Where has all the fun gone? (my issues with fm11)

I wouldn't say this is the worst FM ever. Far from it. But it is the version I amongst others have enjoyed the least.

So heres a little list of my problems and suggestions on some ways they could be hopefully improved upon in the future. Feel free to add your suggestions also.

Tactics

This is the area I would like to see improved the most.

I am realy not a fan of the new system. I can apreciate the need to simplify things for newer players but it realy shouldn't be at the expense of the grizzled vet. Replacing the need to tweak a few sliders at the right time with calling the right shouts at the right time shouldn't be all it takes to get the win. The whole thing is a big mix of being over simplistic but also very confusing.

What i would like to see is an overlay showing player movement on offense and another showing zones of responsibility/movement on defense. This would be far more realistic.

Players mental stats

I just feel they play too much of a role now along with motivation. If a player has low determination or bravery his whole career is pretty much shot. It's particualrily hard in the lower leagues where these players are hard to find. I don't think its fair that players in lower leagues have to be weakwilled just because they didn't have the talent to play in the big leagues.

Nerfed Key stats for youths

I was looking through my team recently and every young central defender had a strength below six. Not the first time I have seen it. Even if these guys spend the next few years in the FM weightroom its not going to rise above 12. Same thing with bravery. Every young striker on my team had below a five and it seemed most in the player search did too. Unfortunatly I can't sit them down to watch 300 spartans over and over :confused: Tutoring seems to have little effect either.

Player ratings too low/Goalscorers overated.

It's a very rare thing for the man of the match not to be the guy that put his foot on the end of the cross or the big defender who bundled the ball over the line at a corner. Sure scoring goals is nice but any real football fan knows it was the defensive midfielders 12 tackles and 90% pass completion that realy won the game. I would like to see this better represented in the player ratings. Maybe even bump them up a few points across the board.

Theres a few other things like my assistant manager not filtering coaches properly leading to me having to offer 40 guys contracts just to see who wants to be my new goalkeeping coach. Your opponents striker who hasn't hit the net all season constantly finding the net against my team. Oh and my right winger coming in at the far post scoring goals too frequently. But I didn't want to turn this into a full blown rant

I agree with the ratings part although i do think this part as improved allot last few versions

Im hoping the AI managers have had some sort of tweak which im sure they will have

Tactics

The TC does not dumb down tactics. It adds in-match dynamism. It is far more realistic to tell a team to push up and get the ball forward to combat a tactical problem than it is to tell someone to drop 10% deeper or play with 15% less creativity. The sliders offer too much fine tuned control and far more than a real world manager is able to exert. The TC / Shouts provides a more nuanced experience.

Mental Stats

Vitally important in any sport. Pretty much anyone who fails to justify their talent does it because they are mentally deficient. A really good manager can overcome this through a huge amount of mentoring and coaching. However, it is going to be difficult. Why should this be any easier in FM?

Nerfed Key Stats for Youth

Haven't seen this at all in 11.3. I have almost a 100% regen team now and none of them are missing key stats for their position. Certainly used to be an issue, but isn't really anymore.

Player ratings too low/Goalscorers overated

Agree with this.

I think the tactic changes are brilliant. Like wwfan said it makes no sense for a manager to tell his players 'I want you to play with 20% creative freedom' or 'Play with 2 clicks less width'.

Having said that the 'classic' method of tactics is still an option

Hello from sunny Queensland

Tactics

Didn't you have a large part in the writing of TT&F and other documents? It seemed from reading that, that you may have even had a role in helping to develop the new system. If that is the case your views may be a little biased. Sure it is better and more realistic than the old slider system but i realy don't think it goes far enough. All it realy does is automaticly adjust the old sliders instead of the manager having to do it manauly. Using your same logic you can't tell me that Mourinho says to Xabi Alonso before a match "ok Xabi you are going to play a supporting defensive midfield role" and leave it at that. I still feel theres a lot that can be improved and that i realy don't have enough control or knowledge over player movement and how my team is going to play. If you check out a site like Zonalmarking.net you may get some idea of what i am talking about.

Mental stats (ok this realy should be attributes......doh)

I agree that mental attributes are important but its realy shouldn't play as much of a role as it currently does. Pure tallent and athletisism are just as important IMO.

Nerfed Key Stats for Youth

I could provide a lot of examples of this via screenshots if needed. It wasn't so much with the newgens as with already created players. Try finding a striker under the age of 20 for a dutch jupiler league side with a bravery above 8. Damn near impossible. I think this has a lot to do with researchers leaving the boxes blank in the editor.

