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tmolvik
13-01-2008, 08:08
I am sure this post could have been posted as a response to any of the soon hundreds of shot/goal-ratio articles, but I decided to post it here. If you tired of this topic, just don't read this post... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've read most threads on the shot/goal-ratio in these forums, and although it's the bug (and yes, it is a bug no matter how tactic-fanatics want to look at it) that has made me stop playing the game, I was planning to not get involved in this discussion. However, enough is enough, and the responses from some of the players in here are just so provocative that I can't shut up anymore.

Let's start with the beginning.. FM2008 comes out, a game which in previous versions has made millions of "managers" scream in agony or beeing over the moon after Heskey finally has scored a goal (Either it was his first goal of the season against their team of for it). One of the main sales points of this game has been "Match Engine Improvements" and "Easier To Use". Let's look at those two headliners for a while.

For us who has played this game since the first version, we have always been overwhelmed by the realism in the game. It has always been far better than its competitors, but was it maybe better before it became the money-machine it is right now? Before they're pushed to make a new version with plenty of new features every year? There is no doubt that it is still the best manager game out there, but the increasing amount of bugs, flaws and inconsistency for every version is worrying. In this version we are expecting the final(?) patch in February, aproxomately 8 months before we will see FM 2009. How will this affect the work on FM 2009 and is this fair on the customers that bought the game 4 months ago? I will just let this question hanging, as it will only start a playable/unplayable discussion which is totally useless. The game is technically playable, but that doesn't mean that it holds what it promises...

The main reason for writing this post was the shot/goals ratio, and the discussions that has followed afte this issue first was presented. Befor the patch, the main issues for me related to the match engine, was the missed penalties and the closing down bug. After the patch, shots/goals is by far the worst. What makes it even more annoying is that SI denies to acknowledge it as a bug (which I guess, means that it will not be fixed in the patch), and the a-typic answer for all the tactic-fanatics, saying "It's you tactics".

Well.. Let's try to look at real life football. I know that there was a post where some guy compared the shot/goals ratio in his game with real stats from the same league, however this comparison har many possible foults. First of all, I don't see the s/g-ratio as a problem in games not played by human managers. Comparing a whole season in FM using all teams, will therefore not give any good answers. The other answers which all players bringing this issue up is getting from other forum users is the "it's your tactics-response". Again, let's go back to reality.. Is there anyone here who actually think that if Manchester United in a regular 4-4-2 formation, fireing 40 shots a game will not score a goal with world class players? First of all, could anyone please present me with match stats from a regular game where it says 30-40 chances? And second, if it should happend in one game (sometimes it seems like the ball nevner will go in), it won't repeat itself week in and week out. Third, If I can trust the match commentary (which I hope I can), it is not like the shots are beeing fired from 50 yards, meaning that this is not either the "solution". Yeah, maybe som of the shots are of crappy quality, but not all of them. Most likely not even 50% if your team is packed with world class players.

Well maybe the player has a low morale you say. Yes, maybe he has. But even if Berbatov wants to leave Tottenham, Drogba is missing Mourinho and Anelka always is on the move, you don't see them suddenly turn in to ****** players, firing every ball towards the corner flag..

"AI has "cracked" your tactic" many is saying.. Well it's not like a teams tactic is as secret as the Coca Cola recipe. A opposition club which uses all of the analyzing tools, 100 hours of video footage and whos attending your games, has no more problem of cracking your tactic than it has to crack open its eggs in the morning. As I am from Norway I painfully had to watch Rosenborg winning over 10 years in a row. It was not because none of the other teams (who played almost the same team every year) did not know how Rosenborg played, it was because Rosenborg plainly was better than it's opposition. They rarely even changed their tactics playing away, but still one most of their matches. Never did suddenly all teams start to win against them with only creating 3 chances, while Rosenborg started to loose all their matches still creating 30. When it first happened it was of course because the other teams got smarter, but mostly because the strenght of the clubs became more equal. Therefore it is not realistic that a team should suddenly start loosing towards almost any opponent, just because they have "cracked" the tactic. And what are the odds that evry AI-manager cracks it at the same time? Also, why should it have any effect on the efficiency of Fernando Torres og Cristiano Ronaldo's shots? I see in FM's advertising that Ray Houghton is one of the mater minds behind the match engine.. I can not remember that Liverpool in their glory days changed tactics every other week, just because the opponent knew how they played.

The "easier to play" was also mentioned it the ad of this game. I know that it's more about the interface than the difficulty, but it is no doubt that SI hopes to attract many of the potential customers that up to now has looked at FM as an impossible and advanced spreadsheet. The advisor is therefore a nice addition for those players, and although I ofcourse turned it of after cheking what it was, I never once saw it tutoring me on how an extreme difference there is in having match tempo set at 5 instead of 6. Or short passes 3 insted of 4. Could somebody please tell them that it is the difference between victory and failure? And that they need to use about 20-30 minutes in front of every game to change their tactics to get a decent result? If they don't, just forget about 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or any of the other "old fashioned" tactics. Go to the tactics section of the forum and download a tactic that has "craked" the Match Engine for you. It doesn't matter if you have slow or fast players. If you're in Premier League or in Serie C. The dowloaded tactic will make you successful. All honors to those who has implemented thos tactics, but excuse me when I say that I have yet to se a team playing 2-2-3-2-1 in the Champions League...

Where are the players in all this? When did a world class striker become more useless than a third division player, just because another manager know how the team plays. In this game Peter Shilton could do a comeback, beeing much better than Peter Cech, just because the tactics are cracked (of course Cech would get a 6 or 7 no matter if he did not make a single save throughout the whole game while Shilton got a 6 making 7 impossible saves, but that is another story).

So what are we left with? There is still no doubt that this is the greatest manager game. For those of you who now are preparing to cut my head of because this is just whining, lets me just say a few things. I've been both successful and been not given a new contract in the game, but that does not change any aspects of the game. I too agree that it should not be as easy as just making sure that you have 11 eligable players for your team and press "Play Match". I also hope that stats, attributes and different mentalities will play a great role in the game. I don't want it to be a game where you win as long as you buy the best players, but still it must have some kind of realism. Today it is the opposite. Tactics counts for a lot more than your players, and that is not realistic. It's almost as Mourinho said it about his pies and eggs. You need good eggs to make a decent pie http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've written this more in frustration than anything else, so I am not really trying to start a new discussion. I feel that my point here should be quite obvious, and if neither the forum members or SI agrees with me, than I might just have to realize that the FM series is not what it was, and that its might not be a game for me anymore. As many of you most likely have understood, this post is more than just about the s/g-problem. There are plenty of other issues, bugs and problems that annoys me and that I could have brought up, but the s/g-thing only shows how divied it is possible to be about the same game. I still want to see that person who actually feels that the game would be more unrealistic if the s/g-ratio was tweaked a bit. That person should maybe start developing handball-manager 2009 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tmolvik
13-01-2008, 08:08
I am sure this post could have been posted as a response to any of the soon hundreds of shot/goal-ratio articles, but I decided to post it here. If you tired of this topic, just don't read this post... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've read most threads on the shot/goal-ratio in these forums, and although it's the bug (and yes, it is a bug no matter how tactic-fanatics want to look at it) that has made me stop playing the game, I was planning to not get involved in this discussion. However, enough is enough, and the responses from some of the players in here are just so provocative that I can't shut up anymore.

Let's start with the beginning.. FM2008 comes out, a game which in previous versions has made millions of "managers" scream in agony or beeing over the moon after Heskey finally has scored a goal (Either it was his first goal of the season against their team of for it). One of the main sales points of this game has been "Match Engine Improvements" and "Easier To Use". Let's look at those two headliners for a while.

For us who has played this game since the first version, we have always been overwhelmed by the realism in the game. It has always been far better than its competitors, but was it maybe better before it became the money-machine it is right now? Before they're pushed to make a new version with plenty of new features every year? There is no doubt that it is still the best manager game out there, but the increasing amount of bugs, flaws and inconsistency for every version is worrying. In this version we are expecting the final(?) patch in February, aproxomately 8 months before we will see FM 2009. How will this affect the work on FM 2009 and is this fair on the customers that bought the game 4 months ago? I will just let this question hanging, as it will only start a playable/unplayable discussion which is totally useless. The game is technically playable, but that doesn't mean that it holds what it promises...

The main reason for writing this post was the shot/goals ratio, and the discussions that has followed afte this issue first was presented. Befor the patch, the main issues for me related to the match engine, was the missed penalties and the closing down bug. After the patch, shots/goals is by far the worst. What makes it even more annoying is that SI denies to acknowledge it as a bug (which I guess, means that it will not be fixed in the patch), and the a-typic answer for all the tactic-fanatics, saying "It's you tactics".

Well.. Let's try to look at real life football. I know that there was a post where some guy compared the shot/goals ratio in his game with real stats from the same league, however this comparison har many possible foults. First of all, I don't see the s/g-ratio as a problem in games not played by human managers. Comparing a whole season in FM using all teams, will therefore not give any good answers. The other answers which all players bringing this issue up is getting from other forum users is the "it's your tactics-response". Again, let's go back to reality.. Is there anyone here who actually think that if Manchester United in a regular 4-4-2 formation, fireing 40 shots a game will not score a goal with world class players? First of all, could anyone please present me with match stats from a regular game where it says 30-40 chances? And second, if it should happend in one game (sometimes it seems like the ball nevner will go in), it won't repeat itself week in and week out. Third, If I can trust the match commentary (which I hope I can), it is not like the shots are beeing fired from 50 yards, meaning that this is not either the "solution". Yeah, maybe som of the shots are of crappy quality, but not all of them. Most likely not even 50% if your team is packed with world class players.

Well maybe the player has a low morale you say. Yes, maybe he has. But even if Berbatov wants to leave Tottenham, Drogba is missing Mourinho and Anelka always is on the move, you don't see them suddenly turn in to ****** players, firing every ball towards the corner flag..

"AI has "cracked" your tactic" many is saying.. Well it's not like a teams tactic is as secret as the Coca Cola recipe. A opposition club which uses all of the analyzing tools, 100 hours of video footage and whos attending your games, has no more problem of cracking your tactic than it has to crack open its eggs in the morning. As I am from Norway I painfully had to watch Rosenborg winning over 10 years in a row. It was not because none of the other teams (who played almost the same team every year) did not know how Rosenborg played, it was because Rosenborg plainly was better than it's opposition. They rarely even changed their tactics playing away, but still one most of their matches. Never did suddenly all teams start to win against them with only creating 3 chances, while Rosenborg started to loose all their matches still creating 30. When it first happened it was of course because the other teams got smarter, but mostly because the strenght of the clubs became more equal. Therefore it is not realistic that a team should suddenly start loosing towards almost any opponent, just because they have "cracked" the tactic. And what are the odds that evry AI-manager cracks it at the same time? Also, why should it have any effect on the efficiency of Fernando Torres og Cristiano Ronaldo's shots? I see in FM's advertising that Ray Houghton is one of the mater minds behind the match engine.. I can not remember that Liverpool in their glory days changed tactics every other week, just because the opponent knew how they played.

The "easier to play" was also mentioned it the ad of this game. I know that it's more about the interface than the difficulty, but it is no doubt that SI hopes to attract many of the potential customers that up to now has looked at FM as an impossible and advanced spreadsheet. The advisor is therefore a nice addition for those players, and although I ofcourse turned it of after cheking what it was, I never once saw it tutoring me on how an extreme difference there is in having match tempo set at 5 instead of 6. Or short passes 3 insted of 4. Could somebody please tell them that it is the difference between victory and failure? And that they need to use about 20-30 minutes in front of every game to change their tactics to get a decent result? If they don't, just forget about 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or any of the other "old fashioned" tactics. Go to the tactics section of the forum and download a tactic that has "craked" the Match Engine for you. It doesn't matter if you have slow or fast players. If you're in Premier League or in Serie C. The dowloaded tactic will make you successful. All honors to those who has implemented thos tactics, but excuse me when I say that I have yet to se a team playing 2-2-3-2-1 in the Champions League...

Where are the players in all this? When did a world class striker become more useless than a third division player, just because another manager know how the team plays. In this game Peter Shilton could do a comeback, beeing much better than Peter Cech, just because the tactics are cracked (of course Cech would get a 6 or 7 no matter if he did not make a single save throughout the whole game while Shilton got a 6 making 7 impossible saves, but that is another story).

So what are we left with? There is still no doubt that this is the greatest manager game. For those of you who now are preparing to cut my head of because this is just whining, lets me just say a few things. I've been both successful and been not given a new contract in the game, but that does not change any aspects of the game. I too agree that it should not be as easy as just making sure that you have 11 eligable players for your team and press "Play Match". I also hope that stats, attributes and different mentalities will play a great role in the game. I don't want it to be a game where you win as long as you buy the best players, but still it must have some kind of realism. Today it is the opposite. Tactics counts for a lot more than your players, and that is not realistic. It's almost as Mourinho said it about his pies and eggs. You need good eggs to make a decent pie http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've written this more in frustration than anything else, so I am not really trying to start a new discussion. I feel that my point here should be quite obvious, and if neither the forum members or SI agrees with me, than I might just have to realize that the FM series is not what it was, and that its might not be a game for me anymore. As many of you most likely have understood, this post is more than just about the s/g-problem. There are plenty of other issues, bugs and problems that annoys me and that I could have brought up, but the s/g-thing only shows how divied it is possible to be about the same game. I still want to see that person who actually feels that the game would be more unrealistic if the s/g-ratio was tweaked a bit. That person should maybe start developing handball-manager 2009 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

George Graham
13-01-2008, 08:23
Agree.

