FM: realism vs fun

I should say straight off, there are many many things in the game I really don't like (the whole agents interaction for one), and lots I do of course. But to pick on one first up: I HATE press conferences as they are currently in the game, but if you say that they are dull to a hard-core FM sort, they'll no doubt say 'oh, but they are dull and repetitive in real life, so it's accurate.' (which lets be fair is a very handy cover-all excuse to explain away any amount of lameness).

But of course, we aren't paid up to tens' of thousands of pounds to compensate us for putting up with press conferences (which from what I've seen are way way more interesting in real life than the ridiculously repetitive, imo stunningly random (oh God which button is the right one to press?!!!) and potentially disastrous to your squad's morale version in the game).

(one side note; I appreciate the new one click response for press conference questions, I really do, but i've always wondered, why do you have to then press a button to leave the press conference after it's finished? If we're trying to reduce the number of clicks and make it easier to navigate through, shouldn't we automatically leave, I mean what else is there to do in there when everyone else has left?)

But anyway, the point is, is that, by including something so dull, FM is presumably showing it's intention to be a realistic simulation of life as a manager, including even the really boring and repetitive bits (perhaps next year we will have to file our tax returns- careful what you wish for all those who want the game to expand on what you can do with your money earned).

So if the game prides itself on realism, even to the sometime detriment of fun; why is so much of it so unrealistic imo? For example when you get appointed you are toldthat you are responsible for ensuring the club stays financially sound (or something along those lines).

Now hang on a second, let's say i'm an ex footballer; I've probably spent the past 20 odd years using my head as an offensive (or perhaps defensive) weapon; and without wishing to stereotype too broadly the education of footballers, because i've been focussed on sport I've probably managed to get at most a few GCSE's, maybe one in art, say, or if I am especially academic, maybe Geography, but at any rate, I probably lack an accounting degree. Now most chairmen are pretty rich, and a lot are probably self-made, so they have to be pretty shrewd; why would any of them turn over control of their money to me?

Now I understand, that they give you a budget, so in essence they are telling you what you can spend. But if that's the case, why would they wish you to concern yourself with ANY financial aspect of the club? Can't they afford an expert in business finance to do that and who can tell me what I can spend, a high street accountant even, ANYONE, except an old pro/new manager with presumably absolutely zero knowledge of running a multi-million/billion pound business.

Which leads nicely to...

transfers.

When AC Milan for example, are in talks to sign a player, it is Adriano Galliani who leads the negotiating for the club in all the reports i've seen, Juventus, for example had Luciano Moggi (and whoever it is now) etc etc. Why on earth, in this, supposedly ultra realistic game (so pure after all, that we must suffer through the dreaded press conferences in the quest for realism) does the manager get SOLE control over the club transfers, when in real life often the manager seemingly has very little to do with who signs (perhaps we could have an internal power struggle between the manager and the managing director over transfer targets in the game)?

And what about presidential personal signings? Election promises to sign players on being appointed?

Maybe you say, in England it is different, but is it? I seem to remember Alex Ferguson for example, famously, went on holiday thinking that Gazza was going to sign, so was he really the one haggling over transfer fees or furiously negotiating with lilac-bubble speaking agents? Didn't David Dein play quite a big role in transfers at Arsenal? What about at Chelsea, did Mourinho select all the players who came in? So why are in FM, this uber realistic press conference including management sim, do I the manager have to do the negotiating with clubs and the haggling with agents?

(As a concession to those who say that people want to be in charge of transfers in the game, and a recognition that it is possible to have control, perhaps the degree of control you have could be negotiated when you are in discussions over joining, taking into account your past performance in the market and depending on the willingness of the president to relinquish control, this could affect your choice of clubs)

Last point, mentoring. Really wtf?

So you've got great coaches, full time, five star specialists, the best of the best, hand picked and brought in to work with your youngsters, perhaps they were even a legend of the game in their own right, and yet, they cannot seem to effect the critical change in your youth that a current player can. The current player may be past his best, but if you want your player to reach his potential; turn from feckless to formidable, petulant to professional, only a current player acting as mentor can achieve this miraculous transformation. WHY??????????

