The Netherlands ≠ Holland!

I would like to draw SI's attention to a matter which concerns an entire nation. Now that this issue has been overlooked for so many years without any 'protest' apparently, I think it is time to correct it.

I think everyone in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will agree with me that their nation cannot be addressed with 'England' and I assume many Englishmen will feel offended/insulted if their country would be addressed as 'Scotland,' as noted by the many jokes that the English tend to make from anyone who lives north of the border. The same probably is true for many Scotsmen if they were referred to as Englishmen.

This is the same for 'Holland'. Holland doesn't even exist. It has been split up in two provinces. Moreover, it's part of (The Kingdom of) The Netherlands. That's why I would like to see a change being made in the game so that the game is correct and realistic(!). Please change where-ever you put Holland into The Netherlands because 'Holland' has never played an international match. The correct abbreviation would then be 'NLD'.

Might as well get 'Ivory Coast' changed to 'Côte d'Ivoire' while we are at it.

from wikipedia

Holland is a name in common usage given to a region in the western part of the Netherlands. The term Holland is also frequently used to refer to the whole of the Netherlands. This usage is generally accepted but nevertheless unofficial and disliked by many Dutch people in the other parts of the Netherlands.

maybe this can be brought up in the Dutch section of the database

I have to agree with longtimefan and Wiitastic here, unless there's some contractual reason as to why SI aren't allowed to have a country called 'The Netherlands' in the game (It wouldn't surprise me considering some of the dumb restrictions they have to deal with).

Might as well get 'Ivory Coast' changed to 'Côte d'Ivoire' while we are at it.

and north korea to the people democratic.... oh forget it !

In fairness, I think the misunderstanding of the Netherlands/Holland is far further than just FM.

But But I agree with the OP that I would like to see FM make a point of getting it right.

Yeah it's such a common thing amongst English people to mix it up, that there was even surprise when it was pointed out as an "interesting fact" on the UK show QI ("Quite Interesting"). It's just quite engrained.

In Iceland we say "Holland" but the Netherlands term in Icelandic is never used, I even had to google it and Niðurlönd, roughly translated to Downlands, just sounds odd. No one would even think of using that term when speaking about Holland.

But I do get your point about it being incorrectly named.

Weirdly, I remember knowing the country as Holland when I was a kid. Not quite sure how, or why. I know better and would always call it the Netherlands now, but if someone asks me to point out Holland on a map, I'd point to the Netherlands, I wouldn't focus on that strip along the west coast, unless I was feeling exceptionally pedantic.

Using the 'not equals' sign in this case is an incorrect use of the notation and very ironic considering that you're complaining about improper use of a name.

Long story short either get a moderator to change the name or I don't agree with you because you're a hypocritical prat!

Using the 'not equals' sign in this case is an incorrect use of the notation and very ironic considering that you're complaining about improper use of a name.

But the statement makes sense, does it not? The Netherlands is not equal to Holland.

How about The Netherlands ⊃ Holland?

But the statement makes sense, does it not? The Netherlands is not equal to Holland.

How about The Netherlands ⊃ Holland?

Well, as it is not a properly defined mathematical statement, it is not the correct use. As previously pointed out Holland is a perfectly acceptable way of refering to the Netherlands in English. However, it has also been pointed about that Holland is in fact a region of the Netherlands and as such some people get offended when their nation is refered to as just that region. Interestingly enough the word for Germany in many languages developed differently depending on the people or region that they most interacted with. For example it is German in English yet it is Alemania (or equivelent) in a lot of other European languages.

Also, saying that it is a subset doesn't really work in the instance of how the term "Holland" is used in English and hence it is not defined properly. So yeah, it is an improper use because it is not defined in any conventional sense and in truth the use of it is actually worse than the use of the word Holland as the Netherlands as it is actually used in some sense in English.

Well, as it is not a properly defined mathematical statement, it is not the correct use. As previously pointed out Holland is a perfectly acceptable way of refering to the Netherlands in English. However, it has also been pointed about that Holland is in fact a region of the Netherlands and as such some people get offended when their nation is refered to as just that region. Interestingly enough the word for Germany in many languages developed differently depending on the people or region that they most interacted with. For example it is German in English yet it is Alemania (or equivelent) in a lot of other European languages.

Germany isnt a subset of the larger nation. Alemania and derivatives are only used in the Romance languages. Holland is as inappropriate a term for The Netherlands as England is for the UK.

Germany isnt a subset of the larger nation. Alemania and derivatives are only used in the Romance languages. Holland is as inappropriate a term for The Netherlands as England is for the UK.

It's a bit like calling America 'New England'. Might have been correct 300 years ago, but it's not now.

Germany isnt a subset of the larger nation. Alemania and derivatives are only used in the Romance languages. Holland is as inappropriate a term for The Netherlands as England is for the UK.

To be truly correct they should be called Deutschland and not Germany in English. Much like Japan should be Nippon or Nihon or some variant. However, that is not the way language works and where I came from I only ever heard the name Holland until I was about 15. There's nothing really "offensive" in that, or so I would hope. It's a name that's been used in English for a long time.

Back to the whole thing though, we refer to them as Germany because of Germania, however their history and current structure is based on far more than that. That is our name for them in English though. The same applies in other languages with the name Alemania. Sure these days the proper name is the Netherlands, and it should probably be that in the game, but really, its not that overly important.

Back to my main point, the not equals sign is used incorrectly and personally that's more offensive than using Holland instead of the Netherlands.

It's a bit like calling America 'New England'. Might have been correct 300 years ago, but it's not now.

No it isn't, as in English we haven't used that term in Centuries to refer to the United States. However calling the United States 'America' on the other hand is slightly offensive in truth as it is actually the United States of America and not America. 'America' is the continent. It would be like calling Germany 'Europe' or China 'Asia'.

Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader: FM Edition

I personally am a bit of a geek for little details like this (I spent like 4 hours or so in the editor as soon as I got the game changing the names of competitions and awards to make them 'correct'). The official name is 'The Netherlands' NOT 'Holland' therefore, unless for legal reason SI are not allowed to call it 'The Netherlands', then that is how it should be referred.

Now you brought It up I'm going to have to go change it in the editor... How easy is it to change the name of a country.

you do know that to change competition name you can do it much much easier with a simple .lnc file, right ?

you do know that to change competition name you can do it much much easier with a simple .lnc file, right ?

Really...

Tell me how, and I'll be all over that! I know there is a way, I've used it for the fake national teams, but I'm not sure how to change current things with it.

"COMP_LONG_NAME_CHANGE" [League number] "[New name]" ""

I have to agree with longtimefan and Wiitastic here, unless there's some contractual reason as to why SI aren't allowed to have a country called 'The Netherlands' in the game (It wouldn't surprise me considering some of the dumb restrictions they have to deal with).

there's not, otherwise it would happen with Germany also

I'd suggest a more accurate comparison would be to refer to England as London, considering how much of the world seems to think they are the same thing anyway (including our own media at times).

Those saying we'd have to call Germany "Deutschland" really aren't getting it though. It isn't about having the country's name appear in its own language; the dutch word for Netherlands isn't even "Netherlands", that isn't why it should be changed. The correct English word for the country is Netherlands, that's why it should be used instead of Holland.

In English, the Netherlands and Holland are interchangeable. Maybe in the Dutch Language version of the game this should be changed, but frankly most people who play the game in England aren't really fussed about which specific parts of the Netherlands is referred to by Holland.

I actually wonder if this has something to do with the license SI has to represent the national team in their game, rather than anything else.

Take the DDT file 'team_holland.ddt', which is a file that comes pre-installed with the game/patches. This seems to be a requirement for commercial and sponsorship reasons. What I'm trying to say is that maybe the national team is referred to as Holland for similar reasons?

Technically the OP is right, but then again Holland has been a very common name for The Netherlands for such a long time it'd be counterintuitive switching to the official name.

It's a matter of simplicity, not necessarily right or accurate, but the practice of using a synecdoche while referring to a country is quite common and accepted, unless it's in a context where using pars pro toto is either confusing or offensive.

We all know that "Once upon a time in America" takes place in the U.S. and not in Canada, Belize or Chile...

We do understand the "In Soviet Russia cars drive you" joke was as valid in Moscow as in Kiev, Tashkent or Vladivostok.

Should we go for "Once upon a time in the United States of America" and "In the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics cars drive you" to be historically/linguistically accurate?

Speaking of Germany... there are several etymologies for the name, depending on the language and on the time when said language coined a name for that nation, but all are perfectly valid, regardless of what Germans prefer or use...

Should the languages that adopted the "Alemania" or the "Saxon" etymology come up with a "better" name because the Alamanni/Saxon tribes aren't relevant/historically accurate anymore?

Should we all adopt a calque of the official Deutschland name? What about Teutsland?

And don't get me started on Greece...

The point is: Holland "was" the Netherlands, and the name stuck in several languages. It's not 100% accurate but it's still the most familiar name.

I'm gonna call it whatever i like. Laters.

I don't see why they wouldn't change it. As far as I knew they were interchangeable, in the same way America, and the United States of America are interchangeable. I think most people know exactly what country you mean when a person says 'The Netherlands', so if that's the actual accurate version, then why not change it in game.

You would have thought that someone who deals with the Dutch licensing would have said something to SI by now if it was a big issue.

Calm down Dutchies, take a chill pill. Is it really that big a deal? I'm used to the UK being referred to as England, frankly I just don't care anymore. I live in Scotland, I know the proper terminology and am not pedantic enough to give a monkey's about something so inconsequential.

Besides, Netherlands sounds like a post-apocolyptic dystopian nightmare. "Out of the post-atomic wastlend, where life is hard, comes the people of..... The Netherlands."

Change it!

I never knew that Holland was only a region of The Netherlands and I'm in my 40's... tbf I'd never really given it much thought even though I have several Dutch friends who live in The Netherlands and none of them have ever corrected me...

I'm from Ireland (Eire, Inis Fail, Scotia, Hibernia, etc..) and rarely hear anybody call Ireland Eire even though it is the official name... (even myself )

I think it is a licensing issue. Don't Dutch people call the national team "Holland" in the same way that Brazilians call their side the Selecao? Wikipedia would back that up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_national_football_team -it lists Holland along with Oranje and Het Nederlands Elftal as nicknames for the side.

It does irritate me generally when Netherlands is referred to as Holland, but maybe this is a case where we'll just have to put up with it, as the licensing for the side is pretty strict.

"The Netherlands is this make believe place, where Peter Pan and Tinkerbell come from."

The reason why The Netherlands is called Holland in game is due to licensing reasons as that is what they want to be called (I think it was Ter that confirmed this last time it came up), if you have a look at the licensing screens when the game loads you'll see that they actually refer to themselves as Team Holland.

So if you are unhappy about The Netherlands being referred to as Holland the people you want to speak to are Team Holland's licensing deparment.

The reason why The Netherlands is called Holland in game is due to licensing reasons as that is what they want to be called (I think it was Ter that confirmed this last time it came up), if you have a look at the licensing screens when the game loads you'll see that they actually refer to themselves as Team Holland.

So if you are unhappy about The Netherlands being referred to as Holland the people you want to speak to are Team Holland's licensing deparment.

Just as I thought.

ouch, the irony....