Sadly I dont think SI do- Miles has actually said that this is the best yet.

Starr_Man5
13-01-2008, 08:40
Agree, certainly what you've said about tactics being the be-all and end-all, and the moronic 20 increment sliders are another valid point.
The thing is, if SI were in ANY WAY ambitious about their beloved series, they would SERIOUSLY CONSIDER ripping the whole thing up and starting afresh.
Never mind "New Skin!" or "New Features!!" (Who really gives a shiny sh1te about a skin you'll soon change anyway?), why not "New Game!"

Because all they've done since '05 is Re-hash and Re-package.

And it's all very tired and old.

tmolvik
13-01-2008, 08:52
I am sure that Miles actually honestly thinks that this is the best game yet, and in many aspects I am sure it is. However if all the new features actually had worked properly it would be a GREAT game, but they're not, i.e s/g-ratio and board confidence.

I totally agree that they should dump new skins and fancy new features, but I don't think that this is up to neither Miles, Paul or anyone else. FM is a part of a company like any other game, and companies wants to make money. They don't make money on continuing to patch games until they are "perfect", they make them on presenting new products that we need to buy. So even if Miles or some of the others wanted to tweak this game until perfection, they wouldn't be granted permission to do this. Hopefully (although I don't like to pay full price for an update of an old game), there won't be too many new fancy features, but rather an upgrade and tweaking of 2008. We can all dream http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BobbyB123
13-01-2008, 10:39
It's not about ripping the game up and starting again.

All they need to do is forget new developments for a year and tweak the game to make sure that all existing features are perfect , and then build from there.

But SI must realise , that making people wait 5 months for a final release of the game with a proper patch just isn't acceptable.

magpies_fan
13-01-2008, 10:46
i got through half of your thread and gave up....so sorry

i kind of agree BUT

this game deserves soooooo much praise and i hope they keep producing this game unlike LMA Manager

but yea it is important that this game maintains its standards

snoggers
13-01-2008, 11:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BobbyB123:
It's not about ripping the game up and starting again.

All they need to do is forget new developments for a year and tweak the game to make sure that all existing features are perfect , and then build from there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree that 08 and some of the New features need to be worked on,and before more new ideas are implemented in 09 these and the game should be running as intended.Now you now people will say that this will be sorted after the new patch,but then others will say it's still not right.
So why not use what is there in what will be 8.0.2 and then if need be correct the other issues this patch may throw up to at least get a great out of the box game for 09.Leave adding new things out of 09 to make the game the best it can be,now same again a lot of people will say that's nothing but an update thier paying for,but surely a full working game that needs very little doing to it is what everyone wants.
This could then become the platform to take the game to the next level and give an even more fantastic gaming experience for novice to old hand who plays the game.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 11:05
It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.

tmolvik
13-01-2008, 11:15
I think that what most of you are saying is what most of us really want, but as I mentioned I find it quite unlikely that it will happen. Considering that the active users on this forum only make a few percent (if even that much) of the people buying the game, SEGA/SI can't sell FM2009 as an advanced patch for FM2008. Even if the active user (us) and maybe even developers want it themselves.

Of course it would be interesting to hear SI's own thoughts about this approach for the next game, but I'm afraid that it then will turn into more of a disussion of if anythings really wrong with this one...

Spagbol
13-01-2008, 12:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:
Agree, certainly what you've said about tactics being the be-all and end-all, and the moronic 20 increment sliders are another valid point.
The thing is, if SI were in ANY WAY ambitious about their beloved series, they would SERIOUSLY CONSIDER ripping the whole thing up and starting afresh.
Never mind "New Skin!" or "New Features!!" (Who really gives a shiny sh1te about a skin you'll soon change anyway?), why not "New Game!"

Because all they've done since '05 is Re-hash and Re-package.

And it's all very tired and old. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if everyone has forgotten but there was a time where there would be a completely fresh CM/FM, the following year would be pretty much a data update with a new league/feature or two, then the following year again it would be a fresh game.

I think everyone can agree that things are geting a bit overfamiliar and tired now. Between FM05 and FM07 it seems to have slouched, I don't anticipate FM09 like I did CM03 or such.

aston_martin
13-01-2008, 13:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Came in here to say exactly that http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

George Graham
13-01-2008, 13:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aston_martin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Came in here to say exactly that http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It absolutely has- Ive seen enough glimpses (particularly pre-patch) to see that the match engine has the potential to be an absolute delight.

But what annoys me is that the game was quite obviously released too early, and the way SI seems unprepared to accept any of the quite justified criticism levelled at SI because of this.

I think many are frustrated not because of issues but because essentially 8.01 shouldve been the quality we got out of the box.

I thought SI moved from Eidos because of the same issue with CM4- yet a call was quite clearly made to release FM08 with a pretty major bug in the match engine, and without a release day patch being guaranteed.

Im sure most would prefer the release being delayed, rather than wait for 3 mths after release for a patch that we can only hope makes FM08 the best yet.

tmolvik
13-01-2008, 13:45
It's nice to see a thread were everybody agrees for a change http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You make a good point about the SI/Eidos seperation, but unfortunately I don't think any company is better than the other when it comes to making money. Shareholders and investors wants their cut, and by delaying a game for 3 months, you're kind of cutting out 25% of the annual profit by releasing a game every year. You won't see FIFA 2009,5 either, and that's a bit of the problem. Pressure is high but the time schedule is tight, and the outcome is what we see. Like you say they should also be a bit more prepared to accept the critisism (although I still think they are better than many other publishers, who just don't give a damn), and when a thread like the main one about the s/g-ratio consists of about 16 pages, it doesn't hold up to almost deny that it's an issue.

But I agree with everyone here.. It has the potential, and there is nothing more I would like to see than it to succeed. Come on SI http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ackter
13-01-2008, 13:47
I'm quite pleasently surprised that this hasn't degenerated into the usual drivel that passes on here as discussion.

I think the effort you put in to your first post is keeping the thread together.

ifllorescu
13-01-2008, 13:53
I agree completely. I too am extremely frustrated with this game.

My opinion is that the problem is this new approach they have to the game. In the past, as someone else said, they would come with a new version (match engine) every 3-4 years.

I think that back in 2005 they had an ambitious idea: to create a do all, upgrading match engine. So perhaps their thinking was: we will change this module and that module and all of the sudden the game will be different - all at the programmers' control. As a parenthesis, this same approach is currently the practice with the NBA live series, NHL series (and in general EA titles).

Unfortunately, now they reached a level of complexity so when they change something 15 other things change as well. The fact that the result is completely unpredictable is evident by the multitude of issues that appear after every new patch.

So I will wait until February or whatever it is when they said they will bring a new patch but I am very skeptical about it. I do not remember one time in the history of CM/FM when a patch that makes the game perfect would take this long (almost 4 months). CM4 was one buggy version and we waited two months for a patch but none of the patches would create bigger problems than they fixed.

wahoo05
13-01-2008, 13:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aston_martin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Came in here to say exactly that http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It absolutely has- Ive seen enough glimpses (particularly pre-patch) to see that the match engine has the potential to be an absolute delight.

But what annoys me is that the game was quite obviously released too early, and the way SI seems unprepared to accept any of the quite justified criticism levelled at SI because of this.

I think many are frustrated not because of issues but because essentially 8.01 shouldve been the quality we got out of the box.

I thought SI moved from Eidos because of the same issue with CM4- yet a call was quite clearly made to release FM08 with a pretty major bug in the match engine, and without a release day patch being guaranteed.

Im sure most would prefer the release being delayed, rather than wait for 3 mths after release for a patch that we can only hope makes FM08 the best yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All great points. It's just as fun to watch some people defend the game to the point of hilarity as well as people who don't have a clue and needlessly complain about being 'cheated' just the same.

The game looks great, it just needs a couple tiny tweaks to be as good as it promises.

T-Bag
13-01-2008, 13:58
Excellent post, well done on posting a well thought out and literate dicussion

I am very worried about the future though. A Si response to one of my posts in another thread stated they did indeed believe this was the best version yet.

If they HONESTLY believe this then there is no way FM will never improve. Of course it is more likely to be PR spin. I hope there have been meetings in Si towers about how much of a shambles FM08 has been and what they are going to do about FM09. If there hasn't I then I am even more worried. I really don't know what to think... do they really think this is the best version yet ?

I think maybe the code has become so complex that adding even a small feature just throws everything out of whack. A year goes by and we get about 3 new features and the entire game breaks. I don't envy them but the product just isn't up to standard anymore.

BobbyB123
13-01-2008, 14:02
I think the whole patching to fix the game is more of a general , consistant problem. Rather than simply being isolated to this game.

The problem I have , is that 7.0.2 , was a very good game. You'd have got alot of takers for a database/graphics update slapped on top of that. The problem is that SI seem to make the game worse (In terms of features that are continued) that the previous games last patch. Which makes you think of the one step forward and two steps back kind of idea.

I'm not saying that 7.0.2 was perfect , just that, outside of the newer features for the new game + the database update , its a far superior game as things currently stand.

ifllorescu
13-01-2008, 14:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BobbyB123:
I think the whole patching to fix the game is more of a general , consistant problem. Rather than simply being isolated to this game.

The problem I have , is that 7.0.2 , was a very good game. You'd have got alot of takers for a database/graphics update slapped on top of that. The problem is that SI seem to make the game worse (In terms of features that are continued) that the previous games last patch. Which makes you think of the one step forward and two steps back kind of idea.

I'm not saying that 7.0.2 was perfect , just that, outside of the newer features for the new game + the database update , its a far superior game as things currently stand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was thinking about this too. If they updated the database and added the feature with the faces of generated players to the 2007 version I would still play that.

Powermonger
13-01-2008, 14:14
Well said. The last FM I played was FM05, I skipped 06 and 07, but 08 isn't a great deal different which makes it disappointing. I do like the new skin but a new skin does not make a new game.

I'm largely frustrated that no further innovation has been made to tactics, the way they are presented and match day. As I've mentioned in other posts, it's such a core part of the game but it's stagnating. Sure the match engine has been tweaked but the presentation hasn't changed since CM4, which makes me wonder where SI are spending their development time.

Any other type of game and it would've been completely revamped by now, but 6 versions on and we still get the same thing each release. It's depressing.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 14:23
How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game.

Smoothiebaloo
13-01-2008, 14:59
I am just wondering, did FM06 or FM07 get as many complaints as FM08 gets?

gazzamcg
13-01-2008, 15:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course a three year old game should be inferior.

Obviously there have been added features that you would expect since '05, but do you think the match engine has progressed significantly since '05 ?

The training certainly hasn't, still the same crude which nobody can justify and other fundamental features haven't improved greatly since then.

When are SI going to stop this repeatable cycle of releasing a new tiresome version with a few tweaks here and there.

Kriss
13-01-2008, 15:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Smoothiebaloo:
I am just wondering, did FM06 or FM07 get as many complaints as FM08 gets? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same, just about different things.

It's a routine for some people and often serves only to cloud any real issues.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 15:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazzamcg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course a three year old game should be inferior.

Obviously there have been added features that you would expect since '05, but do you think the match engine has progressed significantly since '05 ?

The training certainly hasn't, still the same crude which nobody can justify and other fundamental features haven't improved greatly since then.

When are SI going to stop this repeatable cycle of releasing a new tiresome version with a few tweaks here and there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the match engine is far superior, especially to 5.0.0. The training is far superior under the hood, despite looking similar.

The only things that's similar, though it's still been noticeably improved, is the transfers.

The contract negotiation back then is much worse than it is now. Zaccardo wanting a raise of £66k a week over his £4k wages for example.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 15:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Smoothiebaloo:
I am just wondering, did FM06 or FM07 get as many complaints as FM08 gets? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but they were spread out over many different bugs.

The main problem on the forums is that the complaints are all about the same 5 or 6 bugs.

tmolvik
13-01-2008, 15:11
I think ifllorescu has a lot of good points that others also mentions.. Is the code really getting so complicated that it actually brings the game backwards instead of forwards? The same will then be the reason of why it takes so long to release a patch, and why they still not might make the game any better... If so, priority one must be to get a match engine that is stable enough to handle changes and improvements without messing up the game.

Still after reading my own thread here, I was just starting to think if many of the posts in the forum here are a case of "shooting the pianist". Is it SI that decides to develp the game this way, or is it really SEGA or others that are pushing the game in the wrong direction? There is a lot of pressure from the forum users here, but no matter how bad this or any future versions will be, you would never experience SI go out and say "We're sorry, and agrees that the game is crap". That would be a corporate suicide, and not accepted by SEGA or anyone else connected to SI. Therefore they have to work as kind of a shield towards the ones who really is to blame, which makes us even more frustrating as we then think that we don't even get any understanding from the ones who actually invented this game and should treat it as their baby.. It's just a thought, and I don't even know if I agree with myself, but it's worth taking into consideration, as many discussions easily will go in wrong directions if this is the case. As we all remember SI and Eidos splitted up for some of the similar reasons...

Powermonger
13-01-2008, 15:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My comment was in terms of view matches, tactical settings, match statistics etc which is the core component of the game. The match engine itself that moves all the 'lady bugs' around is superior but all the pieces surrounding that hasn't.

If this was a RTS, a developer would've changed the graphics by now, enhanced the tactical interface and added more features to it. (Note this is context with tactics and match day, not the game overall).

