SI...please give North American customers the same game as the rest of the world

I understand the marketing reasons behind the brand name change to WWSM. I dont understand the software changes. Because of the software changes, many or most popular utilities wont work on WWSM.

SI, couldnt you please use WWSM on the cover but give us the same software as everyone else??

Please??

This gaming version of apartheid really isnt fair.

What is different about the game

only difference i've noticed is it's a pain to get a working save game editor for wsm, not even sure if there are any

Some of the coding in relation to file naming which doesnt allow FM utilities (especially the saved game editors) to work with WWSM. It was totally unnecessary for SI to change those file names.

Well I dont think SI really want you to use in game editors so they probably won't change anything for this reason. If anything, it should be down to the creators of those externals programs, no SI.

Originally posted by Neji:

Well I dont think SI really want you to use in game editors so they probably won't change anything for this reason. If anything, it should be down to the creators of those externals programs, no SI.

they have an editing forum on their official site

I never said they don't want us to edit at all, did I?

Originally posted by Neji:

Well I dont think SI really want you to use in game editors so they probably won't change anything for this reason. If anything, it should be down to the creators of those externals programs, no SI.

The larger question is: Is it really fair to make cosmetic game design changes that make it much harder for a portion of the customer base to take full advantage of all the game has to offer?

Originally posted by Bababui:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neji:

Well I dont think SI really want you to use in game editors so they probably won't change anything for this reason. If anything, it should be down to the creators of those externals programs, no SI.

The larger question is: Is it really fair to make cosmetic game design changes that make it much harder for a portion of the customer base to take full advantage of all the game has to offer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, yes. The game is intended to be played without any external editors/scouts (apart from data updates, obviously).

You get exactly the same game that the rest of the world gets. There is no difference.

The difference is that the people who make out of house modifiers don't seem to do them for WSM. This is not SI being awkward or victimising WSM players. Some things, such as naming, licensning and language issues need to change for the American market.

It is unfortunate, but the blame here does not and should not lie with SI, since SI do not make the things you wish to use.

I would have to disagree with you Neji. If SI didnt want these mods to be applied to their game they wouldnt:

1)Host a forum on their website for modders/editors

2)They would design the game so that it couldnt be edited

Originally posted by Wazzerphuk:

You get exactly the same game that the rest of the world gets. There is no difference.

The difference is that the people who make out of house modifiers don't seem to do them for WSM. This is not SI being awkward or victimising WSM players. Some things, such as naming, licensning and language issues need to change for the American market.

It is unfortunate, but the blame here does not and should not lie with SI, since SI do not make the things you wish to use.

I would disagree.

The reason that people dont do them for WWSM is that some of the coding/naming is different than in FM. And this difference is strictly cosmetic.

Its absolutely SI's fault. They can call the game whatever they want and still offer the exact same game as FM.

Originally posted by Bababui:

Its absolutely SI's fault. They can call the game whatever they want and still offer the exact same game as FM.

Absolute nonsense. The changes are purely cosmetic, yes. But they are cosmetic changes that have been integrated for a reason. They have to be there. Your anger should be pointed at those making the extra applications: after all, since the changes are only cosmetic it would only take an extra few minutes to code in the cosmetic differences to allow the application to handle both FM and WSM. This is not SI's fault that people have not done this.

1)Host a forum on their website for modders/editors

2)They would design the game so that it couldnt be edited

I said they probably dont want their players to use external in-game utilities.

They offer a pre-game editor so that you can keep your game upto date. Thats good of them. Alot of devs don't bother giving you anything to mod the game.

In-game editors are different. They are widely used to cheat. Most companies don't want players to cheat - new PC games even check periodically for any external trainers tying to access the game. Si probably want the game to played how it is meant to be played.

Your problem is with the people who make these external programs.

Originally posted by Wazzerphuk:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bababui:

Its absolutely SI's fault. They can call the game whatever they want and still offer the exact same game as FM.

Absolute nonsense. The changes are purely cosmetic, yes. But they are cosmetic changes that have been integrated for a reason. They have to be there. Your anger should be pointed at those making the extra applications: after all, since the changes are only cosmetic it would only take an extra few minutes to code in the cosmetic differences to allow the application to handle both FM and WSM. This is not SI's fault that people have not done this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

These changes dont have to be there. In fact, it was an a poor decision to decide to rename folders. Some modders do go the extra mile. But why should they have to?

I understand that you want to support and protect SI. I agree with you there. But no one or no entity is perfect. And perhaps SI will realize that they could both have the marketing advantage of the rename without having to altar the product..(which would also save them money on the extra coding).

Originally posted by Neji:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 1)Host a forum on their website for modders/editors

2)They would design the game so that it couldnt be edited

I said they probably dont want their players to use external in-game utilities.

