighted in several posts on this forum) and improving this would undoubtedly make the game more challenging. However, because we can see players skills represented as numbers it makes it very easy to buy good players for your team. In fact it's difficult to make a poor signing and who IRL can name a manager who hasn't made several bad signings?

I think having the option to remove visual attributes would make us rely more on scouts and analysis of match stats to find the right player - much like a real manager would.

Personally, I think FM is advanced enough now to incorporate this option but I'd like to hear what other FMers think.

I think there's a skin that allows you to do this.

I think there's a skin that allows you to do this.

I wasn't aware of that, do you know what it's called?

I personally would be open to a more broad and generalised stat format. There seem to me to be too many specific stats which help the manager a bit too much. But perhaps this is realsitic? I don't know, but maybe it could be more generalised. Not sure how that would work out in the ME though. Perhaps the stats could still exist, yet they were put into a broader format for the player? Or only scouts could see the players in such a specific manner. I think stats need to be downgraded across the board in anycase.

The thing with NO attributes whatsoever, is that the scouting feedback, and more importantly, the match engine are not sophisticated enough for it to truly work. The match engine as it stands is almost purely representational, and not much about individual players can be deduced yet.

I wasn't aware of that, do you know what it's called?

Its not a skin, its a file you put into your existing skin. I've been playing 'blind' for months now and would never go back to visual attributes. The game is completely different and once you turn to the dark side there's no going back The reason - any success you have now is down to your own judgement and assessment of players - but you will need to watch your games and also other players you're interested in signing... bringing them in on trials etc, watching reserve games and u18's, and generally going to other clubs' matches and scouting targets yourself is what you have to do. If you stick with it you'll feel so much more satsfied building a successful team knowing its based totally on your own judgement and not just numbers on a screen.

Anyway to hide the attributes you need...

http://www.mediafire.com/?gjxflaxk44mrpkr

If you want it even tougher this second file hides the CA & PA recommendations on all scout reports...

http://www.mediafire.com/?c41sbs67w4nwuuy

The file(s) go here...

C:\Users\YOURNAME\Documents\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2011\skins\YOURSKIN\panels

I don't know if it works with all skins but it works with the Flex 11 skin (the one I'm using).

Always best to backup any existing files before over-writing them!

Remember to 'Use Skin Cache' ticked.

You can still see attributes if you use the ingame searches as these files only hide them on the player panels. But its pointless having the files if you're going to take a sneaky look at those attributes, so a bit of self discipline is needed not to look

I personally would be open to a more broad and generalised stat format. There seem to me to be too many specific stats which help the manager a bit too much. But perhaps this is realsitic? I don't know, but maybe it could be more generalised. Not sure how that would work out in the ME though. Perhaps the stats could still exist, yet they were put into a broader format for the player? Or only scouts could see the players in such a specific manner. I think stats need to be downgraded across the board in anycase.

The thing with NO attributes whatsoever, is that the scouting feedback, and more importantly, the match engine are not sophisticated enough for it to truly work. The match engine as it stands is almost purely representational, and not much about individual players can be deduced yet.

I don't agree with that. It took me a while to adjust to it but I can build a decent team now using my own assessment of how players perform in 3D games. You quickly learn how to read a 3D match and whose good at what, and who isn't. People have become far too reliant on numbers on a screen and not their own gut instinct and intuition. The match engine is actually pretty good and sophisticated enough to make playing blind viable... only just mind

Yeah you have a point. I think I will use those files...

Yeah you have a point. I think I will use those files...

Prepare for a few weeks / months of frustration and the buying of the odd donkey or three then, cos thats what you're in for. It gets easier though, and there's nothing like unearthing a gem of a player you looked at whilst on trial, developing him, and seeing him go on to great things

Well, i'm playing as Everton(updated DB/NO money), so I think for the first season I will be relying on loans like Sturridge/Wellbeck etc, but I will have to start buying players from the smaller leagues soon enough

Well, i'm playing as Everton(updated DB/NO money), so I think for the first season I will be relying on loans like Sturridge/Wellbeck etc, but I will have to start buying players from the smaller leagues soon enough

I started at the bottom with Harrogate Town in the BSN. Normally with visable attributes on I'm on my way up the leagues within a season or two, but playing blind saw my stuck in the BSN for 5 seasons before a slow gradual improvement began. I got to know about loads of conference players inside out eventually though!

