PDA

View Full Version : Is it time for Variable PA



James.Clench
18-12-2007, 11:35
I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class.

James.Clench
18-12-2007, 11:35
I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class.

davesearle1984
18-12-2007, 11:44
I always thought that the PA of players was not for us to know, there are ways to find out but it was simply there so that the game would know how certain players could develop?

A player should only reach there PA under perfect conditions, for example with world class coaches and a world class youth system with the right mix of first team football to aid them. Therefore your PA would probably have been around 50, but as you never had the right training by the right coaches, you never reached your potential and ended up as just some lanky guy who gets stuck in goal

butts
18-12-2007, 11:48
In a word, no. Potential is the best a player can possibly be you could go to the finest youth academy in the world at 14 but you will NEVER exceed your potential. No one can make your potential increase or decrease only the ability you currently have will change. Its fair too say if i had gone to a state of the art training academy with the best youth coaches in the world i would be alot better than i am now but only because i would have reached my pontential not because i would have had more potential.

DMaster2
18-12-2007, 11:51
The real problem is that player are generated with ex 65 PA and reach that amount at 16 then they never improve. This is stupid, they should improve at least until 18/19; but before that PA shouldn't be set...

Sheer Class
18-12-2007, 11:57
You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance

postal postie
18-12-2007, 12:22
all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.
we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.
if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be.

postal postie
18-12-2007, 12:23
and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles.

Mitja
18-12-2007, 14:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:
all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.
we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.
if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is no PA IRE. how many times we seen PA changing to some player. it's just simplefied version of how things should be.

I would settle for variable PA.

stinger061
18-12-2007, 15:02
Variable PA is a bad idea in my view. This is because it could potentially mean the big clubs are constantly bringing through world class players simply because they are a big club.

If you are a small club trying to work your way up the ladder but the likes of Man United can constantly produce world class teams without having to find specific talent just because they can make any average joe a superstar talent.

Sad Git
18-12-2007, 15:10
Does PA/CA directly affect player performance? I always thought it just determined his starting attributes and the chances of them improving.

Optimistic Dave
18-12-2007, 16:41
Potential Ability should be fixed. The only case for varying it is if a player sustains a very, very serious injury.

Potential doesn't change. It is as good as you can ever be if you have all the right training, development and match experience. Environment affects CA.

If a player turns up in your U18s with CA of 60 and PA of 65 then all the coaching in the world won't affect his chances of becoming a good player. That is why top clubs don't churn out 5 youth players every year who can play in the first team. That is why the lower leagues are littered with players from Premier League academies. They simply weren't good enough.

4Site
18-12-2007, 17:13
I think having a set PA so young is detramental in that it doesnt take into account development evironment factors such as coaches and training facilities.

But there is the need for a guideline in terms of potential. I mean natural talent and ability exists in real life and its not something that can be taught in excellent training facilities otherwise teams such as Man Utd and Arsenal would just save them a lot of hassle by recruiting 11 local kids every year and developing them into world class players instead of spending millions and millions of pounds tracking down, and accuiring players who have shown natural ability at such a young age such as Rooney, Walcott, Fabregas, Anderson etc


I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc.

Neville_Roach
18-12-2007, 17:29
If Potential Ability dosnt need to change, as others have noted this is natural; its the best you could be - Then how can you tell this in a player at any age? Your asking a game to predict how good this player can be based on very little evidence at a very young age.

This suits the game because its easy to code, and everything in game seems to be related to ability so its quite a big factor, but i think the fluctuation between dvelopment would hit bugs...and oh...please not any more...

MixitupMixitdictator
18-12-2007, 17:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this cat is right, it's all about maximizing talent.

Kawee
18-12-2007, 18:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think this is pretty good idea. Anyone under have no set PA. But not like 1-200. Sergio Arguero start off with not a set PA, but a possibility of 170-200 PA. Then depending on how he develops, his PA will be set when he turns 21. IT could be 185 it could be 195. But it depends on his development and not just determined since the beginning of the game. Then one turn 21, there are no more changes to the PA. Just a matter of maximizing his now-set PA.

This idea would please those who wish for variable PA. But it would also please those who wish for it to be set. And it would prevent big clubs from creating super talents every year because although it is possible to maximize a youngster's PA, his PA can still only go so high.

DeadZone
18-12-2007, 18:33
I agree with 4site's and Kawee's ideas

Of course, a players personality should have an effect as well

phnompenhandy
18-12-2007, 22:17
As has been stated, PA is a hidden stat and the gamer is never supposed to know it.

Furthermore, it is entirely realistic. I knew from being the last kid picked in the playground at age 5 that my PA was never going to get above a single digit figure, not even if I blagged my way into the Arsenal academy. With the best facilities and coaching, you still need some inherent ability to work with.

So an unchanging PA is no problem with me. What I have noticced in the last few weeks since using an editor is that PAs DO change - with injuries a PA can drop - which again is entirely realistic; what perplexes me is that PA sometimes increases. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

The Gaffovski
18-12-2007, 22:40
I think what Kawee suggests is a great idea.

phnompenhandy
18-12-2007, 22:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gaffovski:
I think what Kawee suggests is a great idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see any REAL difference here. Let's take his example of Aguerro.

On a fixed PA system his POTENTIAL is set at 195. Depending on his developement it will max out at 185 unless a lot of luck and ideal circumstances causes it to increase to up to 195. On the other hand, back luck and injuries could cause it to max at, say, 150.

Fixed PA IS 'variable' - the actual PA is the highest possible total it could reach. Apparently in FM08 far fewer players ever max their PA, which does appear to take into account these very concerns but in a different way.

DirtyJoe
18-12-2007, 23:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sheer Class:
You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!!

Kawee
19-12-2007, 00:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> On a fixed PA system his POTENTIAL is set at 195. Depending on his developement it will max out at 185 unless a lot of luck and ideal circumstances causes it to increase to up to 195. On the other hand, back luck and injuries could cause it to max at, say, 150.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But that would not happen. Arguero, being the prodigy that he is, his lowest PA will be 170. The difference between the system I suggest and the one being used is that players now have a say with how the PA of a player turns out.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 00:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DirtyJoe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sheer Class:
You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

absolutly true.

I remember Zidane on one of the 1st CMs. he sucked. and just in next year's he was one of the best...

there is also one big problem with PA, if player with high PA isn't playing and being injured and the other with lower PA plays every game, so how can the 1st one become better player?

talent separates good players from exellant. but talent is player ability- attributes.

chopper99
19-12-2007, 00:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DirtyJoe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sheer Class:
You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to Gascoign, Le Tissier, Liniker and Best. These were all naturally talented players who weren't really bothered about training and that sort of thing yet they still shone out above many other, harder working players.

If you take two kids at 15 and one is miles ahead of the other in terms of natural talent then no amount of training will make the other player better than the naturally talented one. Unless the naturally talented player just completely stops playing football and turns into a fat knacker. But that will never happen in FM.

For me a kids potential depends on a number of things. Natutal talent due to genetics being one. The amount of football they play from an early age and the environment they grow up in being others. But by the time they are 15 (the age they enter the FM world) there potential and personality is set. So from that point on they're only going to ever be able to reach a certain level. Of course players peak at different times but this is down to Current Ability and not Potential Ability. But by the time a player is around 15, if he hasn't got potential then all the best coaching in the world is only going to improve him as far as his potential will allow.

So for that reason I think the PA system in FM is perfectly fine as it is.

Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

chopper99
19-12-2007, 00:44
Try that again seen as I messed up me quoting last time:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DirtyJoe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sheer Class:
You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to Gascoign, Le Tissier, Liniker and Best. These were all naturally talented players who weren't really bothered about training and that sort of thing yet they still shone out above many other, harder working players.

If you take two kids at 15 and one is miles ahead of the other in terms of natural talent then no amount of training will make the other player better than the naturally talented one. Unless the naturally talented player just completely stops playing football and turns into a fat knacker. But that will never happen in FM.

For me a kids potential depends on a number of things. Natutal talent due to genetics being one. The amount of football they play from an early age and the environment they grow up in being others. But by the time they are 15 (the age they enter the FM world) there potential and personality is set. So from that point on they're only going to ever be able to reach a certain level. Of course players peak at different times but this is down to Current Ability and not Potential Ability. But by the time a player is around 15, if he hasn't got potential then all the best coaching in the world is only going to improve him as far as his potential will allow.

So for that reason I think the PA system in FM is perfectly fine as it is.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 01:05
Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....


life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM.

chopper99
19-12-2007, 01:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....


life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, we can both give rare examples of where something happens but fixed potential does exist in real life. If you take 20 15 year old kids who are all at the same level of ability and give them all the exact same top class coaching until they are 25 then all those players will not end up at exactly the same level. Some will be better than others, some might not make it at all and one or two will probably stand out above the rest. And that's because, despite being similarly matched at 15, they all had differing potentials.

Make no mistake, potential absolutely does exist in real life. It's why people stand out above other people in any sport. If there was no potential many sports would be very boring because all the competitors would just be equal.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 01:26
I think you mixed potential with pesonality.

those 20 kids with same ability; the most dedicated and lucky will sucseed, probably.

I can agree with you that talent separates best from just good, but even Maradona, Jordan or Federer worked hard to became what they are.

tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear...

Optimistic Dave
19-12-2007, 01:29
If only FM Scout worked on real people eh? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If only FM Scout didn't work on FM then all this complaining probably wouldn't happen in the first place.

chopper99
19-12-2007, 01:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well by your reasoning you can find that potential by working hard. I'd say you just don't have that potential.

Do you really think that Maradona, Jordan or Federa worked that much harder than the majority of their counterparts? Do you not think they simply rose to the top because they were simply more talanted?

stumostro
19-12-2007, 01:46
IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number!

stumostro
19-12-2007, 01:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....


life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but P'rso still had a hypothetical PA, when he quit originaly just no one spotted it because they didn't have Genie scout!

His PA wouldn't have changed just because he quite then decided to try again, that would be his CA that has changed!

Why can't people get that through their heads?

Mitja
19-12-2007, 01:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's exeactly the problem, becouse AI is looking at CA/PA. if there are attributes only, things would be more real, AI should judge more things then just CA/PA. age, presonality and so on...

Bonzo
19-12-2007, 02:01
Here is a good example from my life of Fixed potential and how it is the most realistic of all suggested methods.

I play squash along with my brother. We started playing at the same time. At first I would always beat him because I was bigger, fitter and stronger. However the coaches would alway rave about my brother as the next big thing.

I have since worked as hard as I can to improve my game and my fitness (15hours a week training and playing). My brother has worked less hard (3hours a week messing) and now he regularly kicks my ass.

This is down to him always having a higher natural potential and mine being fixed much lower. I may be closer to my PA but still nowhere near his CA.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 02:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well by your reasoning you can find that potential by working hard . I'd say you just don't have that potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stumostro
19-12-2007, 02:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's exeactly the problem, becouse AI is looking at CA/PA. if there are attributes only, things would be more real, AI should judge more things then just CA/PA. age, presonality and so on... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand your point but i don't think it makes your argument about having a variable PA any stronger.

I think your argument should be that the AI should look at the attributes rather than the CA/PA, then i would agree, but the fact of the matter is PA should be set in stone just like everyones hypothetical PA is in real life.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 02:44
do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 02:46
..it's like saying life is only black and white. I think it's whole spector of colours and even those which can't be seen by human eyes http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

chopper99
19-12-2007, 02:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're not saying that PA is set when you're born by some mystical being that points at you and says 'you will have a football potential of 150'.

Potential is down to your genes when your born and what happens to you as a child. By the time your 15 and entered the FM game world these things have shaped your potential and at this point it's very vary rare for that to change. Everyone has a point where they've gotten as good as they ever will be.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 02:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe in god or anything like that. The reason there is a fixed PA in real life is because whatever i do no matter how good i am at it there will come to a point where i can get no better or i never reach my potential, it is current ability which changes.

IRL unlike the game we have no way of knowing what our PA is and therefore may or may not ever reach it just like in the game.

It is only because of all these external programs that we know about the PA's of the players.

IRL i am crap at football and my PA would be somewhere around 5 with a CA around 1. No matter how hard i train i will never get better than that, but IRL if have loads of other things which i might excel at, in the game we are only looking at one aspect of a 'persons' PA at everything!!!

Mitja
19-12-2007, 03:07
I can acceept that the game needs somthing like PA, even though there are games that don't have it, like PES, there are only attributes and peak factor-&gt; youngsters can still develop, olds can't. it's more realistic in my opinoum, becouse there should be many factors which determine, will the player develop or not. we had big discussion on that metter before.

why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 03:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!!

Mitja
19-12-2007, 03:17
...and then suddenly those youngsters, in FM09 they'll have PA-9.

xouman
19-12-2007, 03:20
Same discussion again? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I think similar to Mitja, PA does not exist IRL. Future is something absolutely unpredictable. you can say "tomorrow sun will raise again. Even if it's cloudy and you can't see it, it will be there.". You really don't know it, but you suppose that it will happen as always has happened until today. Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.

-I have agreed that physical attributes have a limit for each player, at least before bionical elements appear in the game http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

-But I think that mental attributes do not have a limit. I agree that some of these attributes won't hardly change with normal conditions (player's talent or creativity usually don't change in all their career), but others will do (for example work rating or team work). And some events could change "static" mental attributes (a very inspiring tutor, new role at new club, big injury, amazing year performance...)

