Lots of aerobic training yet pace goes down on 21 year old (what is the point)

Anyone else ****ed off with this? I have a 21 year old striker (Fabian Brandy) who has just gone from 17 to 16 in pace even though I have high aerobic training and individual focus on quickness and match prep is on very low so he has 90% training and has for the last 2 months of the season now. I really dont get it, my training stars are 4 out of 5 for aerobic and my training facilities are 14 out of 20 after I checked in the editor so why on earth has he dropped in pace?

Seriously SI what the hell is the point in adding dozens of new features to the game that actually do sod all.

Bit of advice SI, don't bring out FM12 just bring out a database update for fm11 and spend the year fixing stuff and putting new things in fm13 that actually work. Oh and while your at it maybe with that extra time we could maybe have the game around september next year rather than november and then having a patch that makes the game work by the time the season is nearly over.

Have a year off or I fear FM will go the same way as FM Live.

Aerobic training will improve fitness and stamina surely, not pace. Pace is Anaerobically trained. Also what percentage is his quickness training on in relation to the rest of his training?

In FM, "aerobic" actually covers acceleration, agility, balance, jumping and pace, while "strength" covers natural fitness, stamina and strength.

Not sure why OP is seeing drops though, maybe injury/fitness related?

No strength training improves fitness and stamina, aerobic improves pace, acceleration, balance, agility, jumping. It says if you click on the training what catagory it is in. And the quicknes training is individual and therefore should make him imprive in that catagory should it not? it uses 10% of overall training and that is fixed. so again......... why has my striker lost pace?

In FM, "aerobic" actually covers acceleration, agility, balance, jumping and pace, while "strength" covers natural fitness, stamina and strength.

Not sure why OP is seeing drops though, maybe injury/fitness related?

He was injured about 3 weeks previous but only for 6 days, surley that wouldnt effect it. He has started every game other than wen he was out 6 days. Was a stubbed toe or something.

What are Brandy's mental and hidden attributes like?

Could be he's just rubbish at training.

Sometimes random stuff seems to happen, for example I've had players who had their pace go up and their acceleration goes down or vice versa, what explanation can there be for that kind of thing. Anyway if you play another 6 months or so I'd be surprised if he hasn't at least recovered that lost pace, that is unless he is already at his full potential which I guess he isn't yet.

The injury is probably the reason. The behind-the-scenes attribute value is on a much larger scale which is then rounded to the nearest point on the 20 step scale for display, so a quite small drop can result in what looks like a full 1 point drop on the 20 scale due to rounding. On the upside, injury/fitness related drops should come back up after a while.

Is he getting 1st team matches?

i didnt know that, i would have thought speed would have been in the strength training seeing as it anaerobically trained! Still that why I love these forums, learn something new about the game all the time:)

i didnt know that, i would have thought speed would have been in the strength training seeing as it anaerobically trained! Still that why I love these forums, learn something new about the game all the time:)

Go into any of your players' profiles, Training tab, Attribute Development tab, then pick a category from the Training Category drop-down and the exact attributes affected by it will be highlighted.

Is he getting 1st team matches?

Yeah plays every game, has superb morale, 7.8 av rating. I guess it must have been the 6 day injury that did it but he hasnt regained his stats yet. Guess behind the scenes his pace rating must be on the 16.5 mark. Just seems a bit stupid that 3 months into the season and all that training doesnt make his pace go up at all yet a 6 day stubbed toe loses him pace that hasnt come back yet. Surely that isnt realistic.

Depends, every attribute is based on a 1-200 scale.

He could have simply dropped from 155 (which would be rounded up to 16 pace) to 154 (which would be rounded down to 15).

I just feel annoyed about it as I spent about 2 hours at the start of the game designing training schedules, getting good coaches and setting up specific training for each player only for my main 21 year old striker to get worse. 2 hours of my day wasted.

In the long term your training schedule will probably be worthwhile, but you do need to look at it long term.

What determination does he have, and do your coaches say anything about professionalism on his training report? Oh, and what description does he have on his personal screen?

Ackter may be onto something with the training thing. What's Brandy's personality description and media handling style?

EDIT: Beaten to it.

Depends, every attribute is based on a 1-200 scale.