While I can understand ideas that having attributes laid out for you you is unrealistic why would you ever want to turn off what your scouts thing of players abilities. Thats basically what they do in real life, look at players and give their opinion of how good players are. Theres fog of war and then deciding you would rather play with a blindfold.

While I can understand ideas that having attributes laid out for you you is unrealistic why would you ever want to turn off what your scouts thing of players abilities. Thats basically what they do in real life, look at players and give their opinion of how good players are. Theres fog of war and then deciding you would rather play with a blindfold.

Why I did it? Because I found myself falling into a routine of buying players based on how many stars my scouts gave players on their reports. Which even though aren't particularly accurate do give you and indication of how good or bad a player is, or will become. The way I wanted to play was to make my own assessment of them by watching them play in 3D (like an old-school real manager would do... he'd actually go attend games and make his own assessment and maybe bring his chielf scout along to compare notes.). And I found I could build a decent team pretty quckly relying soley on scout CA and PA reports despite some of them being inaccurate. That was something I wanted to avoid.

The way I do it now is send the scouts out to look at players and get a general idea of the players strengths and weaknesses etc from the report card. There's enough info on there as it is. I look at his position, age, wage, sometimes his history, preferred positions and personal info etc. Then decide if I want to look at him play and bring him in on loan or trial or go watch a fixture he's playing in etc. I suppose it depends on how quickly you want to progress and put your squad together wether you use that particular file or not.

Its not a skin, its a file you put into your existing skin. I've been playing 'blind' for months now and would never go back to visual attributes. The game is completely different and once you turn to the dark side there's no going back The reason - any success you have now is down to your own judgement and assessment of players - but you will need to watch your games and also other players you're interested in signing... bringing them in on trials etc, watching reserve games and u18's, and generally going to other clubs' matches and scouting targets yourself is what you have to do. If you stick with it you'll feel so much more satsfied building a successful team knowing its based totally on your own judgement and not just numbers on a screen.

Anyway to hide the attributes you need...

http://www.mediafire.com/?gjxflaxk44mrpkr

If you want it even tougher this second file hides the CA & PA recommendations on all scout reports...

http://www.mediafire.com/?c41sbs67w4nwuuy

The file(s) go here...

C:\Users\YOURNAME\Documents\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2011\skins\YOURSKIN\panels

I don't know if it works with all skins but it works with the Flex 11 skin (the one I'm using).

Always best to backup any existing files before over-writing them!

Remember to 'Use Skin Cache' ticked.

You can still see attributes if you use the ingame searches as these files only hide them on the player panels. But its pointless having the files if you're going to take a sneaky look at those attributes, so a bit of self discipline is needed not to look

Thanks very much for this, it seems exactly what I'm after. I never use the player search facility anyway as I consider it cheating and makes the game far too easy. I'll probably try this out on the demo for FM12. It would be good if the attributes panel could be replaced with the player stats screen ie, successful passes, tackle percentage etc.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who wants to play like this. For a while I felt like a seedy masochist wanting to punish myself by playing FM on ultra-realistic mode. Now, at least, I'm not alone.

Thanks very much for this, it seems exactly what I'm after. I never use the player search facility anyway as I consider it cheating and makes the game far too easy. I'll probably try this out on the demo for FM12. It would be good if the attributes panel could be replaced with the player stats screen ie, successful passes, tackle percentage etc.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who wants to play like this. For a while I felt like a seedy masochist wanting to punish myself by playing FM on ultra-realistic mode. Now, at least, I'm not alone.

You certainly aren't the only one whose wanted to play like this. Those files were download by over 100 people the first time I put them up 4 or 5 months ago, and again now 11 people have downloaded them from the new links I just put up within the last hour or so. So if thats anything to go by, there's plenty who are at least interested. You've got to stick with it though because its a bit daunting the first time you look at your new squad with no attributes showing and think WTF do I do now? Where do I start?