And here's the kicker, if you mentor retires and becomes a coach, he suddenly loses this incredible mentoring ability he previously had and is rendered as useless in this regard as the rest of your very expensive coaching corps. Again,

WHY??????????????????????????????????

And what about teams who have the youth/reserve teams away from the first team, maybe even cross town? How does that work, why would a millionaire footballer, even care anyway, about shadowing some kid through his training? Wouldn't you rather your first teamer focussed on his work, then went home to rest, not conduct more training with some kid?

I fully understand that when a young player breaks into the first team, one of the senior guys might look out for him, but what is this formal, one/two month long hook-up featured in the game? I really do not understand it.

So what is FM? A realistic sim, or a fun game? Cos, if it's fun, please ditch the press conferences, player interaction and agents.

If i've got any of this stuff hopelessly wrong, I apologize and please correct me.

The assistant manager is able to assist with certain repetitive tasks, like arranging friendlies and press conferences. Even contract renewals. Take advantage of the features, they are there so people who don't like certain aspects of the game don't have to manage them.

As for mentoring - it's overpowered, perhaps, particularly with regards to the systematic way that some players use them. I don't use it a lot, probably should more.

The assistant manager is able to assist with certain repetitive tasks, like arranging friendlies and press conferences. Even contract renewals. Take advantage of the features, they are there so people who don't like certain aspects of the game don't have to manage them.

As for mentoring - it's overpowered, perhaps, particularly with regards to the systematic way that some players use them. I don't use it a lot, probably should more.

Unfortunately, leaving something like the press conferences to your assman is a great way to upset your team. Either sit through the sludge of pc's or risk upsetting your team...no thanks. The better option would be to simply have the ability to turn them on or off.

Hmm quite an interesting post this with some interesting points

As for finance's your not put in soul control of your clubs complete finances just wage and transfer budget and its up to you to balance that i don't think you need to be a financial expert to work out what you've spent in the game or real life

As for transfers i can only think of a couple of clubs that i know of were the chairman do all the work, it may seem like the managers had no imput but i bet most do, spurs been good example redknapp as said many times daniel levy deals with all spurs deals but i bet its not done behind redknaps back levy probably ask redknapp if hes interested in certain players then then lets levy get on with the negotiations

Many good points here. I don't do press conferences so they really don't bother me much. Cannot say I have ever noticed Coton badly messing up a press conference, although some unexplained drops in morale have occurred. Mostly, the players love what he says and attributes it to me and that's that.

It is true that in RL, managers do not negotiate contracts with players, and they do not hire staff. They basically point a finger at a player and then the rest is up to the staff. The ME isn't sophisticated enough to make it a worthwhile game to play if the only thing you had responsibility of was the tactics and the matches. Computer games are about mastery, and in FM you can win by mastering quite a few different things: Transfers, youth development, tactics, morale and team talks, contract negotiation. We outsmart the AI by learning those "minigames" one by one until we are better at it than them. If you remove all of them but tactics because that is realistic, I promise you the game would be ruined.

It doesn't have to be and shouldn't be a discussion of realism OR fun. FM should be fun AND realistic! It isn't a discussion of polishing existing features or implementing new ones. We as customers should expect that SI does both!

OP: Good post. Interesting insights, but you don't really answer the realism v. fun question in the subject line, heh.

I think you're spot on with the press conferences and mentoring (I can easily game the former to my advantage and I can't recall a single successful mentoring pairing since the feature was introduced). The agent negotiation feature was terribly implemented and should be either scrapped or completely re-done for FM12. Your ideas about the financial model are kinda silly, IMO, if only because the game is designed to be immersive and you can't leave the player at the mercy of the owner. I realize that I'm about to contradict myself a bit, but it has to be done.

The short answer in the debate of realism v. fun, is both. The game should be as realistic as possible while retaining a high degree of fun. In the past few weeks, I've noticed a number of people falling out of love with the game, which means that the fun factor is falling away, whether it be for hastily tacked-on features (agents) or features that haven't been refined in several years (press conferences, transfers [i.e., I still have pay way over-value to get a player]). This means that FM is losing traction among the players who want to have a great time running a club or country for several hours on end.