Ackter
13-01-2008, 15:25
Ok I gethca. No there' not much difference there.

Powermonger
14-01-2008, 02:00
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Ok I gethca. No there' not much difference there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is largley where my disappointment lies. The tactical part of the game could be enhanced further and with more statistics provided, we seem to only get the bare minimum.

Action Zones for instance hasn't change for I don't know how long, but this could be developed further either by splitting the possession statistics down to positions or each each third split into 3 seperate areas: Left, Middle & Right.

That's just one thing that springs to mind.

xouman
14-01-2008, 03:19
FM2008 is a great game but is not close to be perfect. You can't play it as you like, there are some things that you should have in mind, as avoiding some tactics that now don't work, pay attention to tactics...
I agree that a team with best players will be a top club, even if they are playing awful for their level. game should focus more on interactions, ME should be tweaked to have good results, and some things must be more comprehensive.
At my current game I'm in 2024 with a non-league club brought to EPL. After finishing 17,16 and 11, last season a lots of teams performed bad and I managed to finish 3rd with 65 points (chelsea and wet ham managed 86-85). This year board expects me to finish at least 5th, despite my players are useless (I only play with welsh players and chaiman sold the best).
This season I played charity trophy, because I won FA cup (easiest pairings and luck against Arsenal). I was on holiday (I haven't noticed) and lost 4-0, because my players are crap and team did not use my tactics. My team only relies on my tactics, but board also expects a top performing from me. If I don't have success I'm sure I'll sacked. It's not fair :/

Wizard
14-01-2008, 03:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So mate, you think FM2008 has a PA of 200 and CA of 78, but sadly stuck in a smallish club without much facility and coaches with only 3-4 stars ability... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I agree...100% http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

achilles elbow
14-01-2008, 03:54
Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals??

delibey
14-01-2008, 03:57
How much different a thread can be when the OP is decent and written nicely. Unfortunately this is such a huge game that one change affects a lot of things. So now SI can't implement serious changes without changing other stuff. The s/g ratio right now is an example, they need to fix the match engine and the way matches are played out rather than just up the s/g ratio. That's a pretty big issue by itself. This means we're stuck with small enhancements unless they decide not to release the game for one year. There's been a lot of changes to the ME this year? It's being fixed right now, so that hasn't worked out well has it...The all-new confidence is a joke. I'm sure SI means well and these are good improvements if they work. But one year(or even less taking into account patches for the previous game etc.) is just not enough to release a much better, improved game with new and working features imho. If it can be done, great. I'll hang my head in shame and go buy it. But it seems like that's not the case anymore.

George Graham
14-01-2008, 04:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by achilles elbow:
Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats precisely what the problem is.

This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights.

George Graham
14-01-2008, 04:48
Also from experience if you just use the supplied tactics you dont get affected as much as you do with custom tactics.

I really want to get into the tactical side and teamtalks, but have just got fed up with a) having to workaround issues, b) having to workout SIs interpretation of football in terms of what affects what and what is effective under certain conditions, as imo there ideas do not always match my perception of real life (note I say perception here!).

So if you frustrated by FM08 give the built-in tactics a try.

George Graham
14-01-2008, 04:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by achilles elbow:
Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats precisely what the problem is.

This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too.

Thunder God
14-01-2008, 05:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have.

Jimbokav1971
14-01-2008, 05:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by achilles elbow:
Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats precisely what the problem is.
This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks God someone else has eventually seens sense.

I've been posting that for weeks now and everyone else has just continued to rant on and on about Super keepers http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

George Graham
14-01-2008, 05:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thunder God:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think finishing as a whole was nerfed for 8.01.

As imo the release version (for all its closing down issues) was brilliant from an attacking perspective- the sheer range and variety of finishes was superb. The things I miss most was:

* The frequency of power shots- after all with the new light balls even I can hit screamers, so why this was toned down so much is beyond me- as really any pro will be able to hit a ball with power, accuracy is another thing- so they shouldve kept power but tweaked the accurarcy.

* Curling shots- very rare in 8.01, and I used to love it when a player was 1v1 at an angle and would curl it delicately around the keeper, even when they went narrowly wide it was cool.

GillsMan
14-01-2008, 05:23
Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

What I will say regarding shots-to-goals ratio is that IRL, from what I've seen, the away team tends to score a greater percentage of goals from shots on target (SoT). I don't know why this is, but a cursory look at last week's chances reveals this to appear true. E.g., many away teams had a goals from SoT percentage of between 25-50%, whilst home teams averaged around 10-40%. This could well be down to the fact that home teams will usually simply create more chances.

Hmmm, more stuff to ponder. I want a job as a football statician. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

George Graham
14-01-2008, 05:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by achilles elbow:
Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats precisely what the problem is.
This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks God someone else has eventually seens sense.

I've been posting that for weeks now and everyone else has just continued to rant on and on about Super keepers http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eventually? Lol- I saw it from day one, I think many others have too. Pretty sure this thread focuses on poor finishing and not superkeepers:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4982071363

George Graham
14-01-2008, 05:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved.

eXistenZ
14-01-2008, 05:30
tmolvik, i give you 100% right. Unfortunatly SI won't which will be the reason that FM08 is my first- and last- game of SI. I really get ****ed off by those hard-core SI-fans who scream: "it's your tactics, it's like that in real life"

While people rant about only one aspect (missed chances, super-GK,..) it is obviuos all these thing belong together, because they are all part of the same crappy match engine. SI has to do someting about the whole aspect of the match engine or the game will stay a flop.

Personnaly i find it unacceptable that a game that has come out end of octobre only will work in february, and even that is not yet for sure.

Thunder God
14-01-2008, 05:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thunder God:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think finishing as a whole was nerfed for 8.01.

As imo the release version (for all its closing down issues) was brilliant from an attacking perspective- the sheer range and variety of finishes was superb. The things I miss most was:

* The frequency of power shots- after all with the new light balls even I can hit screamers, so why this was toned down so much is beyond me- as really any pro will be able to hit a ball with power, accuracy is another thing- so they shouldve kept power but tweaked the accurarcy.

* Curling shots- very rare in 8.01, and I used to love it when a player was 1v1 at an angle and would curl it delicately around the keeper, even when they went narrowly wide it was cool. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, really missing all of the above, particularly miss glorious curling long shots.

It would be nice to see a player go around a keeper once and a while too.

Becomes very depressing to see strikers pass the ball into keepers midrifts all the time http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Barnzy
14-01-2008, 05:43
I really do think that the match engine is really struggling to give you a visual reprensentation of what is going on in the game, chances that look like great chances often being saved/missed for example.

sirdez24
14-01-2008, 07:02
I still have a big problem with tactics, mainly because often it feels like a lottery and often I have no idea where I'm going wrong. I'll be doing really well, but will suddenly hit a form slump, even though I seem to be creating the same chances. Do I tweak it or do I keep it the same? Which parts of my tactic are being exposed? I'd like much more interaction from coaches and assistant managers here, especially for those who don't have the time/patience to watch matches on full to find out where a tactic has suddenly started to break down.

I also like the slider system, but find it quite limited. If I want my fullback or centre-half to make sure they stay goal-side of a player, I have to try and find the correct combination of team instructions, player instructions and opposition instructions. Why don't I have the option to go to my defender and tell him precisely where he should be on the pitch? Why can't I tell my wide men that it's really important the team keeps it's shape against a certain team who can exploit it?

In essence, I guess I just don't feel in control of my team enough. The slider system for team instructions is fine, but individual player instructions to me don't feel personal enough. Where is the bread and butter stuff?

14-01-2008, 07:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives.

George Graham
14-01-2008, 08:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzdovan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not saying it is- but theres nothing wrong with posting it to help others who are frustrated with the game and want to play it is there?

George Graham
14-01-2008, 08:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sirdez24:
I still have a big problem with tactics, mainly because often it feels like a lottery and often I have no idea where I'm going wrong. I'll be doing really well, but will suddenly hit a form slump, even though I seem to be creating the same chances. Do I tweak it or do I keep it the same? Which parts of my tactic are being exposed? I'd like much more interaction from coaches and assistant managers here, especially for those who don't have the time/patience to watch matches on full to find out where a tactic has suddenly started to break down.

I also like the slider system, but find it quite limited. If I want my fullback or centre-half to make sure they stay goal-side of a player, I have to try and find the correct combination of team instructions, player instructions and opposition instructions. Why don't I have the option to go to my defender and tell him precisely where he should be on the pitch? Why can't I tell my wide men that it's really important the team keeps it's shape against a certain team who can exploit it?

In essence, I guess I just don't feel in control of my team enough. The slider system for team instructions is fine, but individual player instructions to me don't feel personal enough. Where is the bread and butter stuff? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im the same- I often feel that Im at the mercy of individual errors, rather than clearly seeing my tactics go wrong.

Now this is realistic- as managers all over the world tear their hair out when players make mistakes or unforced errors.

But in the real world a manager can take a player aside and have a word, or even show the whole team where they didnt follow his instructions or failed to do what they should be doing by analysing the game and pointing out mistakes.

Now I dont expect the full gamut of options available to a real life manager but come on SI give us something!!!!

FM is cursed by occurances that at the very best we have a very indirect and generalised way of dealing with- and in the context of the game this is not "fair" on the gamer.

I just do not feel I am managing a team of real life players- as the options to communicate with them are so limited.

We need more- even if its just the ability to say "why did you do X?" when my tactics specifically said Y. Or how about diving? Its so random and is horrible when your expecting a player to shoot but he dives when under no pressure (and even sometimes gets a second yellow and thus Red)- we cant even tell a player we dont want him diving.

The game is becoming paperthin and very stale- the brand new features this year were pretty poor and things like matchflow are not enough to keep this game fresh.

cafe_latte
14-01-2008, 08:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Ackter - If our friends at SI get their act together, then version 8.0.2 on Football Manager will be the best version on FM/CM ever - and that's not even an exaggeration!

14-01-2008, 08:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzdovan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not saying it is- but theres nothing wrong with posting it to help others who are frustrated with the game and want to play it is there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course there isn't and it definitely does help.

I usually play the game in LAN with two friends. One of them is having the same problem as me and the other one uses pretty much a default tactic and has no issues. I have also noticed that AI vs AI games seem fine number of shots wise but they also miss a lot of one on ones.

BobbyB123
14-01-2008, 09:01
The issue is to do with inconsistancy in the match engine between the user and AI teams.

And some of the results it produces are very unrealistic. On 13 times out of 30 games with Man Utd I've failed to turn a draw into a victory. Despite dominating most of those game.

Why can't we just have the 7.0.2 engine back, that was much more realistic , without giving too higher goals per game.

Also another thing is that teams with naturally more attacking football and better players will score more goals. But the game doesn't seem to reflect this , even though it reflects the amount of chances that they create.

neilb242
14-01-2008, 09:56
The thing thats annoyed me recently is those games, whether its against lesser teams or top teams, where it feels like the result is pre-determined. Where you just know a last minute equaliser will come even if they are down to nine men and playing below their normal standard. Or when you have been on a long winning streak, which ends for no apparent reason you can see, which makes you feel like the computer thought it was time to lose.

Given many of the factors mentioned by the original poster, the problem can be identifying why you are underperforming? Is it moral, which I think is far too easy to damage, or is it tactics, which are way too important? Or is it because I didn't give enough attention to opponent instructions and individual tactics, which, to be honest, bore me and would stop me from playing if I had to spend hours doing this?

Who knows, maybe its all of them. SI has a difficult job on their hands as people want realism, but also fun. if it was ultra realistic, then you would be spending a week on every game, but how much fun is that?

As to the people saying about new features, and how they work/or don't etc. I understand this fully. however...

Last year I plugged in my barely working amiga, and had a blast on some of the games. I then found a championship manager game from around 1994 I think. I loaded a game up, had a fiddle about, and switched it off within half an hour. Why? Because I couldn't do half the stuff I wanted to, it was slow, there was no interaction.

Its probably similar if you try playing fm 05 (can't say for certain as never owned it). Play that now after a few hours on fm08 and you'll be crying out for some of the new features to be available.

The version I've played on most is CM00/01. I enjoyed it because it was simple when you wanted it to be, but if you wanted to go further into detail, you could. Thats what I'd like now, a game that once you've set up your tactics, strategy and so on, you can either get on with things with only minor tweaking. surely this is how it is done in real life? Man utd generally play with the same tactic, and similar personel. If there is a dangerman, fergie will deal with that, or if he needs new players he'll go shopping. but he won't be altering tactics in any major way, and can say pretty much what he likes in public without his players bawling their eyes out. and if they do, he can quite simply deal with it however he sees fit. I know thats simplifying it a bit, but we are suppose to be playing a game, not taking a managerment course.

If SI came up with a perfect match engine and game, I would happily pay money for solely an update to the database. If I buy a new game, say for example half life, I don't expect to be buying a new version of it the following year. Yet with football manager, every single year a new version comes out.

I'm sorry if this post is a bit here and there, I've written it as I've thought it. I agree with the original poster, there are a collection of things that need correcting. But this game is still very good, and I do appreciate the hard job SI have. everyone wants something different from the game. With the later championship manager games I felt they were getting there, a game that could be relatively simple once you got to know it, but could also provide deeper play for people who wanted to tinker. With this version, the first football manager I have significantly played, I feel there is too much going on. It feels like I don't have a choice to play more simply if I choose to anymore, only that I have to play in great detail whether I want to or not. And thats, for me at least, is taking some of the fun away.

tmolvik
14-01-2008, 10:25
Very nice post by neilb242. I totally agree with the aspect that many of us complain about how nice earlier versions was, but still wouldn't play them again because they're missing important features. At the same time I also agree that when I open a new game every year, a new database with the latest transfers is just as important as a new feature. Of course the game needs to renew itself, but not every year and not when time pressure affects the quality of the game.