Nerfed Key Stats for Youth

I could provide a lot of examples of this via screenshots if needed. It wasn't so much with the newgens as with already created players. Try finding a striker under the age of 20 for a dutch jupiler league side with a bravery above 8. Damn near impossible. I think this has a lot to do with researchers leaving the boxes blank in the editor.

You make the point of the jupiter league, are you saying that there no players with higher bravery etc that are interested in joining you or in the game itself? Cause i 100% agree with WWfan as i am confident i could give you as many examples that there are plenty of players with stats higher than you can the opposite.

Yes i meant only players that were interested in joing my team. It does seem rather odd that of the 20+ strikers I was interested in all had bravery below eight. The majority had a five. Of the all young strikers on my team the highest bravery was a six. This means all an opponent has to do is set hard tackle on them and their game is as good as over. I doesn't seem right that have to be giant pansies just because they don't have the tallent to play for Ajax.

The defenders had a simular problem. I had something like eight young defenders and every one had a five or six for strength. While this isn't as much of an issue as I can train them up to a resonable level and being under 18 they probably havn't finished developing physicaly it's still odd to see a 6"4 200+ pounder with a strength of five.

Player ratings too low/Goalscorers overated.

It's a very rare thing for the man of the match not to be the guy that put his foot on the end of the cross or the big defender who bundled the ball over the line at a corner. Sure scoring goals is nice but any real football fan knows it was the defensive midfielders 12 tackles and 90% pass completion that realy won the game. I would like to see this better represented in the player ratings. Maybe even bump them up a few points across the board.

It would be great to be able to praise your defensive midfielder or central midfielder for his hard work after the match instead of your striker putting the only goal of the match (penalty or whatever). Some players are very loyal and it would be nice to be able to praise them more often for better relationship etc. Totally agree with OP.

Midfielders did get a higher status in FM09 and specially in FM10 but it would be more realistic if they got even more credit for a won match..

I made a few images using tacticalpad and GIMP of what I envision to be a more realistic tactics interface. You can't tell me a manager IRL wouldn't be able to instruct his team to do things like this before the match.

Player positioning and attacking runs:

Passing range and through balls

Closing down

Hello from sunny Queensland

Tactics

Didn't you have a large part in the writing of TT&F and other documents? It seemed from reading that, that you may have even had a role in helping to develop the new system. If that is the case your views may be a little biased. Sure it is better and more realistic than the old slider system but i realy don't think it goes far enough. All it realy does is automaticly adjust the old sliders instead of the manager having to do it manauly. Using your same logic you can't tell me that Mourinho says to Xabi Alonso before a match "ok Xabi you are going to play a supporting defensive midfield role" and leave it at that. I still feel theres a lot that can be improved and that i realy don't have enough control or knowledge over player movement and how my team is going to play. If you check out a site like Zonalmarking.net you may get some idea of what i am talking about.

Sunny in Queensland!!!! Are there any pigs flying overhead?

Firstly, yes, I'm biased. Secondly, yes, the TC needs to become more sophisticated. However, your critique isn't being fair. You don't tell Xabi Alonso to play as a Supporting Defensive Midfielder. The role comes with a set of pre-determined actions, as do other roles in that position. You want the player to screen the defence, then choose Anchor Man. You want a little more creativity in passing while still keeping the screening, then choose Defensive Midfielder Defend. You want the player to step up when the team is in possession, then choose Defensive Midfielder Support. You want the player to dictate play from deep, then choose Deep-Lying Playmaker (Defend if you still want him screening, Support if the focus is on the in-possession play).

You then need to take into consideration the players natural inclination, which might override the role (i.e. if player has a PPM of dribbles down the centre, you might not want him as an Anchor Man, as his will risk losing the ball in dangerous positions). You can then override things again by developing a team with certain attributes that the shouts/adjustments can put into play. If you have a high stamina/great workrate team, then play with a high line and press heavily. If you have a highly technical team, then playing shorter passes into space will bring great reward. Want to take advantage of the physical advantages your team has, then get stuck in and pump ball forward to win tackles and send balls down the pitch to win in the air or chase.

You also need to think about which formation fits different styles. If you want to get the ball forward as quickly as possible, a defensive, lone striker formation might not help. You should probably play an aggressive mentality with high wingers and two forwards. Likewise, if you want to keep the ball and counter from deep, then keep players back and only have one or two stay forward.

