Board Confidence Problem

I've heard that this bug is still in the new patch. This is the only thing putting me off starting a new game. I like playing long term games, otherwise there is no point in playing the game I think.

I would love it if SI added a 'build' to sort this problem out. They did this with a previous FM because they thought the bug was too big to be delayed until a later patch. There's no doubt about it, it restricts what otherwise is a big improvement on the last version.

I've heard that this bug is still in the new patch. This is the only thing putting me off starting a new game. I like playing long term games, otherwise there is no point in playing the game I think.

I would love it if SI added a 'build' to sort this problem out. They did this with a previous FM because they thought the bug was too big to be delayed until a later patch. There's no doubt about it, it restricts what otherwise is a big improvement on the last version.

They don't see a problem with this feature.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Personally, I don't see problems with board confidence in the games that I've played, so I don't see what needs to be fixed. It seems to be a subjective issue. There was a bug in 8.00 whereby people could be sacked for reaching their achievements quickly, which was fixed for 8.01, but people have to remember that some boards are more harsh than others. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally, I think if people who buy and play the game see a problem with a feature, then there is a problem with the feature.

Not the other way round ..

But that's life.

There is no massive errors with the Board Confidence. The 8.0.0 - You'll get sacked if you complete your task ahead of schedule has been fixed. I've personally not had a problem with board confidence since the 8.0.1 patch, and I'm currently in 2028 in my game.

So you think getting sacked for not winning the Johnston's Paint Trophy, regardless of whatever else you win, upto and including the League title, is fine?

How can there not be a roblem. If you win the Premier League and Champions League, but fail to win the League Cup you are not offered a renewal to your contract. That would never happen irl. I thought SI were aiming to make FM as realistic as possible?

But they must recognise that there are definite bugs in the confidence system, such as in leagues such as the Irish and Scottish, where there are promotion/relegation play-offs overlapping leagues, if you lose a play-off final where promotion is the prize, the board thinks you have only just avoiding relegation. This is a definite bug and game-stopping.

Besides this, the other glaring issue I can see with it is when you take over a club mid-season but have to deal with the old manager's performance and have to live up to ridiculous expectations or be sacked after losing one game. There have been enough stories of this on the forum for it to surely warrant looking into and I know it has happened to me.

Other than that, the stuff with youngster signings being judged on a few sub appearances and stuff don't bother me as much as they don't have much of an impact but the other two are definitely game stoppers which I remain hopeful SI will look into. I'm currently second in the Scottish Second and I'm seriously thinking that if top spot starts falling out of reach I may need to throw games to finish fifth rather than risking losing in the play-offs and getting the boot because of the bug. It's that ridiculous!

I seriously feel these are the only two real problems with the game (besides Defoe and apparantly the Turkish situation, which I'm sure SI will sort out for re-release next week) and I am really hoping that if enough people group together to try to persuade SI to work into sorting it without just plain moaning, just requesting in as polite a manner as possible, they may look into it and release a final mini-patch.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GeorgieMc:

But they must recognise that there are definite bugs in the confidence system... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Miles doesn't. But then Miles patently doesn't know what he's talking about re: current game issues and certainly has nothing to do with the development or patching process. If he did, he'd not make inflammatory posts like he did on this subject, then sound off about not being condescending elsewhere on the forum.

Sorry Miles, you are wrong. There are very definate legitimate concerns and at least half a dozen people have been on the forum in the last 48 hrs starting or responding to threads relating to the Board Confidence system, specifically stating it is limiting their long term enjoyment of the game and (as above) clearly listing the issue/s.

Its not just about being sacked, its about the expectations and comments aswell. I won Newcastle's first trophy since 1969, the UEFA Cup beating Bayern in the final. The resulting message said they were happy but was basically a ho-hum type response telling me more was expected in future. Next season I won the FA Cup and same sort of message. Then I won the European Super Cup which I think we will agree is a pretty unimportant trophy, they went nuts I was basically a hero they would have had my children if they could!

Later in the game I got to the Final of the Carling Cup and won the Champions League. They were angry at my defeat in the Carling Cup final, no mention of winning the Champions League.

I don't mean to sound naggy or moany because as I say, asides from the two problems that I find in board confidence, I think it is the best game yet.

I jsut wanted to know, if enough people do post about the problem in the bugs problem, is there a chance of a mini-patch being made rectifying any problems, or is it simply too late now?

