Poachers!

I just came across this awesome post on The Dugout forum by Guido, which I am quoting below. Here is the link - http://www.thedugout.net/community/showpost.php?p=2580497&postcount=4

Everyone knows strikers like Filippo Inzaghi, Gerd Muller, Romario, Gabriel Batistuta, Cristian Vieri, Klaas-Jan Huntelaar, Hugo Sanchez and Michael Owen. They are all born goal-scorers with a similar playing-style.

They are goal poachers who tend to stay forward at all times and work in and around the penalty area to snatch goals. These players are known for their positional sense, predatory instincts, excellent reflexes and finishing ability.

These men have almost predator-like instincts, stalking a defence until it slips up and pouncing on every opportunity. He’s what the British would call a fox-in-the-box, the sort of striker who plies his trade based on intelligence and plies it well, scoring many goals.

These men have the ability to remain patient and focused throughout a match. They know a defence will slip up once during ninety minutes and when they do, they will be ready for it, ready to punish the defence for their moment of weakness.

These players are constantly playing on the edge, playing on the shoulder of the last defender. They tend to get caught off-side quite a bit, but when they’re through, they will put the ball away.

If I could name one weakness in the typical style of the fox-in-the-box, it’s not even one he can be held accountable for. He’s relying on service. Players like Batistuta, Huntelaar and Inzaghi are not the kind of striker to create their own chances, like say a Zlatan Ibrahimovic. These guys need that good cross or brilliant through-ball to score his goals, so when his team-mates don’t deliver, neither can they.

Looking at the stats that are vital for this striker, I want to start out with the mental stats. There is no intuition stat to reflect the predatory instinct of the fox-in-the-box, but a combination of different mental stats gives you a proper idea of what it should look like.

First of all, you need this player to have composure. It’s pretty logical when you think about it. When this striker appears all alone in front of the keeper, he needs to keep his cool and just finish the chance he has been given. Composure ensures that he does.

We also want a player with flair. He must be able to do the unexpected. Can he do things that will surprise a defence? Flair determines a player’s ability to do just that.

Regarding their ability to find the space behind the defence, we must look towards attributes like anticipation and off the ball. Can a player read the game and anticipate on situations by positioning himself well?

You also don’t want your fox to dally or dwell on the ball. This gives a defence time to recover, which is exactly what we don’t want happening. A high stat for decisions is therefore important. A player needs to make a decision in a split-second and act upon it.

Technical attributes are less important, as there are only two really important technical attributes for a fox-in-the-box. Because these players have to operate in a tight space, it is absolutely vital that their technique and first touch is superb. If he can’t control the ball properly in a tight space, he won’t be able to function properly.

Last but not least we have a look at the physical stats. Basically, pace and acceleration are the most important ones. These players are playing on the edge of off-side, so they need their speed to get away from defenders.

All in all, the following attributes are vital for a fox-in-the-box:

- Off the Ball:

- Anticipation:

- Composure:

- Flair:

- Decisions:

- First Touch;

- Finishing;

- Pace;

- Acceleration.

I thought this was a good introduction to what a poacher is all about.

So, I'd like to ask, what are your experiences of using a poacher on FM?

Do you always use one or do you tend to avoid relying on one man for goals? Are you a fan of the poacher or do you prefer different types of forward?

Which real life players (past and present) would you describe as the ideal poachers? Any screenshots of current FM players is encouraged!

The article completely glosses over balance - an essential attribute for any striker, but especially so for a poacher as his chances will be more limited and under a lot more pressure.

The article completely glosses over balance - an essential attribute for any striker, but especially so for a poacher as his chances will be more limited and under a lot more pressure.

Yes, he has missed this but otherwise a good post even if he has included a few poor examples.

Owen should be a poacher, at least when he was younger but for me he has always lacked a killer instinct in front of goal whereas I wouldn't have included Huntelaar either as I class him as a much more all round striker.

I always play with a poacher.. I tend to use small and fast players. The stats I look for are: acceleration. pace, composure, finishing, off the ball, balance, technique and first touch.