I'd be the first to agree that this type of thinking is not explicit in the game instructions/documentation/feedback and that it should become so. I'll also happily agree that the fluidity in player positioning provided in zonalmarking.net is not replicated in the formation screen. However, that doesn't mean it isn't replicated in the average position screen. The right combo of roles and formations can easily result in the fluid positions in the zonalmarking diagrams. The two things I won't concede are that the system is more dumbed down than the sliders and that sliders are more fun or realistic. The TC focuses on real world football terminology and in-match dynamism. It is concepts not tools. The sliders are not realistic at all and nobody can argue that the terminology around them wasn't hugely unrealistic (how many clicks should I ...!!!!!). All one has to do is compare the threads in the Tactics Forum now to what they were two years ago to appreciate how far we've progressed.

I made a few images using tacticalpad and GIMP of what I envision to be a more realistic tactics interface. You can't tell me a manager IRL wouldn't be able to instruct his team to do things like this before the match.

Something like that would be great, but as a visualiser, not a determinator. Having such exact moves available in the tactical interface will result in users being able to trick the AI by making players do unrealistic runs. Examples include the crazy arrowed FM09 tactics and the chaos of the ChampMan set piece creator. The TC already enables much of the stuff you illustrate, but doesn't visualise it well.

Having such exact moves available in the tactical interface will result in users being able to trick the AI by making players do unrealistic runs.

Yeah, and? I never understood what's your problem with users creating super tactics by fooling the AI :/ You (or some other mod) said once you introduced new tactics system in order to prevent people making plug and play tactics that exploit the AI flaws. Why does it bother you that much, what's in it for you? Those who want to exploit the engine will cheat their way to the win, those who don't will refrain from abusing the obvious exploits. In other words, everyone would enjoy the game in their own way, without the frustration of vague(ish) TC settings.

There should be no ways of exploiting the ME full stop. I cannot believe anyone would want that in the game.

There should be no ways of exploiting the ME full stop. I cannot believe anyone would want that in the game.

I wouldn't WANT it in the game, but I could live with it if the developers focused their efforts on fixing some other issues in the game. The tactical aspect of the game has always been OK, while things like AI signing policy has been broken since the early days. That's just an example.

the tactical aspect has not always been ok, that is why they have changed the system and they have made improvements on the AI constantly, ignoring one side of the game to concentrate on another would not improve the game.

Anyway, there is only a small team work on the tactical side of things, and nothing else, so stopping them improving this would not open more time to work on the AI side of things, it would just leave them nothing to do.

As such, my 4-2-2-2 tactic with two defensive midfielders and two wingers as well as the 4-1-2-3 narrow tactics (like Mr.Hough's) are exploiting holes in the ME. Those are holes that could be filled if the AI knew how to do so. Both tactics are aggressive, pushing up, high closing down but score the most goals on counter-attacks. What happens is that the defending 7 (4123) and 6 (424) players drops deep to win the ball from the opponent, but the wingers/strikers (3 and 4 respectively) remain up front, leaving a large gap in the middle. This wouldn't be a problem if the 3-4 defenders of the team in possession actually tried to intercept the pass or clearance that's always coming when they lose possession in the final third, but unless they are set to having high attacking mentality and high closing down they never do! And to be clear here - the AI tactics have defending, low closing down settings on their defenders (I can tell!), which is vastly inferior when the team is trying to score goals.

I completely disagree with the idea that attacking mentality equals higher aggression and willingness to intercept the one having the ball, as well as trying to tackle. I would say it is the opposite - the more attacking your mentality, the less you're interested in winning the ball while being more interested in movement off the ball and being available for a pass or through ball. The more defensive a player's mentality, the more interested he is in defending... which means he would look to not only deny space to the opposing team but also intercepting and tackling and the less interested he would be in off the ball movement.

In other words - the exact opposite of how the tactical system works now...

eh???

How can you play attacking football without the ball? Of course being more attacking means you will press the ball more, work very hard to get it back quickly and push your opponents to make mistakes. Look at Barca, the best attacking team in the world, they never give any team an ounce of time on the ball, its what makes them so hard to beat, because they are so aggressive and attacking all the time. You could not say Barca play a defensive type of football which is what you seem to be suggesting.

eh???

How can you play attacking football without the ball? Of course being more attacking means you will press the ball more, work very hard to get it back quickly and push your opponents to make mistakes. Look at Barca, the best attacking team in the world, they never give any team an ounce of time on the ball, its what makes them so hard to beat, because they are so aggressive and attacking all the time. You could not say Barca play a defensive type of football which is what you seem to be suggesting.

