I'm pretty unhappy with the way the ME handles complacency

I'm on the complacency that sets in after you win loads of games in a row.

And what basically happens is, all your players anticipation goes to 0.

They just stand around watching things happen. If there is a deflection, the other teams players react nearly one whole second quicker!

Its pretty scandalous IMO. Certain matches become almost impossible to win.

The best way to get this investigated is to head over to the bugs forum and upload PKMs (saved matches) showing this happening - that way it'll get entered into the SI internal database and the team will look into it.

Picture is pretty self explanatory. Player 2, costs me a goal for no reason. He can see his man, has more than enough time to at least get near his man. Is LOOKING at his man. But he moves in the OPPOSITE direction. They are all set up well enough, but for no apparent reason he deliberately lets him run through. It's not even as if he tries and makes a mistake. And he is great defender. Barcelona are currently trying to buy him off me.

Everyone clearly has a job to do. (1) is marking his man, (3) tries to win the ball, (4) dropped back to track his man. But for some reason great defender (2) decides to just move out the way like he has been bribed. It's FAR from a one off too.

Nope - picture would be no use to SI at all. They'd need a number of different matches to look into to track down the problem.

The visual ME is just a representation using a number of animations and movements of the number crunching going on behind the scenes and does not truly reflect the match and also has no bearing on the scoreline. This has been confirmed many times before.

It would make no difference if you player went in for a tackle the game has already processed that the player will run through your defence and score, how the ME represents this is what SI still need to work on.

It would make no difference if you player went in for a tackle the game has already processed that the player will run through your defence and score, how the ME represents this is what SI still need to work on.

Definitely true.

The 3D match engine is awful really. In many ways I'd rather just have commentary. At its purest, this game should be about tactics. But the 3D is more of a hindrance than anything else. What you see is basically meaningless. The only visual difference you see is the physical formations. Everything else it is impossible to tell.

Just had one where I conceded 3 wonder run goals, by mediocre players! They might as well just say at the start of the game, unlucky mate, this is going to be a heavy defeat, and save me from having to watch it.

And of course, my players, who are actually capable of wonder runs, constantly get dispossessed on their first touch by average defenders...

You need better man-management. What are you saying in your press conferences and pre-match team talks? What are you saying/not saying to complacent players privately? YOU should not allowing your players to enter the pitch if their heads are not right.

Just avoid complacency in the first place, praise less and less as the streak goes on and be more demanding, and if you attend press conferences don't say that you expect the streak to go on any longer.

Player complacency is much more likely to be related to your interaction at press conferences, team talks and with the players than a ME issue.

yeah, the guys above are all right. It is not a ME issue, really, but a 3d representation issue. However, while I agree with you that it is probably down to team talk and pre-match conferences whether or not this complacency (or nervousness) sets in, I disagree that a 20% chance to have the right team talk should have that much influence on how your players perform.

Team talks are too powerful now, especially considering how little information we get about what is the right thing to say. It is pure guesswork for at least half a season before you get to know your players.

In my Las Palmas game, I used "For the Fans" and "Expect a performance" the first 5-6 matches against the likes of Real Madrid and Shakhtar, and mostly the players were playing with confidence or other good stuff. Then I met Betis away, followed the assistant's advice and told them For the fans. The result was that 8 or 9 of my players were playing nervously and I was lucky to get a 0-0 result even though I created 25 chances against their 14-15. Changing to a less-pressure team talk (you can win this) in the break did nothing. Why?

I have no idea. There are a billion parameters that could have made this so. That pressure was bad away vs Betis, where I was a slight favourite, but good away vs Real Madrid where I was an underdog makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Isn't it logical to reduce pressure when you face a better opponent and increase it when you are a big favourite, to avoid nervousness and complacency respectively?

I don't mind the players getting complacent. And I leave all that stuff up to my world class Assistant Manager.

But I do mind when complacency makes your players play as if they are paralysed

Nope - picture would be no use to SI at all. They'd need a number of different matches to look into to track down the problem.