He could have simply dropped from 155 (which would be rounded up to 16 pace) to 154 (which would be rounded down to 15).

Yeah I get that part, I know the number its just I dont understand why he started with 17 pace and he has had 3 months of very good training which is focussed on making him quicker and during that 3 months he has improved not a bit and then he gets injured for 6 days and drops. Doesnt matter how much he drops the fact that after 3 months of aerobic training a very small injury can do more damage than 3 months of training can do good seems insane.

In the long term your training schedule will probably be worthwhile, but you do need to look at it long term.

What determination does he have, and do your coaches say anything about professionalism on his training report? Oh, and what description does he have on his personal screen?

Coach has no comments regarding training, he is happy with training, his determination is 14 and his personality is balanced.

Will keep an eye on it and report back after he has had another couple of months training.

Haha looking at his personal info screen his middle name is Earlston lol

A stubbed toe will count as a leg injury which can* have a short term effect on physical attributes, though it'll be minimal as it's such a small injury.

The longer injuries can ruin players at times.

*I'm not saying this is what's happened, but it might be a contributing factor.

Here's a fun one (which you probably won't be able to work out), has he put on any weight?

Here's a fun one (which you probably won't be able to work out), has he put on any weight?

Lol Ill check that one, I have a save from the start that I use when starting a new game instead of creating a new game so ill check what his weight is on that......................

11 st 0 lb now and....................................... 11 st 0 lb at the start, so the same. Ill give it some more time and see if he gets the stats back. Still anoying after all that training though.

Yeah I get that part, I know the number its just I dont understand why he started with 17 pace and he has had 3 months of very good training which is focussed on making him quicker and during that 3 months he has improved not a bit and then he gets injured for 6 days and drops. Doesnt matter how much he drops the fact that after 3 months of aerobic training a very small injury can do more damage than 3 months of training can do good seems insane.

He may not have gained enough CA to raise his pace attribute during those 3 months.

You didn't really answer the question regarding professionalism or determination, did you?

Get coach reports and scout reports from all your staff and look for personality indicators, particularly professionalism.

One more thing, pace is a costly key attribute for a striker. It could be that your training has it balanced like a lopsided see-saw with other development demands. And it is possible that he's close to his PA already. Does happen.

Training as far as I'm aware affects the distribution of stats and doesn't have much of an effect increasing CA. It could be that other parts of his training are sending CA points elsewhere. It takes far less for a ST to get his tackling up 1 point than his finishing, the weighting isn't overly complex and I'm not putting the exact figures I've seen in the DB on here but basically if you have a ST with 12 notches for aerobic, 4 notches for defensive it may be his tackling goes up a point and then a point has to come from somewhere else, dropping a point of pace will free up 1 or 2 CA, which can then improve 3/4/5 of his lesser abilities relating to defending.

The injury is probably the reason. The behind-the-scenes attribute value is on a much larger scale which is then rounded to the nearest point on the 20 step scale for display, so a quite small drop can result in what looks like a full 1 point drop on the 20 scale due to rounding. On the upside, injury/fitness related drops should come back up after a while.

This, you can actually see the larger scale on the attribute development tab if you switch the view to graph

You didn't really answer the question regarding professionalism or determination, did you?

Get coach reports and scout reports from all your staff and look for personality indicators, particularly professionalism.

One more thing, pace is a costly key attribute for a striker. It could be that your training has it balanced like a lopsided see-saw with other development demands. And it is possible that he's close to his PA already. Does happen.

Yes I said his determination is 14 out of 20. Also his proffesionalism is 16 out of 20, I checked in the editor.

Training as far as I'm aware affects the distribution of stats and doesn't have much of an effect increasing CA. It could be that other parts of his training are sending CA points elsewhere. It takes far less for a ST to get his tackling up 1 point than his finishing, the weighting isn't overly complex and I'm not putting the exact figures I've seen in the DB on here but basically if you have a ST with 12 notches for aerobic, 4 notches for defensive it may be his tackling goes up a point and then a point has to come from somewhere else, dropping a point of pace will free up 1 or 2 CA, which can then improve 3/4/5 of his lesser abilities relating to defending.

