Work rate dropping by one point - what's the cause?

I've had the odd player drop exactly 1.0 points worth of work rate in a month (or day?) in my last season or so. It's exactly one point (e.g. from 12.2 to 11.2) over the course of a single month on the training graph.

I assume there's something I've said (media? team talk?) that's causing this but does anyone know what it is and how to prevent this happening?

Did you have a private chat with him where you praised or criticised his match or training performances?

have a look at his training schedule. work rate is governed by the strength section. maybe you just need to move the sliders up a notch or 2

Did you have a private chat with him where you praised or criticised his match or training performances?

No, at least not with the first players this happened to.

have a look at his training schedule. work rate is governed by the strength section. maybe you just need to move the sliders up a notch or 2

I very much doubt this is training related (i.e. I'm 99.9% sure), because training doesn't make attributes change by exactly 1.0 per month, but is gradual. This is very much the same effect as disciplining a player and their aggression changing immediately by exactly 1 point.

*Bump*

anyone?

Some more info: I hardly ever talk to my players 1 to 1, so that's not the cause (and I've checked the history to be sure). I have made the odd comment on other managers and I do attend the press conferences myself and handle my own team talks.

The affected players have not had any concerns at the time of the loss.

I'm pretty sure it's a single action that incurs a fixed penalty of exactly 1 point to the work rate attribute (like with aggresion as I mentioned above). Has anyone else experienced this? Maybe we can narrow down the cause that way. It's obviously not that easy to know, because unless you check the players' profiles every time you do something, you won't notice exactly when the change occurs.

Well, I did not experience this issue.

Firstly, I think this is important to note that workrate is a tendency attribute, not a "how well" or "how good" type of attribute but a "how likely he will do something". For example agression is the tendency to get stuck in. So it is very likely that this attribute can evolve with context, fining can sometimes decrease player agression for example. Though another tendency attribute, flair, is somehow "tied" with technical attributes evolution. Workrate is the tendency to work his socks off during the whole game, mental drive to work hard.

IIRC Tutoring does not directly affects workrate so this can be ruled out.

So, time to make very wild guesses to help you find out...

Tutoring influences, among others, professionalism. Maybe workrate is somehow linked with it so it could influence indirectly workrate evolution? Like flair with the technical attributes....

Playing time. Maybe he is not playing enough and he is losing his drive to work...? Surely, it's more likely to affect natural fitness but who knows? Any lack of playing time? Is he match fit?

Fitness. You need stamina to handle such a willingness to work, and natural fitness to keep him in shape, maybe a bad condition as well. Could impact workarte maybe.

Injury. I highly doubt you'd miss that one, but just in case!

Jadeness End of season? Get tired and he is not willing to work that hard anymore.

Get bored Long time player who needs a new challenge? Did he request something like moving? How long have you been managing that guy?

Press conference. Go through all your answers in press conference at that time again and find out if some questions directly deal with him. Maybe the answers lie here but you would have noticed the "PR" thing after the press conference

Lack of praise - Motivation Surely, you have to be motivated and with an excellent morale to be willing to work hard, any bad teamtalks or porr "last 5 games ratings" resulting in a drop of morale?

Lack of discipline. I would work less hard if discipline is not that good. But you said he hasn't any concerns so could not be that as well

Pre match assistant feedback Did he notice anything like overconfidence or being cocky, link to morale as previously but in the other way! Maybe he is too "relaxed" to keep working hard, a very good run of form or a goal galore from him maybe?

That's all I can think of! Hope you figure that one out

My replies in bold...

Tutoring influences, among others, professionalism. Maybe workrate is somehow linked with it so it could influence indirectly workrate evolution? Like flair with the technical attributes....

Nope, this is definitely not related to training, and I doubt it is to tutoring (unless not being tutored means random attribute penalties get applied to players, which I doubt), but may well be linked to professionalism or whatever (i.e. in determining how players react to whatever causes this).

Playing time. Maybe he is not playing enough and he is losing his drive to work...? Surely, it's more likely to affect natural fitness but who knows? Any lack of playing time? Is he match fit?

No problems here with any of the players that I am aware of...

Fitness. You need stamina to handle such a willingness to work, and natural fitness to keep him in shape, maybe a bad condition as well. Could impact workarte maybe.