At the same time I also found an interesting post by sirdez24 and George Graham, about the missing possibility of knowing why things go wrong. Further coach/ass.man interaction would be a great feature, but also some kind of feeback that shows you that the resaon that Cristiano Ronaldo netted 3 times against you was because your full back was way to slow. Or that your short passes did not work at all because of the muddy field. Don't know in which format, and not necisarrily that straight forward, but it will make tactics more interesting for people.

What I must say I disagree a bit with, is the wishes for even more features before SI has managed to get in control over those already implemented. We all would like new features, but not at any costs I hope?

Anyway thank you all for keeping this thread as a serious and calm discussion without any name calling or screaming at SI. Hopefully it will be a thread which they also might get something useful out of http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ljuba82
14-01-2008, 10:32
Excellent post!!! I especially agree with "cracking tactics" part.

Altough previous versions were not perfect, they were playable, this is the first version since I'm playing CM/FM (and I'm playing it for last 10 years) that is simply unplayable, simply not realistic enough. And I'm not talking about minor anooyances, like in every game, ME in FM 2008 really put a stick in your eyes.

tmolvik
14-01-2008, 12:55
Thank you, and that might also be one of the most annoying parts, as it is completely unrealistic.

It also kills me that my opposition keeps on scoring at de end of added time. When they get a chance 2.46 into the three minutes of added time it never goes wrong that they score. I'm sure it is not a bug, and that there is someway one can prevent it by keep cracking tactics, but it's still irritating..

Tony Dolby
14-01-2008, 13:19
You've made some good points here.

Somewhere on this list, someone from SI admitted that they have tweaked the finishing power of strikers.

The problem as I see it is that too many chances are being created due to midfielders being too good and defenders being too poor. A world-class midfielder playing against world class defenders may produce two or three defence splitting passes in a game certainly not seven or eight.

As for tactics, if this game is about realism, why are SI trying to stop 'killer' tactics. These do not happen in real-life and a 2-2-2-4 tactic would be destroyed by any real-life team.

The only exception I can think of was Brazil's 4-2-4 tactic in the 1950's. It worked for a while because they had great players.

emgergo
14-01-2008, 13:50
4-2-4 was not that suicidal, and it was widely employed at that time. Actually, it's only a step from the current 4-4-2.

tmolvik
14-01-2008, 13:53
Another problem with the shot/goals-ratio problem, is that I think it also will have something to do with the confidence issue. If you read your match confidence after a typical s/g-match, you often see your supporter spokesperson tellgin you that your fans are dissapointed with the teams inability to convert chances into goals.. As your surroundings total perception of you (which I guess is some kind of median of all feedback during the season) affects if you keep your job or not, this will then indirectly decide your faith. A bit scary when you hear many stories of players/managers who are getting sacked even though they have brought success to their club.

Saxo
14-01-2008, 13:55
I also stopped playing FM. Too many silly little bugs both in the match engine and in the overall AI.

sacripante
14-01-2008, 14:16
I was reading this post and i found it very interesting, so i decided to add my opinion..
In addition to all things written here, there is something that i find unrealistic:
all teams can "travel" far too easy from their box to the opponent's one. I see often player running with the ball (well not only running, sprinting..) 60 -70 yards, running between the defenders who seems rooted to the ground. IRL u can see a coast-to-coast 1 or 2 times in a year, and when it happens everyone talk about that as something exceptional.. Here it happens even at very low levels.
Again, u can see lots of 50-60 yard perfect passes, with the ball "on fly" for some seconds and no defenders moving until the attacker stopped the ball. Obviuosly, those perfect passes even at very low levels.
I could go on, but i think my opinion (obviously is an opinion and not "The Truth") is clear; however what i described help the ME to create lots of chances.

sirdez24
14-01-2008, 19:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by emgergo:
4-2-4 was not that suicidal, and it was widely employed at that time. Actually, it's only a step from the current 4-4-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly - if you watch current day Man United, whoever is out wide, sat Ronaldo and Giggs, will push forward far enough to create a 4-2-4 in effect. However they also push back in the build up so it's not strictly a two man midfield, which would get eaten alive.

KDR
14-01-2008, 20:07
I have to agree with what a lot of others have said already. SI say this is the best version yet, and I would broadly go along with that. But it will only be seen as such by us, the players, if the issues that have been so well covered over the last few months get resolved.
I can't say that I have seen anyone caning sides in terms of shots 11 v. 11 in my game post-patch (but then I did go back to Beta 1), but what I have seen is the 'cracked tactics' issue, whereby my team who had previously lost two in eleven - and only four in twenty-five - suddenly couldn't find any space whatsoever, couldn't shoot, and even when defenders were goal-side, couldn't stop shots flying past the keeper from well outside the box.
Due to other posts here, I started watching games in their entirety and saw my players suddenly ignoring the instructions that they had previously adhered to well, while at the same time I started losing 3-1 despite the opposition only having three shots on target - my previously tight defence and MOM winning keeper were suddenly looking as easy to beat as my nephew's side would be against Arsenal's first XI.
Losing I can handle, and although I knew better than to think the game cheated (why would it, even if it could?), I felt that something was very wrong with the AI's ability to adapt. I don't mind it learning to deal with my tactics and players at all - it's realistic for managers to try to nullify threats while also keeping their own options open - but this isn't a battle of wits between bosses, it's something else, as nothing I tried had any effect.
Again as others have said, the ME is a huge problem area. I have had strikers in good form not bothering to go for crosses, watching them run out instead, and crosses themselves are a problem, as I have to set the wingers to 'cross often' for them to cross at all...and of course regardless of instructions they tend to overhit crosses or smack them into the box despite no one being there.

Ultimately, though, all the players complaining about these things can't be wrong. SI might say that it's a simulation, you have to do X, Y and Z, as a real manager would, but while I am all for accuracy in some respects, I really don't have the time (or inclination) to treat a computer game that seriously. A bit of thought, yes, but if I wanted the stresses and strains of actually managing, I'd get my badges and start earning the rewards. Plus, as has been said elsewhere, IRL there would be more interaction with players, telling them where they had gone wrong, what they needed to do to improve, etc. - things that would be too time-consuming and fiddly to include in FM.
I just hope that SI realize the strength of feeling surrounding this game and do it justice, if not...well, people might not take a punt on 09. As things stand, I won't. I told the missus that 08 would be the last version I got - though I said that about 06 and 07.
This time I fear I might not have been kidding. But we shall see what we shall see.

KDR
14-01-2008, 20:08
Sorry about long post, btw. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

hammersjj
15-01-2008, 02:18
A lot of people seem to be getting frustrated watching games. Defenders running in treacle, forwards shooting straight at the gk, players not going for crosses.
But the graphics are just a representation of events that have already been calculated. So if the match engine calculates a missed chance the graphics find a way to display that. The problem seems to be a two part one, first the game is calculating too many chances in some circumstances, second the unrealistic ways this is sometimes displayed. Once SI work out what is causing the first problem and adjust it the graphics part won't be so obvious.
Strikers shooting straight at GK's is nothing new it has always been in FM, it is just more noticable due to the large number of chances.

tmolvik
15-01-2008, 08:58
I think KDR has many valid points in his post, but as he also is mentioning, one gets to feel that SI isn't taking it to seriously. I especially recognize the feeling that no matter what you do, it won't affect the match result, as AI kind of has decided that it should win this game. If tactics should have the influence that it has right now, and I then mean that tactics beats ability and the AI-cracking of it, then at least it should a battle of tactics and not AI pre-calculations. Also "normal" tactics that doesn't has to be changed and tweaked all the time, must have it's value..

When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection.

Tony Dolby
15-01-2008, 09:10
Location: England
Registered: 06 October 2003[/quote]
Exactly - if you watch current day Man United, whoever is out wide, sat Ronaldo and Giggs, will push forward far enough to create a 4-2-4 in effect. However they also push back in the build up so it's not strictly a two man midfield, which would get eaten alive.
KDR
Amateur

Exactly. This system succeeds because they have the players to make it work.

The problem at the moment is that match engine allows AI managed Farsley Celtic to use it to devastating effect.

Also, the match engine has been tuned to make other super tactics less effective. In real life these 'super' tactics just do not exist.

T-Bag
15-01-2008, 09:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I have to agree with what a lot of others have said already. SI say this is the best version yet, and I would broadly go along with that. But it will only be seen as such by us, the players, if the issues that have been so well covered over the last few months get resolved.
I can't say that I have seen anyone caning sides in terms of shots 11 v. 11 in my game post-patch (but then I did go back to Beta 1), but what I have seen is the 'cracked tactics' issue, whereby my team who had previously lost two in eleven - and only four in twenty-five - suddenly couldn't find any space whatsoever, couldn't shoot, and even when defenders were goal-side, couldn't stop shots flying past the keeper from well outside the box.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's interesting you attribute this to your tactics being cracked. I have suffered the same thing for the last couple of versions but never put it down to that. I find that I always go on stupid runs on FM. It's like win 20 games in a row, lose 10 in a row, draw 10 in a row. There seems to be no sensible distribution of results sometimes. It is one of the many things which annoys me with it !

bytheway
15-01-2008, 09:51
sorry this has nothing to do with the post and i can;t start new threads so here it goes.

italy have just won Euro 2008 on my save. i get a new message on my news screen showing the European Championship Dream Team. nothing unusual until i take a proper look. the WHOLE starting 11 where Italian! WTF!!!

Biased voting if ya ask me.

cruyff14
15-01-2008, 10:14
this is the worst version yet its feels so rushed when you play it everything doesn't seem to glide smoothly for me the whole match day bit looks tacky I actually wonder if EA made this game it's that bad ?! I would normally just go play pro evo until that sorted the game out but that's just as bug ridden !

hammersjj
15-01-2008, 13:38
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The graphics are basically a movie of the game that the engine has worked out before it starts, if you make any changes (subs etc) the engine recalculates from that point on based on your change and generates a new movie. But if you and the opposition made no changes the result of the game is known before the graphical game starts. Just not known to you so the effect is the same.

JBC#1
15-01-2008, 13:48
i think some people are over reacting because tbh its still just a game ! (the old cliche http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) but no one at si should be meeting about how this is a shambles as i saw earlier because they are doing their best . yes the bugs are annoying and i am waiting for the patch to play the game in full intstead of messing around but until then i can wait . thanks

tmolvik
16-01-2008, 11:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hammersjj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The graphics are basically a movie of the game that the engine has worked out before it starts, if you make any changes (subs etc) the engine recalculates from that point on based on your change and generates a new movie. But if you and the opposition made no changes the result of the game is known before the graphical game starts. Just not known to you so the effect is the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the match is pre-calculated, and I'm sure the videos are also, but I felt that you were suggesting that the graphic display didn't take tactics into considerating. With that I mean, that even if you have crosses on "always" you won't necissarily see them in the graphic display, as its just creating som kind of random "scene" to present a highlight.. I guess I misunderstood then http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hammersjj
16-01-2008, 14:17
No sorry you have misunderstood a little, I wasn't referring to tactics at all really. I assume the game allows for tactics to effect the movie you see. The point I was trying to make was the shots/goals ratio problem seems to frustrate people because they have to watch a world class striker miss 10 chances a game.

Some people don't realize it is pre-calculated and think that the game you watch is unfolding before there eyes as it happens. So they think that if a striker with high finishing gets clean through he should score. In reality the game has worked out before he got through that this is a missed chance so at that instant in the movie his finishing rating really doesn't matter. This leads to frustration and complaint that the game doesn't work.

By the way nice opening post, quite a few people on these boards with English as their first language could learn a lot about how to go about things the right way from it.

CowRonaldo
16-01-2008, 16:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wizard:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So mate, you think FM2008 has a PA of 200 and CA of 78, but sadly stuck in a smallish club without much facility and coaches with only 3-4 stars ability... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I agree...100% http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a great comparison!!!!

Jablome
16-01-2008, 20:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hammersjj:
A lot of people seem to be getting frustrated watching games. Defenders running in treacle, forwards shooting straight at the gk, players not going for crosses.
But the graphics are just a representation of events that have already been calculated. So if the match engine calculates a missed chance the graphics find a way to display that. The problem seems to be a two part one, first the game is calculating too many chances in some circumstances, second the unrealistic ways this is sometimes displayed. Once SI work out what is causing the first problem and adjust it the graphics part won't be so obvious.
Strikers shooting straight at GK's is nothing new it has always been in FM, it is just more noticable due to the large number of chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. For me, watching the games is infuriating.

There are so many reasons especially,

The endless parade of 1v1's that don't score.

Corners that the defender up by the taker blocks (seemingly like in basketball) or that go straight out. Ug!

Basically, whether the match engine is good or not (and I think it is), the movie is not...yet.

So, it really detracts from the experience.