I cant really imagine playing without a poacher.:

Batistuta too - far too great of an all-round striker to be classed as a poacher.

Inzaghi is the perfect example.

I've not had much success with poachers in my current save - I'm currently working with a deep/advanced strike partnership.

I always look to use a lone poacher. Seems to always work for me. I've had David Villa bag 71 goals in a season, and Theo Walcott bag 40+ goals for 4 seasons in a row. With the right creative players behind him, he'll be almost unstoppable.

Romario, Batistuta and Vieri poachers? Erm..no. Owen is perfect example. Pippo and Ole too. Flair is not needed for Poachers IMO.

Flair can make them more effective though.

Vieri and Batistuta are two of the best all-round strikers in the last 20 years imo.

Balance is more needed for wingers surley?

@ Ackter: Yes, but is not one of the main attributes for poacher.

Balance is essential for a striker to get a good shot off on goal.

20 finishing is pointless if the player doesn't have his body in the right position to make the shot count.

Balance is essential for a striker to get a good shot off on goal.

20 finishing is pointless if the player doesn't have his body in the right position to make the shot count.

That is really interesting. I always thought Balance is key attribute for wingers when they run byline past full backs.

Balance is more needed for wingers surley?

@ Ackter: Yes, but is not one of the main attributes for poacher.

There isn't that much difference between a winger and a poacher TBH in terms of build - fast, quick, agile, good touch & good dribbling.

Balance is a key attribute for a poacher and can be seen as a highlighted attribute in the tactics section of FM.

In the last couple of seasons with my PSV I have used a lone striker as a poacher.

It has gone very well on the whole, has more than a goal a game this season. The only problem is that the striker would go a game without a single chance, although this happens rarely, he relies heavily on quality wingplay and also a good playmaker.

He is a regen but will post a screenshot at the end of the season.

There isn't that much difference between a winger and a poacher TBH in terms of build - fast, quick, agile, good touch & good dribbling.

Balance is a key attribute for a poacher and can be seen as a highlighted attribute in the tactics section of FM.

Poachers don't tend to run with the ball much, so that's why I thought Balance isn't needed, but Ackter explained it.

I'd imagine agility and technique (technique of his shot) both being very important for poachers?

Balance is basically a massive modifier on the final ball - whether it be a cross, pass or shot.

A bad balance attribute can decimate a world class striker because he's never able to shoot at the best of his ability.

I'd rather have 15 finishing, 20 balance than the other way around.

Just loadin' up FM to see my striker's Balance attributes.

Chicha, Pato, Welbeck have poor balance (from 10-12). Rooney has 17, Berba 18 and Kiko 15.

I like to have them run with the ball often. If they're taking on defenders there could be a clumsy challenge for a penalty or a free kick on the edge of the area which my team will faithfully scuff.....maybe I should change this:)

I know poachers aren't in 'vogue' at the moment. I realise that they are rarer today than a few years ago, with many modern top flight sides frequently switching to 4-5-1 variations with a more complete forward. But what modern examples can people think of?

A couple of obvious ones that spring to mind would be Javier Hernadez (esp. given his impact this season). Or Miroslav Klose at the last World Cup, surely a typical German poacher; a real predator in front of goal! I'm sure others will probably be able to mention other key players who fit the description of being a 'poacher'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/jan/22/the-question-jonathan-wilson-goalpoachers?commentpage=3#start-of-comments

Great article about the modern striker. I would love to give credit to the person who posted this but Ive forgotten who it was.

As I said in the other thread Bababui, I don't always agree with JW's conclusions but I would agree that it is a trend in modern football. If you read some of the comments on that article, however, you can see that there are still plenty about. Quite a few arguments against what JW is asserting too if you read through them.

As I said in the other thread Bababui, I don't always agree with JW's conclusions but I would agree that it is a trend in modern football. If you read some of the comments on that article, however, you can see that there are still plenty about. Quite a few arguments against what JW is asserting too if you read through them.