That is closing down, not attacking mentality (in FM terms). I am merely suggesting that defensive mentalities are worse than attacking mentalities in FM because the former does the opposite of what a defensive-minded player would do; taking the ball away from the opponent and making sure that they don't get the chance to score goals.

In other words - I want the Closing Down and Tackling sliders to be the only ones affecting closing down and tackling. Mentality should affect off the ball movement and willingness to shoot/through balls. Playing style has nothing do with any of this - that's passing style, width and tempo.

That is closing down, not attacking mentality (in FM terms). I am merely suggesting that defensive mentalities are worse than attacking mentalities in FM because the former does the opposite of what a defensive-minded player would do; taking the ball away from the opponent and making sure that they don't get the chance to score goals.

Mentality affects everything! Including the risk of leaving your position to intercept a ball or closing down or tackling a player.

That is closing down, not attacking mentality (in FM terms). I am merely suggesting that defensive mentalities are worse than attacking mentalities in FM because the former does the opposite of what a defensive-minded player would do; taking the ball away from the opponent and making sure that they don't get the chance to score goals.

In other words - I want the Closing Down and Tackling sliders to be the only ones affecting closing down and tackling. Mentality should affect off the ball movement and willingness to shoot/through balls. Playing style has nothing do with any of this - that's passing style, width and tempo.

Nonsense, its all part of a tactic, attacking teams want the ball back quickly, otherwise they cannot attack, its pointless people running into spaces when their team doesnt have the ball. Any attacking team will close you down quickly and get the ball off you as quick as possible. so they can release players forward, defensive teams will sit back, invite the opposition to have the ball as long as its not in a dangerous position and basically contain. A defensive team will hold position rather than commit players into tackles they might not win. An attacking team will take more risks in this situation because they have too.

Again look at Barca, you could not say for one second they play defensive football, they attacking everything, they are always winning the ball as high up the pitch as possible.

Nonsense, its all part of a tactic, attacking teams want the ball back quickly, otherwise they cannot attack, its pointless people running into spaces when their team doesnt have the ball. Any attacking team will close you down quickly and get the ball off you as quick as possible. so they can release players forward, defensive teams will sit back, invite the opposition to have the ball as long as its not in a dangerous position and basically contain. A defensive team will hold position rather than commit players into tackles they might not win. An attacking team will take more risks in this situation because they have too.

Again look at Barca, you could not say for one second they play defensive football, they attacking everything, they are always winning the ball as high up the pitch as possible.

This makes Defensive mentality rubbish in the game.

This makes Defensive mentality rubbish in the game.

No it doesnt, there is more than one way to defend...

The problem you have with Mental stats I dont agree with. Determination is a bit over important, but bravery is not that big a deal. I have some top class players with 10 or less Bravery. One of them is a full back newgen.

As for Nerfed key stats I dont think its that bad, I agree there are more newgens with nerfed key attributes than not, but thats some of the fun of the game. Some of those are better served retraining to new positions. I have a newgen Striker (PA 198) who was created with finishing 8 Composure 7 Pace 8 Accel 7, the rest of his stats are beastly. Hes huge, strong, mentally top class, technically gifted, so this season now hes matured for a few years hes being retrained as an AMC where his lack of finishing and pace wont be such a problem. Some will just always be hampered by a bad stat or two.

The player ratings I agree with 100%, I have a player who is consistent, he always tackles well, plays simple passes to creative players, when he plays we rarely lose (once in 3 seasons) yet he barely ever rates more than 7.1 if hes lucky cause he never scores or assists. Conversely I have a flying full back who sucks at defending but picks up plenty of assists and he consistently rates 7.5 or more... I know which one gets picked first each game.

The tactics I simply cant agree, the old system while far more detailed and intricate, was unrealistic and silly. If it had never been that way (with the slider lotto) people wouldnt be asking for it to be implemented cause its so totally alien to anything resembling reality. The current system is far from perfect but its a step in the right direction.

This makes Defensive mentality rubbish in the game.

I beg to differ, some of my greatest victories have come from playing slow defensive football against superior teams. I beat R.Madrid in last years CL final with a greatly inferior team by defending (won 3-1)

The problem you have with Mental stats I dont agree with. Determination is a bit over important, but bravery is not that big a deal. I have some top class players with 10 or less Bravery. One of them is a full back newgen.

It's not realy the bravery with fullbacks that matters. It's the strikers.

FM isn't fun anymore.

Tactics are impossible to do consistently = boring.