Why? Doesn't SI know this is happening?

Player complacency is much more likely to be related to your interaction at press conferences, team talks and with the players than a ME issue.

Yeah, because that makes perfect sense... Oh, wait, it really doesn't because we have minimum choices for interaction and press conferences should play no part on a player's complacency. In real life most of press conferences are just for show or mind games. The real talk happens behind the cameras.

You need better man-management. What are you saying in your press conferences and pre-match team talks? What are you saying/not saying to complacent players privately? YOU should not allowing your players to enter the pitch if their heads are not right.

Just avoid complacency in the first place, praise less and less as the streak goes on and be more demanding, and if you attend press conferences don't say that you expect the streak to go on any longer.

Player complacency is much more likely to be related to your interaction at press conferences, team talks and with the players than a ME issue.

It doesn't really matter if complacency can be avoided by using the right teamtalks/media interaction. The OP's argument is that complacency has too big impact on performance, something i can relate to. Avoiding complacency, while definitely the best option, is not the fix to that

Why? Doesn't SI know this is happening?

Yeah, because that makes perfect sense... Oh, wait, it really doesn't because we have minimum choices for interaction and press conferences should play no part on a player's complacency. In real life most of press conferences are just for show or mind games. The real talk happens behind the cameras.

We have plenty options, press conferences, private chats, and team talks, both pre and post match. The first team talk for your next game is the last one of your current game, handle that wrongly and you could struggle with complacency. Just because your unsure how to deal with, does not mean it is not possible to deal with.

Is there anything in this game you're happy with Sheva?

Yay for Football Shrink 2011!

I'm sure all of that is down to "wrong" choices in team talks and press conferences... Too bad we're given the tools but not the manual, so we end up taking wild guesses...

It's frustrating because at some point nothing seems to work anymore, and you're just bound to lose/draw a relatively easy match just because there isn't a "right" option anymore or it makes so little sense you're unlikely to choose it.

Seriously, we don't know which team talk is "motivational", which one is putting more pressure, which one is reassuring etc... And even if we knew it, there's still the whole "how will the players react?", because of course the one-word definition of players' character is hardly a valid indicator...

Oh and the Private Chats should help me, but most options are greyed out, and the chance of upsetting a player while trying to be well-meaning and positive are much too high... Geez, you could get a player upset because you PRAISED his performances...

Unless we get a deailed and comprehensive explaination of the whole interaction dynamics, of every single team talk and player-related conversation/question, it's quite ridiculous having the mental aspect of the game playing such a big part in the game.

Basically it's like trying to speak a language we've sort of learned by ourselves, but where every single word or sentence can have 5 different meanings and the meaning depends on your voice intonation AND on the other person's mindset. Unfortunately without a teacher you can't get your intonation right and you can't learn to "read" other people's mood.

If that's not both unfair and absurd, I don't know what it is...

I'm sick of people saying that we have to take "wild guesses" when it comes to player/media interaction....

WE DON'T!!! You only need to take "wild guesses" if you are not playing the game properly

Everything you say or do has an effect on your players... EVERYTHING... if you are too lazy or too stupid to see what happens when you say something then it's your own fault..

If I tell a player to "pick up where you left off" and he has a blinder... yep, every time it's available he gets it... if he plays crap... he never gets told to "pick up where you left off" again.. this is obviously a little basic, form, morale, the opposition, where you're playing, the importance of the match, etc all also have an effect so maybe he won't "pick up where he left off" in an away game against title favourites but at home against relegation fodder he does...

you have to try things and take note of what effect it has... then REMEMBER the effect and whether it was good or bad. It's pointless telling a star player that you "expect a performance" if he runs and hides in the stands because of the pressure but if he plays out of his skin under such pressure...

The same applies to press-conferences and media interactions, even questions that aren't focused on have an effect on players... you might get asked if you think you can win to which you say you expect to take the game and then get asked about an oppo player which your reply is the focus of the news item... the "expect to win" comment was still made and will still have an effect... you have to learn what effect it has...