Miles how long can you keep brushing off problems and pretending they do not exist? You are losing peoples respect. Don't be surprised if FM09 bombs.

Miles how long can you keep brushing off problems and pretending they do not exist? You are losing peoples respect. Don't be surprised if FM09 bombs.

I'm not trying to be a fanboy but he isn't brushing them off, he's just saying he hasn't experienced the problems.

I think we are lucky that the makers of such a fantastic and world-famous game are willing to communciate with us about our problems on the game and I can imagine how frustrating it must be for the team when all they receive is criticism despite creating a market-leading game. If we get too critical we will lose this means of communicating with the team so even though some problems can be frustrating, it's important not to take things for granted.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

Miles how long can you keep brushing off problems and pretending they do not exist? You are losing peoples respect. Don't be surprised if FM09 bombs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what else you can call it? Given his comments about many problems not being real, this being the best version ever, it's hilarious really. I miss Darth Vaughan. He was so much better at forum prowling than Miles. At least he actually knew something!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I don't see where that is me brushing anything off. How can we possibly fix an issue we haven't seen?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FM 2008 - Bugs Forum

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FM 2008 - General Discussion

Search: "Board confidence bug"

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

I'm not sure what else you can call it? Given his comments about many problems not being real, this being the best version ever, it's hilarious really. I miss Darth Vaughan. He was so much better at forum prowling than Miles. At least he actually knew something! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its daft posts like this that may well stop memebrs of SI coming to the forums and communicating with us.

Its obvious there is a problem with the board confidence i agree, but your attitude isnt going to help anyone is it?

You can forgive some users attitude because we have received the final patch (unless there is a game crashing issues) and the board confidence still hasn't been fixed.

I haven't played enough of the new patch to notice this myself but from the amount of post there still clearly an issues.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunga99:

You can forgive some users attitude because we have received the final patch (unless there is a game crashing issues) and the board confidence still hasn't been fixed.

I haven't played enough of the new patch to notice this myself but from the amount of post there still clearly an issues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to disagree there Dunga. Like i said, there are problems with the board but if every frustrated individual came on here and started getting personal with members of SI then the forums would be a mess.

Anyway, this is going off topic so we will agree to disagree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

If you believe that there are issues, then the bugs forum is the place to go, with saved games. It would then get looked at." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me get this straight. What you are in fact saying is that if we can offer you proof that there are problems with confidence it will be looked into and fixed. If this is the case I'll take your word on this one.

Guys let's get to work and find Miles his proof. Remember to keep multiple saves so we can supply save games of before and after the bug or "feature".

With 8.0.1 as Arsenal I was expected to finish mid table and challenge for the league after 3 years. I won the league in the first year and the board are very dissapointed with my performance last season and expect me to make progress towards my long term goals. I never submitted it as a bug as there were so many other threads about it I figured it must be known about but this was with 8.0.1 not 8.0.0 If I see it again I'll submit it.

I did post a bug with an FTP upload that I was told would be looked at which was getting told I only narrowly avoided relegation from the Conference North last season even though last season I was in the Conference South and almost won promotion. That doesn't appear in the change notes.

Since 8.01 I've not had any real problems with my board.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

Seagulls Forever - I think I've been very clear in my 2 posts on the subject above. I haven't seen the problem personally in the games I have been playing. If others are, we need examples to have a look at, in the form of saved games.

I don't see where that is me brushing anything off. How can we possibly fix an issue we haven't seen?

Insulting me, and making wild sweeping statements is also uncalled for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point to the insults please. I don't see any. I am just fed up that you keep treating people like mushrooms.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

Seagulls Forever - I think I've been very clear in my 2 posts on the subject above. I haven't seen the problem personally in the games I have been playing. If others are, we need examples to have a look at, in the form of saved games.

I don't see where that is me brushing anything off. How can we possibly fix an issue we haven't seen?

Insulting me, and making wild sweeping statements is also uncalled for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point to the insults please. I don't see any. I am just fed up that you keep treating people like mushrooms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How in the world was what you were saying not insulting? Lol are you just bad at english or rude without knowing it? Or the other way around? I'll point to them for you if you want:

"You are losing peoples respect. Don't be surprised if FM09 bombs." - that was a sweeping statement AND an insulting one. First you're saying he isn't worthy of respect, putting a "worthless" token on him, then you insult his job, FM09 is the work of SI as well as being a game. They try to make it as best as they can and then you brush all that effort aside by condemning the game that hasn't even come out yet.