-And then technical attributes. No limit for me, but maybe there could be a maximum all-around improving (let's say 10 points in a year of improvement). Every player can have a &gt;18 value in dribbling, marking, finishing, passing... if he trains really hard. Yes, everybody can with properly conditions, but of course focusing so much on an skill would make losing other attributes or tiring player. Remember one thing: a technical attribute does little by itself, even if it's a 20. What does a player with 20 in dribbling do with 3 pace, acceleration, balance and technique? he won't go too far being so slow, and often he will lose himself the ball because having few technique. Why do you want a 20 in finishing if you have 3 in off the ball, composure, technique? you won't have many chances, and then you will miss lots of them due to nerves or poor shot. marking is not useful if you haven't strenght to take the ball, concentration to be alert... and passing is not useful if you don't have creativity, decissions, technique...

So for me, only one kind of the attributes should have a clear limit. So PA has little effect.

And all that good players that were better than others even with less training, that was due to initial attributes, not due hidden values. They had't "hard" mental attributes (work rating, team work...) but yes creativity ones. And technically spoken, they weren't better than others, just more focused (IRL a player with 20 finishing 1 tackling is better than a 15 finishing 10 tackling). Most of those players could have improved quite their physical attributes, but just don't needed it.

How many "points" had gascoigne or maradona improved from 18 to 25? Not a lot I guess. But they had great initial skills.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 03:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
...and then suddenly those youngsters, in FM09 they'll have PA-9. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes because the resarchers previous guess was proved wrong.

They need to code it so that the game has rules to work from! Thats how computer programs work a series of codes and rules!!! Its not real life!

Mitja
19-12-2007, 03:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you prooved my point http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CA should be player's attributes. potential shouldn't be known/ set.

age, playing factor (level in which player plays/not), training facilities, personality and injuries are things which should determine how much can player improve.

of course youngster with all his att set to 1, can't be good player, even if all other aspects are in his feavour. on contrary, "naturaly gifted" youngster, who is given a chance to play can become good player, even if he is not most hard working person.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 03:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game!

stumostro
19-12-2007, 03:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you prooved my point http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CA should be player's attributes. potential shouldn't be known/ set.

age, playing factor (level in which player plays/not), training facilities, personality and injuries are things which should determine how much can player improve.

of course youngster with all his att set to 1, can't be good player, even if all other aspects are in his feavour. on contrary, "naturaly gifted" youngster, who is given a chance to play can become good player, even if he is not most hard working person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But they aren't know unless you cheat and use an external program!!!!!

stumostro
19-12-2007, 03:31
Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential.

chopper99
19-12-2007, 03:39
Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work?

The argument that mental attributes should have no limit is flawed as in all aspects of life people who've had similar up-bringings have different mental capacities and personalities. You can't just change or develop mental skills indefinitely. Like anything else you'll have a limit and if you ever reach that limit that will be it, you simply won't be able to improve any more.

And the argument for no limit on technical attributes is the most flawed for me. That's basically the same as saying that with the right amount of training I will be able to dribble like Maradona, Best or Ronaldo. I'll be able to shoot like Shearer and pass like Beckham. This is so not true it's unbelievable.

I really don't understand how people can't grasp the fact that the reason all sports don't just have loads of completely equal competitors, why some people are better than others, is because some people have the natural ability to be that bit better while others ability can only take them so far.

nick1408
19-12-2007, 03:43
i think there should be more negitive PA's but with smaller increments so that all players could be randomly generated within say a range of 10- 15 instead of (off the top of my head) a range of 40. I agree that PA shouldn't be set but a bit of a truer "fog of war" would include all players having a element of randomness in them.

For m example a player of Wayne Rooney could be in the top range of say 190-200 PA so that when the game generates he could fall anywhere in there.

Maybe also with more negitive potentials we ould have small ranges of say 5 at the top end to ranges of 30 at the bottom end. There is no reason that ranges couldn't overlap to make the "fog" a bit more of an element of randomness.

To me this seems logical to me but I am prepared for this to be picked to pieces and told how wrong I am.

chopper99
19-12-2007, 03:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nick1408:
i think there should be more negitive PA's but with smaller increments so that all players could be randomly generated within say a range of 10- 15 instead of (off the top of my head) a range of 40. I agree that PA shouldn't be set but a bit of a truer "fog of war" would include all players having a element of randomness in them.

For m example a player of Wayne Rooney could be in the top range of say 190-200 PA so that when the game generates he could fall anywhere in there.

Maybe also with more negitive potentials we ould have small ranges of say 5 at the top end to ranges of 30 at the bottom end. There is no reason that ranges couldn't overlap to make the "fog" a bit more of an element of randomness.

To me this seems logical to me but I am prepared for this to be picked to pieces and told how wrong I am. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good idea. Although it would create a little more randomness as to which players developed from save to save it would still keep the most imprtant element; the fact that each players PA is set and that's the best they'll ever be.

chopper99
19-12-2007, 04:04
I'd just like to point out at this juncture that although I'm completely against scrapping PA completely I do think there are ways in which a players development can be improved.

I think PA should remain as is for technical and physical attributes. I do believe though that a players chance of reaching this PA should be impacted more by their mental attributes. Things like determination and possibly work rate should have a big impact on how quickly a player progresses towards their peak ability. Having players with low scores in these attributes tutored by older players should have a direct effect on things like determination and teamwork, and in-turn a direct effect on their ability to reach their potential.

As for mental attributes in general, I think these should be more goverened by experience than the same PA/CA system used or physical and mental attributes. The more experience of playing in important games the more certain mental attributes should improve. So a seasoned champions league campaigner who's won things should have noticeably higher mental attributes than many other players. Currently menatal attributes are based solely on CA and PA but I feel this is one area where a little more flexibility is needed.

johnnydude
19-12-2007, 04:16
I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 04:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:
I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so!

chopper99
19-12-2007, 04:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:
.

[QUOTE] Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is just current ability. A talanted youngster will have high abilities because his CA is already high. This has ne bearing whatsoever on his potential.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But by definition potential is the best you can ever be. So there's no need for it to start high and then fall to match the players mental attributes. The fact is it should have been whatever value it falls to to start with because that's the best that player was ever going to be.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again this is CA. His PA is the best he could ever be if everthing went absolutely perfect for him. How he pans out over his important developing years are all to do with his CA.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 04:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no they can't. if player natural ability is bad he won't be given a chance to play, which is far more important then training facilities.

Themistofelis
19-12-2007, 04:29
I like the FIFA way more, each player has a fixed amount of talent and then coaches, facilities ,luck , 1st team football and character are affecting his development .
Also the tutoring should have big impact despite age , i can think many of my favorite club's players that improved after a season of playing together with big names (i can even think of a guy that improved alot while he was 28 years old).

chopper99
19-12-2007, 04:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no they can't. if player natural ability is bad he won't be given a chance to play, which is far more important then training facilities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you're still sticking by the fact that if you were manager of a top team and did just decide to play him you could make any player world class as there would be no limit to their potential as long as they got the coaching and the games?

stumostro
19-12-2007, 04:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
I like the FIFA way more, each player has a fixed amount of talent and then coaches, facilities ,luck , 1st team football and character are affecting his development .
Also the tutoring should have big impact despite age , i can think many of my favorite club's players that improved after a season of playing together with big names (i can even think of a guy that improved alot while he was 28 years old). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it??

Soton
19-12-2007, 04:39
No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained.

Kawee
19-12-2007, 04:40
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not in numbers, but in words we can. I find it very frustrating that a 17 year old is "currently close to his full potential."

Themistofelis
19-12-2007, 04:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .
I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.
In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 04:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kawee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not in numbers, but in words we can. I find it very frustrating that a 17 year old is "currently close to his full potential." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But thats what happens IRL, a Man Utd scout isn't going to look at a team of League 2 players and say that we should sign them all because they all have the potential to be absolutly brilliant!

Some players will only ever reach League 2 level because of their natural ability.

Just like not everyone has the brains to be a rocket scientist, not everyone has the potential to be the best footballer in the world!

stumostro
19-12-2007, 04:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .
I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.
In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 04:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .
I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.
In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plus as for the destiny thing, surely thats the same in real life? I know my PA as a footballer is crap, hence why i've never tried for a proffesional club! No matter how hard i train i'll never be as good as someone like Rooney

Themistofelis
19-12-2007, 04:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it is not , a player will still improve until a serious injury or age make his skills decline , of course it is up to you if you are willing to play a guy for 10 years in order to turn him world class or invest in a more talented that will become top after only 2 seasons.

bc1sjw
19-12-2007, 04:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PA has been variable in FM for about the last 4/5 versions - when a player has like -7/-8 PA it means they have the potential for their PA to develop to a set range eg 155 - 165.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 04:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it is not , a player will still improve until a serious injury or age make his skills decline , of course it is up to you if you are willing to play a guy for 10 years in order to turn him world class or invest in a more talented that will become top after only 2 seasons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work!

johnnydude
19-12-2007, 04:59
in a way it depends on how you are looking at PA.

I was taking my point from earlier in a way that used PA as a bench mark for the unknown. In my example I was thinking that if the youngster is taken on board at a certian level within football be it championship or conference etc then he has a certain degree of potential that the scout has seen. His CA would be low as he needs to develop. As they gain a better understanding of his mental ways his PA could feasibly drop as he has not got the heart etc. This was why I thought PA should be high as the younster is technically an unknown quantity. At 14/15 you may have the potential to be as good as Maradona but your might not display that skill ever because you dont develop or have not got the right coaches or natural ability.

However thinking on it in terms of the game i suppose it is used as a benchmark for the processing to make sure that they have a limit straight away. Potential will therefore always be the same and the computer has determined that this is the best a player will ever be.

Although in real life the potential someone has may fluctuate the player can not meet or surpass his potential I can fully understand why this is not happening in the game and on hindsight fully believe that having the set PA in game is the right way to do it.

Themistofelis
19-12-2007, 05:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad .

Mitja
19-12-2007, 05:06
I wouldn't like to get into hypotetical discusion here. the fact is that if you're smart enough you'll play your best youngsters.

and I just can't see how could some realy bad player improve to world class, his potential is limited by his ability at the moment plus he wouldn't be given chance to play in top team.

but hypoteticaly, I thin even worst youngster could become decent player if he was given a chance to play a lot in a team like Man U, but this is only hypoteticaly, it wouldn't happen.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 05:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, how would that work, it wouldn't be anything like real life to sign a bunch of 19yos and they all turn out to be the best players in their positions.

FM is a replication of how it works in real lfe, no club pins their hopes on their youth team.

It sounds like you want FM to be a communist game where everyone has an equal chance dispite obvious examples where it isn't possible!

Mitja
19-12-2007, 05:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

absolutly true.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 05:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
I wouldn't like to get into hypotetical discusion here. the fact is that if you're smart enough you'll play your best youngsters.

and I just can't see how could some realy bad player improve to world class, his potential is limited by his ability at the moment plus he wouldn't be given chance to play in top team.

but hypoteticaly, I thin even worst youngster could become decent player if he was given a chance to play a lot in a team like Man U, but this is only hypoteticaly, it wouldn't happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is good when you can play your best youngsters, but just because you are young doesn't mean you're gonna make it.

Its starting to sound like X factor where someone who clearly can't sing thinks that given some vocal coaching they can be the next big thing, it'll never happen.

And yes bad players won't be given a chance to play in a top team simply because they're a bad player, thats how the game/life works IRL.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 05:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:
No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

best reply on this metter ever.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 05:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

absolutly true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok so if you want a game just for fun play FIFA, if you want some realism added in play FM.

hee163
19-12-2007, 05:24
In response to the original post...

You have summed up the current system entirely.

You, or me for instance, had a low CA when we were younger, and a slightly higher PA - a level which you could reach if you were given the right 'football upbringing' from an early stage.

Since neither of us were given the 'football upbringing' required to fulfil our potential, our CA remained at a low lever, and our PA is now just a legacy of what we could have achieved.

As suche there is no need to have variable PA, as long as the majority of players don't reach their full potential, which has been a problem in previous versions of the game, but less so these days.

xouman
19-12-2007, 05:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose).

butts
19-12-2007, 05:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:
No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

best reply on this metter ever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Surely what your saying soton is a case for it not to be changed. As has already been stated PA is the best you will ever be and not everyone reaches there full potential in FM. Which means what you are saying is just a case for it to stay the same as in FM not everyone will actually reach their full potential but no-one ever IRL or in the game will exceed their potential as its physically impossible.

postal postie
19-12-2007, 05:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:
all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.
we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.
if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is no PA IRE. how many times we seen PA changing to some player. it's just simplefied version of how things should be.

I would settle for variable PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's only because SI got the PA wrong in the first place.
doesn't mean that it changes in real life.
then again we can't moan that SI got it wrong because it's no visible in real life.

postal postie
19-12-2007, 05:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neville_Roach:
If Potential Ability dosnt need to change, as others have noted this is natural; its the best you could be - Then how can you tell this in a player at any age? Your asking a game to predict how good this player can be based on very little evidence at a very young age.

This suits the game because its easy to code, and everything in game seems to be related to ability so its quite a big factor, but i think the fluctuation between dvelopment would hit bugs...and oh...please not any more... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the game isn't predicting anything. the developers are doing that.
if we're talking about regens then again the game isn't predicting anything. because the game has generated these players it's also generated how good they can be. IT KNOWS EVERYTHING!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stumostro
19-12-2007, 05:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the answer to the the problem is that the scouts and AI shouldn't be able to read the PA correctly and only read the CA and make a guess at the PA. As it happens IRL, scouts only guess the PA.