I think the goal for FM12 should be to add customization. The player should make the game he/she wants. For example, I hate the agent feature, so I should be able to go into preferences and untick the box that says "Use Agents" and go back to the old negotiating style. Such tickboxes should be made available for all non-core aspects of the game, including, but not limited to, agents and press conferences. This would be very easy to implement, and should be done for FM12.

You don't have to deal with agents, or contracts in general, if you don't want to. You can ask the board to deal with the transfer for you and you can ask your assistant to renew contracts... I know it's not the same as real-life but I imagine it would be difficult to implement every different football teams way of dealing with transfers.

Take Huddersfield Town, for example, a lowly League One club... it's Dean Hoyle (owner) and Nigel Clibbens (financial director?) who deal with the transfers, Lee Clark (manager) has nothing to do with them. It's even been rumoured that certain players have been bought without Lee Clark's input at all, but how true that is I'm not sure. At other clubs the manager can be heavily involved in transfers, how do SI implement the different ways for every club? That would give you your realism... but the game would probably come on two DVD's and run slower than ever because of all the additional processing it has to do.

I think the OP is kinda hooked up on Press Conferences "oh God which button is the right one to press?!!!" etc.. Well OP, the right one to press is the one that you want to press... just know why you're pressing it and what you hope to achieve from it. Press conferences aren't about clicking and hoping, they aren't about "guesswork", they are logically linked to players morale and motivation - it's up to you to figure out the logic to "master" it! They are NOT hard, or boring, but I'll concede repetitive to a point. They are a valuable tool if used correctly, you just need to learn how to use them...

I agree with pretty much all the OP states. But then I am of an age where i played all FMs and CMs going back to CM2. I remember the times when I could play a season in a night. Its much more involved these days but I still pine for the day when a stripped down version of FM comes out that allows me to progress much faster

That's all well and good, but the fact does remain that if FM12 was significantly less involved than FM2011, it wouldn't have 800+ hours played on Steam, and it would be the last FM I buy (In fact, I might not buy it at all, based on the demo).

The thing is:

we want realism, but we also want fun...

If the game had to be 100% realistic, there would be NO WAY you could lead FC Anytown from Blue Square all the way to the Champions League final in a matter of a decade or so...

And that LLM "rags to riches" kind of save is a very popular one, usually among die-hard FMers...

So where do you draw the line? A realistic game would be frustrating and ultimately boring... I mean, who would play 10+ seasons at a yo-yo club between League One and League Two, with ZERO chances of ever getting better?

Back OT...

* Press conferences are boring and repetitive, but the pattern is quite easy to figure out. Just the complacency part is a bit more tricky, but the rest is really a piece of cake.

* Managers handling every aspect of the club's life... Once again a matter of pseudo-realism for the sake of fun... Of course in real life managers don't go out to watch and sign players, but considering the AI still sucks big time, the game would be terrible if we had to manage a squad the AI chairman/DoF made for us...

A toggable "Director of Football signs and sells players" option would be great though... That'd be an actual challenge... let's try to bring success to a club filled with mediocre players... It's all too easy winning trophies left center and right when the AI sucks at scouting and you don't

You asked for Mascherano and you get Muntari instead... have fun!

* Mentoring is bad. Even ignoring the awkwardness of that situation in real life, the in-game mentoring is just blah...

Personalities are described with ONE ADJECTIVE, which is nowhere near enough to make us understand (or even "guess") if and how mentor and mentee will work together.

Not to mention the fact mentoring should hardly affect one's personality... At best it should work on the in-game mental traits... A veteran can help a youngster to "understand" the game, but he won't turn a lazy hothead into a mild-mannered stakhanovist...

So IMO tutoring needs to go, at least as a mean to "fix" a player's personality.

I think tutoring should go too - instead let the youngsters adapt to the "general personality type" of the first team squad as well as players they look up to both in the nation, world and club.

yeah i think tutoring in its current state should go, i just cannot see it working the same way in reality as it does in FM. A more general take on tutoring would be better i think.