Private chat can also be a useful tool for motivating your players, especially if they had a poor game last time out.. the PR from a private chat tends to last 4 days (why only 4 days? stupid!) so you need to time your bollocking for poor performance so that you can use "expect a performance"/"expect better" or similar in the next match (if it has a positive effect - trial and error to discover if it does or not )

Basically, if you are too lazy to learn, stop bloody complaining!

=========================

The biggest problem SI has is creating enough animations, scenarios and sequences to accurately portray what is actually happening (has happened) on the pitch. We should all remember that there aren't a huge number of them and so if the 3D ME hasn't got a suitable animation it will use the 'nearest" to it (which could look completely wrong...)

IF SI could sort out the 3D visualisation so there were less anomalies then people might realise that what they are seeing now isn't actually a true reflection of what is happening..

I'm sick of people saying that we have to take "wild guesses" when it comes to player/media interaction....

WE DON'T!!! You only need to take "wild guesses" if you are not playing the game properly

Everything you say or do has an effect on your players... EVERYTHING... if you are too lazy or too stupid to see what happens when you say something then it's your own fault..

If I tell a player to "pick up where you left off" and he has a blinder... yep, every time it's available he gets it... if he plays crap... he never gets told to "pick up where you left off" again.. this is obviously a little basic, form, morale, the opposition, where you're playing, the importance of the match, etc all also have an effect so maybe he won't "pick up where he left off" in an away game against title favourites but at home against relegation fodder he does...

you have to try things and take note of what effect it has... then REMEMBER the effect and whether it was good or bad. It's pointless telling a star player that you "expect a performance" if he runs and hides in the stands because of the pressure but if he plays out of his skin under such pressure...

if you are too lazy to learn, stop bloody complaining!

exactly that, everything is understandable in the game, it just doesnt fall into your lap, you have to actually think about what is going on. People seem to want the interactions to be like an arcade experience with everything laid out. "if player X is feel nervous press button Y", but you have to learn what works with your players and your players only.

The visual ME is just a representation using a number of animations and movements of the number crunching going on behind the scenes and does not truly reflect the match and also has no bearing on the scoreline. This has been confirmed many times before.

It would make no difference if you player went in for a tackle the game has already processed that the player will run through your defence and score, how the ME represents this is what SI still need to work on.

this is really disapointing. ive lost count of how many hours ive poured into watchin matches and even analyzing goals conceded post match to try and improve results. the above post sounds like ive been wastin time doin all that, id be as well just basin player/tactical decision on player rating alone.

this is really disapointing. ive lost count of how many hours ive poured into watchin matches and even analyzing goals conceded post match to try and improve results. the above post sounds like ive been wastin time doin all that, id be as well just basin player/tactical decision on player rating alone.

your not wasting your time at all, just dont take what you have seen as exact gospel, i mean that more in terms of maybe seeing the same one on one sequence or the same corner sequence, those events have actually happened maybe just not exactly as you have seen.

In terms of almost everything else the 3D rep is very good for seeing where things have gone right and wrong, just remember there are only a limited number of animations for each event, because its impossible to programmed every possible event into an animation.

It doesn't matter if there's a "correct" sequence of talks to mitigate complacency, because the in-game tips specifically state that oft-used team talks have diminishing effects meaning that complacency inevitably builds to an insurmountable point.

IMO, the game has veered too far into the realm of nebulous psychology management. Human psychology is really too complex and unpredictable to properly model in a game, and the developers shouldn't even try. To make the game more realistic, they need to narrow the gap in the skill level of top division teams and work on improving AI tactics and squad-building. I would also like to see the option of importing player-made tactics for the AI to use via the DB editor for players seeking a greater challenge on the pitch as opposed to the locker room.

Also, complacency increasing the rate of shots against the woodwork is the stupidest thing ever and needs to be removed. I would rather my complacent players just miss the goal entirely.