Mitja
17-01-2008, 05:16
complexity of ME and bringing new features/cosmetics to the game is reason, why we have "half made game", at the moment. in all aspects; tactics, traning, interaction, media, team talks, confidence... I can acept bugs in ME due to it's complexity, somehow but I can't accept new facegen technology instead of new training or tactics system.

do they need to re write the game or just bring this one to another step? hard to decide. all I know is that most of features didn't change much for some time now.

tactics for example. we have an army of sliders, team and individual, but we cannot say to to our player to come deep for the ball, for example or to stay back. that's basics in my opinoum. for years I'm trying to play my wingers more IRE like; to come deep to cut inside and I tried it all, but they still hold to their flank like some school boys and I'm yet to see free role working properly. why can't we say to our players to huge line or to cut inside? basics...

too many sliders; if I have my player to attacking mentality, that means I'm giving him space to make forward runs, right? why do I have to tick it again? changing individual mentality this year is a step back. now mentality means simply where the players is passing the ball- back, and holding it if you play him defensive. or kickin it up front every time on attacking. I'm a liitle exeduring but the point still stands. simplify things and you'll bring more complexity. for example what are now prefered moves could be tactical features...

training; all we have now is individual training system for improving attributes. it's ok but that is just one part of training. it would be nice to see some improvements like prepering for next match. you could set your tactics and then clikc prepere for next match. further you could set your team plan- when the game is egal, when you're loosing/wining. or maybe a feature when your strikers can't score. you should be able to tell your assistant to train hard on shooting, or maybe you'd like to employ off side trap, why not to have that option to work it out on training sessions... or an option to choose your place of preparing the team before world cup...

there are so many things I can come up with but these two areas are really important in football and would like to see improvemnet on that. together with interaction (board, players, staff, fans) and media.

Mitja
17-01-2008, 05:26
I forgot to mention....most of all what I would like to see is more human factor in the game. for example when the team scores players automaticly get more cautious, especialy in big and important matches. it freaks me out how some mid table team is playing like barca at the end of the matches, holding on to the ball like they have 11 messi's in the team. can't remeber ever to see some real pressure in the final minutes...

syimie
17-01-2008, 07:41
If i'm not mistaken...football manager is a simulation game...right?...so...what does simulation mean?

It means that the game should be as real as possible with the real world...real situation...30 shots on goal but only manage to get one goal!!!!

Is that real?????????

xouman
17-01-2008, 07:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
I forgot to mention....most of all what I would like to see is more human factor in the game. for example when the team scores players automaticly get more cautious, especialy in big and important matches. it freaks me out how some mid table team is playing like barca at the end of the matches, holding on to the ball like they have 11 messi's in the team. can't remeber ever to see some real pressure in the final minutes... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you in all potential changes, but also I can say that I'm enjoying fm2008 as I've do with all cm's and fm's I've played.

FM2009 with the changes you suggest would be great! (with board and transfers tweaks http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

Sir_Liam
17-01-2008, 08:03
I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.

On FM2007 players close down far to

Sir_Liam
17-01-2008, 08:03
I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.

On FM2007 players close down far too enthusias

Sir_Liam
17-01-2008, 11:58
Why those 2 have appeared over 2 hours after I posted it I don't know.

Here's the full post:

I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.



On FM2007 players close down far too enthusiastically, and generally appear to have very little positional sense. Off the ball movement is poorer as well, and then there's the way jumping is far too influential.



I agree with the op about the shots/goals ratio which is unrealistic. I think the reason this happens is because players do not anticipate situations very well. While on FM2007 they lacked positioning, they did read the game better and cover their opponents when a man got through. On FM2008 the opposite is the case with defenders sticking far too rigidly to the formation and instead of moving 5 yards to stop an opponent they let them waltz through and get a one on one chance.



This problem extends into the midfield where I have given up trying to create a flat defensive 4-4-2. This is because without a DM when the opposition attacks me their midfielders run riot with forward runs, and my midfielders who stick too rigidly to the formation just let them go all the time.



I've exploited these problems myself, playing an AMC in a 4-1-2-1-2 formation. The AI never once seemed to realise just how much room my AMC got and as a result he had a great season, despite not having the greatest finishing or creativity.



I've also been destroyed in a similar manner by a 4-3-2-1 formation. Hull, despite their being a lot of better sides reached the play-offs on my Leicester game and absolutely destroyed me with their lone striker and AMCs. If they played 4-4-2 they'd have never got near the play-offs, but they got there and because their formation was match engine friendly almost won them.



Another problem is the amount of points scored by teams. This problem has frustrated me the most in FM2008. Generally the required points to win a division on FM is 15-20 points fewer than in real life, except it seems when a human player is chasing the title or promotion.



I am not suggesting the AI cheats, as I do not believe that, but the last 2 seasons on FM2008 I've scored 90 and 92 points respectively and have finished 3rd on both occasions and lost the play-offs. I checked the other leagues and the champions in each had no more than 80 points. I checked 16 real life tables of 24 team divisions, and the most points any team finishing 3rd got was 85. Every team getting 90 points or above was promoted, generally by atleast 10 points, yet I failed 2 seasons running.



I remember a topic on FM2007 about a similar thing, which was dismissed by most, but I believe that on average the top teams score more points when there's a human team near the top.

Jablome
17-01-2008, 13:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
I can acept bugs in ME due to it's complexity, somehow but I can't accept new facegen technology instead of new training or tactics system.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great point. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

tmolvik
18-01-2008, 14:58
Good point for Sir Liam about the points for winning.. I never really have noticed that, although I must admit that I also get a feeling that the "scene" changes when a human team gets involved. Either it's in the top, bottom or just a regular match.

I also watched the Liverpool - Luton game on tuesday where Liverpool had 22 chances/SoG and Luton 0. In that match the commentaries where telling us how great an amount this was, and that it was an inredible amount.. Well this was a Premier League teams against a League 1. Still, in almost every Premier League game in FM I have between 20-30 shots/chances. It's just an example of how unrealistic this thing is, and I really really hope they fix it for the patch, without messing up the amount of goals or other things.

Mitja
19-01-2008, 04:52
tactical aspect is big problem right now, positionig especially. MCs are creating huge gaps. their defensive awereness would probablly fix many problems about too many chances. I hope SI are awere of that.

tmolvik
19-01-2008, 07:43
To be honest it's almost like i want them to cut the whole graphic display. Of course it will be a huge drawback, but at least you won't be bothered to see how obviously things are not working. With only commentary matchflow would be better, and maybe they even manage to make a decent match engine. The way it is now it is almost completely useless, as you never know wether to trust it or not.

gazcollo
19-01-2008, 10:41
I agree with nearly everything posted here....personally I never watch the games and rely only on the commentary as I feel it is far too complex for a computer game to try and re-create real football and can only ever lead to problems admittedly I may be missing out on a huge part of the game but I prefered it that way when I played on the old amiga and still do now....in every other version of this series I have never had a problem managing a team and getting beat a lot and not winning anything because in previous versions I have always been able to pin point what it is I am doing wrong and work towards rectifying it,but this version the tactics just seem to be guesswork e.g I have an Arsenal team and I use BIG D tactics and we are unstoppable however I have attempted to implement some tactical variations from a certain point in my saved game and the results fluctuate terribly.Using original tactic and we are unbeatable however if I get Fabregas to push a bit further forward even though his instructions remain the same sudeenly we leak goals all over and get turned over by the likes of Watford and Hull and suddenly are mediocre mid table team.....how can that be,the problem is when you are going horrendously wrong in your tactics there is nothing to indicate where you are going wrong and any changes you make could be making it worse for all you know.we need something that can point you in the right direction something like your ass man having an indicator bar or something as to how suitable your tactics are to the players in your squad......I could go on but I dont want a ridiculously long post that would put people off reading it but I think SI need to seriously go back to basics as at the moment the real fun has gone from the game,they need to go and look at why we all loved Championship Manager in the first place and why a huge number of us are dis-illusioned with it now....I get no satisfaction from making a tactics change and coming from 1-0 down to win 2-1 because usually I have no idea what I done

lawd
20-01-2008, 04:59
Nice to see this topic has not been sullied into a the debacle it usually does.

I completeley agree with what has been said here, and as many other posters have said (in relation to s/g ratio) it isn't that I'm not scoring enough, I'm creating too much. I would be much happier to see my team on average create around 10 chances a match give or take, say roughly half on target half off, and win maybe by one or two. But if I'm creating 30+ chances a game, and I have world class finishers then why do I either only win 1 or 2-0 or get beat 1-0 by a side who have converted their only chance?

The amount on 1v1's is ludicrous, How many times in real life would Henry, or Drogba, or Eto'o fluff 1 on 1's? If I get a 1 on 1 (which shouldn't be as often as I do) then surely my striker with 18 finishing, 17 composure, and 20 technique should be favorite against a keeper of any ability.

I love FM I really do, I have been playing for 10 years or so now and have enjoyed every aspect, from the joy of winning my first title, to the sore hands when you hit the wall in frustration.

But 8.0.1 is getting silly and I am enjoying it less and less, and as we are so often reminded that this is only a game, then my enjoyment should be paramount.

Excellent thread this I hope it gets a response.

Liquid Tension
20-01-2008, 10:10
What I wish most of all is that SI would stop making this a franchise type game that comes out every year like an EA Sports title and just concentrate on actually making a game and then releasing it when it's actually ready.

I accept that there is always going to be bugs in a game so complex as this and that's fine now that a new game is out every year, I am struggling to remember the last time I played a game that felt like it was complete. Sure they get patched, but there have always been big problems remaining and by the time I'm expecting a new patch to fix that, I know the guys have abandoned it in favour of the following years version. Like many people have already said, SI really need to actually fix the game they already have before they think about putting in new features. In all honesty the new features the last few years have been rather underwhelming anyway. They need to get back to basics, sort out the tactics so that the game feels more 'pick up and play' like it was in the CM days where I could just make a tactic and win 8/10 games with a good team without needing to be a tactial genius. It's not fun to have to tweak tactics before every match. Especially when nobody knows what their tweaking is even doing.

vagaswil
20-01-2008, 11:00
Great post, you've basicly summed up everthing i found frustrating with this new encarnation of what used to be the most addictive game ever. I love the part about the tactics, its spot on. FM08 did not last a month on my PC and i doubt the disc will see another trip out of the box. I have reverted back to FM07 and i doubt if i will bother purchasing FM09 unless when it comes out their is a hell a lot of people raving about it on these forums.

For me SI have been trying to hard since FM06.
Guys if it ain't broke don't fix it.

BenskiSullivanovich
20-01-2008, 12:58
Absolutey agree with the post.

I'm currently playing a game as Farsley Celtic and my squad is head and shoulders above any other team in League 2 (won promotion from BSP in year 1)

I'm top of the league but still I'm really not enjoying the game as much as I should be and it's down to several factors.

In my 20 or so games played so far this season I have had 20+ shots on goal in 90% of the games compared to 5 or 6 from my opponants yet I've still lost and drawn far too many games than should be reasonable - I have a striking partnership of Fabian Brandy & Raffaelle De Vita which as any FM player should now is rather a formidable attack in League 2 !!

Anyway I intend to analyse all the shots on target ratios etc etc at the end of the season and post my findings - wouldn't normally bother with such pedantry but I've just been signed off work for 3 months after suffering a rather sudden and unexpected brain haemorrage (not blaming it on SI by the way) and I'm gonna be bored out of my mind LOL.

I'm also going to count the amount of times the ball bounces off my rubber covered teflon gloved (with a handling stat of 18) goalkeeper straight into the path of my opponant.

Then I shall count the amount of long shots taken by my team alhough each and every player is set to not take them and also they have creative freedom set to 0.

Finally I shall take note of the amount of times an opponant with a Long Shot stat of less than 10 scores an absolute screamer.

I'm in agreement with SI because I do think this is the best game from the series, well potentially at least and I can honesly say I've not stopped playing it but I'm not going to looking forward to the next installment with as much enthusiasm unless SI can promise that they are taking their long and loyal customers a little more seriously than their profits next time around.

Anyway I better get back to good old Farsley Celtic and another night of frustration :-)

P.S - Just as the chap a few posts up sorry about the long post.

George Graham
20-01-2008, 15:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vagaswil:


For me SI have been trying to hard since FM06.
Guys if it ain't broke don't fix it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly.

It is broken in many areas where long term issues have been ignored (Eg transfer market, tactical interface, media/player interaction), and on top of that innovative features are very thin on the ground.

This series is stuck in a rut.

Phil930
20-01-2008, 17:37
Great post and I too am in agreement. We all find these games frustrating at times, especially those that have played since the real old days of Italia Manager or CM2.

Sure, you can't compare the games now to the oldies, which always seemed fun rather than simulations. Todays versions are superb, very detailed and realistic. My frustration comes with SI itself, and as 'George Graham' said above the fact they are stuck in a rut.

Meangingless features continue to be included when all we want is great CORE features; a good transfer system, detailed finances, tactics and a realistic but fun match engine. I wish they would build the game around the fundamentals again, and bring back the level of enjoyment for me of the CM 01/02 days.

I also wish SI would acknowledge issues with greater honesty, and stop rushing a game for yearly October time releases yet is a difficult and frustrating playing experience until the inevitable second patch in Feb.

Personally it's grown a little old for me now, and I prefer gaming that relaxes me, not agitates me. For FM09 I won't be buying until its fully patched and pending forum feedback.

Spagbol
20-01-2008, 18:06
I did find FM07 fun, I'd probably put it in the top three CM/FM games ever in fact.

The growing issue I have is that having tried three or four smaller leagues after flawed games in Ireland and Spain I've just found another fatal bug (in Malaysia this time). I really have no idea how this game was released.