The game is repetitive and too in depth and not based enough on the fun side, don't ask me what to do I'm not a game-maker, the game should be detailed, but fun as well, I take the game very seriously every time I load it, I don't laugh wit happiness in the way I did FM08, simple.

FM isn't fun anymore.

Tactics are impossible to do consistently = boring.

The game is repetitive and too in depth and not based enough on the fun side, don't ask me what to do I'm not a game-maker, the game should be detailed, but fun as well, I take the game very seriously every time I load it, I don't laugh wit happiness in the way I did FM08, simple.

Originaly I was trying to say somthing in the same vein. I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was that makes the game less fun than it used to be and it just came out as a big rant. I played FM07 to death. There was just somthing about that game that was great. Maybe it was too easy, My squad and reserve teams were constantly filled with the best regens/newgens which i could flog off for more than double their value. FM11 I find to be very frustrating, wether its your strikers constantly hitting the ball at the keeper and post or the massive slumps in form. Perhaps it's not the user exploiting the match engine anymore but the AI.

The game is less fun because it's not that oriented on tactics and transfers anymore, but press conferences, team talks, individual convos etc. There are countless examples on the forums where people win-win-win just because they get the team talk/press conference right, not tactics.

Show me one example where someone is winning only because of team talks, and press conferences and nothing to do with tactics.

Before the thread decends into childish name calling and inevitable closure I would like to thank wwfan for putting in the effort try and explain what is going on with the tactics.

It seems the tactical side will have better documentation and maybe better visual explanations in FM12 so at least thats somthing to look forward too.

im not saying i love anything in that post, i asked for one example out of the apparent countless examples available where someone is winning ONLY because of team talks and press conferences and nothing at all to do with tactics. simple really

teams talks are just a variable, if you change nothing else about your approach and give a poor/good talk it can have an influence whether you win lose or draw, but its influence certainly isnt as dramatic as some people make out

Would really like to see more in depth work n the TC thought

teams talks are just a variable, if you change nothing else about your approach and give a poor/good talk it can have an influence whether you win lose or draw, but its influencecertainly isnt as dramatic as some people make out

Would really like to see more in depth work n the TC thought

exactly correct, on both points, there is definately room for improving the TC.

Show me one example where someone is winning only because of team talks, and press conferences and nothing to do with tactics.

Here is an example. I started a new save a few weeks ago with my Benfica team and firstly I try to leave Press Conferences and Team Talks with my Ass. Manager, as I normally do. First two matches I lost them against weaker sides, then I decided that my ass manager was doing very poor job and using the same tactics and not using the shouts, I made the Press Conference and Team Talks and won the next three matches all also weaker sides.

Why do threads like these have to turn into slagging matches? Now the points made in the original thread have been superseeded by this tripe. (Since deleted).

For what it's worth, I agree player ratings could probably do with rebalancing, but it's not an easy task to undertake. The tactical stuff, as wwfan has said, is very difficult to add without too many exploits becoming available. I'd be for it if they were 'tactical' (ie clever management) but sadly it's be logical exploits where the AI couldn't handle it. That's the main reason the 'arrows' were removed previously.

Also I was under the impression that the whole idea of tactics in real life is to exploit the weaker points of opposing team. Now the only difference is that in FM, people use tactics to exploit the match engine or the AI opposing team. Then I conclude that tactics work as they should, because players use tactics to beat their opposition. What iI think was at fault here was simply the ability of Match Engine, but mainly the AI to counter those tactics. I feel, in my humble opinion, that new tactics system is far too overcomplicated, and even the new Tactic creator doesn't help a lot, thus reason I always use classic tactics, sure I don't have shouts, but don't really miss it.

In past FMs for example I know about the existence of corner exploits, but never ever had the interest in using them, because that is choice of mine. In my opinion the only thing that needed improvement was the AI countering my tactics. To be fair all those tactics that use the exploits of ME, I ever had bad experiences and my personal worst defeats was using thos created fullproof tactics. About that?

To be fair the system was perfect and there wasn't any complaints until the day, this ego fighting of people exploiting the ME was cheating or not. To be fair if someone wants to use an exploit to win, win, win, that that is good for them and no one should have the right to say is cheating, because that is choice of that person not of the others. Ironically in FM11 if I want to exploit the ME I just do the right way Press Conferences and Team Talks, since in my current save since I do them, a win, win, win, reason why I hate them even more.

The problem is that it's often not exploiting the weaker points of the opposing team, but exploiting the weaker points of the match engine.

The former should be possible without the latter.