Nope, they're all fit and I severely doubt that one attribute will randomly make other attributes drop by one point. Wouldn't make much sense

Injury. I highly doubt you'd miss that one, but just in case!

Nope, I'd have figured that out myself, one of the first things I checked

Jadeness End of season? Get tired and he is not willing to work that hard anymore.

Nope, I rotate and never have issues with fitness (see also "are they playing enough?")

Get bored Long time player who needs a new challenge? Did he request something like moving? How long have you been managing that guy?

nope, although the players where I've noticed this are all relatively young - I'm playing LLM so my team is full or U21s and guys over 32. Been at the club a couple of seasons and are happy. In general, my vice-captain and I are very popular amongst the players.

Press conference. Go through all your answers in press conference at that time again and find out if some questions directly deal with him. Maybe the answers lie here but you would have noticed the "PR" thing after the press conference

This is a definite posibility, but I've no idea what I said. I do check the PR tags after each press conference, but that doesn't tell you whether an attribute has dropped of course.

One possibility might be that 2 players were affected by the press conference at the end of the year ("some players already seemed to be on their holidays") - although I only noticed the drop months later. Another latest player just dropped a point in mid-season.

Lack of praise - Motivation Surely, you have to be motivated and with an excellent morale to be willing to work hard, any bad teamtalks or poor "last 5 games ratings" resulting in a drop of morale?

Morale has never been an issue for my team (the only players with issues are those I've since sold ), but there's the possibility that a team talk might be to blame. I've just no idea which one or why. I doubt and hope this is not to do with a lack of praise in private chats - that would seem overly harsh to me, especially for gamers who find the whole interaction thing a bit gimmicky and don't use it (much).

Lack of discipline. I would work less hard if discipline is not that good. But you said he hasn't any concerns so could not be that as well

Unlikely, but possible. I normally discipline players for violent behaviour and silly sending offs, but I let one player get away with it because he's a talented youngsters with personality issues. This did lead to one player complaining about the lack of discipline (ironic, as he only just signed and is "banned for 4 Russian league games (sending off))". However the 2 sending offs for my youngster were both this season, not last season when player attributes also dropped towards the end of the season.

Pre match assistant feedback Did he notice anything like overconfidence or being cocky, link to morale as previously but in the other way! Maybe he is too "relaxed" to keep working hard, a very good run of form or a goal galore from him maybe?

Some players are overconfident every now and then, but not the ones whose work rate fell. But I do wonder if this is a sort of complacency (maybe to do with the wrong team talk).

I'll reiterate the following again though:

the change is exactly 1.0 points. It is therefore not like changes to abilities due to training. It is a sudden, one-off change by exactly 1 point, much like aggression can drop if you have players sent off and react to this. I therefore posit that this has a single, direct trigger and is caused by a single, isolated event. I would therefore immediately discount most things apart from press conferences, team talks (maybe??) and player interaction (not happened with these players).

That basically leaves press conferences (I'd love to know which option has this effect) or team talks (ditto); or, of course, something completely whacky that I haven't though of.

Have other stats gone up? Is it simply a case of him reaching his potential and needing to reorganise attributes?

Carlos Beck, 20 years old:

Femi Ingram, 20 years old:

Shaun Styles, 20 years old:

Notice how Ingram has two drops (May-Jun and Jan-Feb); Beck shares the May-Jun drop and Styles the Jan-Feb one. This to me suggests that it must be team talk/press conference related (as it effects several players at once).

As you can see, they still have potential to burn (well Styles might not have that much more, but he's definitely not yet peaked).

How have they been playing? Any poor performances? My best guess, apart from it being a natural accident, is failing to criticize them/put pressure on them for lazy or poor performances.

How are you getting the extra decimal point to show?

How are you getting the extra decimal point to show?

Not sure what you mean? In the graphs? Isn't that just the default way it works? I've downloaded a skin, but nothing else - and the default skin shows the same graphs...

If you mean how do I know it's 1.0 it's by looking at the graphs.

How have they been playing? Any poor performances? My best guess, apart from it being a natural accident, is failing to criticize them/put pressure on them for lazy or poor performances.

Styles is my best performer this season - a defender with 33 aps, 9 goals, 1 ast and 10 MOM.