Defending training is set to 0. Aerobic is the highest of everything then shooting, ball control and tactics. I taylor made it for fast strikers. I didnt mention before but none of his other stats have gone up at all but a few others have gone down. Other players dont seem to be having a problem at the moment just him.

It does take a while for CA points (once freed up) to redistribute, and the notches of defensive training were just an example. I don't know the figures but say for example he has a CA of 121, dropping a point of pace would in theory free up at least 1 point of CA. Then depending on training other attributes will go up afterwards.

Providing hes training well, young (below 30) his CA won't just decrease so something is going wrong somewhere else then if it is. Either he's joined you and your facilities are of very poor quality, your coaches are only part time and/or poor quality or he's on a part time contract.

It does take a while for CA points (once freed up) to redistribute, and the notches of defensive training were just an example. I don't know the figures but say for example he has a CA of 121, dropping a point of pace would in theory free up at least 1 point of CA. Then depending on training other attributes will go up afterwards.

Providing hes training well, young (below 30) his CA won't just decrease so something is going wrong somewhere else then if it is. Either he's joined you and your facilities are of very poor quality, your coaches are only part time and/or poor quality or he's on a part time contract.

And thats why im complaining because I am Rotherham, I have 4 star coaching on aerobic, all full time, he is full time, good facilities. Realisticly he should improve not get worse due to a 6 day injury.

Like I say though I shall see what happens over the coming months game time.

And thats why im complaining because I am Rotherham, I have 4 star coaching on aerobic, all full time, he is full time, good facilities. Realisticly he should improve not get worse due to a 6 day injury.

actually realistically it, he may have only just been in the 17, range, and its dropped to a high 16. Happened to me with Eriksen, after a 13 day injury and he regained it. Look at his attribute delevopment graph to find out, the graph display shows the detail between the points that you dont see normally

Have you checked the box for attribute development? If he has had a period of poor training, try chatting with him, telling him that he hasn't been working hard enough in training. This seems to help.

I don't know why this happens with otherwise professional, fully fit players, though. It is information I would like to have in the future.

Have you checked the box for attribute development? If he has had a period of poor training, try chatting with him, telling him that he hasn't been working hard enough in training. This seems to help.

I don't know why this happens with otherwise professional, fully fit players, though. It is information I would like to have in the future.

Just tried that and told him he needed to work harder in training to keep his first team spot even though he has 17 goals in about 15 games and an av rating of around 8 :S and he admited he hadnt been good enough and will try harder in future. We shall see what happens.

Just tried that and told him he needed to work harder in training to keep his first team spot even though he has 17 goals in about 15 games and an av rating of around 8 :S and he admited he hadnt been good enough and will try harder in future. We shall see what happens.

Training performance and match performance are two different things. Basically, just check the development of attributes in the training screen. If the curves are tipping down on several attributes, let him hear it in private. But be sure that it is a couple of months since last time you did this because if it is too soon he will react badly.

Could this be one of those situations where a player gains points in his weaker foot (for no reason) which somehow causes him to become slower and less able to strike a ball? Stuff like that really irks me...some attributes have no business counting against CA/PA. For me, the biggest joy I get from playing the game is watching a player develop. I've had countless players grow over the course of four or five months at a time and perform solidly on the pitch, only to get my monthly training update and find out that they've dropped in four or five categories despite having the exact same (and sometimes higher) training level for that past month.

Been 3 nearly 4 months I think now since the injury and he still hasnt regained pace.

Been 3 nearly 4 months I think now since the injury and he still hasnt regained pace.

Are pace and acceleration training curves flatlining?

even with the perfect training schedule set up a player can have a bad few weeks where he isnt training as hard as he should be, give him a kick up the backside and see if it helps.

Defending training is set to 0. Aerobic is the highest of everything then shooting, ball control and tactics. I taylor made it for fast strikers. I didnt mention before but none of his other stats have gone up at all but a few others have gone down. Other players dont seem to be having a problem at the moment just him.

Could it be you're over-training him, hence having a counter-productive effect? I'm sure in real life there's some sort of proved effect that if you go beyond a certain limit, the athlete won't improve, his body won't have the time to recover in-between each training session, because it's actually during the resting time that an athlete wins physical performance as the body naturally recovers from his strained muscles.

But I'm hardly a fitness expert and have no idea whether FM simulates this or not. I'd be careful not going too extreme with strenght and/or aerobic training though.