For what it's worth, I agree player ratings could probably do with rebalancing, but it's not an easy task to undertake. The tactical stuff, as wwfan has said, is very difficult to add without too many exploits becoming available. I'd be for it if they were 'tactical' (ie clever management) but sadly it's be logical exploits where the AI couldn't handle it. That's the main reason the 'arrows' were removed previously.

Idealy the AI should be able to recognise the user is employing a gimmicky tactic and find a way around it instead of having to dumb down the tactics to suit them. I can appreciate it's not an easy thing to do though.

And I agree with you Ackter, that tactics should be about exploiting the weaker points of opposing team. What does that really tell us?

For me shows that tactics before work as it should and the only improvement that needs was the AI to be smarter to counter those exploits. Not overcomplicated the tactics to the point you have to use a tactics creator, just to create a tactic. In the past we didn't need them. Now it seems to be in every criticism posts about the game.

To be honest I'm suprise that those people that all about realism for the game, don't complain about the TC, because I real life managers don't have a Tactics creator..

And I agree with you Ackter, that tactics should be about exploiting the weaker points of opposing team. What does that really tell us?

For me shows that tactics before work as it should and the only improvement that needs was the AI to be smarter to counter those exploits. Not overcomplicated the tactics to the point you have to use a tactics creator, just to create a tactic. In the past we didn't need them and was very little complaints about them. Now it seems to be in every criticism posts about the game.

There were exploits long before the TC, the match engine is much more robust than before. Building a tactic was overcomplicated before the TC, that has actually made tactic building easier

The tactics as they were before allowed us to exploit the match engine as it allowed us to make our players do things that just weren't realistic.

First we need to get the match engine working as realistically as possible, and that means we remove as much of the code weakness as possible. Then we can improve the opposition's AI to exploit weaknesses properly as they'll be on an even ground with us.

Without that even ground, improving the AI will always be a problem.

And I'd rather have an even ground with no code weaknesses than allow the AI to exploit the code as we can.

The tactics as they were before allowed us to exploit the match engine as it allowed us to make our players do things that just weren't realistic.

First we need to get the match engine working as realistically as possible, and that means we remove as much of the code weakness as possible. Then we can improve the opposition's AI to exploit weaknesses properly as they'll be on an even ground with us.

Without that even ground, improving the AI will always be a problem.

And I'd rather have an even ground with no code weaknesses than allow the AI to exploit the code as we can.

Dude, everyone here wants an even ground, but that will not be possible since the human brain is far beyond that we as humans can't use it to the full potential and if an AI gets to that point, I think at that time we are fighting a full scale war against them.

What I'm saying is, match engine should be as realistic as possible, but it should be fun to watch (that goes for the entire game). Because if it isn't fun, then I prefer to watch 7 hour adaptation of Hamlet.

I prefer to holiday through games these days to speed my seasons up

Here is an example. I started a new save a few weeks ago with my Benfica team and firstly I try to leave Press Conferences and Team Talks with my Ass. Manager, as I normally do. First two matches I lost them against weaker sides, then I decided that my ass manager was doing very poor job and using the same tactics and not using the shouts, I made the Press Conference and Team Talks and won the next three matches all also weaker sides.

Thats a big leap to conclude that the team talk was the only reason for your wins. I can give an example of the exact opposite. Last season I was dominating the Dutch league as usual (its not a great league) and then we hit a slump in form, it wasnt the usual complacency I have to deal with (I recognise and handle that regularly) it was something else. A combination of variables beyond my understanding that just conspired against me, suddenly my star MC was getting ratings of 6.7 or lower (unheard of) we were struggling to beat very weak sides, we drew with a terrible side. Nothing changed my Team talks and conferences were identical to those I always give against such sides.

Clearly if you were right I would never lose or draw, but we do. I will concede that perhaps to much focus in the last 3 years has gone into talks and conferences but it isnt as cut and dried as you say, your change in fortune could have been down to any number of things.

Also I was under the impression that the whole idea of tactics in real life is to exploit the weaker points of opposing team. Now the only difference is that in FM, people use tactics to exploit the match engine or the AI opposing team. Then I conclude that tactics work as they should, because players use tactics to beat their opposition.

I think your missing the point though, in reality there is no way to get players to behave and play in the way the old system allowed you to do. There were any number of 'uber' tactics that virtually guaranteed success and domination cause they exploited the match engine. Spotting a weakness with your opponent (say a weak or slow full back, or DMC with low bravery) and exploiting that is totally different to knowing that if you set certain sliders to exact levels and play a particular formation that the match engine does a brain fart and cant cope.