Good thread. Will give this file a try as soon as I can. This is what I have wanted for... minutes, since I started reading this thread

I can only say... guys, forget about the scout reports! I once saw a player, he was 15 with good attributes for his age but the scouts only gave him 1 star (I'm the biggest team in the world). Despite the scout reports and him playing in the 4th German tier, I bought him for 10k. Played him in the first team straight away, as I was sure he would get good ratings (he has high corner and freekick attributes, so he gets a lots of assists). Now, after 4 seasons, he is one of my most important players, broke into the German national team aged 19, gets a 7.50+ avg rating every season.. these really are the guys you dream of! He was never a wonderkid, I guess because his PA isn't very high.. but what does it matter? He performs brilliantly!

That happens often and I'm glad it does Koki. I play with teams in lesser leagues a lot so the type of players that are good at a certain few important things I want them to do but aren't overall brilliant so goto some other club are vital.

Koki I can totally relate to that. One of my favorite moments ever in this game wasn't winning promotion or a cup, it was seeing an 18 year old Italian AMC that I saw play against me in a low key pre-season friendly. I got him to come on trial for a month, see him get better with each game - signed him on a free and watched his development over the next six seasons, becomming far too good for my lowly team. He's now playing in Serie A and I recently watched him have a cracking game in the World Cup semi-final for Italy. Sadly he picked up a knock so missed the final. To this day I never once knew what his attributes were or even his CA and PA assessment from a scout. I didn't need to. I just knew he was a bloody good player

tbh I'm have deep deep respect for you Erimus! - i'm thinking it must take ALOT of patience and trials&errors before actually winning something

I will definately give this a go! - this is also almost only useful in lower league or league you're not familiar with. If you take on, say, Chelsea you already know what each player can and most players you'll buy the first 3-5 seasons will probably also be players you know of anyway..

But in a team where you dont know a single player.. jeesus.. must be a nightmare at first

tbh I'm have deep deep respect for you Erimus! - i'm thinking it must take ALOT of patience and trials&errors before actually winning something

I will definately give this a go! - this is also almost only useful in lower league or league you're not familiar with. If you take on, say, Chelsea you already know what each player can and most players you'll buy the first 3-5 seasons will probably also be players you know of anyway..

But in a team where you dont know a single player.. jeesus.. must be a nightmare at first

Yeah thats the thing. I think most people already know which players to buy and which ones to avoid since FM 11 has been out nearly a year now. So starting in an unfamiliar league or country will give you the biggest challenge.

As for starting with a team whose players you don't know anything about, my advice is just use pre-season as effectively as you can, arrange plenty of friendlies, even for your reserves and youth team, and just watch your players play (extended mode is fine, you don't really need to watch a full game). As always your coach report will give you a vague idea of each players strengths and weaknesses, but watching them play is vital imho. The mistake I first made was bringing in far too many trialists without first learning enough about the players I already had at the club!

I've used the idea of changing attribute colours and skin background to avoid seeing the attributes before and as said, it takes some getting used to - finding players is that bit more interesting and whole lot more rewarding, as well as frustrating. But worth it I would say if you want to challenge yourself and have an ultimately, more realistic game.

With next years' improved scout reports, the whole idea of blanking out attributes may appeal to more people as they attempt to deduce information from the reports and buy players that way as currently, the reports have very little skin on the bones.

i dont think visual player attributes is the problem. the problem is the unrealistic scouting system. how can a scout know every attribute of a 15 year old that is yet to play a single match for his team just by pressing "report card only"? the "report card only" option should not unveil stats that is not known by your scouts because it is just a report card of what that scout already knows. the scouts should be sent to watch at least 5-6 matches before the unknown attributes should be shown and even then not all attributes should be shown. currently there is "judging player ability" and "judging player potential". this should be expanded into

"judging technical ability"

"judging mental ability"

"judging attacking ability"

"judging defensive ability"

"judging physical ability"

..and more.

with this, a scout with a high "judging physical ability" will unveil the players physical ability after scouting 2-3 times in a match but other stats will remain hidden as the scout cant assess them well enough, then you can send a scout with high "judging attacking ability" to unveil the players attacking attributes. IRL, it is not reported all the time, but teams' scouts usually scout their targets for months or years to assess and decide weather they are good enough or not. it should be the same in FM. currently, the scouting system is extremely easy as with one click you find all the attributes of every player and you easily buy all the best young players and the game becomes very easy after a few years as a result. the AI and scouting system should be top priority for SI to improve on.