"Miles how long can you keep brushing off problems and pretending they do not exist?" - sweeping statement AND insulting (you're good at these) Insulting his judgment and putting a label on him when he has in fact been acknowledging problems and fixing them before.

"I'm not sure what else you can call it? Given his comments about many problems not being real, this being the best version ever, it's hilarious really. I miss Darth Vaughan. He was so much better at forum prowling than Miles. At least he actually knew something!" - De-valuing his opinion by receiving it as a joke. then insinuating that he doesn't know anything. Which is the same as calling him stupid.

and lastly

"Point to the insults please. I don't see any. I am just fed up that you keep treating people like mushrooms." - I don't know if this is you being stupid or smart. He thought they were insults because obviously he feels insulted by those insults. The lack of empathy here is another insult and pretending that those insults didn't exist insinuate that you believe that he is a pansy. And pansies suck. How do people treat mushrooms? I eat mine, I don't know what you do to yours. I could grow them I guess. Or feed them? Water them? Cook them? Pick them? I guess I could ignore them but then again I could just as easily ignore other things like worms or wombats, if I chose to. I could write them songs? Write songs about them?

English is a delicate language where a tone of voice can warp your words into something with a completely different meaning. Especially bluntness and insensitivity can be considered rude. If you meant to be mean, don't do it again. If you didn't know, well know you do. And you're welcome by the way. No need to thank me for my English-ritey-ness.

Back onto topic I've also had expectations to reach a certain stage or something in a cup but losing 1 or 2 rounds before the actual expectations have never caused the board to fire me as long as I did well in other aspects They were happy. Especially keeping the finance in the green they really love that. And signing bad players is horrible for the confidence, don't ever sign a player for the sake of it and not too many youth developmental players. Unless you can balance it out with good signings.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

Seagulls Forever - I think I've been very clear in my 2 posts on the subject above. I haven't seen the problem personally in the games I have been playing. If others are, we need examples to have a look at, in the form of saved games.

I don't see where that is me brushing anything off. How can we possibly fix an issue we haven't seen?

Insulting me, and making wild sweeping statements is also uncalled for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point to the insults please. I don't see any. I am just fed up that you keep treating people like mushrooms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im-ply

–verb (used with object), -plied, -ply·ing. 1. to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated: His words implied a lack of faith.

Take some of you own advice sunshine and check Dictionary.com.

Patronising ****. I'll take a guess that you've never heard the phrase "They treat us like mushrooms, keep us in the dark and feed us ********"?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

Patronising ****. I'll take a guess that you've never heard the phrase "They treat us like mushrooms, keep us in the dark and feed us ********"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, we used to use it all the time in the Forces. Is was used when we were told to jump on a helicopter but not know where we were going to be dropped off or other similar situation.

this has become pathetic, no need for people to insult each other really.

SI released a game which even with the bugs is cleary the best management game, they release pathes for it when they are perfectly withing thier rights not to and they also respond when people get bitter on start raving on a forum, again when they dont have to

if you dont like it don't buy the game, i'm sure there will still plenty of people who buy FM09

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> if you dont like it don't buy the game, i'm sure there will still plenty of people who buy FM09 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope SI think that way too There are ALOT of people unhappy with the game and if everyone who wasn't enjoying it, SI would lose, alot.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> SI released a game which even with the bugs is cleary the best management game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that makes it ok not to fix things? No, it doesn't. I think FM08 is a great game but the confidence is starting to kill it for me. I'm annoyed that Si haven't even tweaked it. I've bought every FM since it's release but Fm09 is the first that I won't be buying. If everyone did the same, SI wouldn't last very long.

BTW I'm not a moaner, I've been very patient with SI and stuck up for them alot in this forum but this issue really has annoyed me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I hope SI think that way too There are ALOT of people unhappy with the game and if everyone who wasn't enjoying it didn't buy FM09, SI would lose, alot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn it.

From my point of view (I know its of limited worth ) on the sidelines having not bought FM08 (some things I just didnt like in the demo and decided to stick with a working 07) it does look as though this is a valid bug/error that SI would have looked into. So, if some of the people complaining about it (beyond the normal moaners there are regulars here saying the same thing) are thought to be wrong by SI - what will happen?