I dont think anyone is suggesting the new tactics system is perfect or even great, but its much better than the old system. Id rather they worked on perfecting this new style than revert to a more familiar but utterly flawed system.

Yeah, and? I never understood what's your problem with users creating super tactics by fooling the AI :/ You (or some other mod) said once you introduced new tactics system in order to prevent people making plug and play tactics that exploit the AI flaws. Why does it bother you that much, what's in it for you? Those who want to exploit the engine will cheat their way to the win, those who don't will refrain from abusing the obvious exploits. In other words, everyone would enjoy the game in their own way, without the frustration of vague(ish) TC settings.

Two reasons:

1: Online play is completely impossible if one user can heavily exploit the ME.

2: To become robust and realistic, the ME needs to have its flaws removed. Arrows resulted in robotic runs. Humans don't make robotic runs. Therefore, to make the ME more realistic, arrows had to go. Likewise, you cannot control humans in 5% degrees. However, you can tell them to play in certain ways. Therefore, the TC is a more realistic set of instructions that follows a more robust logic than the previous system, resulting in an improvement of the ME and its AI.

The tactical stuff, as wwfan has said, is very difficult to add without too many exploits becoming available. I'd be for it if they were 'tactical' (ie clever management) but sadly it's be logical exploits where the AI couldn't handle it. That's the main reason the 'arrows' were removed previously.

As Neil says, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to add precise tactical instruction to tactical instruction without the tactic winning through an exploit, which undermines all the work that goes into the ME. I'd love to have more real-life tactical options (more styles, systems, adjustments and roles, different ways to target players, a more dynamic set-piece system) than we currently do. That needs to be supported by some documentation-in-game feedback that helps users understand why and how tactics work, so they don't press heavily with ultra-low defensive lines or quickly get the ball forward to a lone, isolated FC.

Also I was under the impression that the whole idea of tactics in real life is to exploit the weaker points of opposing team. Now the only difference is that in FM, people use tactics to exploit the match engine or the AI opposing team. Then I conclude that tactics work as they should, because players use tactics to beat their opposition. What iI think was at fault here was simply the ability of Match Engine, but mainly the AI to counter those tactics. I feel, in my humble opinion, that new tactics system is far too overcomplicated, and even the new Tactic creator doesn't help a lot, thus reason I always use classic tactics, sure I don't have shouts, but don't really miss it.

Come on, you can't be serious here. You can't exploit real life's ME. Therefore, you shouldn't be able to exploit FM's ME. It is impossible for the AI to deal with tactics that robotically moved players in and out of positions in real life they'd never be able to occupy. Fixing the AI to deal with 1000s of potential exploits is an impossible task. Instead, you remove the exploits.

For me shows that tactics before work as it should and the only improvement that needs was the AI to be smarter to counter those exploits. Not overcomplicated the tactics to the point you have to use a tactics creator, just to create a tactic. In the past we didn't need them. Now it seems to be in every criticism posts about the game.

From memory, your preferred version is FM07. Classic tactics were just as complicated then as they are now. Are you really making an argument that the TC is more complicated to understand than a set of abstract sliders with 20 notches on them, all of which had to be individually manipulated into complementary positions in order for the team to achieve? Because that's the only difference between now and then, bar the removal of arrows. Do you just like arrows a lot?

To be honest I'm suprise that those people that all about realism for the game, don't complain about the TC, because I real life managers don't have a Tactics creator

No, they have lots of sliders and explain to their players how to play in precise 5% details. They'd never once think of asking a player to sit in front of the defence and anchor it so the full backs can go forward with little risk, or that the team is going to sit deep, retain possession and attack on the counter. They'd tell him to play at a mentality of 5, closing down of 7, creative freedom of 4, whilst letting him know that the team's width was 8, its defensive line was 2 and its passing 3. And that the midfielder in front of you is going to sprint to the right wing as soon as we get the ball, no matter where on the pitch it is.

I dont think anyone is suggesting the new tactics system is perfect or even great, but its much better than the old system. Id rather they worked on perfecting this new style than revert to a more familiar but utterly flawed system.

I agree. A more sophisticated and nuanced TC would be great. Returning to sliders a nightmare.

I really believe SI can't win no matter what they do. Whatever they do with tactics, press conferences, team talks etc is constantly argued against by half the community and supported by the other half.