It doesn't matter if there's a "correct" sequence of talks to mitigate complacency, because the in-game tips specifically state that oft-used team talks have diminishing effects meaning that complacency inevitably builds to an insurmountable point.

But its not inevitable at all, its very easily avoided, i do not suffer from any complacency issues in FM, but i dont use the same team talks over and over.

Yes, it is inevitable, but it is mitigated by the occasional loss and can be avoided for longer stretches with a bit of luck. In general, I don't have a "problem" with complacency in the sense that I don't have much trouble at all winning leagues with mid-table teams even with the effects of complacency, but that's not really the issue here. The greater and central point of this thread which is that complacency is both unrealistic and produces ridiculous, unrealistic behavior. FM11 is both too easy and just kind of annoying in the way it tries to create a challenge via player psychology.

I want a harder game, but I also want a more realistic game. I want to see opposition players making intelligent decisions based on flaws in my tactics, not defenders simply "turning off" because the psychology variables have built up too greatly against me.

Player complacency is much more likely to be related to your interaction at press conferences, team talks and with the players than a ME issue.

One would think this yes... however it not as helpful as it's made out.

For instance I always use the press options that would be anti-complacency related, 'still have to work hard' 'not going to be an easy game' etc... then on top of that pay attention to when my asst man is telling me players are looking complacent before a mach to give them a 'expect a performance' team talk.

Then I ran into an interesting situation for the first time yesterday. Have a player that I knew has a low 'pressure' attribute because get gets nervous from time to time. My asst man tells me he's looking over confident in warm up. Right there I knew I was screwed.. I can't just tell him 'no pressure' when he's over confident or he'll get complacent and I can't tell him 'expect a performance' or he'll get nervous.

The press system is a joke, the team talks aren't deep enough, and even when I've used 'expect a performance/win' players will still get complacent motivations afterward. The interaction system simply needs work, all aspects of it.

I'm sick of people saying that we have to take "wild guesses" when it comes to player/media interaction....

WE DON'T!!! You only need to take "wild guesses" if you are not playing the game properly

Everything you say or do has an effect on your players... EVERYTHING... if you are too lazy or too stupid to see what happens when you say something then it's your own fault..

If I tell a player to "pick up where you left off" and he has a blinder... yep, every time it's available he gets it... if he plays crap... he never gets told to "pick up where you left off" again.. this is obviously a little basic, form, morale, the opposition, where you're playing, the importance of the match, etc all also have an effect so maybe he won't "pick up where he left off" in an away game against title favourites but at home against relegation fodder he does...

you have to try things and take note of what effect it has... then REMEMBER the effect and whether it was good or bad. It's pointless telling a star player that you "expect a performance" if he runs and hides in the stands because of the pressure but if he plays out of his skin under such pressure...

The same applies to press-conferences and media interactions, even questions that aren't focused on have an effect on players... you might get asked if you think you can win to which you say you expect to take the game and then get asked about an oppo player which your reply is the focus of the news item... the "expect to win" comment was still made and will still have an effect... you have to learn what effect it has...

Private chat can also be a useful tool for motivating your players, especially if they had a poor game last time out.. the PR from a private chat tends to last 4 days (why only 4 days? stupid!) so you need to time your bollocking for poor performance so that you can use "expect a performance"/"expect better" or similar in the next match (if it has a positive effect - trial and error to discover if it does or not )

Basically, if you are too lazy to learn, stop bloody complaining!

=========================

The biggest problem SI has is creating enough animations, scenarios and sequences to accurately portray what is actually happening (has happened) on the pitch. We should all remember that there aren't a huge number of them and so if the 3D ME hasn't got a suitable animation it will use the 'nearest" to it (which could look completely wrong...)

IF SI could sort out the 3D visualisation so there were less anomalies then people might realise that what they are seeing now isn't actually a true reflection of what is happening..