Are pace and acceleration training curves flatlining?

they have not gone up at all the line is straight then a step down and then its been straight ever since then. So he isnt worsening further but not increasing either.

From what I've seen, too many games in succession, with no chance to regain full fitness, won't help either, .

From what I've seen, too many games in succession, with no chance to regain full fitness, won't help either, .

Jesus, what do you need to do to get him to regain his attributes.

As I write this I have noticed that he has now lost pace again, graph has it down to the 16 mark now so roughly gone from 16.6 to 16.3 and now to 16.0 and he has not been injured at all, his form is great, he is happy and training fine and the schedule is focussed on his speed. Absolutely stupid that he should keep losing pace like this.

Have you had a go at him in a private chat? Have you rested him properly?

There is ALWAYS a reason for something like this.

I still maintain my theory that it's over-training...

I still maintain my theory that it's over-training...

Will put him on the default training schedule for strikers and see. His current training is medium but bordering on high, maybe 2 clicks away.

Have you had a go at him in a private chat? Have you rested him properly?

There is ALWAYS a reason for something like this.

Yes and yes, bollocked him a few times and he is 92-97% fit at the start of games at mo. I rest him for cup games and sometimes easy home games. May be a reason but its a pain finding out.

More FM micro-management. Might as well buy Business Manager or something. Don't SI realise that making FM soooo micro-management is taking away the FUN? Even when player go in depth into the game it hardly ever bares fruit.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true, though I could maybe see it lower mass appeal. I for one like to micro-management, at least to a degree. But yes, that certainly assumes that it does bear fruit. I think training does if you take a more long-term view of it, but in the short-term there are certainly things like the OP's attribute drop that are hard and somewhat frustrating to trace. In this case the main issue seems to be that a stubbed toe counts as a leg injury that can hamper the player's speed for quite some time (permanently?), more than anything else.

From fiddling about with training and doing a few experiments it seems that you cannot influence if attributes go up or not, only by how much they go up or by how little they go down. I just ran a 2 season holiday test with spurs and bought Neymar who is good at training and has lots of potential to improve and Podolski who trains poorly and always loses 2 or 3 points to pace and finishing over a season and a half with normal training. I then set them on training with the Aerobic bar at full intense training along with shooting and had strength on light and everything else was on 1 click. After 2 seasons Podolski had not had any raises in shooting or pace but he had recieved much smaller reductions when the reductions hit him meaning he had not actualy lost any full points on his main profile in shooting and on the graph it showed about 0.3 drop instead of the usual 1.5ish and he had lost only 1 point in pace on his profile instead of the usual 2 and on the graph it showed a loss of I think around 0.75 or something instead of the usual 1.5-2. He is a bad trainer so naturally he had lost loads in off the ball, anticipation etc but more than usual although he didnt seem to have more attribute loss spikes just larger ones when they came. Neymar on the other hand who has huge potential and is a good trainer (high determination and professionalism) Had both upwards and downward spikes for shooting and pace, he had gained 1 in pace and acceleration on his profile and on his graph it showed 4 up spikes and 2 down resulting in about a 1.6 increase in acceleration and 1.2 in pace overall which isnt much different to him being on default training, his shooting also went up 1 point but......................... the thing that interested me is that he had hardy lost any attributes in off the ball, passing, dribbling etc even though i set the training for those catagories to 1 click from none!! in fact he had improved his off the ball and technique and even though they had small dips over the 2 years it really wasnt many times and wasnt much when it did and the graph still showed increases although only about maybe 0.2 when they did improve they still did.

So make of that what you will but to me it says that training certainly doesnt work as it ought to. I dont think even a rocket scientist could get a player to improve the way he should using the in game training.

Sometimes it seems like fast players are not aloud to be technichly (sp) any good and if a player is over about 19 then if you dont force it not to then the game seems to want to take away a players physical attributes all the time and replace them with technical and mental ones no matter what. Seems very unrealistic to me, you wouldnt train a player in real life and tell him to become slower so he can improve his finishing would you?

Another thing with physical attributes is that when a players CA is nearly reached then he will start to lose lose pyhsichal attributes every few months from then on and you cannot do a thing about it no matter what his age.