I'd love to see training progress players on the quality of my coaches rather than having to micro manage it, probably the most pointless waste of time in the game

2: To become robust and realistic, the ME needs to have its flaws removed. Arrows resulted in robotic runs. Humans don't make robotic runs. Therefore, to make the ME more realistic, arrows had to go. Likewise, you cannot control humans in 5% degrees. However, you can tell them to play in certain ways. Therefore, the TC is a more realistic set of instructions that follows a more robust logic than the previous system, resulting in an improvement of the ME and its AI.

Come on, you can't be serious here. You can't exploit real life's ME. Therefore, you shouldn't be able to exploit FM's ME. It is impossible for the AI to deal with tactics that robotically moved players in and out of positions in real life they'd never be able to occupy. Fixing the AI to deal with 1000s of potential exploits is an impossible task. Instead, you remove the exploits.

From memory, your preferred version is FM07. Classic tactics were just as complicated then as they are now. Are you really making an argument that the TC is more complicated to understand than a set of abstract sliders with 20 notches on them, all of which had to be individually manipulated into complementary positions in order for the team to achieve? Because that's the only difference between now and then, bar the removal of arrows. Do you just like arrows a lot?

I agree. A more sophisticated and nuanced TC would be great. Returning to sliders a nightmare.

You say the arrows resulted in robotic runs. But I say it made us to have the ability in straightforward in how we wanted the players to move, just set the way you want players to move. Arrows were quick, less time consuming and straightforward and that is why I like arrows.

You complain about the sliders and to be honest the sliders have become only problematic with FM09 where you needed to micromanage your tactics, screw things up, so bad that SI needed to create a tactics creator wizard to make things easier, but to be fair i'm not a fan of sliders.

What would be my ideal tactics? Arrows with choice the style of play that we have now. If the exploits begin again, then the ME needs further improvements for to be focus on exploiting the opposition weaknesses, instead of exploiting the ME.

The micromanagement can be made much easy if you use link between tactics and the match preparation (this needs to be part of training) to set up three different tactics and use the shouts to switch between those tactics.

Note: I feel I need to explain how the system between tactics and match preparation should work. On the tactics you can have three slots to define those three tactics and then use match preparation (part of training), to define how exactly you want to train those tactics (if it is team blending, attacking, defending and those options like we have on FM11 match preparation), to make even less time consuming for the user to quickly change between those tactics by using the shouts.

You say the arrows resulted in robotic runs. But I say it made us to have the ability in straightforward in how we wanted the players to move, just set the way you want players to move. Arrows were quick, less time consuming and straightforward and that is why I like arrows.

You complain about the sliders and to be honest the sliders have become only problematic with FM09 where you needed to micromanage your tactics, screw things up, so bad that SI needed to create a tactics creator wizard to make things easier, but to be fair i'm not a fan of sliders.

What would be my ideal tactics? Arrows with choice the style of play that we have now. If the exploits begin again, then the ME needs further improvements for to be focus on exploiting the opposition weaknesses, instead of exploiting the ME.

The micromanagement can be made much easy if you use link between tactics and the match preparation (this needs to be part of training) to set up three different tactics and use the shouts to switch between those tactics.

Note: I feel I need to explain how the system between tactics and match preparation should work. On the tactics you can have three slots to define those three tactics and then use match preparation (part of training), to define how exactly you want to train those tactics (if it is team blending, attacking, defending and those options like we have on FM11 match preparation), to make even less time consuming for the user to quickly change between those tactics by using the shouts.

sliders have always been a problem, they are completely abstract. The TC simply makes it easier for people to create and understand tactics

I was looking through my team recently and every young central defender had a strength below six. Not the first time I have seen it. Even if these guys spend the next few years in the FM weightroom its not going to rise above 12.

This isn't true, a player with 6 strength can easily rise to 16+ over a few years. This is one of my minor bugbears with the game as it IMO results in most high ability players becoming unrealistically strong once real players are replaced with regens.

So in a way I agree with you - there should be a more uneven distribution of strength among young players - but in another way I disagree as I feel the overly-powerful strength training unbalances the game the other way.

With the right training you can raise any movable attribute from 6 to 16+

I'm not necessarily sure that is a good thing with certain attributes. IRL a 6 passer is very unlikely to become a 16 passer, for example.

However it is a lot more noticeable with strength, which seems to have a significantly faster rate of development than any other attribute. I don't think it's entirely sensible that regen strikers who are fairly slightly-built at the age of 18-19 have the physical strength of a typical starting db Premiership defender by their mid-twenties.

Perhaps physical attributes should develop differently from the current PA/CA system. Heck you could even have an individual CA/PA for mental and technical attributes.