As Phil930 and others have noted playing FM is no longer entertaining, it just grinds. Another thing I miss are the days when you could get through a seaosn in five hours. A lot of us don't have time to contribute 48 hours of real life play per season as we get older.

Powermonger
20-01-2008, 18:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
Hardly.

It is broken in many areas where long term issues have been ignored (Eg transfer market, tactical interface, media/player interaction), and on top of that innovative features are very thin on the ground.

This series is stuck in a rut. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It really makes you ask where all the development time is going.? Has SI spread themselves too thin with all the different versions they do at the cost of truly developing the series? Perhaps alot of work is going on in the background but us as users only see the front end, and despite the fact the default skin keeps getting perfected more and more, not much seems to change.

Other games that have sequels go through major design changes each release, granted they have longer development schedules, but with FM major changes seem to be non-existant even if you skip a release.

I guess as fans we get frustrated because we enjoy the game but want more from SI and feel comfortable that they are committed to progressing the series and willing to take risks. Minor changes are good and all but it is the innovative, major changes that drive interest.

Phil930
20-01-2008, 19:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spagbol:
I did find FM07 fun, I'd probably put it in the top three CM/FM games ever in fact.

The growing issue I have is that having tried three or four smaller leagues after flawed games in Ireland and Spain I've just found another fatal bug (in Malaysia this time). I really have no idea how this game was released.

As Phil930 and others have noted playing FM is no longer entertaining, it just grinds. Another thing I miss are the days when you could get through a seaosn in five hours. A lot of us don't have time to contribute 48 hours of real life play per season as we get older. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely agree; I'm one of those players who loves to progress through a season in one day. Personally, the aspects of the game I enjoy are winning games and signing players and accruing both as quickly as possible.

Other things like this annoy me when the AI play one another, and I quote:

"A close fought game at Anfield ended in a one sided result as Liverpool beat Arsenal 6-0".

Not so close then, eh?

Spagbol
21-01-2008, 02:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Completely agree; I'm one of those players who loves to progress through a season in one day. Personally, the aspects of the game I enjoy are winning games and signing players and accruing both as quickly as possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny, after all the changes and additions that people are sitting in concordance that the little things really haven't added anything except more bugs and making the game more work like and we all want a more simple, fun, addictive form of FM we can pick up and play.

Mitja
21-01-2008, 03:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spagbol:
I did find FM07 fun, I'd probably put it in the top three CM/FM games ever in fact.

The growing issue I have is that having tried three or four smaller leagues after flawed games in Ireland and Spain I've just found another fatal bug (in Malaysia this time). I really have no idea how this game was released.

As Phil930 and others have noted playing FM is no longer entertaining, it just grinds. Another thing I miss are the days when you could get through a seaosn in five hours. A lot of us don't have time to contribute 48 hours of real life play per season as we get older. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if I remember well many older and experinced players wanted this game to become more like simulation then "get through the season in 5 hours" game. and I believe that FM would loose it's fanbase then I surely don't want a game when I buy best players and pick them and win my games without any effort. that times have gone.

I think that SI choose this game to be as realistic as it can. and if it worked properly it would be fun.

Pearcey the legend
21-01-2008, 06:01
Have played every edition of CM/FM since 97/98 season so feel qualified to have an informed opinion on this.

Started in FM08 as Arsenal. My first friendly game was against Gretna and I put out a pretty much full strength starting 11.

Gretna shots - 5
Gretna shots on target - 5
Gretna goals - 2

Arsenal shots - 31
Arsenal shots on target - 19
Arsenal goals - 3

Okay, okay, I know I won. However, I couldn't recall coming across such a one-sided match in my time playing CM/FM and thought it was interesting that such a debate was happening on the forums re these types of issues.

I personally don't feel that much is wrong with this game. The 'magic' has probably gone, but the last time I felt it lingering in my loins was back in the 01/02 season. I agree with some other posters in that it would be good if the FM team could focus on ironing out the remaining quirks and annoyances. However, it will be difficult to justify this to the marketing dept. at Sega who need new features and attractions to promote the game to consumers. I think the appeal of the 97/98 and 01/02 versions (recognised classics) was that they felt really 'sorted' and the gaming experience was as nigh on good as it could be within the limits of the game version at that time.

Mitja
21-01-2008, 06:27
of course they need new features, but why? to attract newers to buy this game. but it's far worse if they loose their long term clients isn't it?

Phil930
21-01-2008, 11:15
Yes it is, and I think they currently are loosing there long term clients. I'm not sure on the demographic that buys this game, but just like in the game its a given that each year a new bunch of youth come through and buy into the FM series. They know no different from the fun loving old days. The magic is fading, its more chore like nowadays.

Maybe its all of us getting older and grumpier! What is a given is the big boss at Sega won't care about improving existing content; they will want new features to continue the evolution. If only more of them played the game. Personally, since SI split with Eidos (I believe) and paired with Sega things have only gone downhill from a gaming perspective.

Phil930
21-01-2008, 11:15
Yes it is, and I think they currently are loosing there long term clients. I'm not sure on the demographic that buys this game, but just like in the game its a given that each year a new bunch of youth come through and buy into the FM series. They know no different from the fun loving old days. The magic is fading, its more chore like nowadays.

Maybe its all of us getting older and grumpier! What is a given is the big boss at Sega won't care about improving existing content; they will want new features to continue the evolution. If only more of them played the game. Personally, since SI split with Eidos (I believe) and paired with Sega things have only gone downhill from a gaming perspective.

T4RG4
22-01-2008, 05:58
Personally - and I've no idea what goes on inside SI or the team makeup - I think they could do with getting a designer or two into the studio! The game appears to me at least, to be a classic case of group programmer design (Gets coat...)

FM07 is stable when patched, and good fun. FM08 added some really, really weak things IMO, many hyped up to be main features. I can still recall the moment of shock upon discovering what 'match-flow' actually meant feature wise http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif At the end of the day, to release a product and not to have solved enough issues to appease people on your forum (who often put effort into explaining what the problems are) is a bad show and seems to be happening with every release so much so that its expected to happen every single year.

I'm sure there are reasons for x,y,z happening but unless people on this forum are told of all the issues (never going to happen) then the moaning will continue. However, launching with a better product in the first place and patching competently and quickly (always the aim I'm sure) would go a long, long way to reducing complaints.

FM08 is not a bad game by any stretch of the imagination. I just didn't see anything worthwhile in moving from 07, and the skin/inbox split and match-flow put me off from day one. Reading the forums I see there are many other issues that'd annoy me so I don't even view 08 as an upgrade option at the moment. FM09 will hopefully upgrade some areas left untouched for many years (I haven't time to detail now) but with the current setup at SI and recent track record, I dont think this will happen.

Having said all that - the FM series is still the best on the market!!! Awesome http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It will not remain so forever though (but by that time major shareholders in SI will have sailed into the sunset http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

WJ
22-01-2008, 06:56
One of the best threads I have read in a while.

I agree with almost everything thas has been said here. I'm not going to repeat it all.

I just hope SI reads this.

xouman
22-01-2008, 07:31
Here we have one problem. Maybe we should do a poll: how many time would you like to spend to play a season? Some people want to play a season in a day, others prefer to go deeper and spend 10 times more time. I suppose that some features could be managed by assistant in a decent way, so people could concentrate in things that they truly enjoy (signing players, set tactics, talk with players and press...).

Making the game easier, with less tactic features would help new players, but experienced managers won't like it. I'm not saying that reducing sliders is bad, but using default tactics is not the correct way for many users, only an option.

George Graham
22-01-2008, 08:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
of course they need new features, but why? to attract newers to buy this game. but it's far worse if they loose their long term clients isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is but this series needs an injection of something fresh.

For so long FM has stood head and shoulders above its competitors, not so much in terms of features but because it just did things better and in a more realistic way.

Now looking at what the CM guys are doing I see a lot more effort on their parts to innovate, whereas SI seem to be steeped in the days of CM3 where we would get excited about a little touch here or there, or a new option.

I know we get told that SI have a relatively small team, but I wish that rather than small changes that are spread pretty thin over the whole of FM, that SI would focus on really transforming in a big way one area of the game.

I know that to make an impressive list of new features for the game is important, but really the sum of these new features isnt to the extent that you feel your playing anything other than slightly updated or tweaked version. Theres just nothing that ever takes this game forward in anything other than teeny-tiny steps.

I appreciate that there is plenty going on under the bonnet as such- but with FMs competitors (well CM anyway) gaining ground but adding more exciting and interesting features than SI are coming up with then there will be a risk that people will jump ship.

This player bought CM08 (my first CM since SI left) as something to play before the patch, and I was pleasantly surprised. Its not perfect and just as infuriating as FM at times but nowhere near the trainwreck of CM5.

SI beware- your competitors have fresher ideas than your currently giving us.

George Graham
22-01-2008, 09:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:
Here we have one problem. Maybe we should do a poll: how many time would you like to spend to play a season? Some people want to play a season in a day, others prefer to go deeper and spend 10 times more time. I suppose that some features could be managed by assistant in a decent way, so people could concentrate in things that they truly enjoy (signing players, set tactics, talk with players and press...).

Making the game easier, with less tactic features would help new players, but experienced managers won't like it. I'm not saying that reducing sliders is bad, but using default tactics is not the correct way for many users, only an option. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not about making the game easier in terms of the challenge, its about making the tactical side more intuitive and more akin to real life- whereas currently its all about beating FM, not beating real life tactical situations.

FM is currently challenging for all the wrong reasons.

22-01-2008, 10:01
First post, thought I'd just add that I agree with the topic starter. And imo this series has gotten far too complicated and intricate. It's taken all the fun out of it.

The last FM game release I "enjoyed" was FM2006...but to be honest I still prefer CM 03/04 to any of the newer releases.

UELLfan
22-01-2008, 11:18
Pleasantly pleased of how long discussion has been going over here without degenerating into inane rambling. Big thumbs up to every contributor here.

As for what's right and wrong in the game, I must agree that the main problem right now is that the MCs really don't perform that well defensively in a 442. A 451 improves it a bit, but it creates other issues.

However, the main problem with 08 is not the goal/shot ratio but rather the 'too many chances created'.

Really. It all goes down to the fact that too many chances are created. If those chances were cut before the oposition got into a position to make a shot, the game would improve a lot.

I'm also of those who take what is being shown in 2D with a pinch of salt, because I really do think that the engine sometimes can't represent what is happening behind the scenes (thus the clear cut chances missed, or the defenders making a step forward before starting to trail back after a long ball by the oposition). I'd also like to see the commentary inmatch improved. It's shocking how poor the game reads nowadays if you actually try to only use the commentary.

That being said, the game's got potential. Lots of it. Sort the excessive chances, sort the confidence module, sort the transfer module (the way the Artifitial Inteligence treats negotiation is beyond a joke)and you have a winner.

Heck, I've already put 11 seasons in it with all those niggling issues, imagine what I'll do when it gets sorted.

Mitja
22-01-2008, 14:53
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/8312051573

this is a thread on similar metter. mostly about tactical problems and match engine problems. it's in T&TT forum couse mods closed it here. I think it's interesting discussion and it should be in GQ forum. this my last reply from there:


Mitja
Amateur

Location: moan or not to moan?
Registered: 20 June 2004

Posted 22 January 2008 22:39 Hide PostReply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post

quote:
Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:
Yeah! If just put it simple, we need a better and much simpler way to give instructions. And some other 2 things:

1. The instructions for each player including the subs should be pre-set and we don't need to change the tactics everytime we bring a subsitute player onto the pitch. In a word, an efficient way to give multiple but clear tasks to your players.

2. Second thing is you should not be able to make drastic changes in your tactic. I mean, you cannot just pause the game if you're losing, and then go on the internet, download some weird winning tactic, and go back to the game to deploy the new tactic and then your team just play differently. It's not real. Players cannot play some unknown tactics if it is not tained through daily sessions. So after match begins managers should not be able to change tacitc drastically, they only can tweak something here and there.

3. The captain should play more influence on other players.

4. Irl you can see manager call some player to come close and tell him something. I don't think again manager can make too instructions at a time. Maybe he is just adding and modifying some duties of this player.

I don't know if i'm right but hope as long as everything is improving the game will be better and better with more and more realism.



your absoultly right. especiall about your point number 2. I mean it took years for Man utd to play the way they play, training and practising it in matches. all players are familiar with their roles and they don't change just like that. imagine what would happen if Cristiano should man mark opponent or not allowed to drible. to put this roles all together into one efficient machine isn't so simple. it's easy to play wider or at a little higher tempo and stuff like that. but you can't change a team of nobodys to play like Barca if you know what I mean.

gonzo7
22-01-2008, 14:56
This is supposed to be a constructive post, but, well here goes. Not sure this is the best place for this so sorry if its wrong.

Firstly, I have seen the problems that you are talking about and have at times been extremely frustrated with my strikers or their goalkeeper, depending on who's fault I deem the miss/save to be.

However, whilst I definetly do not want a 3d a match engine I feel the 2d engine does little to dispel the myths regarding the shots on goal/supergoally scenario. Perhaps its only me, but I find it particular hard to visualize what the strikers/goalkeepers are doing when the one on ones arise. Only a 3d engine would show this ie whether the striker is on balance on their favoured foot or whether the defender hounding the striker down is challenging for the ball at the moment the shot is taken. The 2d engine just shows players, shooting and goalkeepers, invariably saving shots, without the bigger background.

