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Medders
27-07-2011, 21:02
Hi Guys,

Whenever i buy young players 16-18 i make sure that they've been scouted by at least a couple of scouts who have 17+ potential scouting. However, despite having a specific youth training schedule (i think it's called MU-Youth) for each position and when i can
getting them out on loan for first team experience their potential ALWAYS drops and often from 4.5 to 3. I'm a little cautious in playing them in first team and certainly none are regulars but surely that wouldn't be the case until they're at least 20?? What am i
doing wrong as i'm wasting millions and it's just a criminal waste of young talent??

Cheers,

Medders

spizaa
27-07-2011, 21:09
The stars only give you an idea of how good the player is compared to the rest of your squad. If the current player who is first choice for your team is also progressing your youngsters star rating will drop unless he is something special.

CMdan44
27-07-2011, 21:36
it's all relative. Don't look only at star ratings :rolleyes:

Chalky1989
27-07-2011, 22:28
Also, someone's mental stats and hidden personality stats go a long way. You could have a player with the potential to be world class, but if he's got low determination, professionalism, ect, he'll never reach his potential. And star ratings are all relative. 3 stars, if you've got top players in his position already, is still good.

Broham
27-07-2011, 22:29
I tend to base wether a player will succeed more often than not on their weaknesses than anything else. If they have a high injury pronness or if one of their key attributes is too low, like a 3 in anticipation or creativity or something like that, i usually dont even mess with that guy. But players that have no big weaknesses or a weakness that you can overlook depending wich position he plays in, like a winger with poor air skills, id usually give him a good tutor and develop him as much as i can til deciding wether hes any good or not.

Also i usually dont loan out players with low determination, because that usually means they wont learn much wherever they go. unless your training facilities are terribly worse compared to where the players going, then ignore the comment at all.

Coentrao
27-07-2011, 22:50
From my experience..

-They need a good personality to succeed, ambition and professionalism are vital for a player's fast development and this is where tutoring can be really helpful, professional,resolute,spirited players all make good tutors, it's also important to look at the media-handling type of the tutor.

-Determination is often mentioned but it's important for a different reason in my opinion, determined players will give everything on the pitch which leads to good exhibitions and this is also another important point for a player development, they don't need just playing minutes to develop, they need to play well to improve, if you are just throwing a kid on the lineup when he's not good enough and he ends up having bad performances it will hinder his development.

furiousuk
27-07-2011, 22:55
I read some research somewhere (sorry, I won't be able to find where easily) and determination makes NO difference to the development of a player, apart from making that player a better player and better ratings mean more development.

Professionalism & ambition do. So do good coaches. Best of all are good tutors (apart from top quality match experience of course).

Skooma
27-07-2011, 23:03
Youth players very often don't reach their potential IRL too.

Star ratings are fuzzed a little bit, even with the best scouts. FMRTE reports a 3.5 star PA player with an actual PA that's only 6 points away from Steven Gerrard's CA.

Coentrao
27-07-2011, 23:04
I read some research somewhere (sorry, I won't be able to find where easily) and determination makes NO difference to the development of a player, apart from making that player a better player and better ratings mean more development.

Professionalism & ambition do. So do good coaches. Best of all are good tutors (apart from top quality match experience of course).

I've read it as well, it's a really good guide from The Dugout.

furiousuk
27-07-2011, 23:09
I've read it as well, it's a really good guide from The Dugout.

Thanks, I'll have to stick it in my favourites. Found it during the LOOONG month these forums were down!!

Chalky1989
27-07-2011, 23:28
I read some research somewhere (sorry, I won't be able to find where easily) and determination makes NO difference to the development of a player, apart from making that player a better player and better ratings mean more development.

Professionalism & ambition do. So do good coaches. Best of all are good tutors (apart from top quality match experience of course).

