Young players refusing to be tutored. Needs fixing.

Just tried to set my 17 year old right-back up to be tutored by my much experienced, 34 year old Swedish national hero full-back and he refused. My question is why are young kids doing this? Surely what you say goes until they reach a certain age? I wouldn't mind if it was a one off but its happened two or three times with me now.

Is it just a case of him seeing my experience (semi-pro) and choosing to ignore or is it rooted into the game as a bug? Somehow I couldn't really see Beckham refusing to train with Cantona when he was 17. SAF would of tore him a new one.

You don't say no to your boss. If he asks you to shadow someone for a week and you think it's a waste of time, you shadow him and moan to your mates at the end of the day.

Too many youngsters refuse to be tutored. this needs to be toned down.

Its worse than that actually. Some of them refuse one of two answers but are fine with the others. Its weird as hell, it almost seems random.

I just said to one of em "As a senior member tutor this guy"... kid said no way. I loaded and asked the second option "Pls just tutor this fellow coz youre good", and the kid said "hey hes awesome id love to be tutored"

this is bad

Its worse than that actually. Some of them refuse one of two answers but are fine with the others. Its weird as hell, it almost seems random.

I just said to one of em "As a senior member tutor this guy"... kid said no way. I loaded and asked the second option "Pls just tutor this fellow coz youre good", and the kid said "hey hes awesome id love to be tutored"

this is bad

Don't be misled, it may or may not be which option you choose, but reloading and getting the results you did doesn't prove it. Random factors abound in this game, there is every chance if you reload several more times you will get different results still.

Don't be misled, it may or may not be which option you choose, but reloading and getting the results you did doesn't prove it. Random factors abound in this game, there is every chance if you reload several more times you will get different results still.

The point he is making is that this shouldn't be random. If I'm the boss and I tell him to do something, he should do it. If he refuses, I should be able to punish him for it.

The point he is making is that this shouldn't be random. If I'm the boss and I tell him to do something, he should do it. If he refuses, I should be able to punish him for it.

You cannot punish a player for not wanting to be tutored. If you tired to fine him the PFA would be all over you in a second.

The point he is making is that this shouldn't be random. If I'm the boss and I tell him to do something, he should do it. If he refuses, I should be able to punish him for it.

You can punish him by letting him rot in the reserves until his contract expires, and release him. Or just sell him outright.

If he doesn't see the benefit of tutoring, then he's not good enough for your team.

The point he is making is that this shouldn't be random. If I'm the boss and I tell him to do something, he should do it. If he refuses, I should be able to punish him for it.

Unless it is stated in his contract that he must go on loan, whenever and wherever you, as his Boss, see fit, he has the right to say no.

The fact that so many say no is what's wrong, and it needs to be fixed.

You cannot punish a player for not wanting to be tutored. If you tired to fine him the PFA would be all over you in a second.

Lucky it would never happen then. No young player making his way in the game is going to tell his manager "no, I refuse to learn from this seasoned pro". If the player is arrogant and stubborn it should be reflected in the results of tutoring, not in whether he accepts it or not.

Realistically, the model should be just a conversation with a senior player. Not inviting the young player into the room as well. It should just be "senior pro, I want you to approach young prospect and work with him". Then the attitude and professionalism of the younger pro dictates how much he responds and takes out of this.

Lucky it would never happen then. No young player making his way in the game is going to tell his manager "no, I refuse to learn from this seasoned pro". If the player is arrogant and stubborn it should be reflected in the results of tutoring, not in whether he accepts it or not.

Realistically, the model should be just a conversation with a senior player. Not inviting the young player into the room as well. It should just be "senior pro, I want you to approach young prospect and work with him". Then the attitude and professionalism of the younger pro dictates how much he responds and takes out of this.

since there is no way of proving or disproving that statement its a pointless debate, it is more than possible that players have refused tutoring before, but we would never read about it in the papers as it would be a private internal chat between a player and manager, not likely to make the news.

You cannot punish a player for not wanting to be tutored. If you tired to fine him the PFA would be all over you in a second.

I never said I fine him. If your boss told you to do something and you refused, you would receive a verbal warning. If you did the same thing again, you would receive a written warning. A 3rd time, goodbye to that job. This should be the case for tutoring players. At the moment, if a player says no there's nothing you can do.

What are the chances of a 17yr old who has never played 1 competitive game, refusing to be tutored by Steven Gerrard, the Captain of the club? This just would not happen.

That would never happen, I agree Menion.

sortitoutsi . com

I never said I fine him. If your boss told you to do something and you refused, you would receive a verbal warning. If you did the same thing again, you would receive a written warning. A 3rd time, goodbye to that job. This should be the case for tutoring players. At the moment, if a player says no there's nothing you can do.