I read them. They were interesting. I imagine there would have been an equally passionate debate about abandoning the W-M for the 442. Only time will tell if the move away from using a poacher is just a fad or whether the game has changed forever.

There is always lots of talk about tactical evolution (and evolution doesn't necessarily mean that we are heading towards some 'perfect' conception of the game, as JW seems to suggest) but how about this:

A '2-3-5' formation remarkably similar in terms shape and positions to which formation? The 'modern' 4-5-1/4-3-3 as most famously 'introduced' to the English game by Jose Mourinho.

As for the poacher, I mainly play in the lower leagues anyway, and he is still very much alive there!

There is always lots of talk about tactical evolution (and evolution doesn't necessarily mean that we are heading towards some 'perfect' conception of the game, as JW seems to suggest) but how about this:

A '2-3-5' formation remarkably similar in terms shape and positions to which formation? The 'modern' 4-5-1/4-3-3 as most famously 'introduced' to the English game by Jose Mourinho.

As for the poacher, I mainly play in the lower leagues anyway, and he is still very much alive there!

Nice find!! Any idea where the HB's played? Or did the flat back 4 only start with the 442?

Nice find!! Any idea where the HB's played? Or did the flat back 4 only start with the 442?

The wing half, or wing half back, was essentially like the modern wingback, I guess.

Interestingly, this discussion came up in a football publication I was reading, and someone was talking about the formation I posted above and how similar it was to Mourinho's Chelsea. It was essentially arguing that everything in football goes in cycles etc. Quite an interesting article.

Here is the Wikipedia entry on goal poachers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal_poacher

What do people make of this list:

* Gabriel Batistuta of Fiorentina[1]

* Kris Boyd of Middlesbrough F.C.[2]

* Andy Cole formerly of Manchester United[3]

* Hernán Crespo of Genoa C.F.C.[4]

* Robbie Fowler formerly of Liverpool F.C.[5]

* Alberto Gilardino of Fiorentina[6]

* Filippo Inzaghi of Milan[7]

* Gary Lineker formerly of Everton[8]

* Roy Makaay of Feyenoord[9]

* Gerd Müller formerly of FC Bayern Munich[10]

* Ruud van Nistelrooy of Hamburg SV[11]

* Michael Owen of Manchester United[12]

* Raúl of Schalke 04[13]

* Ronaldo of Corinthians FC[14]

* Alan Shearer formerly of Newcastle United[15]

* Luca Toni of Bayern Munich[16]

* David Trézéguet of Hercules Alicante[17]

* Christian Vieri of Atalanta[18]

* Ian Wright formerly of Arsenal[19]

I always play with a poacher.. I tend to use small and fast players. The stats I look for are: acceleration. pace, composure, finishing, off the ball, balance, technique and first touch.

I cant really imagine playing without a poacher.:

Exactly the same for me.

In a more recent (still playing) list I'd put:

Inzaghi

Chicharito

Shevchenko (Milan years)

Nuno Gomes (before going to Fiorentina)

Jardel (former Porto and Sporting goal machine)

Raul

Owen

...

and IMO the a guy that promises to be one of the best poachers in the next years, Falcao.

With one upfront I've been playing with a target man who has good pace, acceleration, composure, finishing and heading. Its been working OK for me.

I only play a poacher if I'm playing a two striker formation. Poacher and Target man combination.

Here is the Wikipedia entry on goal poachers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal_poacher

What do people make of this list:

Think I'd agree with that, don't think anyone has mentioned RVN, and of course he was one of the best poachers the EPL has seen.

It's difficult to call Kris Boyd a football player though, much less a poacher.

Here is the Wikipedia entry on goal poachers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal_poacher

What do people make of this list:

LoL at Shearer being on it likewise Batistuta and Vieri all three offered way to much apart from goals.

I just noticed Toni is there too an even bigger LoL at the inclusion of the archetypal target man.