Determination helps improve a players progress rate. He'll reach his potential quicker. And it'll mean that a player who has a low CA but high PA has a better chance of reaching it. Whereas a player with low CA, high PA, and rubbish determination won't progress fast enough to reach his PA before he begins to decline. Professionalism and Ambition are vital as well though.

pigfacemonkeyman
28-07-2011, 00:50
Determination helps improve a players progress rate. He'll reach his potential quicker. And it'll mean that a player who has a low CA but high PA has a better chance of reaching it. Whereas a player with low CA, high PA, and rubbish determination won't progress fast enough to reach his PA before he begins to decline. Professionalism and Ambition are vital as well though.

I believe furiousuk is mostly on the money.

Wiitastic
28-07-2011, 00:55
the only youuth I buy in the game are the 1's with amazing attributes. 2 things I look at when buying youth are their attributes and the CA/PA. If they have amazing attributes already they are in my starting 11 in my first team

Eles Gergo
28-07-2011, 07:49
If I buy a good youth player say 16 - 18 years old

16 years old ---> 1 year at under 18th team, 1 year at reserves (if his not progressing well enough, or he gets a loan)

16 years old ---> first team with option to play in the youth side if he's already on 3 stars CA

16 years old ---> high potential, slow progression ---> i keep him under my sight, scarcely giving him opportunity, monitoring his progression at youth and reserves level. If he's not progressing and playing as I like then sell him, or let him go.



18 years old ---> high potential, slow progression ---> reserves team until he gets his head together (I'm usually patient until the age of 21)

18 years old ---> good ratings good CA 3 stars at least ---> straight to the first team acting as cover for his position, bring him on as many times I can around 50 - 60 minutes (this only apply's when I have say 4 strikers in a 2 striker tactic, if I have 5 strikers then his chances are more limited, but after stats I always look at how he performs in games and he can move up quickly in the pecking order despite his say average stats.)

!!!Spoiler!!!

Remember, not all youngsters fulfil their potential, Freddy Adu, Bojan Krikic, Ricardo Quaresma etc

Some still can make it at other clubs, or simply have bad seasons (Pato at AC Milan), some you can turn around (Benzema at Real Madrid) some you cant (Obertan or Bebe at Man utd)

furiousuk
28-07-2011, 08:52
With help from Coentrao I found the article, it surprised me but is well written by a reputable author. http://www.thedugout.net/content/articles/item,1,2,1,Player_Development_and_Tutoring_Guide.h tml Note that this is a slightly simulated result in that the tests were run under 'manager holiday' conditions.

This is a fantastic article - http://www.thedugout.net/content/articles/item,1,2,1,Player_Development_and_Tutoring_Guide.h tml
Determination is viewed as the author as an indicator for how well a youth player will perform on loan - high determination players tend to do well on loan to clubs in a lower league and this boosts their development. The information in this piece is all empirical based on the authors experiences actually 'playing' the game.


My own personal experience is that you can't polish a turd. Some players will never reach the giddy heights, your job with these players is to make a profit on them which is normally fairly easy. If you bought a youth player for 1M, paid him 2K per week for 3 years (thats 312K) then you'll need to sell him for 1.4M or more to make a profit, if you're a top club this is generally easily accomplished.



the only youuth I buy in the game are the 1's with amazing attributes.

This is, obviously, a good philosophy. However, it's good to be surprised and you will be surprised from time to time at the progression of players. An important consideration is filling out your squad - you always need a few good 'squadmen' and these can be reliably developed using your youth system.

RBKalle
28-07-2011, 09:27
Also, don't get fooled/blinded by the Scout Report and by the Star Rating...


Even your best scouts will report about bucketloads of "hot prospects" who'd need like 10 years of training/development to fulfill their potantial, because their current attributes are very low or unbalanced, to the point their top-notch potential becomes unreachable and, frankly, unreasonable.


The thing is: AI can't properly tell the difference between a 70/190 kid with mediocre mental traits and a 110/160 kid with balanced attributes and personality.

Most youngsters your scouts have been raving about (and you have spent good money on) are simply "overrated" by the game and are given insanely high potential while their starting attributes doesn't justify such a thing.


Just think of dozens of youth players with League One skills but with Balotelli's attitude and potential...