Soton
19-12-2007, 05:32
The system should be changed because it is possible to reach you're potential.

postal postie
19-12-2007, 05:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kawee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think this is pretty good idea. Anyone under have no set PA. But not like 1-200. Sergio Arguero start off with not a set PA, but a possibility of 170-200 PA. Then depending on how he develops, his PA will be set when he turns 21. IT could be 185 it could be 195. But it depends on his development and not just determined since the beginning of the game. Then one turn 21, there are no more changes to the PA. Just a matter of maximizing his now-set PA.

This idea would please those who wish for variable PA. But it would also please those who wish for it to be set. And it would prevent big clubs from creating super talents every year because although it is possible to maximize a youngster's PA, his PA can still only go so high. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you didn't know about PAs would you be bothered if it was varable or not?
no. because as far as your concerned its the same either way. sometimes the player becomes good. others they stay rubbish.
people should stop looking at the CA/PA http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

stumostro
19-12-2007, 05:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:
No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

best reply on this metter ever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!

postal postie
19-12-2007, 05:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the answer to the the problem is that the scouts and AI shouldn't be able to read the PA correctly and only read the CA and make a guess at the PA. As it happens IRL, scouts only guess the PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i believe this happens already.
my scout told me that a player would reach a certain level. i bought him and he changed his mind and said he would be even better.
my couches recommend that i get rid of most of my youth players. but after awhile they tend to like them.
so coaches and the like do not so an absolute PA

Soton
19-12-2007, 05:37
"So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!"

I'm not saying that at all, read my post again!

stumostro
19-12-2007, 05:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:
"So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!"

I'm not saying that at all, read my post again! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats exactly what you're implying, you state that everyone has a full potential i.e. PA and that due to circumstances that no one ever reaches their PA i.e. their CA.

If thats not what you mean think you need to reword what your trying to say.

Soton
19-12-2007, 05:47
"So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control."

What i'm saying is that even if rooney has a PA of 198 he's CA will never reach 198.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 05:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:
"So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control."

What i'm saying is that even if rooney has a PA of 198 he's CA will never reach 198. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that what i said? 170 was an example number.

djsills
19-12-2007, 05:52
personally i think all PAs should be set higher but player development redesigned so no player ever reaches his PA.

What majorly bugs me is when a player reaches his PA so he can no longer improve at all.

I also don't think mental attributes should be set under PA at all. A player's mental attributes are constantly changing. I could spend ages explaining this but hopefully a quick example will help.

My striker is selfish and has a low teamwork rating. I might tell him in training that if he refuses to pass i won't play him and IRL this might change his style of play (in game this would be represented by an attribute rise in teamwork). However, currently in game my striker is playing close to his potential so his teamwork can't dramatically rise unless some of his other attributes fall.

xouman
19-12-2007, 05:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not saying that players improve at fine pace forever, I'm saying that players stop improving for argumentable and visible things, not mystically. Of couse all players stop improving, and then they could improve again, but in a moment of their career they start losing skill.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The argument that mental attributes should have no limit is flawed as in all aspects of life people who've had similar up-bringings have different mental capacities and personalities. You can't just change or develop mental skills indefinitely. Like anything else you'll have a limit and if you ever reach that limit that will be it, you simply won't be able to improve any more.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not saying that a player will improve normally in all mental aspects. What's the limit for your aggression? Maybe it's currently at 5, no matter how your coach tries to modify it. Then you have problems at home, maybe you have been tackled very hard, and you are suddenly not the same person and your aggression has increased a lot. Under normal circunstances it would never happen. All people could have aggression of 20 under certain circunstances, maybe extreme, although very few could have pace of 20. Agreed, very few people will reach 20 in aggression, but everybody has a little chance to have it under limit circunstanecs.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
And the argument for no limit on technical attributes is the most flawed for me. That's basically the same as saying that with the right amount of training I will be able to dribble like Maradona, Best or Ronaldo. I'll be able to shoot like Shearer and pass like Beckham. This is so not true it's unbelievable.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, training for years focusing in dribbling,you can dribble as the. But without agility, balance, technique, pace, acceleration, decisions, flair... dribbling is 20% of a real dribble, so you won't past after most conference defenders with crap attributes even if your dribble is 20. I have seen on tv people who does amazing things with the ball, better than any (or almost any) proffessional player in the world. But they are at circus, don't play football because a technica skill without other skills (mental, technical and physical) does nothing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I really don't understand how people can't grasp the fact that the reason all sports don't just have loads of completely equal competitors, why some people are better than others, is because some people have the natural ability to be that bit better while others ability can only take them so far. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are better not because are born gifted, but because of lots of things. They could have better initial skills due to genetic, but that's not all at all.

Maradona was himself because great because he had impressive technical attributes, some very good mental attributes and played accordingly to his physical attributes. physical attributes were mostly affected by genetic. Mental attributes were due to familiar situation and way of living, and the fact he loved football. And technical attributes were due to lots of football playing in the street and he tried constantly to improve.

But I'm not talking why maradona was when he appeared in proffessional football, but about the way he improved. PA is just a limit in how a player can improve. Best or Gascoigne didn't improve more when they started proffessional football than other players with same age an conditions, they just had better attributes from the beginning.

PA is needed because players improving is not quite good IMHO, with a very good improving system it would be useless.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 06:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
PA is needed because players improving is not quite good IMHO, with a very good improving system it would be useless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could have sworn based on all your posts you were against having a PA!

Soton
19-12-2007, 06:01
I agree strongly with djsills and xouman posts.

xouman
19-12-2007, 06:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:
I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 06:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:
I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But i like alot of other people have very poor technical abilities, whereas he has immense technical abilities. So your saying that if his CA at his prime was 198 mine would be 98? Thats good for a conference player! I wouldn't stand a chance at conference level! My CA would be around 10 at the most!!!

Themistofelis
19-12-2007, 06:25
You think Genaro Gatuzo has any technical skill at all? he just play with mental and physical good sportsmen and characters can play in proffesional level if they are committed to their work

xouman
19-12-2007, 06:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
Just like not everyone has the brains to be a rocket scientist, not everyone has the potential to be the best footballer in the world! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brains are more or less for a rocket scientist (RS) what physical attributes are for a footballer. A person with 0 brains couldn't be RS, a person with 0 phys can't play football (think of maradona without legs).

But if you take 20 children aged 3 and teach them in order to be RS, all those who are interested in it will success. Those who don't like to read, who don't study, who are more intrested in other areas, won't be RS, the other ones could be.

davidnsquires
19-12-2007, 06:26
For the vast majority of situations I think the potential ability method is the way to go. There is a small number of situations where it isn't, but I'm not sure it warrants the extra programming that would be required.

I'm actually going to take an example from another sport, cycling. Lance Armstrong was a world class cyclist (including winning a world championship in his early 20s), but because of his build he was never going to win the Tour de France. Of course, after recovering from cancer his build and physiology had changed to such an extent that he was a completely different kind of cyclist. The result is that he was able to go onto win 7 Tours (de France). One might argue that his potential was increased by the cancer, but it wasn't. The potential was always there, but required major changes to be reached. Without the cancer he would have been successful, but probably no-where nearly as successful as he was following the cancer.

I think it could work if major events altered potential slightly, but probably only negatively or selectively on certain characteristics. So, a player who suffered a couple of severe hamstring injuries may have a similar or slightly reduced potential, but his injury proneness would increase (due to torn hamstrings being problematic in the future). Also, the potential gains in his pace and acceleration might decrease. The injury shouldn't necassarily affect his passing or anticipation or whatever other potential, but could certainly have an impact on certain areas.

Mitja
19-12-2007, 06:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:
I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But i like alot of other people have very poor technical abilities, whereas he has immense technical abilities. So your saying that if his CA at his prime was 198 mine would be 98? Thats good for a conference player! I wouldn't stand a chance at conference level! My CA would be around 10 at the most!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

are you a pro player? not. all he wanted to say is that Maradona was far better player at 14 then any other 14 year old kid. and that was his potential-being much better. he was spoted, he played in first argentinian league at age of 16 or smth. that's why he had all potential in the world.

but he never played to his ful potential, due to his personality and fame, he couldn't handle.
there is no such training facility which could make you or me new Maradona.

playing football on top level (senior) is the main thing for youngsters to improve. not facilities. that's why england or switzarland don't have best football youth. brazil has. why? becouse there are things that can't be learn by coaches, you just have it/not (learn it on the street...) but to sucseed globaly you have to play big matches.

even you and I might have become decent players if Ferguson gived us chance to play....but he didn't. we don't even play real football.

Herter
19-12-2007, 06:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:
No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.. all players, even Kaka, Ronaldinho, Robinho, Ronaldo, can get better

xouman
19-12-2007, 06:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the answer to the the problem is that the scouts and AI shouldn't be able to read the PA correctly and only read the CA and make a guess at the PA. As it happens IRL, scouts only guess the PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. I think that Soton has found the clue, I forgot KISS rule (Keep It Simple Stupid).

IRL PA is NEVER achieved, no matter what you do. So make a PA that can be achieved is unrealistic, and make a PA that is never achieved is stupid.

Then the problem is "when should a player stop improving?". I can give my opinion, but best open new thread.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 06:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:
I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But i like alot of other people have very poor technical abilities, whereas he has immense technical abilities. So your saying that if his CA at his prime was 198 mine would be 98? Thats good for a conference player! I wouldn't stand a chance at conference level! My CA would be around 10 at the most!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

are you a pro player? not. all he wanted to say is that Maradona was far better player at 14 then any other 14 year old kid. and that was his potential-being much better. he was spoted, he played in first argentinian league at age of 16 or smth. that's why he had all potential in the world.

but he never played to his ful potential, due to his personality and fame, he couldn't handle.
there is no such training facility which could make you or me new Maradona.

playing football on top level (senior) is the main thing for youngsters to improve. not facilities. that's why england or switzarland don't have best football youth. brazil has. why? becouse there are things that can't be learn by coaches, you just have it/not (learn it on the street...) but to sucseed globaly you have to play big matches.

even you and I might have become decent players if Ferguson gived us chance to play....but he didn't. we don't even play real football. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've just said i'd be nowhere near good enough to be a pro player http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This just seems to be going round in circles.

The system needs a PA for the game to work.

Would it be more suitable to have a seperate PA for Technical, Physical and Mental attributes, maybe.

Does anyone know whether getting to full PA in real life is achievable, who knows, no one can catagorically say that player X could improve even though they're at the top of their game.

The original post was saying that the PA needs changing, but it should be the CA which needs looking at because that is what determins how good a player is at a certain point in time.

xouman
19-12-2007, 06:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
PA is needed because players improving is not quite good IMHO, with a very good improving system it would be useless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could have sworn based on all your posts you were against having a PA! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am against having a PA... but with rigth circunstances! Without a good improving system, lots of players would improve to 200CA if PA would not exist. So now PA is absolutely needed.

But with a very good improving system, PA would not be useful, only an innatural limit. I want that improving system. Not easy, I know, but everybody has his wishes hehe

PA is like democracy, the worst system apart from those "tested by now" http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

xouman
19-12-2007, 07:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:
I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But i like alot of other people have very poor technical abilities, whereas he has immense technical abilities. So your saying that if his CA at his prime was 198 mine would be 98? Thats good for a conference player! I wouldn't stand a chance at conference level! My CA would be around 10 at the most!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I didn't explained correctly.

Those great players and you had same mental and technical potential at 14. Their technical skills were so better than you that no known miracles could make that yours equalice them. Also their mental skills were surely far and far beyond yours, and only a microchip on your brain could do anything in order to equalize their mental attributes http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

You had maybe a 0.000000001% of chances of equalizing them. And only if you have really tried to play football. But there was not an invisible barrier, only your CA was crap

xouman
19-12-2007, 07:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
You think Genaro Gatuzo has any technical skill at all? he just play with mental and physical good sportsmen and characters can play in proffesional level if they are committed to their work </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact he has marking, 1-2's, tackling, a bit of passing... still you are right, what makes him brilliant are not technical attributes, but mental and physical.

but what's the point about that

Mitja
19-12-2007, 07:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
PA is needed because players improving is not quite good IMHO, with a very good improving system it would be useless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could have sworn based on all your posts you were against having a PA! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am against having a PA... but with rigth circunstances! Without a good improving system, lots of players would improve to 200CA if PA would not exist. So now PA is absolutely needed.