Its not a skin, its a file you put into your existing skin. I've been playing 'blind' for months now and would never go back to visual attributes. The game is completely different and once you turn to the dark side there's no going back The reason - any success you have now is down to your own judgement and assessment of players - but you will need to watch your games and also other players you're interested in signing... bringing them in on trials etc, watching reserve games and u18's, and generally going to other clubs' matches and scouting targets yourself is what you have to do. If you stick with it you'll feel so much more satsfied building a successful team knowing its based totally on your own judgement and not just numbers on a screen.

Anyway to hide the attributes you need...

http://www.mediafire.com/?gjxflaxk44mrpkr

If you want it even tougher this second file hides the CA & PA recommendations on all scout reports...

http://www.mediafire.com/?c41sbs67w4nwuuy

The file(s) go here...

C:\Users\YOURNAME\Documents\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2011\skins\YOURSKIN\panels

I don't know if it works with all skins but it works with the Flex 11 skin (the one I'm using).

Always best to backup any existing files before over-writing them!

Remember to 'Use Skin Cache' ticked.

You can still see attributes if you use the ingame searches as these files only hide them on the player panels. But its pointless having the files if you're going to take a sneaky look at those attributes, so a bit of self discipline is needed not to look

Im guessing this is just for FM11....

It sounds very interesting.

Skin cache needs to be unticked, not ticked.

I play like this as well, much more rewarding.

i dont think visual player attributes is the problem. the problem is the unrealistic scouting system. how can a scout know every attribute of a 15 year old that is yet to play a single match for his team just by pressing "report card only"? the "report card only" option should not unveil stats that is not known by your scouts because it is just a report card of what that scout already knows. the scouts should be sent to watch at least 5-6 matches before the unknown attributes should be shown and even then not all attributes should be shown. currently there is "judging player ability" and "judging player potential". this should be expanded into

"judging technical ability"

"judging mental ability"

"judging attacking ability"

"judging defensive ability"

"judging physical ability"

..and more.

with this, a scout with a high "judging physical ability" will unveil the players physical ability after scouting 2-3 times in a match but other stats will remain hidden as the scout cant assess them well enough, then you can send a scout with high "judging attacking ability" to unveil the players attacking attributes. IRL, it is not reported all the time, but teams' scouts usually scout their targets for months or years to assess and decide weather they are good enough or not. it should be the same in FM. currently, the scouting system is extremely easy as with one click you find all the attributes of every player and you easily buy all the best young players and the game becomes very easy after a few years as a result. the AI and scouting system should be top priority for SI to improve on.

This... 110%

It's not that the stats are visable at all, its only that they are too easy to see and are always accurate. Combine that with insanely terrible AI in team building/development, and the homan player is always going to have an easy time and just gets easier every season.

But if our scouta had to spend weeks/months following around a hand full of players looking for that diamond in the rough it would make it far more challenging and interesting.

The attributes represent what is "known". If you have three potential corner takers, with corner taking 13, 14 and 18 respectively, the coaching report/backroom staff meeting/etc. is going to suggest the one with corner taking 18 should be your first-choice corner taker (or something to that effect). However, you cannot distinguish between the 13 and 14 without seeing attributes.

However, every manager in reality knows their second- and third-choice corner takers!

The attributes are realistic in that sense - you know how to compare player X's and player Y's passing and it just so happens that a number is a good way of representing it.

If it's too easy, then it's an AI problem where the AI isn't aggressive enough at looking for true quality.

Is this reversible once applied to the game?

Would anyone also be able to post a couple of screenies of the downloads?

Is this reversible once applied to the game?

Would anyone also be able to post a couple of screenies of the downloads?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/Nicko85/atthidden.jpg

Only issue is you can't see morale and recent form, but you can see that on the selection screen. Although to nitpick if you had a keeper sent off and didn't have one on the bench, you can't see who is the best option to play in goal either.

To reverse it just delete the file. It doesn't replace anything.

The octagonal graphic is still visible, is it just too difficult to remove?