I agree with many of the points mentioned, but I don't really get why so many are claiming press conferences will muck up team morale. My assman is doing that, has for years on end over many iterations, and with only rare exceptions do players take offense to what he is saying. I do try to get decent man management into them so maybe that's part of why he is decent at it. The press conferences are WAY too boring and repetitive, so the assman is the only option (even if he was terrible at it, which he is not). Even press conferences when signing players is boring to me, though I do usually do them.

Tutoring is probably too powerful, so I don't use it much. Good shout on staff having zero impact btw, hadn't thought about that. Very good point and something that should be worked on for FM12 and beyond.

Harry Redknapp was interviewed last season on Football Focus and he suggested that he doesn't get involved in negotiating with agents or agreeing wages with players. This, he said, was up to his chairman. He said he wouldn't actually have much of an idea how much the players at Spurs were being paid.

Transfers and contracts are areas realism has to budge a little bit for playability. Particularly transfers. Sure, we could just name some names we'd like and then let the AI chairman do his best, but the game wouldn't be as engaging then.

I think that's how it works in most clubs. The manager gives some names of players he'd like to be signed to the chairman and than he negotiate but if that was the way it worked in FM then the game would not be as fun as it is and I think that when you play a game the most important is to have fun and actually make some effort to sign the player you want and not just press some buttons.

Transfers and contracts are areas realism has to budge a little bit for playability. Particularly transfers. Sure, we could just name some names we'd like and then let the AI chairman do his best, but the game wouldn't be as engaging then.

I think that's how it works in most clubs. The manager gives some names of players he'd like to be signed to the chairman and than he negotiate but if that was the way it worked in FM then the game would not be as fun as it is and I think that when you play a game the most important is to have fun and actually make some effort to sign the player you want and not just press some buttons.

I don't disagree guys.

I'm still not that keen on agents in the game though.

Thanks for the replies

I definitely agree that signing players is a huge part of the fun of the game, but if you are prepared to substitute realism for fun in that area, why not in other areas, like press conferences, which quite a lot of people (i think) don't like atm?

People who defend them say that they are dull, repetetive etc irl, so it's acceptable for them to be like that in the game. I don't agree with that view at all, it's a game so it should be enjoyable first and foremost and too many of the new features for me just don't add much fun (or depth imo) at the moment (player interaction, press conferences, agents, mentoring etc.)

With regards to transfers, I just think that the amount of control you have should vary at different stages in the game, according to things like your reputation, you transfer record, how controlling/hands on the president of a club is etc; not only would it be more realistic imo, it would help to start differentiating between clubs and presidents, so you would actually have to weigh up the level of control etc on offer from different clubs, before you agree to sign; would you prefer to stay at a smaller club with complete control from the youth side up, or would you be happy to go to a bigger club with less control offered, at least initially?

At the moment it seems to me that nothing you do really has that much consequence, which is a big negative for me. Irl managers all have different strengths and reputations based on more than just their level of fame; some are renowned as great tacticians, but are widely regarded as less than great in the transfer market; some great at transfers, less so at tactics etc. Base on your past transfer deals, would a chairmen really be happy to give you hundreds' of millions of their money to spend; would the fans want you to be in charge?

I don't know if any of this would actually be technically possible to implement at the moment or even be desired by many, but you never know - I think it would be good!

p.s completely unrelated to transfers, but one thing that is annoying to me is that you can spend years at a club, leave and you are never mentioned again, no comparing the new manager to you, no fans ripping up season tickets demanding your return six months into a disastrous new regime etc - it's a MANAGEMENT game, I want to feel appreciated and wanted dammit!!

sad isn't it

i have found the press conferences better in recent times. there does seem to be more questions and now and again i get 1 i haven't seen before. however they could still be improved by a long way.

on the transfer side i like choosing who i sign and if i dont like the demands then i just pull out of a deal. leaving it to the ai could lead to me having players on stupid wages that i cant shift or even players i dont even want. to me the most fun part of the game is building your own team. signing a 16 year old regen and making him a top class player is such a good feeling.

the finances side is very important in the game. those of us who have played for years know we have to get this side of things right and generally do. there are so many newbies who post money related questions on the forum on a daily basis, they dont know how to keep this under control. just sticking to your budget isn't the answer. ok real life managers dont deal with this but i would sooner deal with the money than let the ai do it!

agree with the last comment above. u can win everything for 20 years but if u retire the manager u get like a 2 line news item. sadly can't see this changing because its probably seen as unimportant in the game.