Things Could Get Messi
28-07-2011, 10:37
i look at personality before i buy as well as attributes. if a player looks good but has the wrong attitude then i wont buy him regardless.

Coentrao
28-07-2011, 11:29
i look at personality before i buy as well as attributes. if a player looks good but has the wrong attitude then i wont buy him regardless.

Even if you have a good tutor for him?

furiousuk
28-07-2011, 13:44
The thing is: AI can't properly tell the difference between a 70/190 kid with mediocre mental traits and a 110/160 kid with balanced attributes and personality.


This is only because the AI is generally bad at developing talent and most top class players either got lucky to get a run of games or were released by a big club to a smaller club, whereby they got games and progressed - this isn't all bad but does mean that, as seasons progress, top class players other than your own have usually missed out on 1-2 seasons of progression, they'll still be very good but they won't be as outstanding as yours.

Any else noticed that your scouts DO notice the difference?

My scouts still present me with loads of dross but I have a strong determination and professionalism based squad (less so on pressure & ambition though I think) and most players my scouts present me with are determined and professional. To the extent that I miss out on outstanding prospects who aren't (but could be tutored).

Lem
28-07-2011, 15:17
My own personal experience is that you can't polish a turd. Some players will never reach the giddy heights, your job with these players is to make a profit on them which is normally fairly easy. If you bought a youth player for 1M, paid him 2K per week for 3 years (thats 312K) then you'll need to sell him for 1.4M or more to make a profit, if you're a top club this is generally easily accomplished.
I cried with laughter at the 2K per week part. Youth players demand closer to 20K, and usually cost more than 1M if they're any good. So a figure of 10million to make a profit would be more accurate. Does depend though. Most youth players in my first team cost 10-16 million in transfer fees alone. Some good bargains, but mostly breaking even would be your aim.

Lem
28-07-2011, 15:23
The star ratings decreasing in comparison to your own team makes things a bit deceptive. I buy a 4 star potential player - 5 years later he's 2.5 and I have another 4 star potential player. So if the first one was a 'leading star' for any premiership team, then the second one would be what? Player of the generation? But it never says that, and then it starts saying the first one is no longer a leading star. Are you sure it doesn't compare them to all players and not just your own squad? Otherwise the reports are incorrectly written.

Sikker
28-07-2011, 15:26
I cried with laughter at the 2K per week part. Youth players demand closer to 20K, and usually cost more than 1M if they're any good. So a figure of 10million to make a profit would be more accurate. Does depend though. Most youth players in my first team cost 10-16 million in transfer fees alone. Some good bargains, but mostly breaking even would be your aim.

I've never paid that much for a youth player. Spending that amount the player should walk right into to the first team. 4M is the most I've paid. He is now valued at 35M.
I agree that some wage demands from youth players are ridiculous and their demands can't be argued with. But that doesn't happen very often. Actually, I think it has something do with nationality. If you want a youth player from nation as your team they want to be paid a lot. Very often, though, young players are not interested in changing clubs within nation - they never even wants to discuss contract demands. Instead they leave for a foreign adventure and being paid less. That's my experience, anyways...

Sikker
28-07-2011, 15:31
The star ratings decreasing in comparison to your own team makes things a bit deceptive. I buy a 4 star potential player - 5 years later he's 2.5 and I have another 4 star potential player. So if the first one was a 'leading star' for any premiership team, then the second one would be what? Player of the generation? But it never says that, and then it starts saying the first one is no longer a leading star. Are you sure it doesn't compare them to all players and not just your own squad? Otherwise the reports are incorrectly written.

Scouts compare players to you own team as well as the league. When comparing to your team they compare to player reputation. Comparing to league I think they use league reputation. These comparisons combined give a star rating. That's why star ratings can change quite a bit in a few seasons.

pigfacemonkeyman
28-07-2011, 15:53
Scouts compare players to you own team as well as the league. When comparing to your team they compare to player reputation. Comparing to league I think they use league reputation. These comparisons combined give a star rating. That's why star ratings can change quite a bit in a few seasons.

I need convincing of this, do you have official information?