Perhaps with this, and, football being football, where on any given day any side can beat another. Besides many strikers into todays Premiership are not the greatest of finishers one on one, and goalkeepers are getting better. However, all this theorising doesn't prove/disprove whether this is a bug. Only those who code the game will know whether what I have mentioned affects one on ones or not.

Mitja
22-01-2008, 15:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gonzo7:
This is supposed to be a constructive post, but, well here goes. Not sure this is the best place for this so sorry if its wrong.

Firstly, I have seen the problems that you are talking about and have at times been extremely frustrated with my strikers or their goalkeeper, depending on who's fault I deem the miss/save to be.

However, whilst I definetly do not want a 3d a match engine I feel the 2d engine does little to dispel the myths regarding the shots on goal/supergoally scenario. Perhaps its only me, but I find it particular hard to visualize what the strikers/goalkeepers are doing when the one on ones arise. Only a 3d engine would show this ie whether the striker is on balance on their favoured foot or whether the defender hounding the striker down is challenging for the ball at the moment the shot is taken. The 2d engine just shows players, shooting and goalkeepers, invariably saving shots, without the bigger background.

Perhaps with this, and, football being football, where on any given day any side can beat another. Besides many strikers into todays Premiership are not the greatest of finishers one on one, and goalkeepers are getting better. However, all this theorising doesn't prove/disprove whether this is a bug. Only those who code the game will know whether what I have mentioned affects one on ones or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmmm.... you don't think 30+ shot per game and game after game isn't a problem/unrealistic/bug?

thanks god they don't score much becouse then we would have hockey scores all the time (7-5, 14-1...) http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

gonzo7
22-01-2008, 15:24
I never said there wasn't a bug or was a bug I just want to know whether or not the things that can't be seen on the 2D pitch are affecting the chances created. If they are then the problem is proportional far less.

Mitja
22-01-2008, 15:39
maybe you were defending ME becouse we can't actually see how good is the chance. I agree we can't, commentary should tell us more.

but there shouldn't be so many chanes in the 1st place.

Mitja
22-01-2008, 15:39
maybe you were defending ME becouse we can't actually see how good is the chance. I agree we can't, commentary should tell us more.

but there shouldn't be so many chanes in the 1st place.

fergusdacat7
22-01-2008, 16:51
To create 30+ chances numerous times in a season is a bit mad and if you think of it as chances in another sport then that's 90 pts if your 100% successful in basketball from 3pt range. Totally different sports but hopefully you'll ctach my drift.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 03:29
FORMATION;DEFENSIVE SHAPE AND MOVEMENT

defensive and attacking shapes of formations could actually be different. sometimes it's hard to say what formation the team is playing, IRE. due to free roles, unpredictable movements, tactical discipline, human factor and def/att shapes of formation.

as it is now, FM formation aspect is very old and will need to change. some other games are way ahead on this metter. (as I read, becouse I didn't play them, only PES). I think in FIFA you can choose defensive and attacking formation (4-5-1, 4-3-3; 4-4-2, 2-4-4). good solution but not perfect.

I think when defending, team is suposed to know it's formation. also it is important to stay in it and hold it. on the other hand when attacking the team needs to be unpredictable. it means that attacking shape isn't so defined, due to constant movement of players. of couse there are teams who play with more tactical discipline, more in shape so they can return easily to defensive formation/shape. but more dangerous it wants to be, more movement and risk is needed. both positioning and movement is maybe my biggest resentment to FM for years.

managers devote great attention to this metter. quick transformation from narrow and compact defensive shape to attacking positions. it's all about movement.



DEFENSIVE FORMATION/SHAPE


WHAT IS IT?

it's just the shape taken by players to defend when the ball isn't in posession.

4-4-2, 5-3-2, 4-1-4-1. any known formation.

important things are marking systems, defensive line, width, presing styles...



Football Manager:

when the formation is choosen you set both att/def shapes of it. this needs to be separated. in my opinoum you should be able to choose your defensive formation. attacking formation should be based on mentality, tactical discipline (how much you want your players to leave their postitions, given individualy) and movement of players.

my proof is that there are not 2 teams who play flat 4-4-2 exatcly the same. their defensive shapes are pretty much the same but attacking shapes are different. it would be much easier to me if I could draw, but I'll put it in numbers.

so 4-4-2 is defensive formation. attacking formation could be anything from 4-4-2, 2-4-4, 2-2-2-2-2, 2-4-2-2 any combination even 3-3-4 if you want. all this is a tendency depending on many factors (mentality, movement...)



ATTACKING TRANSORMATION


this is where things should change the most. I know we have arrows and barrows and sarrows. problem is that this kind of movement is too strict and not suficient. anyone who played old CMs remebers you could choose def/att positioning of your players in all 3 (was it even 5?) of the pitch (own area, centre and opponent area).

and that could be very interesting solution to the movement of players. so it's movement instead of only positioning as it was back then. you should be able to define your player's movement for each part of the field. with arrows. not just 1 arrow. it's smth like those arrows on PES, but for every part of the pitch. it's important becouse you might want your players to move diffrently in thier own half or near opponent goal. of course players shouldn't follow your movement instructions to blindly. so again it should be understanded more like tendency.

in this way we should be able to play our pacey right winger on the flank, triyng to cross or come into box. much like wingers play now on FM. let's say arrow(s) in the final third of the pitch would look like this:

l
l
l
M R
l
l
l

this should meen his mein movement is down the line. he should be allowed to come deeper for the ball or go forward. team mentality should define how often he should go forward.



I would like my right footed left winger to act like one. so I should be able to define his movement with arrows like this:


M L --&gt;
l
l
l

this means that his movement should be oriented toward more central positions (cutting inside) and that I want him to come deep more often. of course it doesn't meen that's he shouldn't get forward when apropriate.


mentality is very important factor. team mentality should define how much/ how often you want your players to go forward. tactical discipline (maybe better expression would be how much free role you give to a player, so free role slider) should define how often player leaves his defoult position and moves around.

hammersjj
23-01-2008, 03:40
For me the biggest thing missing in tactics is not being able to specify different formations for when you have the ball and when you don't. A 4-3-3 becomes 4-5-1 when your team doesn't have the ball sort of thing.

Again this is probably due to the way the game calculates in advance, if it had to recalculate the game on every possession change it would be a nightmare. But still it would be nice to have.

Patrick.Bateman
23-01-2008, 04:00
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tmolvik:
I am sure this post could have been posted as a response to any of the soon hundreds of shot/goal-ratio articles, ....QUOTE]

CM was not always better as the other football managers.

I can bust that myth, CM01 is today receiving a high cult value but it was not better than "Premier League Manager" or "The Manager".

There is not something as an AI that's cracking your tactic. That's a myth too.

IRL, Manchester United often play games with tones of changes and no goals.
And believe me it is as frustrating for their IRL players and manager as it is frustrating for you in FM.

Else Manchester would win every game with 3 or 4 goals. Sorry they don't.

Probably there are some bugs in FM or the match engine. Hey it's software! Software comes always with bugs, doesn't matter how much you test. Unless you write a BASIC program like:

10 PRINT "OFF MY CHEST"
20 GOTO 10

But that's not FM is looking like.

I played with different teams in different leagues and I win titles and championships. The matches feel realistic most of the time and sometimes I think "This is a very weird match".

But I have that feeling in reality as well.

So yes, there’s something with your tactic. Btw, I use a very simple standard tactics, nothing fancy at all.

Powermonger
23-01-2008, 04:11
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its not about making the game easier in terms of the challenge, its about making the tactical side more intuitive and more akin to real life- whereas currently its all about beating FM, not beating real life tactical situations.

FM is currently challenging for all the wrong reasons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's precisely the problem, the whole tactics/match engine is as far from intuitive as you can get and completely unfriendly to new users. FM is at the stage where there is too much reliance on past knowledge of the series, where it feels like the only way to succeed or come to understanding the tactical/match side of the game is to sink hours up hours of watching full matches and reading through a few years worth of tactical discussions. I don't find this fun or enjoyable.

Due to the direction the game is heading, with the preference for more complexity but the bullheaded reluctance to make tactics and the relationship with the match engine more easier to understand, I just keep feeling the series is going nowhere fast.

Jase1982
23-01-2008, 06:42
I just read this post and loved it!

Pretty much said what I was thinking....really bored of having something like 20 shots on target, to the oppositions 4, and losing 2-1...then their GK gets 10 and man of the match....reminds me of the old Championship Manager Euro leagues where the GK played such a pivitol part in whether your team win or loses.

FM08 was a massive waste of money as the changes incorporated don't represent value for money...I think for FM09 I'll wait to see what the feedback is prior to making a purchase.

One thing I would like them do is to remove the far too technical tactics setting for mentality, passing...etc etc...settings of 1 - 20 do not represent reality, as a setting of 6 or 7 probably determines whether you win the game or not...?! For passing it is especially nonsensical, move the cursor to short, or direct, but you can then have a different setting for short....thats like saying, we're playing short passing, but not quite as short as we could...to my mind, you play short passing....you play short passing...

I'm sure it's all been said before, and I hope SI really pull their finger out for the latest offering.

Patrick.Bateman
23-01-2008, 07:17
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 07:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, I believe there is a 3rd group of them also. those who don't watch their matches.

gonzo7
23-01-2008, 07:53
I reckon that theres 3 other types of FM players. One type who micro manage nearly every setting and the other type who macro manage by only doing the basic tactics. The third is those who fit somewhere in the middle.

I think I'm in the middle but over the years I've been moving more and more towards micro. I can no longer win by doing what I used to so I've had to change with the times.

Maccie
23-01-2008, 08:02
The game isn't terrible and I certainly believe that its something of an extreme reaction to discontinue playing the game because of the shots-to-goal ratio however the original post does make a lot of sense.

It is incredibly difficult to actually read the matches as you play them and therefore adjusting tactics is very also difficult. However if you have a decentish tactic, you can perform better by using more effective team talks. Check out out Wolfsongs post on Team Talks in the Tactics section - it helps!

Patrick.Bateman
23-01-2008, 08:16
What do people expect ?

A football manager with one single binary slider “Defending – Attacking” ?

When you select “Attacking” you’ll win with 3 – 0 minimum.

When selecting “Defending” you’ll win with 1 – 0.

What a great game!

Patrick.Bateman
23-01-2008, 08:22
Yesterday, I couldn’t avoid degradation.

And it felt good, ‘cause I knew I had the worse team of the league. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

reidisnuts
23-01-2008, 11:34
I've played the CM/FM series since the Amiga days and owned every single version, and I've always been of the opinion that the fun factor of the game has gradually been eroded over the years and sacrificed at the altar of 'realism'.

I first started to get peeved about it when the 'show interested players only' option was removed from the player search facility, and I've only really bought the last couple out of versions out of habbit and a longing for the old days, but FM2008 will definitely be the last version I buy, the balance towards 'realism' has gone too far. Football Manager, like footbal, should be a simple game, but its far from that now, and its no longer enjoyable.

The changes have been made in the name of realism (although frankly I'm not sure they are realistic - good teams don't change their tactics this much), but I don't want realism (or at least not too much) when I get home from work and turn on a computer game. My club (Sunderland) are drab and always will be in real life, so if I can't engage in a bit of Sunderland fantasy on FM, its lost its purpose for me.

Patrick.Bateman
23-01-2008, 11:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reidisnuts:
I've played the CM/FM series since the Amiga days and owned every single version, and I've always been of the opinion that the fun factor of the game has gradually been eroded over the years and sacrificed at the altar of 'realism'.

I first started to get peeved about it when the 'show interested players only' option was removed from the player search facility, and I've only really bought the last couple out of versions out of habbit and a longing for the old days, but FM2008 will definitely be the last version I buy, the balance towards 'realism' has gone too far. Football Manager, like footbal, should be a simple game, but its far from that now, and its no longer enjoyable.

The changes have been made in the name of realism (although frankly I'm not sure they are realistic - good teams don't change their tactics this much), but I don't want realism (or at least not too much) when I get home from work and turn on a computer game. My club (Sunderland) are drab and always will be in real life, so if I can't engage in a bit of Sunderland fantasy on FM, its lost its purpose for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that sometimes, some things are over the top, in the name of the ‘realism religion’.

They should carefully look at what is fun for us gamers and what not.

Sometimes you don’t have to follow reality else the game could not be enjoyable anymore as well.

And in some circumstances some smart modifications on the GUI and the flow of the game could do wonders, while they still maintain their level of realism.

I will never forget that one German football manager of 20 years ago, where you had to enter dozen invoices, do your taxes and VAT papers, inventory schemes and so on…
VERY realistic, but it felt like working and not gaming. No wonder that almost no one noticed the game http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

T4RG4
23-01-2008, 12:25
I think there are a load of things SI could add to progress the game without requiring every more micro-management on the players part.

For example - more text for special events (i.e. 'Is this his last game for X?' Differening pitch/edge of stadiums types so that playing against a big team in a CL final didnt look as though it was played at Halifax Towns ground, decent audio effects blah blah).

We get Matchflow, split inbox and hope for another patch. Nice one http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Okay, so I'm being overly harsh to highlight my point that SI are perhaps mucking about with features that are far from appealing to many people. FM06, for me at least, was amazing fun if a little easy. I'd love to see more detail in terms of game feedback and special events (to increase atmosphere) and to go slightly easier on the tactical tinkering, especially as it sounds as though that area is still borked.

Amen.