But with a very good improving system, PA would not be useful, only an innatural limit. I want that improving system. Not easy, I know, but everybody has his wishes hehe

PA is like democracy, the worst system apart from those "tested by now" http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there are games which don't have PA/CA, only attributes. it si not that hard. also we know what affects, if player will improve. now it is simply, if facilites/coaches are good, player with high PA will improve no metter he is playing or not.

even bigger problem is that AI is looking for CA/PA. and we can't see it like AI can.without this system things would be harder (for AI as well as humans) and moe realistic. does Wenger ask god for one's PA when he is trying to sign him. I don't think so, it's a risky buisness, sometimes you win, sometimes loose.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 07:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
even bigger problem is that AI is looking for CA/PA. and we can't see it like AI can.without this system things would be harder (for AI as well as humans) and moe realistic. does Wenger ask god for one's PA when he is trying to sign him. I don't think so, it's a risky buisness, sometimes you win, sometimes loose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the AI looks at the PA, but if it was that heavily weighted in the favour of the AI, what chance would the human managers have of signing certain players? As every AI manager can see the PA as a number how come these players don't get snapped up straight away by them before we even have the chance to scout them in the game?

xouman
19-12-2007, 07:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
even bigger problem is that AI is looking for CA/PA. and we can't see it like AI can.without this system things would be harder (for AI as well as humans) and moe realistic. does Wenger ask god for one's PA when he is trying to sign him. I don't think so, it's a risky buisness, sometimes you win, sometimes loose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the AI looks at the PA, but if it was that heavily weighted in the favour of the AI, what chance would the human managers have of signing certain players? As every AI manager can see the PA as a number how come these players don't get snapped up straight away by them before we even have the chance to scout them in the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the AI looks at the PA, but if it was that heavily weighted in the favour of the AI, what chance would the human managers have of signing certain players? As every AI manager can see the PA as a number how come these players don't get snapped up straight away by them before we even have the chance to scout them in the game?

There are sometimes players scouted by several or more teams, but their mates with same conditions are not scouted at all event being younger, having better attributes or performing better. Wegner signed fabregas because he was the best of his mates at that moment, if he'd had a better mate then, wegner should have signed that mate.

Without PA, managers should have own rules to choose better prospects. Some would be quite common, some not. For example some managers want fast strikers, others prefer them stronger, tall, with good shoot, with nice pass... quite a messy but great if possible.

stumostro
19-12-2007, 08:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
even bigger problem is that AI is looking for CA/PA. and we can't see it like AI can.without this system things would be harder (for AI as well as humans) and moe realistic. does Wenger ask god for one's PA when he is trying to sign him. I don't think so, it's a risky buisness, sometimes you win, sometimes loose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the AI looks at the PA, but if it was that heavily weighted in the favour of the AI, what chance would the human managers have of signing certain players? As every AI manager can see the PA as a number how come these players don't get snapped up straight away by them before we even have the chance to scout them in the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the AI looks at the PA, but if it was that heavily weighted in the favour of the AI, what chance would the human managers have of signing certain players? As every AI manager can see the PA as a number how come these players don't get snapped up straight away by them before we even have the chance to scout them in the game?

There are sometimes players scouted by several or more teams, but their mates with same conditions are not scouted at all event being younger, having better attributes or performing better. Wegner signed fabregas because he was the best of his mates at that moment, if he'd had a better mate then, wegner should have signed that mate.

Without PA, managers should have own rules to choose better prospects. Some would be quite common, some not. For example some managers want fast strikers, others prefer them stronger, tall, with good shoot, with nice pass... quite a messy but great if possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not sure what you mean by 'mate' it doesn't make sense in the context of your thread 'Wegner signed fabregas because he was the best of his mates at that moment' = Wegner signed fabregas because he was the best of his friends at that moment.

Mravac Kid
19-12-2007, 08:56
The feeling I got from this thread is that PA isn't the problem, but rather that the starting CA should be more closely related to PA... so you can see from a player what he's probably going to be like in the future.

Which is of course simply wrong, because there's lots of players who seem to be very good but simply don't progress any further, while their teammates who were less capable when they were younger develop past them.
And there's also players who don't seem to be anything special, but then have an absolute stormer of a season and rocket forward in ability.

I think the game mimics this reasonably close.

SkidRo
19-12-2007, 09:02
wat if they just demolish potential ability and just have current ability. in truth you can have an idea of how good a player is but how is that judged in real life :

- through performance
- how well they are doing in training
- maybe some other things buit i cant think right now lol

i think it shud be up to us to determine how good they will become for the team depending on how well they are doing in the game an dtheir current ability just raises or drops depending on how good/bad they are perfroming.
including potential ability just limits how good a player can become no matter what and scouts and coaches shudnt be so accurate it makes it too easy to determine who to buy, sell, ect

DMaster2
19-12-2007, 09:05
I think that PA is a worng system.
For me the best one is the one used in PES (!) but of course it can't be used like it is now in FM.
The major point is that all player improve. It's pointless to say me and you are crap and we remain crap forever no matter what because we are people sit in a chair writing in a FM forum,not professional players that train 5/6 days a week then play games at sunday.
If a player train all day in clubs the develop, they will never be good/world class but they get better day after day until they reach an age that physically stop them to improve.

So it could be a thing like this:
players start with attributes depending on their actual CA then start to improve when they start to train in the game.
Then how level they can reach? Well there are important factor and can be coded in the game with numbers :

- Talent -&gt; is a natural gifted player? Most talented player develop faster than crappier one

- CA -&gt; Starting CA should influence how fast they develop. The higher the CA is the slower the player develop

- Mentality -&gt; Again the mentality affect the improvement of a player. A hard-worker professional player develop faster than a lazier one

- Age -&gt; As the player grow older the development should slow down, then when the pick age is reached (depending on mentality and role) the player start to become weaker

- Coach Staff -&gt; The better the staff is the faster the player develop

- Facilities -&gt; The better the facilities the faster a player will develop

- First team experience

- Others

Then all these stat are combined in an equation (the weight of the single point is determined by SI,) and the result would be a stat called Development Speed. This stat would determine the speed of the growth of a player.
A player will grow as fast as the Development Speed is and will stop increase when his pick age is reached,then his stat (especially the physical one) start to decrease.

xouman
19-12-2007, 09:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

Im not sure what you mean by 'mate' it doesn't make sense in the context of your thread 'Wegner signed fabregas because he was the best of his mates at that moment' = Wegner signed fabregas because he was the best of his friends at that moment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I mean that fabregas was the best among other players playing in the same team. If a player in the team where fabregas was playing at 15 had been better, wegner'd bought that player instead Fabregas.

Sorry, I know my english su_cks ^_^

Mitja
19-12-2007, 12:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMaster2:
I think that PA is a worng system.
For me the best one is the one used in PES (!) but of course it can't be used like it is now in FM.
The major point is that all player improve. It's pointless to say me and you are crap and we remain crap forever no matter what because we are people sit in a chair writing in a FM forum,not professional players that train 5/6 days a week then play games at sunday.
If a player train all day in clubs the develop, they will never be good/world class but they get better day after day until they reach an age that physically stop them to improve.

So it could be a thing like this:
players start with attributes depending on their actual CA then start to improve when they start to train in the game.
Then how level they can reach? Well there are important factor and can be coded in the game with numbers :

- Talent -&gt; is a natural gifted player? Most talented player develop faster than crappier one

- CA -&gt; Starting CA should influence how fast they develop. The higher the CA is the slower the player develop

- Mentality -&gt; Again the mentality affect the improvement of a player. A hard-worker professional player develop faster than a lazier one

- Age -&gt; As the player grow older the development should slow down, then when the pick age is reached (depending on mentality and role) the player start to become weaker

- Coach Staff -&gt; The better the staff is the faster the player develop

- Facilities -&gt; The better the facilities the faster a player will develop

- First team experience

- Others

Then all these stat are combined in an equation (the weight of the single point is determined by SI,) and the result would be a stat called Development Speed. This stat would determine the speed of the growth of a player.
A player will grow as fast as the Development Speed is and will stop increase when his pick age is reached,then his stat (especially the physical one) start to decrease. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's about it.

only in my opinoum player shouldn't improve much if he is not given first team football. that was very good years ago on CM. if you gave your youngster a long run in the 1st team he improved drasticly.

x42bn6
19-12-2007, 14:00
In real life, does any player have a limit to how good they can be?

In real life, if age was not a factor, could Blue Square Premier winger Joe Average become as good as Cristiano Ronaldo today?

Do players ever reach their limit, if it exists?

I for one wouldn't advocate a limit for potential ability, but a ceiling sounds simple. When a player approaches this limit, the potential ability also increases, but at a very slow rate.

James.Clench
19-12-2007, 16:59
Wow thanks for all your post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif, I didn’t think I’d get such a response. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway after reading your replies I think that I have come to agree with those who are in favour of not making PA variable (more on that later). But I do still believe that PA shouldn’t be given until you hit 18/19.

Looking back to my school days again I remember that 14 and 15 was a very different age for everyone, whilst many of us where covered in acne, some kids balls had only just dropped, and others could grow beards (like Rooney). I mean if Man Utd came across two identically gifted and passionate players, one who is fresh faced high pitch talking 14 year old kid, and one who is a beard growing 6ft tall 15 year old manboy, then it’s a fair bet to say that the Man Utd coaches would be able to develop the 14 year old kid to be a better player than the manboy. That’s why I don’t believe that PA’s should be given until a player hits 18 or 19.

I think that someone hit on a good solution in making PA affect certain stats differently, IRL you could take any player (even with an adjudged PA to be 1) at 14 who had 1 for pace and acceleration and turn them into someone who could run 100 meters in under 11 seconds by the time they where 21, yet this is impossible on the game. (which is probably more of a training issue than a PA one)

“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink” I think this expression best sums up the reason why I believe that PA shouldn’t be variable. For instance you could give 100 new born babies a pure football upbringing, I mean the full works academies, private coaches, fitness regimes, etc etc, and they would all turn out different, they would all be pretty good, but there would still be some that stood out, and some that faded away, and there would be no guarantee that any would turn out world class. I don’t believe that the latter is down to been “Naturally gifted” in fact I don’t believe that such a thing exists at all, I do believe however that some people are quicker at learning than others, and are able to improve themselves (without coaching) a lot faster and more effectively than others, which is all about there PA, and is why 100 babies would all turn out different.

In conclusion I would keep PA the same, and not make it variable, but I would like to see it affect certain stats differently, the more technique and mentally based the stat, then the more PA should affect it, and the less it should improve the closer the player got to his PA, yet the more athletic the stat then the less PA should influence it, any player who’s CA is equally to their PA could learn to run faster, jump higher, last longer or be stronger. I would also like to see the training tweaked, but that’s for another day.

Soton
19-12-2007, 17:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
After reading your replies I think that I have come to agree with those who are in favour of not making PA variable (more on that later). But I do still believe that PA shouldn’t be given until you hit 18/19.

I think that someone hit on a good solution in making PA affect certain stats differently, IRL you could take any player (even with an adjudged PA to be 1) at 14 who had 1 for pace and acceleration and turn them into someone who could run 100 meters in under 11 seconds by the time they where 21, yet this is impossible on the game. (which is probably more of a training issue than a PA one)

“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink” I think this expression best sums up the reason why I believe that PA shouldn’t be variable. For instance you could give 100 new born babies a pure football upbringing, I mean the full works academies, private coaches, fitness regimes, etc etc, and they would all turn out different, they would all be pretty good, but there would still be some that stood out, and some that faded away, and there would be no guarantee that any would turn out world class. I don’t believe that the latter is down to been “Naturally gifted” in fact I don’t believe that such a thing exists at all, I do believe however that some people are quicker at learning than others, and are able to improve themselves (without coaching) a lot faster and more effectively than others, which is all about there PA, and is why 100 babies would all turn out different.

In conclusion I would keep PA the same, and not make it variable, but I would like to see it affect certain stats differently, the more technique and mentally based the stat, then the more PA should affect it, and the less it should improve the closer the player got to his PA, yet the more athletic the stat then the less PA should influence it, any player who’s CA is equally to their PA could learn to run faster, jump higher, last longer or be stronger. I would also like to see the training tweaked, but that’s for another day. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I think you'll agree that perhaps intelligence is a better word than potential ability. To me intelligence means ability to learn, players like Le Tissier were, in a football sense, utter geniuses. Footballers like Le Tessier could do amazing stuff with the least bit of training.

A player with high intelligence should be able to succeed under less than ideal circumstances, but try-hards like Roy Keane need greater guidance.

James.Clench
19-12-2007, 19:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Correct me if i'm wrong, but I think you'll agree that perhaps intelligence is a better word than potential ability. To me intelligence means ability to learn, players like Le Tissier were, in a football sense, utter geniuses. Footballers like Le Tessier could do amazing stuff with the least bit of training. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and no, Intelligence is certainly a major factor in PA, but I believe the potential of someone incorporates many other factors such as ambition, determination and workrate.

Le Tesseir, for example, was an awesome player and he probably mastered much of his technique quite quickly and without much effort due to his football intellegence, but I bet he was never first on and last off the training field, Beckham on the other hand work hard for hours every day after everyone else had gone home, over years on the training field practising and perfecting his deadballs and crosses until he got it right, and both players turned out very good, but there probably not in in many peoples all time 11. Whereas if Beckham had had Le Tessiers Intellegence, and vise versa then they probably would have been better players

Soton
19-12-2007, 19:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
I do believe however that some people are quicker at learning than others, and are able to improve themselves (without coaching) a lot faster and more effectively than others, which is all about there PA, and is why 100 babies would all turn out different.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I misinterpreted the above.

Themistofelis
20-12-2007, 00:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
In fact he has marking, 1-2's, tackling, a bit of passing... still you are right, what makes him brilliant are not technical attributes, but mental and physical.

but what's the point about that </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not very familiar with football player development but i am a bit with basketball , hard work , physical and mental attributes can make anyone play in a good level and i do mean anyone .
What for example make English players competitive is not their skill (lol) it is that they are good athletes and have a mentality about the game (of course this mentality makes their national team play crap but this is another story) .