I'm all for realism. Last "fun" FM was FM07, but now FM is getting more realistic, which is more fun to me. I still play FM07 when I just want to pwn some nubs

I don't think the issue is realism vs. fun so much as it is an issue of enforcing a simulation vs. allowing player agency.

In other words, what makes the game frustrating and boring at times (more for some than others) is the sense that player input doesn't matter in order to ensure that overall table and tourney results remain realistic. The main way this comes into play is through player motivation and there are several things that affect player motivation that are beyond the player's control. Complacency is one example as it is essentially designed to sweep the legs out from under overly successful tactical tweakers. If you win too many games, complacency builds and your chance of a loss increases as player performances drop. If you win a game by too great a margin, the game often instantly "rewards" your achievement with unmotivated players. Yes, you can slightly mitigate these effects with man management, but there is no foolproof method.

Along the same lines, as any player can find out with a little experimentation, player interaction is largely randomized. While player personalities obviously make some reactions more likely than others, it still all comes down to the pseudorandom number generator. Tutoring requests, individual exchanges and even team talks have a significant random element in determining how players react, and since player motivation essentially determines whether your tactic even has a chance at being successful, this means that match-to-match results are essentially random, though weighted more in one or another team's favor based on the mental qualities of their players.

Add to that the fact that much of the game seems to be a black box to prevent players from easily discovering what they're doing wrong and you have a game that, for the sake of simulation, consistently tamps down on player agency. And this is precisely where Football Manager begins to feel less fun. If player input only really matters up to a certain point, what is the point of pouring so much time into press conferences, player interactions and match highlights.

There is, however, a good middleground. Basically, the more a game leans towards being a simulation, the less it should demand of a player. Additional, time-consuming features and lengthy matches should only be implemented if player input is the end-all, be-all of the game rather than merely an aspect severely limited by random elements and various mechanisms used to ensure realistic table results (e.g., complacency, pressure, etc.). However, if the game emphasizes ensuring realism over the efficacy of player input, it should be less time-consuming and simpler to play. Players should, if they choose, be able to breeze through seasons to get to the parts where their decisions are actually going to have a consistent, significant effect (in other words, the transfer window) rather than laboring through mini-game after mini-game in the mere hope that their input might marginally increase the probability of the RNG churning out a favorable result.

The only reason for control over transfers to be taken away from human managers would be to even out the field. Unfortunatly the AI transferpolicy isn't all that intelligent. They are still bad at investing for the future and keeping young talents and developing them. I'm currently 20+ seasons into the game and the lack of home grown players in any country makes the european competitions rather strange. Spent several years building up my Sampdoria squad to contain enough home grown players to make a decent champions league squad. Less than a season after I went to look for a new challange in another country much of the very successful team I had put together there has been sold out and replaced by worse players without HG status. Either the AI needs to get better in the transfermarket or we need to get worse or more limited to make longterm games challanging.

Pressconferences can be handled by the assistant manager and if you are not happy with how he does them get a new one. One that your team agrees with can usually be found. I can agree that they get repetetive but I have found they don't really require much thinking, I just click the same things all the time and 99/100 it works well enough.

The whole mentor thing I only use very occationally, I could probably use it more and gain more advantages from it but as it is right now I don't really need more advantages in team development.

To be honest, I feel like it's more fun when I get a long way into the game and it feels like my own world rather than when I start over again with a top division team. On the subject of press conferences, I recently went back to my FM09 game and didn't realise how bad they were back then. To be fair they've improved on them a fair bit but they're still pretty awful, in terms of how easy it is to ruin squad morale as you said. I don't let things that wouldn't happen in real life ruin my fun though, I'd rather it was fun than realistic.