What are the chances of a 17yr old who has never played 1 competitive game, refusing to be tutored by Steven Gerrard, the Captain of the club? This just would not happen.

Agreed. 10 chars

since there is no way of proving or disproving that statement its a pointless debate, it is more than possible that players have refused tutoring before, but we would never read about it in the papers as it would be a private internal chat between a player and manager, not likely to make the news.

How much of a future do you think a young player would have if he told his manager "no offence, but I don't think that will help me" when he's 18 years old? Maybe if he said "I'd prefer to learn things my own way, I have confidence in my own abilities" but that is not at all how the game portrays it.

It staggers me that anyone could even try to justify the way it is in the game.

so your problem is the wording and not the player turning down the chance to be tutored?

I never said I fine him. If your boss told you to do something and you refused, you would receive a verbal warning. If you did the same thing again, you would receive a written warning. A 3rd time, goodbye to that job. This should be the case for tutoring players. At the moment, if a player says no there's nothing you can do.

What are the chances of a 17yr old who has never played 1 competitive game, refusing to be tutored by Steven Gerrard, the Captain of the club? This just would not happen.

Sounds like your boss is pretty strict, I say no to mine all the time!

I never said I fine him. If your boss told you to do something and you refused, you would receive a verbal warning. If you did the same thing again, you would receive a written warning. A 3rd time, goodbye to that job. This should be the case for tutoring players. At the moment, if a player says no there's nothing you can do.

What are the chances of a 17yr old who has never played 1 competitive game, refusing to be tutored by Steven Gerrard, the Captain of the club? This just would not happen.

Nonsense i have refused to do things my boss has told me to at work and i havent been fired or had any warnings, if you back up your point logically then there is no reason for you to get sacked, just because someone is your boss does not mean they are always 100% correct.

My problem is that I like to play my youngsters a lot. I guess because of this their reputations increase rapidly and they almost always reject loans.

An 18 yr old, who has played half a dozen times for me, rejecting a loan is as annoying to me as one rejecting a tutor.

In my experience, I have seen a couple youngsters turn down the chance to be tutored by some of the best players in the world. They were usually the ones with attitude problems and were stubborn; they were the ones that usually got sold for cheap or released.

Aaron Spear is still only 18. Bit of a push to use him as an example. Pennant is also playing in the Premiership.

I'm still only semi-pro reputation so I can't test this fully. Can someone confirm this is happening to managers that have world class rep? Couldn't envisage someone like Walcott or Lansbury ignoring Wenger's request to be tutored.

Nonsense i have refused to do things my boss has told me to at work and i havent been fired or had any warnings, if you back up your point logically then there is no reason for you to get sacked, just because someone is your boss does not mean they are always 100% correct.

Quite naturally if you come up with a better solution or have a good reason not to, your boss (if they are good at their job) will listen. Telling a youngster that he is in the model of a similar player that will be considered a legend to the club when they retire and that they could learn something, be it on or off the pitch, the youngster would not have a good enough reply for their manager to say ok.

Some players do refuse if either the tutor isn't of high enough status or their personalities are markedly different.

If your boss told you to follow a guy who you don't get on with at all because of a massive personality clash, would you say "Great!", or would you say "I'm not so keen on that". You can't blame them for not getting along, and you can't punish them for saying they don't fancy working with someone they hate for three months. Surely the smart manager will think - 'hmm, these players don't like each other, but I must force them to work together'?

Quite naturally if you come up with a better solution or have a good reason not to, your boss (if they are good at their job) will listen. Telling a youngster that he is in the model of a similar player that will be considered a legend to the club when they retire and that they could learn something, be it on or off the pitch, the youngster would not have a good enough reply for their manager to say ok.

What if the two players didnt get along, to the point they hated each other, much like Gallas and Nasri? Would you still expect the manager to sack them?

Some players do refuse if either the tutor isn't of high enough status or their personalities are markedly different.

If your boss told you to follow a guy who you don't get on with at all because of a massive personality clash, would you say "Great!", or would you say "I'm not so keen on that". You can't blame them for not getting along, and you can't punish them for saying they don't fancy working with someone they hate for three months. Surely the smart manager will think - 'hmm, these players don't like each other, but I must force them to work together'?

So if a youngster is having attitude problems and you won't a senior player to tutor him for 3 months to sort it out, why would you change your mind when the youngster said no?

What if the two players didnt get along, to the point they hated each other, much like Gallas and Nasri? Would you still expect the manager to sack them?

Why would you have Gallas tutor Nasri?