Mitja
20-12-2007, 00:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
Wow thanks for all your post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif, I didn’t think I’d get such a response. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway after reading your replies I think that I have come to agree with those who are in favour of not making PA variable (more on that later). But I do still believe that PA shouldn’t be given until you hit 18/19.

Looking back to my school days again I remember that 14 and 15 was a very different age for everyone, whilst many of us where covered in acne, some kids balls had only just dropped, and others could grow beards (like Rooney). I mean if Man Utd came across two identically gifted and passionate players, one who is fresh faced high pitch talking 14 year old kid, and one who is a beard growing 6ft tall 15 year old manboy, then it’s a fair bet to say that the Man Utd coaches would be able to develop the 14 year old kid to be a better player than the manboy. That’s why I don’t believe that PA’s should be given until a player hits 18 or 19.

I think that someone hit on a good solution in making PA affect certain stats differently, IRL you could take any player (even with an adjudged PA to be 1) at 14 who had 1 for pace and acceleration and turn them into someone who could run 100 meters in under 11 seconds by the time they where 21, yet this is impossible on the game. (which is probably more of a training issue than a PA one)

“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink” I think this expression best sums up the reason why I believe that PA shouldn’t be variable. For instance you could give 100 new born babies a pure football upbringing, I mean the full works academies, private coaches, fitness regimes, etc etc, and they would all turn out different, they would all be pretty good, but there would still be some that stood out, and some that faded away, and there would be no guarantee that any would turn out world class. I don’t believe that the latter is down to been “Naturally gifted” in fact I don’t believe that such a thing exists at all, I do believe however that some people are quicker at learning than others, and are able to improve themselves (without coaching) a lot faster and more effectively than others, which is all about there PA, and is why 100 babies would all turn out different.

In conclusion I would keep PA the same, and not make it variable, but I would like to see it affect certain stats differently, the more technique and mentally based the stat, then the more PA should affect it, and the less it should improve the closer the player got to his PA, yet the more athletic the stat then the less PA should influence it, any player who’s CA is equally to their PA could learn to run faster, jump higher, last longer or be stronger. I would also like to see the training tweaked, but that’s for another day. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

to tell youthe truth, what you wrote doesn't make any sense to me. it makes sense in computor world but you were talking about reality...

your 14 y.o. kid will have to work hard to come close to that manboy. there is no guarantee he'll sucseed. if you take into acount that humans are grownig up to some 18-20 years of age. characteristcs like pace and acceleration can be learned but only to some amount. one who is slow will never be fast, once he reaches 20 years. on the other hand strenght is different and person can get stronger even in his 30's. so the peak of pace, agility...is earlier then the peak of strenght.

about those 100 babies; it's very hypotetical thing, but I don't think any of them would play football at the age of 18, with all that pressure, they shoud handle. anyway, of course they would turn different. mosrly due to different personalities and "life factor"- randomness.

"natural gifted" player is someone who's got more skills at/from young age. is it some physical charateristics, or some mental factor his personality has, or some technical skills he learned on the street as a child.

I agree that techique and mental stats can improve more than physical ones. but I don't with runnig faster, jumoing higher thing. it's the metter of age. some mental stats should improve no metter how old is a player-experience. I believe humans are learning and improving/decliming their whole lifes.

no PA shouln't be set at all, if we want reality, no metter what. it's weird to see 17 year old, to be said by your scouts he won't improve anymore????!!? if there wasn't CA/PA system we should be told; not good enough to sucssed at our club level, don't believe he has enough qulity to ever play in our 1st ream. CA/PA is so simplified version of reality. look at luca toni, he peaked at age of 29. he is one of the best strikers. if there wasn't CA/PA system we would get more randomness in the game. I don't want everything to be fixed, and determined in advance. that's not life and that's not football.

George Graham
20-12-2007, 03:02
Maybe PA should be split.

For example certain attributes can be improved with training.

But there are ones that are natural gifts as such which should be set in stone.

Which attributes fall into which category is open to debate though, as even natural talents such as speed and acceleration can be marginally improved upon.

Neb
20-12-2007, 03:14
I thought I should link to this thread, along very similar lines.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4182090463/p/1

My opinion is pretty obvious, I agree with Xouman!

I do think that there should be a limit on how much a player improves. as we all know that not everyone can be the next pele.

However, that limit should be on how much a player can improve in the time he's got to improve. So if a player starts of with a CA of 1, he's never going to be a star (although he could improve immensly and be much much better, how much depends on his circumstances / mental)

A young player who starts the game with a CA of 150 could be amazing, purely because he doesn't have far to go to be amazing, so the chances are that he'd make it.

Think messi, he's been touted as an amazing player since he was really young. Why? because he had amazing 'potential'? or because for his age he was already excellent?!

As far as i'm concerned there is no such thing as 'potential' in real life and so there shouldn't be in FM, there is only current ability and the assumptions people make on development from that point. The development should be due to environment (whether the player enjoys his club, his manager, his co players, whether the club plays him in competetive games, whether the club has goo training facilities, etc) and mental ability (drive, ambition, proffessionalism, etc)

if the gap to make the grade is too big, then it should be just as simple as that. The 17 year old conference player that is absolutely rubbish, probably could make it to a decent level if he gets the right breaks, but the chances of him getting the breaks are slim, because no decent club would buy him and give him the opportunity to become decent.

In many respects I think the current FM system of CA/PA is too complicated. surely all you need is a CA and a guestimate of a 'PA' (which already exists). A player can improve as much as the game engine will let him (that might need to be tightened) depending on how much he improves would dictate how good the AI thought he could become.

Its logical and simple and equals real life. I really don't see the difficulties with it! I think if the development engine could be tweaked just right it would fix all the problems people seem to be having with poor regens. It'd make the game a lot more rewarding too!

xouman
20-12-2007, 06:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neb:
I thought I should link to this thread, along very similar lines.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4182090463/p/1

My opinion is pretty obvious, I agree with Xouman!

I do think that there should be a limit on how much a player improves. as we all know that not everyone can be the next pele.

However, that limit should be on how much a player can improve in the time he's got to improve. So if a player starts of with a CA of 1, he's never going to be a star (although he could improve immensly and be much much better, how much depends on his circumstances / mental)

A young player who starts the game with a CA of 150 could be amazing, purely because he doesn't have far to go to be amazing, so the chances are that he'd make it.

Think messi, he's been touted as an amazing player since he was really young. Why? because he had amazing 'potential'? or because for his age he was already excellent?!

As far as i'm concerned there is no such thing as 'potential' in real life and so there shouldn't be in FM, there is only current ability and the assumptions people make on development from that point. The development should be due to environment (whether the player enjoys his club, his manager, his co players, whether the club plays him in competetive games, whether the club has goo training facilities, etc) and mental ability (drive, ambition, proffessionalism, etc)

if the gap to make the grade is too big, then it should be just as simple as that. The 17 year old conference player that is absolutely rubbish, probably could make it to a decent level if he gets the right breaks, but the chances of him getting the breaks are slim, because no decent club would buy him and give him the opportunity to become decent.

In many respects I think the current FM system of CA/PA is too complicated. surely all you need is a CA and a guestimate of a 'PA' (which already exists). A player can improve as much as the game engine will let him (that might need to be tightened) depending on how much he improves would dictate how good the AI thought he could become.

Its logical and simple and equals real life. I really don't see the difficulties with it! I think if the development engine could be tweaked just right it would fix all the problems people seem to be having with poor regens. It'd make the game a lot more rewarding too! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a computer analyst/programmer, I can tell you that it's quite hard to implement this. PA is acting now in two ways, as far as I can see:

-Make sure that few players can turn into stars.
-Create an interesting work for managers, who have to look for future prospects instead of current better players.

The problem is that this don't reflect reality.

-Each generation has its own best players, maybe the best player in 2030 will be a normal EPL player nowadays. Or more probably, there could be in 2030 a bunch of players far better than Ronaldinho or Cristiano.
-Actually, managers buy best young players, and maybe those who have not change their body expecting them to grow nicely and have them already when they turn into adults. Very few of the last succeed, best players in the world were usually best players at 14. of course there are lots of great players at 14 that never succeed, and some great players who were not special at 14 (i read that Suker was a sub being 16). Turn a player into a star it's hard and involves evading bad luck, as usually happens.


Do you believe in destiny? I don't. What I will be tomorrow is heavily influenced by I was yesterday and what I do today.

I will take myself as an example. Yes, I'm quite narcisist http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I'll put my current attributes, maybe after a week of training to recover minimally my former stats. Between 1(bad) and 5(good)


Mental Attributes

These attributes affect how your players think on the football pitch.

* Agression: 1 -&gt; No manager or coach has ever tried to make an aggresive player from me. As I'm not strong, it was not useful. But if a coach teaches me, I can improve to 3, I'm sure
* Anticipation: 1
* Bravery: 2
* Composure: 2
* Concentration: 2
* Creativity: 4
* Decisions: 4
* Determination: 2
* Flair: 4
* Influence: 1
* Off the ball: 1
* Postioning: 2
* Team Work: 1
* Work Rate: 2

Technical Attributes

* Corners: 1
* Crossing: 1
* Dribbling: 2
* Finishing: 3
* First Touch: 1
* Heading: 1
* Long shots: 2
* Long Throws:1
* Marking:3
* Passing: 1
* Penalty Taking: 3
* Tackling: 1
* Technique: 1 (well, I actually deserve a 0 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

Physical Attributes

* Acceleration: 1
* Agility: 2
* Balance:1
* Jumping:1
* Natural Fitness:1
* Pace:1
* Stamina:2
* Strength:1


Hidden Attributes

* Consistency:?
* Dirtiness:?
* Important Matches:?
* Injury Proneness:?
* Versatility:4
* Adaptability:4
* Ambition:1
* Controversy:2
* Loyalty:5
* Pressure:?
* Professionalism:3
* Sportsmanship:4
* Temperament:1


Some hidden attributes are unknown even for me, as I haven't player professional football.

Well, with these traits I can have a CA of 5/200. I can't even play in a non-league team, I know. I am 26, quite late for me. But what would happen if a EPL team wanted to make the best player possible from me, coaching me for years, playing me at right level?

Mental Attributes

These attributes affect how your players think on the football pitch.

* Agression: 1 -&gt; No manager or coach has ever tried to make an aggresive player from me. As I'm not strong, it was not useful. But if a coach teaches me, I can improve to 3, I'm sure
* Anticipation: 1 -&gt; This one is not easy to improve, but playing often in a suitable role I can improve to 2 in 2 or 3 years
* Bravery: 2 -&gt; A good motivating coach or captain can help me to improve to let's say 3
* Composure: 2 -&gt; This one is "easy" to all players, but it's hard trained. In 1 year maybe I can't improve it, in 2 or 3 years maybe one point, to 3.
* Concentration: 2 -&gt; Same as before, experience helps a lot, but also a good manager.
* Creativity: 4 -&gt; I'm 26 and surely I can't change it now.
* Decisions: 3 -&gt; surely as creativity
* Determination: 2 -&gt; A determinated captain and mates can help me to improve, but by myself I can't.
* Flair: 3 -&gt; I'm maybe too old to change it. Maybe if I play in a brazilian club...
* Influence: 1 -&gt; I can improve it with experience,but maybe at a rate of 4 years a point (talking between 1 and 5 ratings)
* Off the ball: 1 -&gt; Like anticipation, through matches I can improve it at slow rate
* Postioning: 2 -&gt; Like anticipation and off the ball
* Team Work: 1 -&gt; I have to play lots of matches, and being in a motivated club will be helpful. No available to improve without playing
* Work Rate: 2 -&gt; as bravery

Technical Attributes

* Corners: 1 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 3 or 4
* Crossing: 1 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 3 or 4
* Dribbling: 2 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 4
* Finishing: 3 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 4 (maybe 5)
* First Touch: 1 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 3 or 4
* Heading: 1 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 3 or 4
* Long shots: 2 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 4
* Long Throws:1 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 3 or 4
* Marking:3 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 4 (maybe 5)
* Passing: 1 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 3 or 4
* Penalty Taking: 3 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 4 (maybe 5)
* Tackling: 1 -&gt; If I focus a lot, I can improve to 3 or 4
* Technique: 1 (well, I actually deserve a 0 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) -&gt; This one is different. I can improve a lot in a short period of time because I haven't trained for years, but I won't go beyond 2.

What's the problem with technical attributes? I can focus on any area, but not in all areas. Maybe I can improve let's say 3 points a year (equivalent to 12 fm points), but not in every area, but the sum of all my improvements. If I focus ONLY on penalties, I will be a master in 3 years, don't hesitate.