They offer a pre-game editor so that you can keep your game upto date. Thats good of them. Alot of devs don't bother giving you anything to mod the game.

In-game editors are different. They are widely used to cheat. Most companies don't want players to cheat - new PC games even check periodically for any external trainers tying to access the game. Si probably want the game to played how it is meant to be played.

Your problem is with the people who make these external programs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then I am guessing that you are calling for a software change that would make it very difficult to in game edit and a ban for anyone asking for or offering these utilities?

Both FFM and geniescout work for WWSM, how many more do you need?

So then I am guessing that you are calling for a software change that would make it very difficult to in game edit and a ban for anyone asking for or offering these utilities?

You're just like the media! Take what I said and twist it. I'm not asking for that sort of change at all, but why should Si go out of their way to offer you the chance to cheat? Thats why they take out the debug mode, so you can't use it to cheat!

Originally posted by nogravy:

Both FFM and geniescout work for WWSM, how many more do you need?

Do you have a link for FFM that would work with WWSM 702?

Originally posted by Neji:

You're just like the media! Take what I said and twist it. I'm not asking for that sort of change at all, but why should Si go out of their way to offer you the chance to cheat? Thats why they take out the debug mode, so you can't use it to cheat!

You have it backwards. SI go out of their way to make WWSM. It would be easier and cheaper to just repackage FM. But their extra and really unnecessary work make it harder for the North American market to have the same access to the modder goodies.

FMM 2.25, link is in Editors forum less than half the way down the page.

BTW Neji

Saved game editors are used for more than cheating. They can correct mistakes in the game without having to abandon a favorite game. And they allow you to change kit colors to something more pleasing to the user. And when for example Portsmouth announce their new stadium, a saved game editor will allow it to be in an existing game.

You have it backwards. SI go out of their way to make WWSM.

Changing that makes them more sales?! Modders don't. There must be a reason they change certian things. It's not like Si sit down and say 'Hmmm, the North American customers should have no option to cheat. Lets change stuff so they can't'.

And when for example Portsmouth announce their new stadium, a saved game editor will allow it to be in an existing game.

I very much doubt that. I did say that editors are widely used to cheat. I know that some people use them for other things but the majority don't.

Originally posted by Neji:

FMM 2.25, link is in Editors forum less than half the way down the page.

Thats for 802. I need one for 702.

Originally posted by Neji:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You have it backwards. SI go out of their way to make WWSM.

Changing that makes them more sales?! Modders don't. There must be a reason they change certian things. It's not like Si sit down and say 'Hmmm, the North American customers should have no option to cheat. Lets change stuff so they can't'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They call it WWSM over here because they think people will confuse it with an NFL game. Like they wouldnt notice the soccer ball on the cover.

Originally posted by Bababui:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neji:

FMM 2.25, link is in Editors forum less than half the way down the page.

Thats for 802. I need one for 702. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My bad, Try this link. FMM 2.12.

702? You seriously titled your post "please give North American customers..."? This might have been an understandable request in June of 2007, but it's 2008 now and SI has given us the same game(or close enough for the modders), it's called WWSM 08. I can appreciate you wanting an editor for 07, but just ask for an editor for 07.

Originally posted by Bababui:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neji:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You have it backwards. SI go out of their way to make WWSM.

Changing that makes them more sales?! Modders don't. There must be a reason they change certian things. It's not like Si sit down and say 'Hmmm, the North American customers should have no option to cheat. Lets change stuff so they can't'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They call it WWSM over here because they think people will confuse it with an NFL game. Like they wouldnt notice the soccer ball on the cover. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would turn the whole thing the other way round and ask:

Why would SI make more work for themselves if - as you assert (and I'd love to know how you know) - it was completely unnecessary?

Originally posted by Neji:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bababui:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neji:

FMM 2.25, link is in Editors forum less than half the way down the page.

Thats for 802. I need one for 702. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My bad, Try this link. FMM 2.12. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. Am giving it a try.

Originally posted by Bababui:

Some of the coding in relation to file naming which doesnt allow FM utilities (especially the saved game editors) to work with WWSM. It was totally unnecessary for SI to change those file names.

Because I could easily find the mod for FM2007 and I prefer to get to the heart of the matter. I strongly disagree with the SI policy on WWSM.

Originally posted by Bababui:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bababui:

Some of the coding in relation to file naming which doesnt allow FM utilities (especially the saved game editors) to work with WWSM. It was totally unnecessary for SI to change those file names.

Because I could easily find the mod for FM2007 and I prefer to get to the heart of the matter. I strongly disagree with the SI policy on WWSM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure it's SI's 'policy' and not SEGA's?

Please do not take this as me being rude or a smartass but if you do not like the way they handle WWSM, why not just buy the game from a England dealer and have it shipped to you in the mail??