Nothing? This isnt meant to be offensive SI, but how many people do you have internally testing the game and are they all experienced/managed by an experienced test team? Just wondering.

Because the same people on this forum bring up issues very quickly after using patches. There is nothing worse than having the feeling of 'will this game hold-up' when starting a long-term save.

I dont want to have to edit a data error and be wary of 'work arounds' to a patch released a few days ago for a game that came out a while back. It would be interesting to hear from the test team whom I'm sure would have a number of suggestions for improving the test plan going forward.

Maybe its just the release schedule pressure, I dunno. I'm here, you are there :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

Seagulls Forever - I think I've been very clear in my 2 posts on the subject above. I haven't seen the problem personally in the games I have been playing. If others are, we need examples to have a look at, in the form of saved games.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any chance of a comment here Miles?

I truly fail to see how you require a save game as according to Dave C the vast majority of my points were brought up in testing, meaning that either:

A/ you are calling Dave C a liar and are pleading ignorance.

B/ you are fully aware of the problems and have done little to remedy them.

If there has been some misunderstanding, and you ARE not aware of the limitations with board confidence, then i sincerly appologise. However asking for save games is not really needed as within any normal season the limitations of this feature are quicky made apparent.

NB: asking for save games before and after may be the reason you get so few people responding to your requests - i only keep a single current save.

If you want an example of the board claiming a player is an aberation despite having an average rating of 7.75 then i have that save to upload - just tell me how to upload it. Sorry if my posts come across as bad natured, i would quite gladly do anything to make this game better, and i applaud your efforts so far, i just think you've overlooked an important area.

Just read that thread and the initial post - kudos to putting in the effort to write it all Ched

there is a C/ Miles isnt best placed to comment on the testing issues.

Where is the QA Manager? I have a sneaky suspicion that he/she would admit board confidence is wonky. It may not be a bug (as its functioning as intended) but its been hastily designed and implemented

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T4RG4:

Just read that thread and the initial post - kudos to putting in the effort to write it all Ched

there is a C/ Miles isnt best placed to comment on the testing issues.

Where is the QA Manager? I have a sneaky suspicion that he/she would admit board confidence is wonky. It may not be a bug (as its functioning as intended) but its been hastily designed and implemented </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point, i concede that C could be the correct response, and if this is the case then i will again offer my appologies to miles.

I'd hope that if the answer was C then he wouldn't come on here telling people there isn't a problem though....

I am shocked that the current developer stance on this problem is that it doesn't exist. I've seen countless posts on the subject where players have achieved the boards long term expectations or even exceeded them within the time frame the board proposes and the boards reaction to this is to state that either the long term expectations were not met or that the player is making no effort to achieve their goals. Not to mention personal experience of the same.

As an example, of my likely final top flight game in 8.0.1 after a slow start as Newcastle I finally turned the club in to an all competition dominating side. Upon renewal of my contract for the 2nd time they set my long term goal as winning the league in the next two years. My contract was to last four years.

1st year I came 2nd, won the Champions League. 2nd year won the league, won the Champions League.

3rd year won the Champions League, came 2nd in the League.

4th year won the league once more.

Boards comment on my progress to achieving their long term expectations : The board is very disappointed that you appear to be making no real effort to achieving their long term goals.....

Excuse me?

Very well, I'll start a new season as Newcastle now once I have the new patch and proof you shall have. To state there is no problem as things stand is irresponsible

Thanks for the response,

a question though; some of the points i brought up i wouldn't quite classify as "bugs" - e.g. no consideration of the draw when commenting on cup progress, no option to play youth in league cup, etc. These are issues that i would certainly class as faults, but no save game is going to provide evidence for them.

I can elaborate on the examples i gave if they haven't crossed your mind (although in the linked thread i think i've explained them quite thoroughly) but i'm not sure every problem we've commented on can be supported by a saved game - or rather it would be supported by EVERY saved game.

Sorry if that isn't particularly clear, i do ramble on sometimes. I will be along to the bugs forum shortly to provide a saved game btw, as i think (ignoring turkey/defore problems) the board confidence is the only MAJOR issue i have with 8.0.2, most other areas are excellent, although it did take me a while to fix my 4-5-1.