Physical Attributes

* Acceleration: 1 -&gt; maybe 2? surely with good fitness training even being 26
* Agility: 2 -&gt; maybe to 3.
* Balance:1 -&gt; difficult, but not impossible
* Jumping:1 -&gt; don't think i can increase it
* Natural Fitness:1 -&gt; surely a more healthy live will improve this to 2, never beyond
* Pace:1-&gt; maybe 2? surely with good fitness training even being 26
* Stamina:2-&gt; 3 points will be easy with good training
* Strength:1-&gt; maybe a 2, with good training and years


Hidden Attributes

* Consistency:? -&gt; if my performances are decent and my coach takes care of me, could be a 3
* Dirtiness:? -&gt; as my coach wants if I do what he wants
* Important Matches:? -&gt; this is difficult to improve. winning important matches should help, losing them would drop this
* Injury Proneness:4 -&gt; can't be changed imho
* Versatility:4 -&gt; If I play in the same role always, it will decrease
* Adaptability:4 -&gt; can't be changed imho
* Ambition:1 -&gt; can't be changed imho
* Controversy:2 -&gt; can change due to certain events
* Loyalty:5 -&gt; with age, people changes it's priorities
* Pressure:? -&gt; can increase with experience
* Professionalism:3 -&gt; can increase with experience, decrease with bad habits
* Sportsmanship:4 -&gt; can change with experience
* Temperament:1 -&gt; can change with experience


As you can see I can turn into a decent BSS player, imho. I always will have crap technical attributes (maybe some decent, but crap all around) because I started too late and with low skills already, quite limited physically talking but with nice mental attributes. maybe a DMC, I will say.

But the problem is, what EPL team wants to train me into a BSS player? will I spend lots of hours every week pursuing a dream. What about if I have an injury, if my mates dislike me because I'm crap, if I'm not motivated to train 100%, if my coach can't inspire me? there is at least a 80% that I can't improve to BSS even with best environment. If a BSS team tries to train me, I will have even less oportunities.

After all, the important question. What is my potential? Someone can say? please I really want you opinion, I'm serious.

Mitja
20-12-2007, 06:28
-1 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

xouman
20-12-2007, 06:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
-1 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
well, I expected a number between 1 and 200, since it's that way how it it's implemented in DB (although my PA was created with a -1 _p)

so, what numer would you say?

postal postie
20-12-2007, 06:56
anyone can be a footballer. whether you can play professionally is another thing altogether.
whether you can play at the top of the professional leagues again, is another thing alltogether.

i believe there is a limit, in terms of technical ability that every footballer can be. some footballers limits are lower than others. but if every one that wanted to be a professional footballer and tried hard and were in physically good shape then the market for top class footballers wouldn't not be spiralling into 10s of millions of pounds. you'd just get 1 of the many people who are physically good,really wanted to be a footballer and was willing to train hard for peanuts.

chopper99
20-12-2007, 07:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

After all, the important question. What is my potential? Someone can say? please I really want you opinion, I'm serious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your potential now at 26 is the same as it was when you were 15 imo. I don't know you and have never seen you play football. But I get the impression that you've never really shown any natural aptitude for football and were not playing football constantly from a very early age as most professional footballers would have done.

For that reason I'd say your PA when you were 15 would be 35. Your CA when you were 15 may have been around 5 and is probably not any better now. So with all the top class training you mentioned you may in the next few years be able to up your CA to 10, in effect making you twice the player you are now. If you'd had top class coaching from the age of 15 you may have reached your potential of 35.

But, I genuinely believe you wouldn't get better than that. This is because almost all professional footballers were playing a lot of football from as soon as they were old enough to kick a ball. Many of them would have been playing at county level or for some team or other.

I'm making the assumption that this is not the case for you and because of this and perhaps a lack of natural footballing ability I believe your PA at 15 would be pretty low and stay that way.

Any coach for any sport will tell you that most people need to train from a very early age to get anywhere near the top of their sport.

That's why I believe your PA would be maybe 35 at the most, and that potential would not change no matter what you did after you were 15 because by then it would be too late.

xouman
20-12-2007, 09:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

After all, the important question. What is my potential? Someone can say? please I really want you opinion, I'm serious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your potential now at 26 is the same as it was when you were 15 imo. I don't know you and have never seen you play football. But I get the impression that you've never really shown any natural aptitude for football and were not playing football constantly from a very early age as most professional footballers would have done.

For that reason I'd say your PA when you were 15 would be 35. Your CA when you were 15 may have been around 5 and is probably not any better now. So with all the top class training you mentioned you may in the next few years be able to up your CA to 10, in effect making you twice the player you are now. If you'd had top class coaching from the age of 15 you may have reached your potential of 35.

But, I genuinely believe you wouldn't get better than that. This is because almost all professional footballers were playing a lot of football from as soon as they were old enough to kick a ball. Many of them would have been playing at county level or for some team or other.

I'm making the assumption that this is not the case for you and because of this and perhaps a lack of natural footballing ability I believe your PA at 15 would be pretty low and stay that way.

Any coach for any sport will tell you that most people need to train from a very early age to get anywhere near the top of their sport.

That's why I believe your PA would be maybe 35 at the most, and that potential would not change no matter what you did after you were 15 because by then it would be too late. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I really liked your post http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I fact, that was what I wanted, though I expected something worse. well done!

You think than PA is set in stone, so no matter what I do I can't go further. Good. But in that case, I have to do everything perfectly, a 100% healthy life, perfect coaches and mates who make me suffer in the exactly moments and help me when I need. I agree that in perfect conditions, all players are not the same, and I also think that there is a limit for all. If you can shoot a ball from 50 yards and pass it by a hoop just 1 milimeter wider than the ball, and you can do it always, I can say you are a perfect passer: you have reached the limit. Will you find someone that can do this? I don't think so, then perfection should not be achieved.

Nobody reaches his perfection. So why have a PA? To limit players CA in FM. It is an artificial number, and does not represent potential, but the CA the player is likely to have under normal circunstances and lots of players reach it.

You do not have a static potential. Every day I'm further to the player I could have been when I born. Maradona could be a better player himself, as Pelé. All of us.

The important thing is the change of the player. One player can develope a lot one skill if he trains hard, if he is motivating in learn, if he plays and tests it, if he hasn't trained it before... and under certain circunstances players don't improve, or lose some of their current hability. System works nicely now, maybe the problem is most players develope easy under certain circunstances and then they stop without an explanation.

In real life Ronaldinho stopped improving because:

-Physical attributes: Ronaldinho did not improve because he trained with less intensity, and already has trained at a very good level.

-Mental attributes: he increased influence, composure a bit but lost work rate, bravery... just he focused on technical attributes, but not more than he did before. he is not really eager to improve.

-Technical attributes: since he is not training hard, he has not improved. His training just maintains his skills, and maybe he lose some.

but messi

-physical attributes: he can't improve drastically, but has gained a lot of strengh, some balance, agility... since he's young he's adapting to his body

-mental attributes: he has learned a lot from players like ronaldinho, and works hard in matches and trainings. Playing important matches he's learning a lot.




By the way, I don't have a PA of 35 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have a potential about 3/10 for physical, 4/10 for technical (at this moment, could be higher if I started 10 years ago) and 10/10 for mental, though this 10 in mental depends on lots of factors, some quite random.

iacovone
20-12-2007, 10:40
Soton I'm not sure you're quite right there. For one there is no way of defining what a players real life potential is. It's all objective.

Anyway I largely agree with the original poster, I feel there should be some leverage in PA.

postal postie
20-12-2007, 11:58
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xouman:


Nobody reaches his perfection. So why have a PA? To limit players CA in FM. It is an artificial number, and does not represent potential, but the CA the player is likely to have under normal circunstances and lots of players reach it.

You do not have a static potential. Every day I'm further to the player I could have been when I born. Maradona could be a better player himself, as Pelé. All of us.

The important thing is the change of the player. One player can develope a lot one skill if he trains hard, if he is motivating in learn, if he plays and tests it, if he hasn't trained it before... and under certain circunstances players don't improve, or lose some of their current hability. System works nicely now, maybe the problem is most players develope easy under certain circunstances and then they stop without an explanation.

QUOTE]

the game has to have a static upper limit otherwise the possiblity to go past it is there.
its like in real life. for beckham to cross the ball he has to have the ball in his posession.
this is obvious. to a piece of software it is not. so you have to specificly tell it.

if beckham is on wing AND has ball then cross

in my opinion we all do have a static potential. you may be closer to being a better player every day. that just means your getting closer to your PA every day. not that your PA is extending exponentially into the distance as you get better.

Neb
20-12-2007, 14:42
I agree that there needs to be a limit on how far a player develops and I can see why the current system is in place.

Its just that its been the same system for over 10 years!

I'd rather see a dynamic development of players. Increase due to being looked after, decrease after being frozen out of the team, young stars hitting the headlines when they are 17 but never really making it, players suddenly doing well even though they are 'unknowns'. Less reliance on an imaginary number created when the player entered the game world.

I'm sure it would be difficult to do, to balance it out correctly, but I think I'd prefer it to the current system.

I think its more that because I know PA exists, it annoys me! I don't ever look at it, it just annoys me that my 18 year old striker isn't ever going to get any better, no matter what I do and no matter where he trains, or who trains him. To a certain extent it makes the whole player development thing a little bit pointless.

xouman
21-12-2007, 00:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neb:
I agree that there needs to be a limit on how far a player develops and I can see why the current system is in place.

Its just that its been the same system for over 10 years!

I'd rather see a dynamic development of players. Increase due to being looked after, decrease after being frozen out of the team, young stars hitting the headlines when they are 17 but never really making it, players suddenly doing well even though they are 'unknowns'. Less reliance on an imaginary number created when the player entered the game world.

I'm sure it would be difficult to do, to balance it out correctly, but I think I'd prefer it to the current system.

I think its more that because I know PA exists, it annoys me! I don't ever look at it, it just annoys me that my 18 year old striker isn't ever going to get any better, no matter what I do and no matter where he trains, or who trains him. To a certain extent it makes the whole player development thing a little bit pointless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you. The fact is that the current system works nice now, I enjoy it a lot. But like you, I think that could be improved. Our point of view is that some players improve further than other because of their current abilities and environment, not by mystical reasons.

I have a science mind. I think that rains not because some God wants, but just because an electric reaction happens lots of meters above. Maybe there is a God, I don't deny it, but then he's rules is what we call Science, and humans are just guessing those http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

In other words: I can easily accept some kind of PA, but not any. What PA can I accept?

-A PA given from current mental stats, feeling with coach and quality of him, facilities, performance at matches, good relation with other players in the team, morale... and maybe starting CA. Also Natural Fitness could help to PA in physical traits and technique in technical skills. That is, a PA made from current abilities, so not a hidden value, just a calculated one, and not static by nature.

This PA will not be useful, same as player don't have a global 8.1/10 or something like so. One of the things I love from FM is that a player is usually not better than another, just different. In other games a player with lots of attributes at maximum and a couple at minimum like speed and strengh can be amazing, while in FM won't be quite useful. Players are good if they do what you expect with them: maybe you want a winger with good crossing or you prefer him to go into the middle while your forward runs to the wing, creating spaces. Maybe you want a keeper great rushing out or just one solid at keep, with deep defence. Well, maybe useful to calculate, as CA does, but in game CA is not as important as attributes IMHO, as has to be.

stumostro
21-12-2007, 01:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neb:
I agree that there needs to be a limit on how far a player develops and I can see why the current system is in place.

Its just that its been the same system for over 10 years!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But at the same time, it works!

Why try and fix/make something more complicated that isn't broken?

robin_trott_hoof
21-12-2007, 01:46
PA has to be set, but the real issue is that hotly tipped players without fail become amazing players by their early twenties. It's too linear and players don't progress in a identikit fashion.

You almost never see a player who just turns into a decent Championship/League One player or one who's career is set back by repeated injury.

Mitja
21-12-2007, 02:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neb:
I agree that there needs to be a limit on how far a player develops and I can see why the current system is in place.

Its just that its been the same system for over 10 years!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But at the same time, it works!

Why try and fix/make something more complicated that isn't broken? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


becouse it's not realistic.

Coop7774
21-12-2007, 03:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

doesnt PA mean the best a player can potentially be?

thatz y so many top class players are below their ultimate PA.. becoz the PA is absolute maximum - that being exposed to the best youth facilities and training facilities in the world???

Neb
21-12-2007, 04:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neb:
I agree that there needs to be a limit on how far a player develops and I can see why the current system is in place.

Its just that its been the same system for over 10 years!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But at the same time, it works!

Why try and fix/make something more complicated that isn't broken? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does work, I agree, but so did the limited tactics of the original CM, the lack of 2d match action, the fact you could only play one league. Fair enough it works, but just because it works doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved!

As robin said, its too linear and there is little interaction to be had with the players. If I buy a young lad of 15, keep him for 10 seasons and develop him into a superstar, I don't feel like I've done anything special because he'd have ended up like that anyway! In reality it takes a lot of luck and the right development to make a player that good. I hate the way my 18 year old striker is playing the games, scoring the goals and performing week in week out but he won't get any better no matter what I do. even if he is suddenly bought by arsenal and developed perfectly he won't get any better. which is rubbish, because in real life he would get significantly better (whether he'd be as good as messi isn't the point) but he would definately improve.

In a similiar vein, if I buy a player he'll play well. I think it would make for a much more realistic experience if his ability, (or more, change of ability) was linked to his environment, his relationship with manager/players. Think of Shevchenko, would that ever happen in FM at the moment? A world class striker moving to a successful team and not performing? All the players I've signed have always met with expectation (unless they were on the wrong side of their peak). That seems silly.

It'd certainly make LLM more exciting knowing that by being a good 'manager' you can get more out of your players, influence their careers and get a reputation for being a good manager. Signing those awkward underperforming 'stars' and turning them into real professionals. etc. The list is endless and it would certainly make for an involving rewarding game!

chopper99
21-12-2007, 04:17
I think there are two main points being made here:

1 - Some people think that PA should not exist at all and that any player who has the best training etc should be able to improve. They are not limited by things such as natural ability and as they improve their potential also improves. I disagree with this opinion because I firmly believe that everyone has an upper limit and no amount of luck or hard work will make them better than the potential they have.