The only reason for control over transfers to be taken away from human managers would be to even out the field. Unfortunatly the AI transferpolicy isn't all that intelligent. They are still bad at investing for the future and keeping young talents and developing them. I'm currently 20+ seasons into the game and the lack of home grown players in any country makes the european competitions rather strange. Spent several years building up my Sampdoria squad to contain enough home grown players to make a decent champions league squad. Less than a season after I went to look for a new challange in another country much of the very successful team I had put together there has been sold out and replaced by worse players without HG status. Either the AI needs to get better in the transfermarket or we need to get worse or more limited to make longterm games challanging.

Pressconferences can be handled by the assistant manager and if you are not happy with how he does them get a new one. One that your team agrees with can usually be found. I can agree that they get repetetive but I have found they don't really require much thinking, I just click the same things all the time and 99/100 it works well enough.

The whole mentor thing I only use very occationally, I could probably use it more and gain more advantages from it but as it is right now I don't really need more advantages in team development.

Actually, the AI isn't programmed to deal with HG status at all. In addition, players who should have had HG-status after the game's own rules are not getting it. I have had to use FMRTE to give players who have been at the club for not only three but four, five and six years before they turned 21 HG status because they didn't get one.

To be honest, I feel like it's more fun when I get a long way into the game and it feels like my own world rather than when I start over again with a top division team. .

This 100%

I personally turn press conferences over to my AM and can't say that I've ever had one who causes me any sort of continuous trouble. The only negativity tends to arrive, much in the same way as with team talks, where a scrappy win, combined with a "you need to do better next time" (or something along those lines), causes a bit of dissention

You make many good points OP, and I am really pleased to see that most of the conversation here is nice, fluid and polite.

I agree with all of your points. I guess to a point SI are trying to make this game as realistic as possible without neglecting the parts that make it fun (I would be that for 80% of FM players out there, the transfer market is the best part of the game).

However, I do agree that it seems a bit silly to have to put up with press conferences because they are realistic, and then give an option to never, ever have to be in one if you send your assistant. OR how unrealistic is to see a manager meeting with an agent and agreeing how much money the player is going to get out of a possible future sale. Makes no sense whatsoever.

My suggestion is the following: Just like we can unclick some options before starting a game (fake players, add staff, etc), we should get a grid of options to click/unclick. That way most people would be happy with their saves.

For instance, a list of optional game aspects such as:

[ ] Transfer market (the manager can sign and sell, or the manager only gives suggestions and waits)

[ ] Press Conferences

[ ] Mentoring (Although I agree that this one NEEDS to be fixed by being able to mentor players with your actual staff

[ ] Finances (the manager is able to see them, or not). How cool would it be to see that your chairman tells you "the club has no money whatsoever" and then see dividends paid to the board? An extra dimension to the game--if you trust your chairman, or if you want to go somewhere else where the future of the club will be more important than greed.

...And so on.

Basically, it would be optional for the player to be a completely hands-on player, or have a save like I'm sure lots of people in the llm community, for example, would love: you don't know how much money you have (only how much you can spend), you suggest players, or maybe have a chat with them and tell them to come to your club (then it's off to the actual person who handles the transfers at your club); you only make the most our of your players and actively play a role in who signs/leaves. That's it. A Football Manager.

How can you guys dislike the agent system?

I think its great! Okay its very annoying when the agent decide that his player will not sign for my club, but that's only a part of the game!

I like it how the agents work for the best of his player both in negotiations and by trying to "sell" his player to me, I have picked up countless of semi obscure players I never ever needed because some agent suggested him to me and the contract negotiations went very well.

Actually, the AI isn't programmed to deal with HG status at all. In addition, players who should have had HG-status after the game's own rules are not getting it. I have had to use FMRTE to give players who have been at the club for not only three but four, five and six years before they turned 21 HG status because they didn't get one.

Well then they should program them to deal with it because it is needed to make the big european tournaments competitive. Ok if you have to leave one or two spaces open due to not being able to fill the requirements but when pretty much every team can fill one or two HG spots and that by registering fringe players it gets weird. Still haven't had issues with players not gaining the status when they are supposed to but have screwed up a couple by loaning the player out to another country while working on getting HG status for them.