Miles - Good on you for replying today, 'tis Saturday and all

30 testers (I guess from your explanation most are contracted) is not an insignificant team size. However, if this board expectation feature is indeed as harsh as a few people have suspected, I would imagine the test team would have logged it. If not, and it is as bad as some people have suggested, there is room for test improvements. If it was recorded as a problem (as noted elsewhere) then it was obviously waived.

I think you used to have select external people (perhaps some from the forum) testing things for you. Not sure why that changed (dodgy copies being released early?) but maybe that would catch some things that SI (well, you Miles ) claim not to have seen. Board Confidence is one.

Previously through a couple of versions it was the goalkeepers settings changing to that of an outfield player when making a sub mid-game. Through 06 and 07 (maybe 05 too but I dont recall) I've always had to manually reset the keeper to having keeper instructions whenever making a sub. A few people mentioned this yet SI said they'd never seen it. I'm amazed, because it happened all the time. Lo and behold it popped up in 08 demo, people mentioned it again and eventually, with some effort, it was found and fixed.

Yet I'm still suffering with it because I havent moved to '08... yet Absolutely loving 07.

well considering that it's been stated in the 8.0.2 patch thread that it could be the final one I'm assuming either it's considered that there is no problem with the boards confidence or that there are no plans to fix it if there is.

While you may not be denying it's existence in so many words the general response so far has been resistant to it's existence, no matter how many people post about problems. Yes, they're not posting their save games and I can see why that would make things difficult to fix, hence why I plan to start a game myself in order to provide some assistance to fixing what I see as a glaring and game ruining issue. But on the other hand I've yet to see SI acknowledge it as a problem anywhere, in opposition to such numerous complaints.

You can't fix it without solid data to analyse, fine, but at least take the step to acknowledge that it is a problem

In fairness there seems to be a misconception among patrons of this forum that Miles Jacobson is personally involved with the development of FM 2008, that he is the Boss Man and responsible for all goodness or lack of.

I get the impression he's just Miles Jacobson, a man who happens to work at S.I. but not on this project (as I seem to recall he said somewhere not long back) and as such you can't take his comments as being representative of the development approach and/or aknowledgement and resolution of issues.

Correct me if I am wrong Miles .. but aren't you just 'being on the forum' as opposed to 'being the official line from SI'?

If so, what he says he thinks and feels about the game isn't gospel. Its just how he thinks and feels about the game - opinion as subjective as mine.

All you can do really is start threads in the Bugs forum, with supporting evidence if prompted. Let them deal with it.

[off-topic conjecture]

The reason I think we're all getting so het up and hot under the collar is that there is a general concensus S.I. have their head in the sand when it comes to getting issues addressed.

Nobody likes to feel that they are effectively being ignored, most of us deal with it as we know from experience the nature of big business. However when it goes on and continues to be raised in new threads and posts in increasingly negative and aggressive terms, there is that temptation to unload both barrels at the next available employee that pops his head up.

This in turn makes them want to restructure the forum and feedback element of the site to remove that 'bad vibe' burrow deeper into their own marketing propoganda and it becomes a domino effect.

S.I. you need to seriously look at the structure of your testing and Q&A. It is simply letting too much slip through the net and sounds like a vast nonlithic network of people many of whom (having read their comments on this and other sites) claim to be reporting issues that are not being addressed pior to shipping.

We all blame them, and Si. The reality seems to be poor communication and a reluctance for the development teams to actually listen to criticism.

All sounds like typical corporate ****.

Same modus operandi that brings us hogs like Windows Vista. Its just the nature of the beast.

Other software houses have much much smaller teams and only have to release on one or at most two platforms at any given time. They aren't diversifying all over the place and frantically developing three or four or more different iterations of a title or theme in parallel on several different sites etc.

When you go from a single product line to that sort of business model quality always takes a nose dive.

It just so happens that the games industry has the least patient, most vocal and least tolerant target audience. Other companies have twigged that extensive public beta testing is a viable alternative to internal political minefields. Presumably it was decided this wouldn't work at S.I or they haven't cottoned on to the shift in the games industry in terms of product delivery, quality, timescales etc.

Or it isn't an issue, since Miles claims the company is recording healthy sales and solid growth.

*shrug

[/off-topic conjecture]

before I submit any save in the future could someone clarify for me what 'a challenger for the premier division' actually translates in to? In previous games 4th or 5th is apparently not good enough