2 - Other people believe that it's the way in which a player reaches their potential that's the problem. This should not be so linear and more effort is needed by the manager to improve young players. Mental attributes such as determination should play a bigger part in how well a player improves, and only by perhaps changing some of these mental attributes with tutoring can certain players ever get close to their potential.
Injuries and the like should also play a part in development. Any event that has a negative effect on a player should have more of an impact on his ability to reach his potential. Although you have to be carful when implementing this as negative events only make some players more determined to improve (i.e Beckham after he got sent off in the '98 world cup).

I agree entirely with the second point of view. So I accept that there needs to be an upper limit, as in real life every person does indeed have a potential and once they get to be the best their body and brain will allow them to be at something they can improve no further. But at the same time a players ability to reach their potential needs to be much more varied and fluid. I personally believe that many mental attributes should be the only things seperate from the traditional PA system. These should be improved in the main by experience. What leagues and competitions a player has participated in should have a big impact.

So which of the two opinions do you agree with?

Mitja
21-12-2007, 04:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
I think there are two main points being made here:

1 - Some people think that PA should not exist at all and that any player who has the best training etc should be able to improve. They are not limited by things such as natural ability and as they improve their potential also improves. I disagree with this opinion because I firmly believe that everyone has an upper limit and no amount of luck or hard work will make them better than the potential they have.

2 - Other people believe that it's the way in which a player reaches their potential that's the problem. This should not be so linear and more effort is needed by the manager to improve young players. Mental attributes such as determination should play a bigger part in how well a player improves, and only by perhaps changing some of these mental attributes with tutoring can certain players ever get close to their potential.
Injuries and the like should also play a part in development. Any event that has a negative effect on a player should have more of an impact on his ability to reach his potential. Although you have to be carful when implementing this as negative events only make some players more determined to improve (i.e Beckham after he got sent off in the '98 world cup).

I agree entirely with the second point of view. So I accept that there needs to be an upper limit, as in real life every person does indeed have a potential and once they get to be the best their body and brain will allow them to be at something they can improve no further. But at the same time a players ability to reach their potential needs to be much more varied and fluid. I personally believe that many mental attributes should be the only things seperate from the traditional PA system. These should be improved in the main by experience. What leagues and competitions a player has participated in should have a big impact.

So which of the two opinions do you agree with? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your point 1 is quite simpified and I wouldn't agree with it either. the most important factor should be age, level of competition in which the player is in and either he plays or not. definetly not training facilites.

the limit of how much he can improve is allready his CA. the point is that with these CA/PA system you have plenty of 17, 18 y.o kids who can't improve.??!!! IRE if they were given the chance to play they would improve drasticly. and that's how players do improve IRE, by playing football. plus at the moment AI is only looking for CA instead of attributes.....

xouman
21-12-2007, 05:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
I think there are two main points being made here:

1 - Some people think that PA should not exist at all and that any player who has the best training etc should be able to improve. They are not limited by things such as natural ability and as they improve their potential also improves. I disagree with this opinion because I firmly believe that everyone has an upper limit and no amount of luck or hard work will make them better than the potential they have.

2 - Other people believe that it's the way in which a player reaches their potential that's the problem. This should not be so linear and more effort is needed by the manager to improve young players. Mental attributes such as determination should play a bigger part in how well a player improves, and only by perhaps changing some of these mental attributes with tutoring can certain players ever get close to their potential.
Injuries and the like should also play a part in development. Any event that has a negative effect on a player should have more of an impact on his ability to reach his potential. Although you have to be carful when implementing this as negative events only make some players more determined to improve (i.e Beckham after he got sent off in the '98 world cup).

I agree entirely with the second point of view. So I accept that there needs to be an upper limit, as in real life every person does indeed have a potential and once they get to be the best their body and brain will allow them to be at something they can improve no further. But at the same time a players ability to reach their potential needs to be much more varied and fluid. I personally believe that many mental attributes should be the only things seperate from the traditional PA system. These should be improved in the main by experience. What leagues and competitions a player has participated in should have a big impact.

So which of the two opinions do you agree with? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with both points:

1-You don't have limits (only physically), but there are things that a player can't reach in all his career. A player who appears at 16 with 2 in technique never should have a 16 no matter what happens. Only if he has never played football could explain that improve, but we assume that all players have played some years before.
Maybe SI can create some regens that came from other sports and improve drastically first years their technical skills (this happens irl) But this is another question.
Well I was saying that we don't have limits, but this not means we could improve to god's skills. You can improve 10 point each year among all technical traits when they are low. Some years later, you improve quite slower, and training works maintaining level, not truly improving. But if a new trainig system appears, you can improve again at good pace.
Raul, a famous Real Madrid player, is told to sleep in a special chamber that has different oxygene % or something like that and his performances have increased a lot. All people were sure that his level was absolutely achieved and lost, but new improvements make people better. The hypothetical limit does not exist, just you improve quite slowly at some time.
Players don't stop improving technical attributes because they cannot improve anymore. Just they have to focus their time in some skills and they are improving slower due to some reason, or just spend training time in maintaining those attributes.

2-If we both agree, no problem with this.

postal postie
21-12-2007, 08:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neb:
I agree that there needs to be a limit on how far a player develops and I can see why the current system is in place.

Its just that its been the same system for over 10 years!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But at the same time, it works!

Why try and fix/make something more complicated that isn't broken? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


becouse it's not realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

we can't really claim its not realistic.
most arguments here some to be saying that potential goes up and down.

it doesn't.
what does go up and down is the chance of hitting your potential.

1. your at a poor club with poor training so your ability to hit your potential isn't particularly high.

2. your at a good club with good training. your chances of hitting your potential is much higher.

potential doesn't change. its still at the same level.

different things like your surroundings and your mentality merely help you or hinder you in achieving that potential.

xouman
23-12-2007, 23:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neb:
I agree that there needs to be a limit on how far a player develops and I can see why the current system is in place.

Its just that its been the same system for over 10 years!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But at the same time, it works!

Why try and fix/make something more complicated that isn't broken? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


becouse it's not realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

we can't really claim its not realistic.
most arguments here some to be saying that potential goes up and down.

it doesn't.
what does go up and down is the chance of hitting your potential.

1. your at a poor club with poor training so your ability to hit your potential isn't particularly high.

2. your at a good club with good training. your chances of hitting your potential is much higher.

potential doesn't change. its still at the same level.

different things like your surroundings and your mentality merely help you or hinder you in achieving that potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then if potential is the best ability you could ever have, as you never could have PERFERCT career, you won't achieve that PA. If you can't achieve PA, why have it?

pehoni
20-01-2008, 05:27
OK guys. Talking about potential ability, I believe that everyone has a limit. If you think that human potential in terms of mental, physical and technical abilities is limitless, then this would mean that you reject genetics! No one can continue to improve forever. This is so because it is an innate quality of people to get satisfied at some point, no matter how selfish or ambitious they are in nature. The process of improvement itself is a kind of "stress" for the individual, because the body, the mind and the abilities change. Subconsciously we do not want this "stress" to continue forever and that's why guys like Ronaldinho at some point decide that that they're already doing well enough and decrease the endeavours. So, my argument ,obviously, is that both psychologically and mentally we have a limit.
I saw some people writing about current ability and that it is what really matters givig Messi for example. Well, I partially agree with them. However, do you think that Messi has always been as good as he is now? NO! His current ability used to be potnetial ability that he has managed to reach through training and endeavour, but only because he had the right genes!

postal postie
20-01-2008, 05:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neb:
I agree that there needs to be a limit on how far a player develops and I can see why the current system is in place.

Its just that its been the same system for over 10 years!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But at the same time, it works!

Why try and fix/make something more complicated that isn't broken? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


becouse it's not realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

we can't really claim its not realistic.
most arguments here some to be saying that potential goes up and down.

it doesn't.
what does go up and down is the chance of hitting your potential.

1. your at a poor club with poor training so your ability to hit your potential isn't particularly high.

2. your at a good club with good training. your chances of hitting your potential is much higher.

potential doesn't change. its still at the same level.

different things like your surroundings and your mentality merely help you or hinder you in achieving that potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then if potential is the best ability you could ever have, as you never could have PERFERCT career, you won't achieve that PA. If you can't achieve PA, why have it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

because this is a computer program. there needs to be limits. if you don't have a lmit to hhow far a player can improve then the program will allow the player to improve for ever.

computers have no concept of the basics without a human inputting that concept into it.

for example one problem could be that if you dont tell the program that the player has to have the ball before he can cross it then the program will attempt at some point to make the player cross a ball that he doesn't have.

we know this is silly but a program is merely running the logic that has been input into it.

Bongo-Bongo
20-01-2008, 06:51
The idea that everybody can become a star at whatever they choose to do is typical of the idealistic, politically correct fantasy land that the world has now become.

If we can all become great, why is it that a school friend of mine tried and tried all throughout school to do as well as he could but never did very well, whilst I put little effort in at all and was always one of the top of my class? We both went to the same school, were in the same year group and had many of the same teachers, yet despite trying his hardest, and rarely socialissing in order to get good grades, he didn't, whilst I took the p*ss and still did well. It's simply because, whilst despite the fact I was often being lazy, I still had the room to improve, whilst my friend didn't. He did the best he could, but was never going to do particularly well.

And it's the same for football. Yes, there are limitations that will make it harder for a footballer to achieve his potential, but what is needed here is a much stronger development model, and not a change to a variable PA. Wenger and Benitez have gone buying youth players from around the globe simply because they believe the players from their youth academies aren't good enough. They just don't have the potential.

xouman
21-01-2008, 04:19
I still think that there is not a global PA at all. Well, maybe there is, but nobody has ever reached it, so it's stupid to assign an unreachable PA.

1st statement: Nobody has ever reached his potential.
2nd statement: an unreachable PA is useless

Of course CA is not improving all the time. We improve faster at the beginning, then slower under normal conditions. Some factors may alter the learning curve, as injuries, good performances, changing the club, personal environment... As our body does, we don't improve forever in all ways. in fact, lots of players have a CA curve, thay grows until first 20's and decreases at 30's. However this curve is not the same for all players at all, most have very different curves, some players peaking at 21, others at 25, 29, even some at 30's.

3rd statement: All players stop improving at any time.
4th statement: most players have a CA curve, with highest point at the middle or middle-end of their career.
5th statement: this curve is not the same for all players.

What makes players improve? Playing, training, physical improvements, maturity. how? playing increases players mentality and motivate players for training. Training is the most important aspect: a good training may improve all players areas, unless physical attributes that are close to the limit. But it is impossible to have a perfect training, you must have 100% motivated players, perfect exercices, lots of hours of hard working... Physical improvements are due to training, gym and also body changes, specially with young players. Finally, maturity is influenced by personal life events, that can change player's proffesionalism, determination, concentration...

6th statement: players' attributes change due to different things, and have them in a perfect way is impossible.
7th statement: there can be always better environments, trainings... for a players. So, a player could be always better than he is.

But of course, some players are more naturally gifted than others. There are players that have succed with worse environment and training than other players who have not succed. That's because they had better learning curve, had better initial skills, more coordination, were more motivated at trainings, had better coaches or mates, injuries didn't affect them... Generally, I think that the problem is not "when and why players improve" but "when and why players stop improving". maybe their learning curve has peaked, and training just helps player avoiding losing of attributes, but player does not learn anything from training. Some players are just not motivated and train the same as always, and some players had bad morale. Others have injuries, there are players that don't play of play in a bad time, maybe they clash with coach, and some young player were touted better that they actually are because some good performances. And of course, some players decrease their attributes because their body has peaked and they lose physical attributes, coordination (that affects tactical attributes) and decreases motivation.

8th statement: some players are more gifted than another
9th statement: why players stop improving? because of many factors

Final statement: the key to determine players attributes (CA) is fininding a good learning curve. With a good evolution, there is no need of assingning a top CA, just the player will have a "natural" limit, and we will know it at the end of his career.



PD: wegner and benited do not sign players with better potential, but best players of their age who still are progressing http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

SiDolman
21-01-2008, 04:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree, aguero's PA is not as superhuman as his goalscoring record suggests

Mitja
21-01-2008, 04:44
bongo-bongo you are wrong about your examplee.

you are talking about CA not PA. ability is why you were better in school.

potential exists but no one can see it. I don't know if you heard of Nikola Tesla he was one of the greatedt scientifics (physics, electricity). but in school he realy sucked at maths. so his teachers could thought he has no future in science...

why is wenger buying all those foreigners instead giving the chance to home grown youngsters. becouse their CA is better and in that age it means their potential is also better... so basicly CA=PA; becouse PA is smth that is in the future and only god knows it http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

you mightt have smth in your self that could lead you to be better then Maradona... only the problem is that you are not playing and it means you have low CA. so nobody is going to sign you and you will never become what you could...

postal postie
21-01-2008, 05:09
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiDolman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree, aguero's PA is not as superhuman as his goalscoring record suggests </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i have a winger called helder barbosa. his pa a few seasons in is 138. but his stats are amazing. he's got everything that you'd expect from a winger.

leftback in the changing room
21-01-2008, 10:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
bongo-bongo you are wrong about your examplee.

you are talking about CA not PA. ability is why you were better in school. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, he is correct. I will endeavor to explain by the power of analogy:

One person has good grades, the other not so good. Assuming they are receiving exactly the same training tailored to their requirements (in this case, an education in the same class):

Bongo-Bongo (BB) has a PA of 150 and a CA of 135 - because he isn't working hard enough to max out his CA http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
Friend of Bongo-Bongo (FoBB) Has a PA of 100 and CA of 99.