Other than that my previous comments about the transfersystem was more in general, only used HG as an example. The AI will probably never be as adept as a human manager at dealing but right now when you get a few seasons into the game you actually notices how stupid they have acted and still are acting in the transfermarket. Old players get played way too long after their decline and then get replaced by another player that is close to start declining, good quality youth players are way too easy to buy if you set out to do so. I didn't spent much money on players when I built the Sampdoria squad that became one of the dominant forces in European football for several years. AI-controlled teams part with their prospects way too easilly and replaces them with players that are past their peak.

Sorry to disagree, but mentoring in FM is far far too UNDER-POWERED. Mentoring is crucial for any youngster, even more so in sport. Young sports-people need examples of how to act and need inspiration. You can have a massive respect for a great coach or manager but you're never attempting to emulate them because your job is fundamentally different, hence why a coach can't mentor in FM but a young player can have a coach as favored personnel. A mentor needs to be someone doing the same job and the impact of a good mentor can NEVER be underestimated.

Whilst a real-world mentoring system is probably nowhere near as formal as it is in FM I would be extremely surprised if any decent sports club didn't employ some form of mentoring system. There is no need for Guardiola to tell young midfielders to look up to Xavi & Iniesta but they will do anyway, probably on and off the pitch (although a good on-field mentor does not necessarily make a good off-field mentor )

This thread is one of the most common on these forums. Crops all the time. I always say the same thing - basically, realism and fun isn't a "vs." thing. Realism is the fun side of this game for me. If FM didn't strive for the levels of realism that it does, it wouldn't be as successful. The more realism the better for me. Though I will freely admit that not everything is a complete success, particularly press conferences, which I still find too dull and repetitive. I've loved negotiating with agents, though (ironic, given that that can also be repetitive).

This thread is one of the most common on these forums. Crops all the time. I always say the same thing - basically, realism and fun isn't a "vs." thing. Realism is the fun side of this game for me. If FM didn't strive for the levels of realism that it does, it wouldn't be as successful. The more realism the better for me. Though I will freely admit that not everything is a complete success, particularly press conferences, which I still find too dull and repetitive. I've loved negotiating with agents, though (ironic, given that that can also be repetitive).

+1 for me

So you say you find the realism boring having to do press confrences etc.

but then you ask why we have controll over buying players?? thats one of the fun parts of the game signing your own players id hate it if i had no role in signing players...

in my opinion: realism = fun

true story.

Depends.

We could be ordering how cut the grass should be, how wet it should be, from a day to day basis. Don't think that would be fun

in my opinion: realism = fun

true story.

So you think that all the managers around the World are having fun doing their job? I don't think so.

I think the OP is kinda hooked up on Press Conferences "oh God which button is the right one to press?!!!" etc.. Well OP, the right one to press is the one that you want to press... just know why you're pressing it and what you hope to achieve from it. Press conferences aren't about clicking and hoping, they aren't about "guesswork", they are logically linked to players morale and motivation - it's up to you to figure out the logic to "master" it! They are NOT hard, or boring, but I'll concede repetitive to a point. They are a valuable tool if used correctly, you just need to learn how to use them...

I'll have to disagree on this last point-- PC's are EXTREMEMLY boring. Same answers to the same questions every single time. I guess I've "learned how to use them" as I've never had a problem with squad happiness. Doesn't make it any less annoying to sit through the same questions over and over and over and over...

So you think that all the managers around the World are having fun doing their job? I don't think so.

What has that got to do with anything? The point is that realism is fun. Nobody is saying actual football management in real life is constant fun. You can't compare the two things. FM is a game. Effectively, it doesn't matter. It affects nobody how you do. It's a simulation of football management without the real-life consequences. How much fun real-life managers have in their jobs is irrelevant. We all know it can be an unpleasant experience at times. But FM doesn't actually get you sacked, except in the game! And anyway, nobody who values the realistic element of the game would say that you should make it an almost carbon-copy of real life. The human player will always need complete control of things like transfers. Nobody would change that.