A few of the popular skins don't have it, I don't think its intentional but it stops me from using them, look in this thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/230889-List-of-Available-Skins-for-FM2011

Something that could be good to both sides (Not seeing stats vs. Seeing stats) would be something that I remember Premier Manager (The ones for Sega MegaDrive) had

You could not see the stats for players who weren't in your team. The only information you had were ratings like 'Poor', 'Superb', 'World Class' and other things. The stats could only be seen when you buy that player. It would be an interesting and realistic idea, specially if ratings change according to your team's strength (Much like a scout's report)

Simply from an accessibility point of view, attributes need to be present.

An inclusion of an option to turn them off would be awesome though.

I'd be very interested to see if anyone's played quite a few seasons and built a new squad based on judging just from how they play in the match engine, if anyone would be kind enough to load the game up again (without the added files) to see some screenshots of the players they've signed

Just to see if they've actually bought some good players, or if a poor player is still in your squad but still playing well

Appreciate it if anyone can be arsed

Do we need them? Of course we do...

This is a GAME, and a computer program... comparing it to real life's dynamics is a bit absurd IMO.

The numeric attributes are needed by the game itself to calculate the outcome of the matches (every single action in the ME is the result of attributes calculations), and viewing them is a "shortcut" to replicate the real-life knowledge of managers, coaches and staff.

Do you really think Guardiola didn't know beforehand Fabregas was a better passer than, say, Sergio Busquets? Would Mancini need to watch 20 matches to realize Dzeko is a better target man than Balotelli, while the latter is more creative, yet lazy/erratic?

Hell no... Managers DO KNOW who's better at what... especially about players they've had in their squad for a long time, but also about famous and relatively famous players...

Or does SAF drive to Swansea with just a list of the opposition players' names and roles, knowing vague details about them?

Come on, if a relatively well-informed fan can give a reasonable opinion on HUNDREDS of players' abilities, should we believe a professional manager is just a klutz who can't tell apart the Milito bros without having watched them play for a whole season?

The only thing that is in need of a massive overhaul is the SCOUTING SYSTEM... Fog of war is fine, but it should be thicker and it'd take more time to find out whether that 19yo striker from a random Italian academy is the next Giuseppe Rossi or the next Arturo Lupoli...

In a perfect FM, he could be BOTH, depending on circumstances, but it'd definitely take a substantial amount of scouting to get a clearish picture.

Attributes are fine, and are a no-brainer to have for the human-controlled team and for the "known world". But they'd be more difficult to disclose and surely less accurate in the beginning for the "lesser football world"

With invisible attributes, how does one know what to train the players on? Some attributes are clear cut when watching in 3D others not so much. For example, what would need the most work in a missed shot- technique, composure, or finishing?

This... 110%

It's not that the stats are visable at all, its only that they are too easy to see and are always accurate. Combine that with insanely terrible AI in team building/development, and the homan player is always going to have an easy time and just gets easier every season.

But if our scouta had to spend weeks/months following around a hand full of players looking for that diamond in the rough it would make it far more challenging and interesting.

I totally agree. I'd happily play with visible stats again if they were a rough guide only, and I mean very rough. As it is now, you have one extreme or the other. With them on you know pretty much how good a player is in this skill or that skill, with them off you have no idea at all unless you see him play enough times to make your own assessment, and even then all you can do is really compare him against other players you've seen - playing blind you never truly know how good or bad he is, you only know how good or bad he plays. You get an idea of how "good" he may be by his valuation, and thats about it.

And thats the difference between playing with or without visible attributes. You rely on watching games and making micro-management changes and decisions based on what you see out there on the pitch, or you can take your coaches advice as gospel. All said and done, its really playing the game in simulation mode and not arcade mode (not that there's anything wrong with arcade mode). Its just not for me anymore.

I remember playing a game called Player Manager 2 on the Amiga back in the early '90's and the way it visualised attributes was by coloured stars, the brighter the star, the better the player. You had no idea of how really good a player was, you just knew at a glance he was better than one with a slightly darker star. Colours ranged from dark purple to bright gold, so there was a large range in-between. Something like that would be good in FM as a compromise as even playing with coloured bars in FM instead of numbers is far too accurate for my liking.