We did have one under-par performance last month, a 5-2 drubbing at Bristol City (EPL team, we're CH) in the FA cup. One of my defenders got a 4.9 and I issued a formal warning (he's had performance issues before and spent a while in the reserves for his poor performances), and two others got under 6. Styles got a 6.1. Ingram didn't play (these are the two that dropped in January).

I'm pretty sure I was very unhappy with the guy with 4.9 in the team talk too. I don't think I was harsh with the overall team talk - we were massive underdogs, held our own stats-wise and 3 players scored 7.3 and above. The rest were 6.6-6.9.

The other slight disappointment was a 0-0 vs Swansea in the league. I told the team I expected a win, we dominated from start to finish, despite the aforementioned midfielder (Oliveri, the guy I've alluded to in a previous post) getting sent off after 56 minutes. I'm pretty sure I didn't rip into the team, as I thought they'd done OK and were probably a bit unlucky. As said before, I didn't discipline Olivieri as he's a stroppy little git and has just hit great form (was voted worst signing of the season last year but in January has now scored 6 goals, 10 assists and was twice MOM despite only being 18), so I didn't want to antagonise him.

Ingram was on loan until I recalled him on 20 Jan because he got tendonitis and is now out for 7 months - so his could be an injury thing I guess - but he's not the only guy with the drop, so I doubt it, and also doubt it happened on loan for this reason.

Press conferences (I've ignored all questions about opposition players, managers and those where I chose the neutral option that didn't seem likely candidates):

7/1 (Ingram not at club):

Has this defeat raised any questions in your mind about the performances of certain players?

There may be some changes, yes, but I don't think anything radical is necessary.

20/1 (Ingram possibly back at club - day he returned from loan):

Several players have spoken about the positive atmosphere...

They're happy and enjoying their football (not hard work and nebulous team spirit)

Then you must worry that any loss will have a calamitous effect on player confidence?

I don't think one loss can destroy this team's confidence.

Is there a danger that Crystal Palace might match Gloucester on Saturday.

It's going to be a struggle, but if we play well I think we'll come out on top.

Colin Olivieri (who got sent off the game before as I've mentioned) is a real crowd favourite. Do you think the supporter's backing will help him maintain his form?

There's always the risk it could lead to over-confidence.

30/1:

Last time out against Crystal Place your team played very well. You must be hoping the side carries that form into this next game?

Everybody knows that we have to keep working hard to put together a good sequence of results.

You have had a bit of a break recently. How do you see that affecting the players?

It might take a little while for the players to get that match sharpness back (after over confidence last game I wanted to nip that in the bud)

Alessandro Rosina's comments this week have suggested that there is a lack of discipline at the club. Will you be taking a firmer approach.

Any issues of internal discipline will stay internal, sorry. (I promised to improve in the private chat, and he was happy).

did you issue a warning or a fine for the 6.1 performance?

I guess you didn't as the "lack of discipline" would suggest you don't warn/fine for poor performances often enough...

and that is probably why the fall

did you issue a warning or a fine for the 6.1 performance?

I guess you didn't as the "lack of discipline" would suggest you don't warn/fine for poor performances often enough...

and that is probably why the fall

I guess it could be the case for Styles - but still wouldn't explain why Ingram lost a point too. I definitely didn't discipline Styles as he wasn't the worst player on the pitch and is otherwise on fire. For me it was just a case of him having a bad day at the office (against a much better team) in an otherwise storming season (and his first as a first team regular). I guess the other players might react nonetheless though if they think you're giving the players an easy ride. If it weren't the case that Ingram wasn't at the club at the time, I'd think you were on to something here and that it was to do with the 5-2 loss.

The lack of discipline question was because I didn't fine Olivieri for getting sent off (I normally will fine players but I made a singular exception here; the other exception over 7 seasons was when my captain got sent off 5 seasons ago in the 80-somethingth minute for saving a certain goal and thereby winning us the game, i.e. he took one for the team which is fine by me). The guy complaining (Rosina) only signed a week beforehand so I can understand that he thinks I'm lax. I guess the players might be reacting to this comment though, and that I should have been stricter. That said, Rosina got a PR happy about the conference this where this question came up.

I think you might be right about the drop in work rate to do with me being perceived me as a bit lax due to some comment I made - it would make sense after all.

You're not motivating them enough. Get off your arse and stop being lazy.

It may not be as bad (and probably isn't) as you fear.

Each attribute is actually rated out of 200 and then rounded to the nearest number.