So if a youngster is having attitude problems and you won't a senior player to tutor him for 3 months to sort it out, why would you change your mind when the youngster said no?

The player isn't necessarily having attitude problems, he just doesn't happen to like the player you want to tutor him. That could be the fault of the senior player, the younger player, neither or both. Sometimes people just don't like each other.

The player isn't necessarily having attitude problems, he just doesn't happen to like the player you want to tutor him. That could be the fault of the senior player, the younger player, neither or both. Sometimes people just don't like each other.

I don't like a lot of people, doesn't mean I wouldn't work with them. It's called professionalism (which is the reason why you want to tutor some youngsters).

Why would you have Gallas tutor Nasri?

completely missed the point, it was only to show how two team mates can absolutely hate each other and still play together.

I'd like to know your answer tho, what if both players hated each other, what would be gained by making them work together?

completely missed the point, it was only to show how two team mates can absolutely hate each other and still play together.

I'd like to know your answer tho, what if both players hated each other, what would be gained by making them work together?

I didn't miss the point at all. As usual, people use extremes to backup their opinions. A CB that has mental issues would not be used to tutor a young AMC.

You can only go with what you are told ingame.

I have tried to have a key player who was 30, tutor a youngster. Their personalites were very ambitious and ambitious. Same position. Youngster had not played a single game. Neither had the other as a disliked player. The youngster said no. How are you to judge that?

Some players do refuse if either the tutor isn't of high enough status or their personalities are markedly different.

If your boss told you to follow a guy who you don't get on with at all because of a massive personality clash, would you say "Great!", or would you say "I'm not so keen on that". You can't blame them for not getting along, and you can't punish them for saying they don't fancy working with someone they hate for three months. Surely the smart manager will think - 'hmm, these players don't like each other, but I must force them to work together'?

In the example I outlined in my opening post, the 34 year-old Swedish player had been at my club for about 3 days when I asked him to tutor a youngster. So that pretty much blows your post out of the water.

You have to realise that some players in football do have larger and larger attitudes now, there's a number of 'big named' youngsters who thought the knew it all that have since fallen by the wayside. For every Rooney or Messi there's a Pennant or Aaron Spear who believed their hype a bit too much. Some players won't see the benefit of being tutored, and yes, as someone said there is a random element in FM. If you do have extreme examples (such as a 17 yr old with no experience rejecting Gerrard) do let us know and we can look into it, but don't write every single 'rejection' off as a fault with the game. Cheers.

Until SI actually 'DOCUMENT' features and explain how stuff works then you will always get a lot of people who are cheesed off with FM. Tutoring is a perfect example of of what I am talking about, looking in the manual explains exactly squat in regards to how the tutoring system is supposed to work.

All I want is an explanation of how the system is supposed to work, what factors are taken into account, what the benefits are, the negatives, how to best make use of the feature etc. It blows my mind that SI add something like this to the game then just let the playerbase guess and spend months trying to analyse how the system works, seriously what's up with that?

I didn't miss the point at all. As usual, people use extremes to backup their opinions. A CB that has mental issues would not be used to tutor a young AMC.

You can only go with what you are told ingame.

I have tried to have a key player who was 30, tutor a youngster. Their personalites were very ambitious and ambitious. Same position. Youngster had not played a single game. Neither had the other as a disliked player. The youngster said no. How are you to judge that?

I suggest you go read the in depth explanation from SI in the manual explaining why what you did makes no sense....... oh wait then again

Knowing HOW something works misses the whole point of the game...

you play the game, supposedly to simulate life as the manager of a professional football team. One assumes that the scenarios everybody complains about happen on a regular basis in football clubs up and down the country and across the world. To simulate the "realism" one has to immerse themselves into the game and use their imagination to fill in the gaps. A player refuses to be tutored... so what? It's likely him who loses out in the long run so why care? Why even bother screaming "bug" or "unrealistic" when it's probably neither - even with the extreme case re: Gerrard.

I don't WANT to know how the thing works, not from SI directly at least. I want to play the game, tinker, click things, move stuff about, buy, sell, play matches, do whatever the game lets me do and learn how it fits into the bigger picture, what "powers" it and what it's linked to through trial and error. I want to ACHIEVE in the game through genuine effort. I want my pleasure to be a result of my playing of the game in my way without need or want to know why a player says no... he just did, deal with it. The professional manager would just accept that the player didn't want to do that... whatever his reasons you should respect them.