To put it very simply: "you can win today" is a useful thing to say in a dressing room how? What does it mean? Does it mean something in the line of "we are the underdogs here, but if you work hard and do what I say, we can win this?" or is it "we can win today as we can win every match - this is a match just like any other". Or what do you think? Is it reassuring, is it challenging, is it increasing pressure, decreasing complacency?

Noone knows. We just guess...

The effect of it is possible to extract by trying and failing, as you say. How is this period of trial and error anything but guesswork?

To conclude: the model of having a few one-liners that is supposed to be indicative of what must be a whole speech is in dire need of improvement. Add more descriptive choices or drop them altogether.

I'm sick of people saying that we have to take "wild guesses" when it comes to player/media interaction....

WE DON'T!!! You only need to take "wild guesses" if you are not playing the game properly

Everything you say or do has an effect on your players... EVERYTHING... if you are too lazy or too stupid to see what happens when you say something then it's your own fault..

Oh come on now...!

It's Football Manager not The Sims, so for the love of god we shouldn't need to have to keep a freaking journal of every teamtalk we've given to every single player just to avoid getting disastrous results because one of the players is having a hissy fir about you telling him "I expect a win" or something...

In case you didn't get it, I wasn't asking for a "press X to win" button or a "one size fits all" teamtalk... I just want logic and consistency in players interaction...

As things are now, there's no way to predict how/when complacency will be an issue, no way to counter it once it's costing you a match, and it's extremely hard to stop the downward spiral in morale/performances/results once it's started.

Moreso, why should I say "our streak isn't going to last" just because that's what the game WANTS me to say? Seriously, if there's no reason to doubt we should lose to a crappy side, even if a couple of fickle/erratic players are phoning it in, why should I say so?

What's that? One of those "do I look fat in that dress?" tricky mind-game?

The problem is the game currently uses morale as an additional deciding factor, almost a "cheat" if you will, regardless of how you choose to handle the questions and the team talks... And the trial-by-error theory you talk about only works a posteriori, so it holds no validity... it's a "oh, I see "For the fans" didn't work for last game..." situation, but it's a situation you'll never get again, and if it's just "similar", then the same team talk could now be the right choice while before it was a bad one.

Is it too much asking for an OFFICIAL explaination about what works with whom, and what doesn't? Because most of the time it seems like the game loves to screw with out logic and with our "common sense", just for the sake of throwing us a curve.

I want the game to give me the TOOLS I need to "decipher" the morale minigame, not the end-product...

And for pete's sake, TONE IT DOWN!

Yes, it is inevitable, but it is mitigated by the occasional loss and can be avoided for longer stretches with a bit of luck. In general, I don't have a "problem" with complacency in the sense that I don't have much trouble at all winning leagues with mid-table teams even with the effects of complacency, but that's not really the issue here. The greater and central point of this thread which is that complacency is both unrealistic and produces ridiculous, unrealistic behavior. FM11 is both too easy and just kind of annoying in the way it tries to create a challenge via player psychology.

I want a harder game, but I also want a more realistic game. I want to see opposition players making intelligent decisions based on flaws in my tactics, not defenders simply "turning off" because the psychology variables have built up too greatly against me.

This sums up my view exactly.

Great post.

To put it very simply: "you can win today" is a useful thing to say in a dressing room how? What does it mean? Does it mean something in the line of "we are the underdogs here, but if you work hard and do what I say, we can win this?" or is it "we can win today as we can win every match - this is a match just like any other". Or what do you think? Is it reassuring, is it challenging, is it increasing pressure, decreasing complacency?

Noone knows. We just guess...

The effect of it is possible to extract by trying and failing, as you say. How is this period of trial and error anything but guesswork?

To conclude: the model of having a few one-liners that is supposed to be indicative of what must be a whole speech is in dire need of improvement. Add more descriptive choices or drop them altogether.

First, 'you can win' is a the encouraging talk. It's like the individual 'have faith in your ability'. ie what you say to a player with lower morale.