Sikker
28-07-2011, 16:17
If you start a LLM save you'll see how quick star ratings for your own players change in a matter of months. The players you start out with may have 2-3 stars. You find new free players rated at 4 stars. 2 month later you find new free players rated at 4 stars as well. But now your former players are rated at 1-2 stars lower. Why? Your team has become better. Reading my former post, I see I was a bit hasty writing it was player reputation only. I reckon current ability plays a role too.
Comparing to league - what else is there to compare against than league rep?

pigfacemonkeyman
28-07-2011, 16:25
Sikker, thanks for the reply, I wondered because I thought it was to do with players CA within your club.

Sikker
28-07-2011, 16:32
Well, it is with players CA within the club. But it's also to do with league rep (I'm quite sure of that). But right now my brain has stopped functioning (confusing my self and can't finish a thought)... Better leave the forum and play some FM :-)

Lem
29-07-2011, 17:18
I've never paid that much for a youth player. Spending that amount the player should walk right into to the first team. 4M is the most I've paid. He is now valued at 35M.
I wouldn't say they walk into the first team, they do have good potential at those high prices, and a reasonable CA. After 2-3 years they're dead set first teamers, so I wouldn't say they weren't worth it but it doesn't necessarily mean higher values. Obviously lower potential players are cheaper, but less likely to see any first team action. I tend to stick to 16yo I can "approach to sign". But generally I need to bid at least 4-10million for anything else.


I agree that some wage demands from youth players are ridiculous and their demands can't be argued with. But that doesn't happen very often. Actually, I think it has something do with nationality. If you want a youth player from nation as your team they want to be paid a lot. Very often, though, young players are not interested in changing clubs within nation - they never even wants to discuss contract demands. Instead they leave for a foreign adventure and being paid less. That's my experience, anyways...
Most wage demands on my game are screwed. I get around it with high agent fees, but then you have to add those into your profit margins - usually another 2.5 million or so and you end up no better off. I don't think it's nationality either as I scout everywhere and only have 4 English players. I have problems with all nations, and if anything they seem less likely to move countries.

BiggusD
29-07-2011, 18:07
Regarding youngsters demanding 20k a week, that's true yes, but you don't actually give them that, do you?

My Hot Prospects (demanding 15-25k a week) normally get 5k a week, 4/5 year contracts, a 5k appearance bonus and most importantly - a 25k p/w wage after 20 league games. This has worked like a charm so far. Since I rotate so heavily and these youngsters are ranked 2nd or 3rd in their position at the club, 20 league games equals 1,5 seasons minimum unless there's injury problems.

The most I have ever paid for a 17/18 year old is 8m, and he's ranked 2nd in his position now, making good progress. Usually I pay 1-5m gbp for 3,5-4 star prospects.

Ackter
29-07-2011, 18:44
a) choose a feeder club (or clubs) very carefully. You'll be wanting a few levels below you (ideally one every other level) and they'll have to have good facilities for their level.

b) pick who to send - only send players whose mental attributes are good enough to go. Using myself as an example, anyone with a determination under 15 gets tutored before being sent out on loan, preferably by a senior player described as a Model Professional.

c) as soon as they start to look good, move them into the first team and start giving them sub appearances and cup starts

Ackter
29-07-2011, 18:45
I forgot d) If they're your son, play them in every single match regardless.

Lem
29-07-2011, 19:10
Scouts compare players to you own team as well as the league. When comparing to your team they compare to player reputation. Comparing to league I think they use league reputation. These comparisons combined give a star rating. That's why star ratings can change quite a bit in a few seasons.
So even though my players rating has decreased, it's only done so because my team(and possibly the league) has got better? So should I also notice other teams in my league looking pretty poor?
I'm not sure about the reputation thing though, his should be one of the highest around, he's the most experienced international defender I have, whereas the other players are only 17-20 year olds.

Ackter
29-07-2011, 19:12
So even though my players rating has decreased, it's only done so because my team(and possibly the league) has got better? So should I also notice other teams in my league looking pretty poor?
I'm not sure about the reputation thing though, his should be one of the highest around, he's the most experienced international defender I have, whereas the other players are only 17-20 year olds.