So it could have been, for example, that your player was on 14.5 (which would appear as 15) work rate and it dropped by the 0.1 points needed to make it drop to 14.

Or maybe I should have read the rest of the thread

Is it necessary to warn/fine players for poor performances? I usually use the private chat when I see ratings of 6.5 and below.

Is it necessary to warn/fine players for poor performances? I usually use the private chat when I see ratings of 6.5 and below.

Warning/fining players for poor performance is all about squad discipline... if you let them get away with it they will do it all the more. When a player is complaining about the lack of discipline within a squad it isn't necessarily just about players being booked and/or sent off but about overall discipline within the squad. Players putting less effort into training, playing badly, in-fighting, complaining to the press and other unprofessional behaviour, etc will all upset other players.

I like to use the analogy of a school-teacher, if he doesn't set the boundaries right away the kids will walk all over him but if he lets them know what is acceptable and what isn't (and the relevant punishment) then they will respect him more and be less difficult to work with. The same applies to FM.. the manager is the teacher, the players are the pupils... let them know what is expected of them and what is unacceptable and they will respect you more and work harder for you.

Warning/fining players for poor performance is all about squad discipline... if you let them get away with it they will do it all the more. When a player is complaining about the lack of discipline within a squad it isn't necessarily just about players being booked and/or sent off but about overall discipline within the squad. Players putting less effort into training, playing badly, in-fighting, complaining to the press and other unprofessional behaviour, etc will all upset other players.

I like to use the analogy of a school-teacher, if he doesn't set the boundaries right away the kids will walk all over him but if he lets them know what is acceptable and what isn't (and the relevant punishment) then they will respect him more and be less difficult to work with. The same applies to FM.. the manager is the teacher, the players are the pupils... let them know what is expected of them and what is unacceptable and they will respect you more and work harder for you.

Thanks a lot for that. I've never had any of my players complaining about lack of discipline. But I have had one complain to his teammates about wanting a new contract and after he did it the second time, I sold him off.

So, it's okay to warn/fine players for match ratings of 6.5 and below or if the assistant reports x player failed to train in x category?

I like to use the analogy of a school-teacher, if he doesn't set the boundaries right away the kids will walk all over him but if he lets them know what is acceptable and what isn't (and the relevant punishment) then they will respect him more and be less difficult to work with. The same applies to FM.. the manager is the teacher, the players are the pupils... let them know what is expected of them and what is unacceptable and they will respect you more and work harder for you.

I think I might have figured it out now. I just realised last night that there was one more red card offence that I didn't lay down the law regarding. My vice captain, who's Mr. Clean (one yellow per season at 40+ games!) got sent off in the last game of last season (and only game of May). He was distraught the moment he got sent off (according to the commentary) and I said that "He really isn't that kind of player" in the press conference (which he really isn't). I suppose the attribute change is either the reaction to not fining the player or the reaction to the press conference questions about the player.

I also guess the other players see things simply in terms of black and white: you didn't fine him so you're a lax manager, rather than looking at the bigger picture. There's no attribute change related to me disciplining Olivieri for the first sending off of the season (Olivieri accepts his warning). This time Olivieri lost aggression instead.

Edit: Colin Olivieri, 18 years old, aggression drop:

So I guess you have to make the choice between losing 1 point of aggression on the player getting sent off, or losing work rate on other players. Is it only me who finds this a bit harsh? I had a striker who had disciplinary issues, but after I warned him a few times and his aggression plummeted, he was no longer the player he once was so I sold him. He simply no longer played with fire in his belly.

Edit: btw in terms of yellows/reds my team is usually one of the cleanest in the league - I'm no Jose.

Fines/Warnings affect determination and work-rate too if the player accepts they deserved them - "accepted without comment" doesn't seem to affect anything. If they don't think they deserve them I don't think it affects any attributes but could upset them or cause them to not like you.

@R.Hearn - I generally warn for 6.2 or less, fine for persistently poor or really bad performances (i.e. if a player gets a lot of low ratings in a short time or gets a really low - 5.5 or less - rating). The training thing is a bit more complicated, as they might do poor for other reasons (injury, age, condition, etc). For training issues I check their "training levels" graph if they are high then that is great, if they are low then I private chat them - I rarely warn or fine for poor training, a private chat seems to suffice