Is this reversible once applied to the game?

Would anyone also be able to post a couple of screenies of the downloads?

Yes, simply delete or rename the files.

Although I am not interested in playing this way I see no reason why there cannot be an option to turn off player attributes completely.

I'd be very interested to see if anyone's played quite a few seasons and built a new squad based on judging just from how they play in the match engine, if anyone would be kind enough to load the game up again (without the added files) to see some screenshots of the players they've signed

Just to see if they've actually bought some good players, or if a poor player is still in your squad but still playing well

Appreciate it if anyone can be arsed

I can't tell you how good or bad my players were as individuals as I don't even know that myself, I can tell you the success and failures I've had playing this way though. Best I've done to date is take a team like Harrogate Town from the BSN to League 1 in 13 seasons. The first and only season in L1 I won the JPT final but was relegated before starting a new save. So 3 promotions and 2 relegations, and a minor cup along the way. By no means impressive, but I thoroughly enjoyed that save. I've started a new game with Queen of the South so will upload some screenshots of my team in a few seasons time when I've had time to put my own squad together.

With invisible attributes, how does one know what to train the players on? Some attributes are clear cut when watching in 3D others not so much. For example, what would need the most work in a missed shot- technique, composure, or finishing?

Some of the things are obvious, like composure or physical stats. These you can see play out in 3D. You can usually tell after a while whose poor at what. But mainly I rely on the Backroom Advice of what my coaches tell me players should be working on.

Also, one thing I forgot to mention. Being sacked or moving clubs becomes a whole lot more daunting since you know you're going into a new club totally blind of what you're inheriting. You have a rough idea of course, but it literally is like starting all over again from scratch. You'll find yourself poaching a few players off your previous club because you know those players and have worked with them Just like real managers often do when they switch clubs.

like the sound of this

as many have pointed out going from minnow to major is pretty easy after playing the game for a while

this brings in a touch more realism to the game especially at a lower level

Who really has the time for this?

This is something that would drive me away from the game.

Enjoyment>Realism

Also, one thing I forgot to mention. Being sacked or moving clubs becomes a whole lot more daunting since you know you're going into a new club totally blind of what you're inheriting. You have a rough idea of course, but it literally is like starting all over again from scratch. You'll find yourself poaching a few players off your previous club because you know those players and have worked with them Just like real managers often do when they switch clubs.

You mean Rafa last year walked in at Inter Milan and he didn't really know Sneijder was more creative and more technical than Muntari? Or he needed long weeks of careful observation to realize Eto'o was a top-class striker while Alibec was barely bench material?

Real life managers have plenty of experience and knowledge and also have the advantage of hours of DAILY TRAINING to evaluate players' abilities etc...

So FM just have to "simulate" that, and showing numerical attributes is the easiest way (also for "under the hood" program calculations)

Also, let's not forget hidden attributes play a fairly big role in a player's development and performance... We have all bought our fair share of "talants" who ultimately turned out being a lot less exciting than we thought, while often an apparently ordinary player has brought us joy and success...

Attributes need to stay visible, just make the Fog of War thicker for younger and less-known players

How about making scouting make a difference? I play ootp as well as fm, and in ootp you have the option to turn scouting on or off, as well as adjust its accuracy. With scouting off (ie no scouts) you see the true ratings with it on you see the scouts opinion of the ratings, which can change between scouting reports by the same scout as well as between scouts.

There is also a "Talent change" setting which can see your 5 star prospect turn into a chump, or your lower league filler turn into an every day player (ie PA is not fixed).

All that being said there is still a very strong "Stats only" cadre in the ootp forums!

I find it easy enough to just not look.

I played a save just looking at the octagonal graphic and scout reports, and another save just reading what the scout had to say. Once or twice on each save I was tempted to look at attributes but in the end I didn't - if you choose to play like that why ruin it by peeking.

You mean Rafa last year walked in at Inter Milan and he didn't really know Sneijder was more creative and more technical than Muntari? Or he needed long weeks of careful observation to realize Eto'o was a top-class striker while Alibec was barely bench material?

No, I was talking more of wether Danny Parslow at York is a more composed DC than Tamworth's Ian Roper, and deciding which one will fit in alongside my current back four.