Chandaman
23-01-2008, 14:31
I can't add anything to this thread that I haven't said elsewhere, or has been already said in here. So, I agree.

On a personal note, I find it a little sad that SI seems to have become the Microsoft of sports simulations (if there's such a thing) in the sense that the common wisdom about their products is to "wait for the patch". It's a safe bet that many (if not most) of all new features added on each yearly iteration inevitably require a later patch to be fine-tuned, tuned or even work acceptably at all.

I'm honestly hard pressed to remember since CM4 (and possibly earlier, but my memory is not what it used to be) any new feature introduced that didn't require to be patched later on to be brought to more or less acceptable levels of functioning or performance. Makes me wonder (as a customer) just what development methodologies have been at play all these years for each yearly iteration to constantly fall short of expectations at launch. It's not my place to criticize, but I find it odd; while I'm not expecting for every single minute feature added to be working perfectly and never require further attention, that's a far cry from patches that apparently introduce fixes into everything because nothing was up to snuff.

I did not buy FM08 because I was disappointed, overall, with FM07. I wanted to wait and see. Get a feel for the reactions, here in this forum and elsewhere. I feel I made the correct decision, since the new features are largely cosmetic and borderline irrelevant, while deeply-seated, core problems with the franchise still remain without being addressed.

At this point I'm wishing SI would simply skip FM09, if it's going to be more and more of the same, and concentrate on a radical new redesign of FM; one that addresses the root problems and injects a lot more common sense into it, once and for all. But, the yearly iterations are probably a business decision that may or may not even be on SI's hand.

As a customer, I still retain the option of skipping FM09 myself, and looks like I probably will.

George Graham
23-01-2008, 15:13
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rubbish- when will people understand that seeing faults in the game is not necessarily linked to success or lack of?

From this players experience the shot ratio issue doesnt hinder success- it just means watching a match is very tedious, as even on key highlights you get to watch both human and AI teams miss chance after chance after chance.

djwilko6
23-01-2008, 16:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congratulations on being the first to flame/troll in this thread.

Powermonger
23-01-2008, 17:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's rubbish, we complain because we want to enjoy the game but each release it is making it increasingly difficult to do so.

As JReacher mentioned in another thread in T&TT, FM has gotten to the point where we almost feel like we have to be real life football managers, especially in terms of understanding the complex tactical system. This is suppose to be a game but tactically it feels more like work.

I understand there are a select few people who have the intuition to understand tactics and the match engine, but the majority of us don't so why FM has to keep catering for a small minority is beyond me.

magnoliadave
23-01-2008, 22:07
where have the days gone were you could adjust your tatics pick the team and sit back and enjoy the match. these days i need 14 diffrent tatics witch i need to change every five minutes before i have the correct one which never allows me to actually enjoy the match what so ever.

personally a larger pitch so the stg ratio is fixed. this enables the game to be played in the middle of the pitch insted of the six yard box i think that would sort loads of problems out and make the game much more enjoyable thats all it needs.

then theres the transfer sarga. your telling me that you make a bid offer the default wages then he accepts hes now your player is in any way realistic come on si stop thinking like a fan and be the manager

magnolia

Kriss
24-01-2008, 00:04
Although for obvious reasons SI will want to release each new FM with new features as marketing points, I have to agree that a period of consolidation, perfection and improvement of the existing features would be a shrewd move at this stage.

There's nothing more irritating than a feature which could work properly but doesn't.

With the release of FML and the attendant publicity there probably couldn't be a better time than now to quietly add some polish to the existing FM functionality.

xouman
24-01-2008, 00:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm performing quite well despite having a poor team, and I'm not moaning but admit that fm2008 has some problems with tactics. I adapted my tactics to the game, but those are not the tactics I would use IRL.

The game is the same if I won or if I lose, I know that if I lose is because my tactics are not well adapted to the game. Often is hard to know if my tactics are working well or could be highly improved, I'm quite useless reading matches in 2D and only know that I'm doing well because I'm winning with a bunch of useless players.

We are trying to give ideas and feedback to SI, although few people are blaming for their fustrations.

tieio
24-01-2008, 01:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an odd statement? Do you really enjoy winning 2-1 after outshooting a team 20-3 in almost every match? I win a lot and complain very little, but really, this is a valid bug, the most valid one I have seen in years.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 01:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's rubbish, we complain because we want to enjoy the game but each release it is making it increasingly difficult to do so.

As JReacher mentioned in another thread in T&TT, FM has gotten to the point where we almost feel like we have to be real life football managers, especially in terms of understanding the complex tactical system. This is suppose to be a game but tactically it feels more like work.

I understand there are a select few people who have the intuition to understand tactics and the match engine, but the majority of us don't so why FM has to keep catering for a small minority is beyond me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm not sure if even real life managers know so much about tactics as we FM players do. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tactical part if the game could so easily be simplfied. by doing that ME would also work more properly (if I understand those thing corectlly). just a example; which are the things that influence players moving forward now:

-team mentality
-player metality
-forward runs slider
-preffered moves (if player's got one)
-Creative freedom???
-off the ball, decision, work rate atribute
-stamina

probaly I forgot smth. all this ME has to calculate. don't tell me it couldn't be simplified.

Patrick.Bateman
24-01-2008, 01:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tieio:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:
There are 2 kinds of people:

• They who win matches in FM
• They who do not win matches in FM

The first group likes the game, however they are not blind for the shortcomings.

The second group does not like the game and can’t see the virtues of FM. Instead they moan on the forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an odd statement? Do you really enjoy winning 2-1 after outshooting a team 20-3 in almost every match? I win a lot and complain very little, but really, this is a valid bug, the most valid one I have seen in years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, I would not like it. But I don’t have such situations as well.

Oh, I admit sometimes I have these 20 chances and 0 goals situations.
It is happening 2 or 3 matches a year.

But sometimes I see such games IRL as well…

I don’t play with any fancy tactic.

Here’s my tactic:

http://members.lycos.nl/fm2008/Files/442.JPG

99% of the time I play like this. No player instructions.

And occasionally I change a little the team instructions:

• Playing wide, when the other team received a red card.
• Playing on counter when I’m the visitor and the other team is really good
• Time winning on high when I have to protect a small win
• Pressing on high, when the other team is short passing
• Tackling hard when the referee is a nice man.

This tactic works everywhere: Barcelona, Chelsea, Solihull Moors, AA Ghent, Napoli, LA Galaxy…

olrion
24-01-2008, 04:36
I thought I was the only one but it seems there are many people experiencing the same problems as me. I am close to turning FM2008 off for good.

I only have so much patience to watch my Spurs or Man Utd team batter a team for 90 minutes and lose to more clinical finishing. FM2008 has made me realise that actually Robert Earnshaw is more clinical than Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo put together!

I agree with many peoples comments about tactics, there is too much of a focus on this. Sure you should have to tinker with your tactics a little or what's the point in the game but I kept the exact tactic for 10 games in a row and I got mullered everytime! That would never happen to a top flight team in real life. It's about the players more than the tactic, if you have world class players then they will play well no matter what tactics you play....

Hopefully FM2009 will iron out these problems!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Saxo:
I also stopped playing FM. Too many silly little bugs both in the match engine and in the overall AI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

gonzo7
24-01-2008, 04:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by olrion:
I thought I was the only one but it seems there are many people experiencing the same problems as me. I am close to turning FM2008 off for good.

I only have so much patience to watch my Spurs or Man Utd team batter a team for 90 minutes and lose to more clinical finishing. FM2008 has made me realise that actually Robert Earnshaw is more clinical than Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo put together!

I agree with many peoples comments about tactics, there is too much of a focus on this. Sure you should have to tinker with your tactics a little or what's the point in the game but I kept the exact tactic for 10 games in a row and I got mullered everytime! That would never happen to a top flight team in real life. It's about the players more than the tactic, if you have world class players then they will play well no matter what tactics you play.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think theres a balance. Teams that lose 10 games in a row do not have world class players. If a team is underperforming its the managers job to put it right either through tactics or through personnal or both. As Portsmouth I didn't win for 6 games on the bounce, but following a minor tweak with my formation, which happened to be a player run, I won my next 8 matches. This included dispatching a Prem team in the League Cup, despite being a play-off hopeful in the Championship, with no world class players.

SiDolman
24-01-2008, 04:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Rubbish- when will people understand that seeing faults in the game is not necessarily linked to success or lack of?

From this players experience the shot ratio issue doesnt hinder success- it just means watching a match is very tedious, as even on key highlights you get to watch both human and AI teams miss chance after chance after chance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here here - in my opinion the game is too easy (for me anyway) but that doesn't mean i dont see countless faults which i spend too much time writing about on here

Chandaman
24-01-2008, 06:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As Portsmouth I didn't win for 6 games on the bounce, but following a minor tweak with my formation, which happened to be a player run, I won my next 8 matches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just terrible. Don't get me wrong, gonzo, I'm not berating you or anything. It's good that you found where the tweak in your tactic was. I'm saying it's terrible because if one player run is the difference between losing six and winning eight, that has as much to do with real life football as a pineapple pizza.

That's another thing many people are rightly dissatisfied with; the huge disconnect there can be many times between real, observable football and the match engine + tactics module. If to this disconnect we add the counter-intuitiveness of many of the tactical options, plus the excessive granularity of the sliders it's no wonder a lot of people are having problems.

The more time passes and the more I think of it, the more I'm convinced FM needs to be reset and rewritten at some point soon.

xouman
24-01-2008, 06:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gonzo7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by olrion:
I thought I was the only one but it seems there are many people experiencing the same problems as me. I am close to turning FM2008 off for good.

I only have so much patience to watch my Spurs or Man Utd team batter a team for 90 minutes and lose to more clinical finishing. FM2008 has made me realise that actually Robert Earnshaw is more clinical than Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo put together!

I agree with many peoples comments about tactics, there is too much of a focus on this. Sure you should have to tinker with your tactics a little or what's the point in the game but I kept the exact tactic for 10 games in a row and I got mullered everytime! That would never happen to a top flight team in real life. It's about the players more than the tactic, if you have world class players then they will play well no matter what tactics you play.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think theres a balance. Teams that lose 10 games in a row do not have world class players. If a team is underperforming its the managers job to put it right either through tactics or through personnal or both. As Portsmouth I didn't win for 6 games on the bounce, but following a minor tweak with my formation, which happened to be a player run, I won my next 8 matches. This included dispatching a Prem team in the League Cup, despite being a play-off hopeful in the Championship, with no world class players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


What about teams overperforming? I've promoted a team from under BSS, and brought it to EPL only with welsh players. I have most of the best welsh players in the world, but I still have lots of positions with players not good enough for EPL. Only 2 are stars for EPL, about 5 standard EPL, 3 decent EPL players and lots of championship quality players. For example I'm playing with a decent championship keeper, good championship LB and AMC. But still finished 3rd last season and board wants me to finish season in european places and challenge for title in 2 years.

I was in 18th position after 10 weeks, out of League Cup, lost charity, finished last in CL group stage 1. But after 12 weeks I'm already 7th (only have lost 1 and drawn 3 of my last 12 matches), and going ahead in welsh cup and FA cup. And it's just what board and fans expect from me despite having a bunch of uncapable boys.

I'm not a good tactician, neither I have best players, but play and train with coherence. Is this enough to success or ME is flawed?

Jase1982
24-01-2008, 06:27
bottom line is, which I can see has been forgotten, is that this is supposed to be a computer game....

I don't want to spend hours working on a tactic, which logically should work, only to have to switch that tactic around several times during the game....one of the tips from SI is to not change your tactic around too much, keeping it consistant, but I can't see how you can do that...for me it seems you need to change your tactic and formation every game you play...realism, but boring....I'm not a football manager, I understand the game, but I don't care for spending days researching my opponents only to be beaten by better finishing.

I just want to buy players, choose a tactic, stick a team out and watch a game of football as it proceeds...

CM03/04 used to be the best in that respect, I had 2 or 3 formations, which worked...a defensive formation, where the players would actually perform well in, an attacking formation and the formation I perfected against Newcastle, who always use 4-3-3...I counteracted that formation by using 5-3-2, but now it takes me an hour before I even play a league game.

Having said all that, it did take me several months to get the hang of Championship Manager, although I was young at the time...so I understand that patience is the key with this game and will endeavour to master it.

In quickening up the speed of the actual game, which used to be a massive gripe, I feel they have slowed the actual progression of the game itself by clogging it up with too much to do, in their search for "reality"...whatever that is?

Mitja
24-01-2008, 07:00
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chandaman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As Portsmouth I didn't win for 6 games on the bounce, but following a minor tweak with my formation, which happened to be a player run, I won my next 8 matches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just terrible. Don't get me wrong, gonzo, I'm not berating you or anything. It's good that you found where the tweak in your tactic was. I'm saying it's terrible because if one player run is the difference between losing six and winning eight, that has as much to do with real life football as a pineapple pizza.

That's another thing many people are rightly dissatisfied with; the huge disconnect there can be many times between real, observable football and the match engine + tactics module. If to this disconnect we add the counter-intuitiveness of many of the tactical options, plus the excessive granularity of the sliders it's no wonder a lot of people are having problems.

The more time passes and the more I think of it, the more I'm convinced FM needs to be reset and rewritten at some point soon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with. or those who are saying we must use defoult formations and tactics (defensive with no farrows normal with small and att with long) for better resoults. I mean, OK, but am I missing some basic football knowledge or what...

Smoothiebaloo
12-02-2008, 09:57
Yes, you are..