Each of the talks does have it's place. But I can't agree with LazaruS because it's too limiting with only 5 talks.

Like the example I gave in my first post. I have a player I know doesn't handle pressure well but is looking over confident. The only options I have are to tell him something that will make him even more complacent or make him nervous. That's just freaking shallow. Why can't there be a talk that says don't get complacent but doesn't add pressure.

Expected reply: There is a talk that's 'don't get complacent'

Well yeah but it's only available at half time and if you are in the lead, then there is the end of the match 'warn against complacency in next match' and that one doesn't present itself as an option half the time I want to use it.

The interaction system has it's place and the concept is good. but it's incomplete and shallow, period.

Picture is pretty self explanatory. Player 2, costs me a goal for no reason. He can see his man, has more than enough time to at least get near his man. Is LOOKING at his man. But he moves in the OPPOSITE direction. They are all set up well enough, but for no apparent reason he deliberately lets him run through. It's not even as if he tries and makes a mistake. And he is great defender. Barcelona are currently trying to buy him off me.

Everyone clearly has a job to do. (1) is marking his man, (3) tries to win the ball, (4) dropped back to track his man. But for some reason great defender (2) decides to just move out the way like he has been bribed. It's FAR from a one off too.

I would agree if I didn't see it all the time on Match of the Day.

Hanson: "That's just pooah... pooah defendin'"

Dixon: "Schoolboy stuff, really..."

To put it very simply: "you can win today" is a useful thing to say in a dressing room how? What does it mean? Does it mean something in the line of "we are the underdogs here, but if you work hard and do what I say, we can win this?" or is it "we can win today as we can win every match - this is a match just like any other". Or what do you think? Is it reassuring, is it challenging, is it increasing pressure, decreasing complacency?

Noone knows. We just guess...

The effect of it is possible to extract by trying and failing, as you say. How is this period of trial and error anything but guesswork?

To conclude: the model of having a few one-liners that is supposed to be indicative of what must be a whole speech is in dire need of improvement. Add more descriptive choices or drop them altogether.

I don't guess... I tend to gear my media/player interactions between games towards a particular "theme" so that my team-talk fits the scenario. If we're massive underdogs I'll obviously play down our chances and be almost negative about getting a result at all. If we're massive favourites and I think we can win at a canter I'll be more upbeat/positive although I rarely ever publicly claim to expect to win a match even if I may still demand it of the players. I know what the choices of team-talks are, I've seen them often enough, and I know which situation they work best for. I simply create the situation to match the team-talk.

I have an example of a "you can win today" team-talk giving a massive underdog a big away win that I've screenshotted for a blog I'm thinking of creating. The screenies basically show my press conference answers, the team-talks pre-match and half-time, the post-match screens, action zones and a few stats pages etc.. My intention was, if I do create a blog, to demonstrate how your player interactions and press conference answers combined with the correct team-talk can produce big results.

Here's a few of them...

As you can see, it was quite deliberate of me to demand of my players and they delivered (for the most part). I knew that we could win the match and I also knew how we would.. and we did!

woops, sorry... I forgot the half-time team-talk...

So which version of FM is that?

Considering your initial talk shows no reaction it doesn't say a lot, you have been better to show motivations when they first show.

Also what you are saying nothing to what I was talking about as far as a lack of depth in the system. I've said many times I use the interactions just fine myself, but it's not deep enough to handle all situations.

Edit: Correction, since we can't expect to handle all situations... it's not deep enough to handle the situations the game itself can create.

So which version of FM is that?

Considering your initial talk shows no reaction it doesn't say a lot, you have been better to show motivations when they first show.

Also what you are saying nothing to what I was talking about as far as a lack of depth in the system. I've said many times I use the interactions just fine myself, but it's not deep enough to handle all situations.

Edit: Correction, since we can't expect to handle all situations... it's not deep enough to handle the situations the game itself can create.