There is a whole world of football outside of Serie A and the EPL.

Real life managers have plenty of experience and knowledge and also have the advantage of hours of DAILY TRAINING to evaluate players' abilities etc...

So FM just have to "simulate" that, and showing numerical attributes is the easiest way (also for "under the hood" program calculations)

Also, let's not forget hidden attributes play a fairly big role in a player's development and performance... We have all bought our fair share of "talants" who ultimately turned out being a lot less exciting than we thought, while often an apparently ordinary player has brought us joy and success...

Attributes need to stay visible, just make the Fog of War thicker for younger and less-known players

For some people yes. And they always will be visible. A choice, wether implemented by SI, or worked around by skin-modders, is a good thing for all. There is no problem with choices. Its as if some people want everyone else to play the game as exactly like they themselves do. I find that strange. Fog of war thicker for younger and less-known players is a great idea, and one I definately agree on

Erimus1876, How do you read from a match if it's your player's ability/attributes or aspects of your tactic that need improvement?

No, I was talking more of wether Danny Parslow at York is a more composed DC than Tamworth's Ian Roper, and deciding which one will fit in alongside my current back four.

There is a whole world of football outside of Serie A and the EPL.

Yeh but if I take over as a manager in that league, I expect the scouts there already to have a good knowledge of the league and the players, alongside any Scout that I hire that has knowledge of that league and is recruiting players at that level.

I shouldn't walk into a Conference league and then have to send the scouts out for 2 weeks to tell me what players good in that league, meanwhile all the other teams in the leauge have been wheeling and dealing since day 1.

There is a whole world outside the EPL and Serie A. That's for sure. And there's a lot of scouts already working those leagues.

I should be able to say "ok you earmarked a 3 star DC in my team and all I have are 1 star DC to play alongside him"... "Can you recommend other players who would be better suited".

2 weeks later, yeh this guy is pretty good.

That's hardly realisitic. The scouts at the club should have the players already scouted when you get there or at least a knowledge of them.

I could be an Irish manager taking over a club in the Cyriot League 2. When I get there, the scout reports should already be there. The top players of the leauge pointed out. And the players to avoid.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works in real life. No manager walks blind into a league not knowing a single player. Even if they never ever followed that leauge.

It certainly shouldn't take 2 or 3 weeks to get scout reports back.

I don't mess with tactics at all and haven't done for a long time, even when I played with visible attributes. I use the default 4-4-2 or 5-3-2 with very very minor tweaks - and touching the slide bars is a big no no. Basically its the default settings, and the players fit into that so its not a case of endlessly tweaking tactics to suit players. I've used exactly the same tactics since FM10. The reason why I avoid messing with them is more to do with me not wanting to exploit some ME flaw, wether knowingly or not. So if my team is doing well I have faith its doing well because of my players, their morale, and the team talks, similarly if they're stuggling its more than likely because one of the above. If I had to try and figure out wether its players or aspects of my tactic that need imporvement it'd take me forever to build a team, and even I don't have the patience for that

Eugene Tyson I'm not sure what point you're making about the scouts and how it fits in with a no attribute game? I use my scouts all the time. My scouts are always out looking and recommending players. They give me enough information on the Report Card about a player to give me an idea if I want to take a closer look at him by either scouting him myself, or bringing him in on trial or loan if he's available. Yes its inacurate at times and yes you'll buy donkeys (which manager doesn't?) But playing without attributes doesn't mean playing without all the other information you have available to you.

At its basic level it just means you don't know if player A has 3 points more than Player B in attribute C. You will never know that playing this way. You will however know if Player A plays better than Player B and is consistant with it, because you'll see it with your own eyes and won't be relying on some arbitary match rating or a quantity of attributes someone has in this or that category telling you you should be seeing otherwise. Like I said perviously, when I played with visible attributes I'd often see "low-skilled" players play exceptionally well, and get low ratings. Similarly I'd see a so called world beater play crap and get MoM. And I'd pick that world beater for the next game instead of the lesser player because on paper he's worth £10m more and all his key attributes are in the red. I was way too influenced by numbers on the screen instead of what I'd just seen out on the pitch earlier.