The argument often said on here - and the argument BB has brought up - is that because FoBB is in the same place as BB, his PA should be capable of increasing to 150. And as he is working hard, his CA would also increase to approx. 150.

However, it doesn't matter how hard FoBB works, he never caught up with BB. And his PA will never increase. Yes it seems unfair - but it's accurate. And this is what is reflected in FM.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">why is wenger buying all those foreigners instead giving the chance to home grown youngsters. becouse their CA is better and in that age it means their potential is also better... so basicly CA=PA; becouse PA is smth that is in the future and only god knows it http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because they are:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Cheap (initially!)
<LI>Keen to move to England to have a much better life than they could achieve in their own countries
<LI>Most importantly - they are technically superior in many ways to young British players.
[/list]

This is a little regarded fact but the upbringing, practise facilities and climate experienced by players varies around the world and generates youngsters with significantly different abilities. In in-game terms, young Enslish players will have lower technical statistics, but would more often than not have better physical attributes.

Many top coaches are on record stating that English youngsters are significantly less developed as footballers than African or European counterparts at the same age. Then again, you don't have to believe me - just read Gianluca Vialli's exceptional book "The Italian Job" where you will get quotes to that effect from Jose Mourinho, Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson.

So the PA system works to that effect - there HAS to be an absolute MAXIMUM that a player can achieve. Whether the system would improve if there was a variable XA system - the maximum a player could achieve at his current club that - has been debated before.

And, as has been pointed out already, PA/CA is far from the be all and end all of performance in football manager.

Alurny
21-01-2008, 10:48
Main issue, for me, is the fact most players develop in he same way, at the same rate, nearly always realising their potentials, bar serious injury.

Suggested improvement would be a better variation of development models:

Development Graphs (http://i32.tinypic.com/2n8sad1.jpg)

These models could also be affected by better facilities/Resources/staff eg:

Effect of resources (http://i28.tinypic.com/6tmnut.jpg)

Also could be shown with a worked example:

Jimbob. (http://i25.tinypic.com/2efjddg.jpg)

Mitja
21-01-2008, 11:04
leftback I don't understand the word you wanted to say. all I'm saying is even if PA exists there is nobody who could tell how much is it.

leftback in the changing room
21-01-2008, 11:18
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
leftback I don't understand the word you wanted to say. all I'm saying is even if PA exists there is nobody who could tell how much is it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. There are ample scouts, coaches etc. out there who will tell you that they spotted the potential at a very young age (12 or 13 years old) of players like Wayne Rooney, Alan Shearer, Michael Owen and Emile Heskey (hmmm, 3 out of 4 ain't bad...). So PA is not a stat known only to whatever deity you choose to believe in - a skilled, practised watcher of football will be able to spot that a young player may have sufficient talent to be a superstar, never mind a professional footballer.

Mitja
21-01-2008, 11:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leftback in the changing room:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
leftback I don't understand the word you wanted to say. all I'm saying is even if PA exists there is nobody who could tell how much is it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. There are ample scouts, coaches etc. out there who will tell you that they spotted the potential at a very young age (12 or 13 years old) of players like Wayne Rooney, Alan Shearer, Michael Owen and Emile Heskey (hmmm, 3 out of 4 ain't bad...). So PA is not a stat known only to whatever deity you choose to believe in - a skilled, practised watcher of football will be able to spot that a young player may have sufficient talent to be a superstar, never mind a professional footballer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes I agree. but the scout is making his decesion on his curent ability compered to other players at his age. and that's why this youngster has good potential. you can't tell how good he will be. as you can't tell what is going to happen next year. it's future and it didn't happen yet.

anyway I think we means quite the same with other words, there is no need to argue too much. I can accept this PA system, but I don't like it becouse some youngsters have set their potential with very young age. and I believe we witnesed these player's PA changing from one serie (of FM) to other.

postal postie
21-01-2008, 12:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leftback in the changing room:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
leftback I don't understand the word you wanted to say. all I'm saying is even if PA exists there is nobody who could tell how much is it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. There are ample scouts, coaches etc. out there who will tell you that they spotted the potential at a very young age (12 or 13 years old) of players like Wayne Rooney, Alan Shearer, Michael Owen and Emile Heskey (hmmm, 3 out of 4 ain't bad...). So PA is not a stat known only to whatever deity you choose to believe in - a skilled, practised watcher of football will be able to spot that a young player may have sufficient talent to be a superstar, never mind a professional footballer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes I agree. but the scout is making his decesion on his curent ability compered to other players at his age. and that's why this youngster has good potential. you can't tell how good he will be. as you can't tell what is going to happen next year. it's future and it didn't happen yet.

anyway I think we means quite the same with other words, there is no need to argue too much. I can accept this PA system, but I don't like it becouse some youngsters have set their potential with very young age. and I believe we witnesed these player's PA changing from one serie (of FM) to other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes and PA is hidden thus you shouldn't be able to know it either unless you cheat and look.
the scouts in game dont see the exact PA and so will be working it out depending on what he says and how good at scouting he is.

so it works.

Mitja
21-01-2008, 13:38
you're right. but I don't think we are talking about that. (looking at it).

more of the problem to me is that PA has too much influence on how much the player will improove instead of his mental att., the fact wheather he is playing, the league he plays in, training facilities...

Scath
21-01-2008, 17:39
I wonder would the idea of a variable PA be more appropriate if it were kept within the boundaries of the 'minus' system - i.e. if player X has -10, which we'll have as 180-200, then allow his potential to change up to a certain cut off point ((it's a computer programme after all ).

The idea would be, I have a -10 striker, I sign him for a top club, I give him the best physical training possible, he's exposed to top class players, as well as coaches, ergo, he reaches the higher end of his potential range.

Now add another factor, I take the same player, bring him to a club where the manager's a d*ckhead, where there's a lot of conflict, and so you're player loses motivation, thus ending up at the lower end of the potential range. In our given example, this would put him at 180-ish out of 200, in the current system - a superb player, but one with serious mentality issues, which leads me to the next issue.

Some of the stats in game relating to personality should be 'floating.' Simple example - one of my players misses training, manager A fines him, manager B let's him off. If manager A is in charge, the player will become more professional (what choice does he have?) but will also be less loyal to his manager. If manager B is in charge, we'll see someone whose loyal, less professional, less consistent. Sadly, as it currently stands, we can't effect a player's hidden mental attributes, surely there should be a case of nature VERSUS NURTURE. Nurture doesn't play much of a part so far.

The other facet of player attributes I would remove from CA/PA is fitness, instead, I'd establish a second CA/PA for these. (sorry http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but it's still a game, we need laws and structures for it to function) Thus, I could have striker A, with great technical skill, we'll say he's a very smart player, with great physical PA. Let's then use as a real example, Michael Owen. In his youth, a long long time ago :P he seemed likely to be on the way to being one of the world's best. He had great skill married to lightning pace. Given the fact that his career has been ravaged by injury, he's lost massive amounts of pace - surely that should be seperate from the traditonal CA/PA system so it could be more easily modelled.

Chas (Psyatika)
22-01-2008, 00:01
The CA/PA system is not intended for users to see, so people complaining about it affecting their game is kind of silly.

Anyway, the way i thought CA worked, was that it allocated a certain number of points to the player in the different attributes.

So a player with a CA of 130 could simply have all of his points in very specific areas (Pace, Finishing, First Touch, Composure), and be a World Class striker, as opposed to a player with a CA of 180 whose stats are all over the place. A player with 19s in half the attributes and 1s for the rest is probably going to be considered miles better than a player with 10s in everything, but they probably have the same CA. Get my point?

Chas (Psyatika)
22-01-2008, 00:04
If you don't, it's this: You should be looking for players with certain attributes to fill your squad roles, not trying to find the players with the best PA. A quick search through the Genie Scout will do that, and that will get very boring after a while.

TheFuzzyOne
22-01-2008, 00:22
PA should be variable in my opinion...

When a player is going to be the next best thing, but if he gets lazy, or injured, he might lose motivation. This affects how much you want to train.

I propose,when a player is injured, if he doesn't have a determined personality, his mental attributes drop. If he is professional, he'll just care about recovering as fast as possible, and back to training.

steves_smith
22-01-2008, 01:23
I appologise for the ignorance but, when you talk about a player having a potential of 85 or 63 or 121, is this number derived from adding up all of the players attribute values?

scoundrelly
22-01-2008, 02:44
I for one don't think that there should be PA at all. But i do think that there should be a limit on how much better players can become after they get into the game (15/16 yo).
Because i think that Messi isn't better with the ball than Hyypiä because of some magick number (PA), he is better with the ball than hyypiä, because (at least what i think) he spent most of he's days playing around with the ball when he was a kid. And i don't mean that he went to a practice and after that he went back home to watch tv. i mean that he used to be playing all the time. Thus at the age of 15 i bet he had technique of atleast 12-14. And he's mental physical attributes were also quite high, for the same reason (well, he wasn't strong but he's style of play doesn't need it that much..)

Now, back to the part where i said that there needs to be a limit, well there does, because otherwise all the players in FM would become 'perfect'. But the limit should be combination of determination, work rate and ambition.

scoundrelly
22-01-2008, 02:56
bah, forgot almost half of the stuff i was supposed to write http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyway, now, the limit on how much one player could/should improve.

I think that the maximum improvement per attribute should be 5-6. Atleast for the technical attributes. That could be gained via 'perfect' mental attributes, state of the art facilities and very good coaches.
Lets take Messi as an example again. I really don't think that he's now that much more skill full than he was, lets say, 4 years ago. Mainly he has gained mental and physical attributes. Due to growing older and having good coaches teaching him the tactical aspects of the game.

Mitja
22-01-2008, 04:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by scoundrelly:
bah, forgot almost half of the stuff i was supposed to write http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyway, now, the limit on how much one player could/should improve.

I think that the maximum improvement per attribute should be 5-6. Atleast for the technical attributes. That could be gained via 'perfect' mental attributes, state of the art facilities and very good coaches.
Lets take Messi as an example again. I really don't think that he's now that much more skill full than he was, lets say, 4 years ago. Mainly he has gained mental and physical attributes. Due to growing older and having good coaches teaching him the tactical aspects of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and of course actually playing for Barca first team, exactlly. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

postal postie
22-01-2008, 05:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheFuzzyOne:
PA should be variable in my opinion...

When a player is going to be the next best thing, but if he gets lazy, or injured, he might lose motivation. This affects how much you want to train.

I propose,when a player is injured, if he doesn't have a determined personality, his mental attributes drop. If he is professional, he'll just care about recovering as fast as possible, and back to training. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

in this example it wouldn't drop the PA. it would merely stop him from reaching his PA.

if you dont train hard enough you wont reach the PA. if you don't have the facilities to train hard then you wont reach your PA&gt;
the PA wont drop.

if a player has a long term injury then obviously he wont be training, this will result in is stats decreasing and less time to reach his PA, when you consider that once a player reaches a certain age within the game his improvements slow down.

i've had players with PA of 195 before and they never get any where near it.
the guy im thinking of only got to 145 at the age of 25.
he wont hit his pa at that late stage.

xouman
22-01-2008, 09:39
Another one that thinks as us http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I also think that messi has great attributes when he was 15. Surely he has best technique among players of his age, and some good mental attributes. barça helped his physical attributes, gave him best facilities and coaches and opportunity of top quality matches.

Tell me players who have improved a lot since they were 21 years old. Players over 21 only develope dramatically if they have a huge external change (club moving, role changed, first time matches...). And players between 16 and 21 only develope massively IF they hadn't top conditions before.

I don't believe that everybody's PA exists for everything. I agree that physical attributes have a limit and some mental attributes also do (and some are difficult to change unless a special event happens, but usually don't change). But I really think that technical attributes don't have a limit. Every technique (not only fooball ones) can be mastered. Wikipedia says "A technique is a procedure used to accomplish a specific activity or task". Paint is not an technique, but mix colours it is. Shoot to goal is a technique, know where the keeper will go is not. Know how to do some tricks with the ball is a technique, accomplish to perform them is not a technique (you need coordination and properly technique). Tackle for the ball is a technique, but without strengh and bravery you surely will fail to take the ball. If we could live 1000 years we could master (19-20 skill points) a lots of techniques, although we surely won't have as flair as del piero, strength as terry neither composure as Van Nistelrooy. But maybe I'm wrong and our destiny is written in stone.

But the main problem is that AI knows CA and PA, and uses it. Value only should depend on current attributes, performances and progression, and also this is what ai managers and coaches should take in count. Also scouts should make their idea about player future with these parameters, of course in a smarter way (last years and months progression should have the clue there).

In my current game, of course patched, a 26 years old player scored 74 goals in 42 L2 matches (wasn't mine). And no clubs were interested in him, neither his value was high. Sorry but I din't understood that. a player who scores 74 goals in a season (second scorer had 38, a good mark) and any player has interest is too weird. Surely his PA was quite normal, but IRL some championship teams would be interested.