Play the game as a game... it really is great fun when you do

Knowing HOW something works misses the whole point of the game...

you play the game, supposedly to simulate life as the manager of a professional football team. One assumes that the scenarios everybody complains about happen on a regular basis in football clubs up and down the country and across the world. To simulate the "realism" one has to immerse themselves into the game and use their imagination to fill in the gaps. A player refuses to be tutored... so what? It's likely him who loses out in the long run so why care? Why even bother screaming "bug" or "unrealistic" when it's probably neither - even with the extreme case re: Gerrard.

I don't WANT to know how the thing works, not from SI directly at least. I want to play the game, tinker, click things, move stuff about, buy, sell, play matches, do whatever the game lets me do and learn how it fits into the bigger picture, what "powers" it and what it's linked to through trial and error. I want to ACHIEVE in the game through genuine effort. I want my pleasure to be a result of my playing of the game in my way without need or want to know why a player says no... he just did, deal with it. The professional manager would just accept that the player didn't want to do that... whatever his reasons you should respect them.

Play the game as a game... it really is great fun when you do

Quite possibly the most complete and utter drivel I have read on the forums to date. You my friend have taken fanboi to a new level. Your explanation for SI not explaining how features work in their game is the most absurd I have ever read. When a game offers you next to no feedback how the hell are you supposed to make decisions, the answer is you don't, which in turn turns decisions into a guessing game, which in turn makes zero sense.

Alex Ferguson - I want you to try and learn from Ryan Giggs

16yr old youth team player - I don't think so boss

Alex Ferguson - And why do you disagree?

16yr old youth team player - I shouldn't have to explain myself to you.

Alex Ferguson - I accept your decision, how about a cup of tea?

Really?

Right, so you buy the latest quest game and then ask the creators how to play it, do you? You ask them where all the puzzle bits are and you ask them which ones you're supposed to get and when, yes? You ask them how to beat the game instead of learning how to... yeah?

Of course you don't! You play the game and you learn how it works as you PLAY IT! FM is no different... (except in your eyes). It's not a guessing game, it's trial and error just like every other game on the planet! Just because there isn't a complete "Idiot's Guide To FM!" released with each version of the game you cry foul when all you need to do, in order to learn how to play the game, is play it! Why a 16yr old striker refuses tutoring should concern you, yes... but it doesn't mean that the game is broken just because he does... it could be something totally obvious that you've missed, or something more subtle that you need to hunt for. EotD there would, most likely, be a reasonable explanation for why player X refuses to be tutored by player Y, whether you like the fact or not...

I've put hundreds of hours into FM over the years and I still haven't learnt how tutoring works. Its just way to random to grasp why sometimes youngsters refuse and other times they can't wait to shine the pro's boots.

From what i've seen youngsters that are temperamental,volatile,confrontational normally end up refusing any tutor a lot of times, it's somewhat ironic since those are the ones that really need tutoring.

Right, so you buy the latest quest game and then ask the creators how to play it, do you? You ask them where all the puzzle bits are and you ask them which ones you're supposed to get and when, yes? You ask them how to beat the game instead of learning how to... yeah?

Of course you don't! You play the game and you learn how it works as you PLAY IT! FM is no different... (except in your eyes). It's not a guessing game, it's trial and error just like every other game on the planet! Just because there isn't a complete "Idiot's Guide To FM!" released with each version of the game you cry foul when all you need to do, in order to learn how to play the game, is play it! Why a 16yr old striker refuses tutoring should concern you, yes... but it doesn't mean that the game is broken just because he does... it could be something totally obvious that you've missed, or something more subtle that you need to hunt for. EotD there would, most likely, be a reasonable explanation for why player X refuses to be tutored by player Y, whether you like the fact or not...

Like I said, when's there zero feedback you are not making decisions you are guessing. Unless of course you have found some hidden feedback that nobody else has found? Trouble with people like you is that you look at the game from a real life perspective and keep trying to equate human elements to a incredibly basic and yet completely unintuitive tutoring system. You sound like one of those clairvoyants who claims they can talk to the dead when in fact they are using some vague terms that you can equate it with almost anything.

If SI expect players to LEARN as you say, then they need to provide feedback to the player rather than the complete rubbish that is shown to the player now. Either way, SI need to document features and explain the thinking behind them and how they are supposed to work etc. Try looking up tutoring in the online manual and see what you actually learn from it and how helpful it is to the player to help them understand the feature.

PoolFan, you are preaching to the unconvertable.

Lazaru5, I spent months learning how tutoring works in FM10 and I know enough to maximise the potential of almost all of my youngsters by the time they reach 19 or 20. How clever am I, looking forward to FM11 so I can use what I've learnt. Should have known better, SI moved the goalposts and we don't even know where they where to start with. I have yet to find a feature, in a game I've played, that didn't provide some way of learning precisely what was required to progress or make proper use of said feature, you can not do this with tutoring because you have no way of knowing exactly why you have succeeded or failed.