They compare with ability, not reputation, but yes it pretty much works like that.

When I look at scout reports I check:

a) which players is he being likened to
b) how good he is in comparison to that player
c) are they recommended as a quality signing?

I occasionally sign good or useful players, but I will do everything I can for a player with "quality" or above.

I never look at the actual star rating

Lem
29-07-2011, 19:20
Regarding youngsters demanding 20k a week, that's true yes, but you don't actually give them that, do you?

My Hot Prospects (demanding 15-25k a week) normally get 5k a week, 4/5 year contracts, a 5k appearance bonus and most importantly - a 25k p/w wage after 20 league games. This has worked like a charm so far. Since I rotate so heavily and these youngsters are ranked 2nd or 3rd in their position at the club, 20 league games equals 1,5 seasons minimum unless there's injury problems.
If I want them I don't usually get much choice, the only way around is to offer huge agent fees. Appearance fees are usually pretty high anyway and many demand the 20 league game wage increase clause too.
Not to mention I don't tend to overload with young players and rather focus on developing a smaller number so they get more games and experience, I figured they'd develop better that way.

Lem
29-07-2011, 19:27
They compare with ability, not reputation, but yes it pretty much works like that.

When I look at scout reports I check:

a) which players is he being likened to
b) how good he is in comparison to that player
c) are they recommended as a quality signing?

I occasionally sign good or useful players, but I will do everything I can for a player with "quality" or above.

I never look at the actual star rating
Aiming to be a top club in a top league, I wouldn't sign anyone below "leading star" - obviously I don't expect these players to all develop to that level though. It's just a bit strange that the idea of a potential "leading star" who has now fully developed, is now far behind another potential "leading star".... although they're both still listed that way. Maybe the star ratings should be removed?

Ackter
29-07-2011, 19:30
Sometimes "leading star" isn't good enough for me

Leading Star + good signing = will only sign if I can't get someone better.

I always try to get leading star + quality / key signing.

160+ can be considered a leading star in a top league (I don't know the actual PA figures for the scout reports though, I'm just using this as an example) so if you have a team full of 170 PA players and a 165 PA player turns up he'll probably show as a leading star but only a good signing.

Sikker
29-07-2011, 21:36
So even though my players rating has decreased, it's only done so because my team(and possibly the league) has got better? So should I also notice other teams in my league looking pretty poor?
I'm not sure about the reputation thing though, his should be one of the highest around, he's the most experienced international defender I have, whereas the other players are only 17-20 year olds.


They compare with ability, not reputation, but yes it pretty much works like that.

Well, if league reputation isn't used then how are scouts measuring that a player "would be a good player for most division x sides"?. I'm quite sure the scouts are not comparing the player to each and every player in that division...

@Lem: I am quite sure the reason your defender has decreased in star rating is either:
a) you have now more defenders at his level (or better)
b) the league rep has increased
c) you have promoted and so your players are compared to another league rep.

But off course I could be wrong about this comparing to reputation thing...

BiggusD
29-07-2011, 21:58
The rule I follow when signing players is that they need to have 0.5 star higher PA, if possible. Regarding youngsters, I avoid players with light blue CA stars, as I am playing in Spain so they need to be at least 1,5 stars CA the season they turn 19 (decent to good BBVA players) because otherwise they need to have extremely good attribute point distribution to earn a place in the meagre 22 man squad.

That I also need to like the attributes - what the player contributes with on the pitch - goes without saying. Just look at a player like Adrian Colunga, he is a "good player for most BBVA sides" - a striker who has 15 in all the most important striker attributes: Pace, acceleration, off the ball, technique, composure, dribbling, finishing (iirc). Certainly, he will contribute with the most important thing in football; goals, for many sides. Even those which would rate him as "a last resort" could have a use for skills like that. Now, look at Agustin Torassa. He -also- has 15 in all the most important striker attributes. Yet, he is at best a "decent player for most BBVA sides" and having had them both I know that while Colunga certainly made an impact at the top level, Torassa did ok but nothing more.