For me Raul is the greatest poacher of all time

This year I played for a short time with a poacher and a target man, and now I have a poacher and a deep lying forward (this partnership has flourished for me)

in the previous versions of FM I tried to play with 2 poachers, and sometimes it backfired, 1 poacher getting all the goals and the other getting ratings between 5.8 and 6.0 in the match

I know poachers aren't in 'vogue' at the moment. I realise that they are rarer today than a few years ago, with many modern top flight sides frequently switching to 4-5-1 variations with a more complete forward. But what modern examples can people think of?

A couple of obvious ones that spring to mind would be Javier Hernadez (esp. given his impact this season). Or Miroslav Klose at the last World Cup, surely a typical German poacher; a real predator in front of goal! I'm sure others will probably be able to mention other key players who fit the description of being a 'poacher'.

Anthony Stokes at Celtic has a habit of getting his goals from about 2 yards.

http://youtu.be/JK4mmoesiYo

LoL at Shearer being on it likewise Batistuta and Vieri all three offered way to much apart from goals.

I just noticed Toni is there too an even bigger LoL at the inclusion of the archetypal target man.

Shearer is actually quite a good shout as a poacher, yes he did offer more as he got older but he was a good poacher as well.

Played on the shoulder of the last man, natural goal scorer and got across defenders to get to crosses first.

But yes a lot of players who shouldn't be on that list - Boyd? Gilardino? Ronaldo? Toni? Vieri?

Shearer is a definite no to being a poacher at any point in his career.

At Blackburn he'd collect the ball and run just as often as he'd turn up at the end of the move.

Shearer was a complete forward.

Ally McCoist, John Robertson, Klinsmann, Crespo

Shearer is a definite no to being a poacher at any point in his career.

At Blackburn he'd collect the ball and run just as often as he'd turn up at the end of the move.

Shearer was a complete forward.

A complete forward? Really? He didn't run at people, didn't have a lot of pace etc.

I'd have thought TM (attack) in FM terms. Ball delivered into feet or in the air.

You can see why people would say 'poacher'. Lethal in the box and a fantastic finisher, plus fantastic off the ball movement.

Shearer is actually quite a good shout as a poacher, yes he did offer more as he got older but he was a good poacher as well.

Played on the shoulder of the last man, natural goal scorer and got across defenders to get to crosses first.

But yes a lot of players who shouldn't be on that list - Boyd? Gilardino? Ronaldo? Toni? Vieri?

Ronaldo maybe as he got older?

Thing is about Ronaldo, 'poacher' might well be a good call in FM terms. I know he came deep a lot to get the ball and run at people but that's essentially the job of a poacher on FM. My vision of Ronaldo is as a pure consumer really, although he made things happen but mainly for himself. Just all that pace, strength and technical ability to get to goal.

Luca Toni though, surely a TM?

I guess the thing is that it depends on your definition of 'poacher'.

If you're talking about players who primarily offer goals through their main attributes of great movement and fantastic finishing ability then a lot of these candidates would surely be on the list.

A lot of people define the poacher as basically a player who only offers this, for example a Lineker, Inzaghi or Fowler maybe?

Is the FM conception of a poacher more the former than the latter? An FM poacher will run with the ball, move into the channels, possibly cross, as well as mainly scoring goals.

Shearer is actually quite a good shout as a poacher, yes he did offer more as he got older but he was a good poacher as well.

Played on the shoulder of the last man, natural goal scorer and got across defenders to get to crosses first.

But yes a lot of players who shouldn't be on that list - Boyd? Gilardino? Ronaldo? Toni? Vieri?

Boyd is def a poacher, pretty much useless at anything except putting the ball in the net, Toni i could see, but id see him as more of a target man.

Andy Cole is a good shout, up here at Aberdeen we had Ducan Shearer, he was definately a poacher, prob Billy Dodds as well.

How about Hernandez of Man U?

I guess the thing is that it depends on your definition of 'poacher'.

If you're talking about players who primarily offer goals through their main attributes of great movement and fantastic finishing ability then a lot of these candidates would surely be on the list.

A lot of people define the poacher as basically a player who only offers this, for example a Lineker, Inzaghi or Fowler maybe?