EDIT: And now I'm doing it to.

I have also just had issues with this. Paul Pogba and David Petruci refusing to be tutored by Ryan Giggs, Michael Carrick, Darren Fletcher and Ricardo Montolivo. WHY!!!!

They refuse, you respond with any of the options in an attempt to change their mind and they say they will leave as its not going well. Then I look at the established player and they are 'unhappy with my choice of player to be tutored'. Its an absolute joke and another poorly thought out 'feature' IMO.

And how come tutoring is only 100% guaranteed to work when one of your coaches suggests a player in the advice meeting? In previous saves ive had coaches recommend players to be tutored by certain players and it works. Yet when in other saves, when I try to do it off my own back, with the same two players, using the same options when asking, the player refuses.

People argue about press conferences but at least you can work them out and know what each answer will do. With tutoring it is completely random from one game to the next with no explanation. Its a joke

Cunning Linguist, I'd have thought it was obvious in the case of Ryan Giggs as everyone knows he's a useless slacker.

I've worn out several soap boxes already due to the absence of info on tutoring, and to be honest, I can see myself wearing out a few more, with little hope of seeing any change.

The only evidence that is needed to conclude that the Tutoring system in FM is botched, is that the AI can't get it to work either.

I thought it was good in FM10, once I had learnt enough to use it well, but I am still waiting for my hair to grow back, and just because I managed to learn enough to get results doesn't make it OK that no info is provided by SI, I mean how much don't I know?

Now they have fiddled with it and from what I have read on the forums many people are not impressed. This and the inclusion of agents stopped me from buying FM11, but always, always I come back to SI telling me "This can go further, with the appropriate players being eligible to tutor a youngster or learn from a more senior professional." ???

What if the two players didnt get along, to the point they hated each other, much like Gallas and Nasri? Would you still expect the manager to sack them?

Nasri was already a highly reputed player when Arsenal bought him. I'm not sure how the relationship between a borderline star first teamer and his captain has anything to do with 16 and 17 year old propects refusing to be tutored by established first teamers.

Nasri was already a highly reputed player when Arsenal bought him. I'm not sure how the relationship between a borderline star first teamer and his captain has anything to do with 16 and 17 year old propects refusing to be tutored by established first teamers.

The only point i was making with that was to show two team mates who hated each other, nothing more.

But in the game relationships need to develop over time. If two players end up falling out then its understandable that they wont want to be tutored by that player.

My concern with the tutoring is that its completely random. If I start a new save, I am using the default unedited database where relationships are already set and have not had time to change or develop. On the very first in-game day on a new save, I could ask Scholes to tutor Petrucci and everything will be fine. Then I could start a new save, do the same thing over again and petrucci will refuse. Why? Because its nothing to do with their relationship because nothing has had time to change. This leads me to believe its purely random.

i would imagine they include the random element to prevent every game going the same way. Neil does say above there is a random element to the system, but i dont think the entire thing would be purely random, otherwise your coaches would not suggest setting up tutoring situations, whenever they suggest one it always works.

But in the game relationships need to develop over time. If two players end up falling out then its understandable that they wont want to be tutored by that player.

My concern with the tutoring is that its completely random. If I start a new save, I am using the default unedited database where relationships are already set and have not had time to change or develop. On the very first in-game day on a new save, I could ask Scholes to tutor Petrucci and everything will be fine. Then I could start a new save, do the same thing over again and petrucci will refuse. Why? Because its nothing to do with their relationship because nothing has had time to change. This leads me to believe its purely random.

Post #16. It's not totally random apparently, just too random.

i would imagine they include the random element to prevent every game going the same way. Neil does say above there is a random element to the system, but i dont think the entire thing would be purely random, otherwise your coaches would not suggest setting up tutoring situations, whenever they suggest one it always works.

Being random further down the line is fine, when relationships have had time to develop and change. But when your using the default database, with relationships and personalities already set, it should work the same every time. Especially when your doing this on the very first day of the save where nothing has had chance to change.

If two players get on and personalities match up, what other reason could there be for a player to accept on one save and refuse on the next? Its another poorly thought out feature and needs fixing.

i think the thinking behind it is, you cannot repeat something in real life, in FM the same situation can happen an infinite number of times, the random element is to stop the same thing happening every single time, because thats boring. People make up their minds depending on a number of things at one moment, in FM its programmed so a player decides yes one time, but maybe no the next time. I dont think its poorly thought out, but poorly communicated to people who buy the game.