Again I am not trying to be rude or anything, just a suggestion

I believe the reason why the usual editors for Football Manager won't work for Worldwide Soccer Manager due to how software is compiled. A small change in the code - in this case, the software name, which is likely to be inside the actual game code itself - leads to a large change in the actual program and the memory locations of things can change. Editors act as game "trainers" if you've heard of them before and rely purely on memory location grabbing, and since WWSM's players are likely to be located at a different memory location due to the different machine code, it means the editors will not work.

SI is here to make money and marketing a football game as "football" within America is a bad idea. Just as European games must adapt themselves to the Japanese market (name changes, less violence, etc.) and vice-versa. Calling a football game "football" in America can mislead people and thus hurt SI - why would they want that?

Originally posted by Bababui:

This gaming version of apartheid really isnt fair.

and the award for the biggest hyperbole in the history of these forums goes to.....

Originally posted by TopToffee:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bababui:

This gaming version of apartheid really isnt fair.

and the award for the biggest hyperbole in the history of these forums goes to..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive always wanted to win an award.

Originally posted by rocky0:

Please do not take this as me being rude or a smartass but if you do not like the way they handle WWSM, why not just buy the game from a England dealer and have it shipped to you in the mail??

Again I am not trying to be rude or anything, just a suggestion

I would but its considerably more expensive.

Originally posted by x42bn6:

I believe the reason why the usual editors for Football Manager won't work for Worldwide Soccer Manager due to how software is compiled. A small change in the code - in this case, the software name, which is likely to be inside the actual game code itself - leads to a large change in the actual program and the memory locations of things can change. Editors act as game "trainers" if you've heard of them before and rely purely on memory location grabbing, and since WWSM's players are likely to be located at a different memory location due to the different machine code, it means the editors will not work.

SI is here to make money and marketing a football game as "football" within America is a bad idea. Just as European games must adapt themselves to the Japanese market (name changes, less violence, etc.) and vice-versa. Calling a football game "football" in America can mislead people and thus hurt SI - why would they want that?

Im fine with the WWSM moniker but I wonder why they cant just slap the WWSM on the cover of the box and the disc itself but leave the coding and files as they are in FM?

Originally posted by Bababui:

Im fine with the WWSM moniker but I wonder why they cant just slap the WWSM on the cover of the box and the disc itself but leave the coding and files as they are in FM?

Couldn't agree more. Why not keep the WWSM box, put a WWSM silkscreen on the disc, and leave the rest in tact? I have not had any compatability problems with any utilities out there, but I really don't think it'll hurt sales in the slightest. To its'credit, it would have the added benefit of

1) requiring one code base.

2) require one patch for everyone,

3) guarantee compatability for everyone, and

4) educate us ignorant Americans that the vast majority of the world (S. Africa and Canada notwithstanding) refers to it as football.

Oh, yeah, this would save a bit of money and time for SI as well.

buy the FM off ebay... it will solve your problems

Or buy the Digital Download version.

fm genie scout does work with 8.02 for what it's worth, know you were interested in an earlier version though. tested it last night after not thinking it would, pleasant surprise

Originally posted by Bababui:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x42bn6:

I believe the reason why the usual editors for Football Manager won't work for Worldwide Soccer Manager due to how software is compiled. A small change in the code - in this case, the software name, which is likely to be inside the actual game code itself - leads to a large change in the actual program and the memory locations of things can change. Editors act as game "trainers" if you've heard of them before and rely purely on memory location grabbing, and since WWSM's players are likely to be located at a different memory location due to the different machine code, it means the editors will not work.

SI is here to make money and marketing a football game as "football" within America is a bad idea. Just as European games must adapt themselves to the Japanese market (name changes, less violence, etc.) and vice-versa. Calling a football game "football" in America can mislead people and thus hurt SI - why would they want that?

Im fine with the WWSM moniker but I wonder why they cant just slap the WWSM on the cover of the box and the disc itself but leave the coding and files as they are in FM? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Because wouldn't it be misleading to have WWSM on the cover, and FM on the first screen you see?

Crimguy:

1) I would not be surprised if the code is the same, in the sense that the algorithms are the same. What differs is "FM" and "WWSM". The Avalance Effect also applies to software code - because compilers have such high levels of optimisation, even changing one string to another can result in a very different memory mapping, especially as the length of WWSM unabbreviated is much longer than FM unabbreviated.

2) SI can write patches for various bits of software, and I think they're happy to do so.

3) Agreed.

4) That's not SI's duty, and they will certainly deliberately not hurt their own sales by labelling football games as football in the US. Plus, in America, calling football soccer seems to work for them - why fix what's not broken?

It's misleading to say it will save SI money. Yes it will save them money, but they will not get as much money in the US by calling it FM, and I daresay that this far outstrips any further costs of maintenance.