Is the FM conception of a poacher more the former than the latter? An FM poacher will run with the ball, move into the channels, possibly cross, as well as mainly scoring goals.

Fowler so NOT a poacher in the same way as Lineker, RvN and Inzaghi.

People have forgotten how much he worked.

Do you think so Ackter? I would have thought Fowler was the ultimate 'fox in the box' poacher type. Most of his goals were poachers goals, as far as I can remember.

What type of striker would you have Fowler down as in FM terms then?

Fowler had a huge amount of support in his game (if you ignore his first season before working with Rush really started to show in his game).

In his first season he was 100% poacher, but his development from then on was amazing.

I'd say in FM terms he'd be an advanced forward.

Then a deep-lying striker after he got properly injured.

This is what T&T '10 has to say about poachers:

Poacher: The poacher is dying out in modern, top-level football, but there is still room for a man who “only” scores goals. The tendency has been for forwards to become more well-rounded; helping the midfield, being creative and moving around to create more space for other players. The poacher, however, does little of this. His job is to hang around the penalty area creating a yard of space at the last moment to pick up a through ball or cross and score goals. A good poacher can easily get 30 goals a season, but the whole team needs to be set up for him. He will absolutely need a strike partner, otherwise he will be totally isolated, and the midfield need to work the ball into the box to provide him with lots of opportunities to score. He needs to be incredibly composed, have great finishing, be brilliant off the ball and be very consistent.

Contemporary Example: Raúl González (Real Madrid); Michael Owen (Manchester United; England)

Classic Example: Gary Lineker (Everton; England)

Whereas they define an advanced forward like this:

Advanced Forward: This player usually hangs on the shoulder of the last defender, looking to latch on to through balls from the midfield or his strike partner. He can be isolated if used entirely on his own, so he will need support from the attacking midfield stratum or a fellow centre forward. Usually quick, pretty decent on the ball and a lethal finisher, he is slightly more well rounded than the “poacher” as he will drop back a little bit if absolutely needed to put pressure on the centre backs or to receive the ball. This player is likely to be the top goal scorer for any team that employs him, and will be the focus of many attacks. Therefore, he needs to be reliable and able to handle pressure.

Contemporary Example: Fernando Torres (Liverpool; Spain); Samuel Eto’o (Internazionale; Cameroon)

Classic Example: Ronaldo (Real Madrid; Brazil); Gerd Müller (Bayern München; West Germany)

There isn't that much difference in the TC between the two. Advanced forward just has 'roam from position' and mixed on long shots and through balls. Otherwise, they are pretty much the same in all other instructions.

That's the difference between Fowler and Owen though tbh.

Fowler spent a lot of time wide and actually knew how to assist.

Advanced Forward is a creative Poacher. So, you can expect goals and assists from AF. That's how I understand it.

Yeah, makes sense to me Fabio. Essentially a player who will assist and score. I would guess the main difference is the 'roam from position' plus the fact that a poacher's instructions are basically to get to goal and score (apart from mixed crossing).

Anyway, I think that there is something quite satisfying about having a player who can knock them in for fun in your team on FM.

This is my main poacher from my St. Albans City team:

Physically, he's a monster, with pure pace, strength and ability in the air. Also great agility and balance. His off the ball and anticipation gives him the edge in terms of movement, and he's brave, so not afraid to go in where it might hurt to take a chance. Technically, he's got a great touch, good in the air and can strike a ball beautifully. The only thing letting him down slightly is his composure, otherwise I would say that he is a perfect poacher. Also, even though set as a poacher, this guy contributes a lot of assists too and generally makes things happen going forward.

Boyd is def a poacher, pretty much useless at anything except putting the ball in the net

To be honest, he's useless at that as well.

My experience with poachers in game is that if you're in horrific form, having one man whose sole purpose is to put the ball into the back of the net can help you get back on scoring form.

To be honest, he's useless at that as well.

My experience with poachers in game is that if you're in horrific form, having one man whose sole purpose is to put the ball into the back of the net can help you get back on scoring form.

when he's on form he can be deadly, but warrented the rest of the time he is a waste of space.