Depends.

We could be ordering how cut the grass should be, how wet it should be, from a day to day basis. Don't think that would be fun

Some of us live for that stuff..

FM isn't anything like real football management in that I suspect the "best" FM manager in the world would not necessarily be a great manger in real life - because managment is all about interacting with real people and judging players by watching them in training etc.

That said, in order to be fun, FM does have to give the impression that it is like reality so that you can become immersed in the experience. For this reason, including real world things like press conferences is ok im my opinion (but I get my assistant to do them )

I have to say I agree on Press Conferences. They are repetitive and predictable, I also dislike the notion that saying the opposite of reality would motivate the players, I've never heard a top manager say playing a minnow in the cup causes them sleepless nights, and if I were a player in the team I'd doubt the credibility.

This is along the same lines as team talks, there's limited options and a repetitive feel to them.

On transfer control, I like the idea of having various degrees depending on the chairman, a couple of versions ago, Sugar Daddys would go out and buy a star for you if you hadn't transferred anyone in. This should be part of the seasonable negotiations or at least on contract negotiations, but there would have to be a risk that the club is financially mismanaged by those above e.g. a Portsmouth, Plymouth or Leeds, be prepared to have your game destroyed by the AI when you take less control.

I'm mostly neutral to mentoring although it does seem too prevalent in game, with some AI teams having 4 or 5 seniors tutoring youths, if feels that this is probably more of a rarity in reality and it's probably small words of advice here and there. Maybe it should be more generalised and a benefit of having players 33+ that the youth team as a whole gets slightly improved development, the temptation in FM is for a Logan's Run approach to the over 30s as they start to degrade technicals and physicals.

With the risk of sounding like a broken record, I agree with most of what the OP said. ESPECIALLY the transfer market stuff. It's simply neither realistic, nor fun, that you can sign the best players, all the time without anyone ever interfering with your signings. Would you be able to sign some no-name Brazilian (say) and pay him a fifth of your salary cap just because in the last 5 seasons of FM he's become a superstar? Of course NO ONE would be able to do that in real life with the possible exception of Murinho, Ferguson and Guardiola. Implementing a DoF would also help level the playing field between humans and the AI. I don't think it's that hard to offer an option to have the AI manage your transfers. The fun doesn't have to be sucked out of the game if you chose this option! Scouting targets, countries and final decisions from a set of players should still be in your hands. Thus you are given a huge share of control (scounting, final decisions, etc.) but are still limited by things such as not being able to exploit your budget or future income.

I would love to see this feature in FM2012 and, again, with the risk of sounding like a broken record I'll keep on insisting for it!

What has that got to do with anything? The point is that realism is fun.

To you, it is. For a lot of people, they'd rather do away with press conferences and agents, because they are a chore. Clearly, here, to them, realism isn't equal to fun.

As a result, I'd avoid placing my own opinions on others.

Personally, I'd like a system in place where, when you want a player you have the choice of handling the transfer yourself, or letting a DoF or Chairman handle it for you. If they handle it, they then present you with the final deal for your approval or rejection, meaning you still have overall control of how the budget is spent. I think this would be the easiest and most agreeable solution for everyone.

Money should be the place where realism kicks in. It allows you to buy the proven players and keep the ones in your squad easier.

For example if Newcastle sign a wonderkid in RL and he sets the Premiership on fire you bet that he'll be playing for a club who will offer him more money/better chance of silverware inside a couple of seasons.

In fact having to replace lost stars in way the game can add realistic challenges; couple this with the fact that Newcastle will struggle to attract the top drawer players means that you don't have to rely on botched press conferences or your tactic stopping working to add a challenge. The squad you are able to assemble in RL determines how successful a club will be and so it should be in FM.

And in order to allow us to take our club to success not possible in RL we should get the option to have sugar daddy options - one investing tens of millions and one investing hundreds of millions - and the pressures it brings.

Otherwise if you chose to be Stoke with realistic finances then you should content yourself with mid-table Prem finishes and domestic/Europa cup runs.