Yes it is, everything is there for you to use. The tools are 'all in place' you just have to use them...

I think you're reading too much into the team-talk feedback... just because my ass-man says he didn't notice anything specific, it doesn't mean that I didn't... You would really need to see all the screenshots and view the pkm to see the full effect of the team-talks. Your ass-man's team-talk feedback is just another one of those tools I mentioned, you need to be more loose in your interpretation of it and trust your own judgement more...

oh FM11 with flex 11 skin, backgrounds and facepacks

*sigh* this is EXACTLY why I told you it's better to show the motivation info from the match, that's far more important then the team talk feedback.

But no the tools aren't all there... what do you say to a player that's complacent and has a low pressure attribute?

I already know the answer myself, do you?

*sigh* this is EXACTLY why I told you it's better to show the motivation info from the match, that's far more important then the team talk feedback.

But no the tools aren't all there... what do you say to a player that's complacent and has a low pressure attribute?

I already know the answer myself, do you?

how do I know this "low pressure attribute" ? it is not on any screen I have.... how do you know you have a player with a low pressure attribute?

I know my players, I know who reacts to what... in the example above, I don't know if you noticed but the centre-back Ben Mee had a stinker... why? because the team-talk was "you can win today" - it was the first (and last) time I used it on him... after that he always had a personal comment.

how do I know this "low pressure attribute" ? it is not on any screen I have.... how do you know you have a player with a low pressure attribute?

I know my players, I know who reacts to what... in the example above, I don't know if you noticed but the centre-back Ben Mee had a stinker... why? because the team-talk was "you can win today" - it was the first (and last) time I used it on him... after that he always had a personal comment.

Wow just looking for a way out looks like... why does there have to be a screenshot or you need a player with it? It is possible in the game and you say that all the tools are their for any situation.

But just so you can't get out of it. I have a player that gets nervous if I put pressure on him, low pressure attribute, and sure enough he was complacent one match. So what do you do? You don't have to have experience with the player himself because there are only so many options for team talks. So what do you do all mighty interaction master?

Wow just looking for a way out looks like... why does there have to be a screenshot or you need a player with it? It is possible in the game and you say that all the tools are their for any situation.

But just so you can't get out of it. I have a player that gets nervous if I put pressure on him, low pressure attribute, and sure enough one game he was complacent one match. So what do you do? You don't have to have experience with the player himself because there are only so many options for team talks. So what do you do all mighty interaction master?

Complacent how? in your ass-mans feedback pre-match or actually in the match motivation widget? Most times I'd ignore it... unless there was a specific problem that I could see such as the player in question making sloppy passes, reacting slower than he should, getting caught in possession, or whatever other ways complacency may manifest itself within the ME... in that situation it would depend on the player and what I've said to him in the past which has had a positive effect. I don't have a "one liner" for your very rigid scenario, I have a fluid combination of all of the available options and I use each of them when I feel that they are appropriate.

You have obviously found a one-liner that works on your particular player, the same one may not work on mine... different temperaments, different personalities, likely different positions, nationality, age, and many other things that could all affect my players reaction compared to yours.. as I've said, I know my players and what works for them in any given situation, unless they are new and I still have to learn how to motivate them..

I don't know about you, but I watch the full 90 on normal speed, I see what effect my team-talks have... I see where the problems are occurring and make the necessary adjustments (hopefully) before they cost me a goal... I can see complacency, it manifests itself perfectly well if it is something to worry about... most times it isn't, the players just seem more relaxed and can actually play pretty well - if you don't already watch the full 90, you should try it.. it really does give you a far better idea than all of the widgets/stats ever could of what is actually happening on the pitch.

In my experience my asst man telling me of complacency is one of the few things he gets right. But in the match, it tells you the player is complacent and you know he gets nervous if you put pressure on him.

Dude you are dodging the question so hard... the player doesn't matter its the attribute, if they have low pressure they react badly to pressure that's the entire point of concept. So what do you say when a player is feeling nervous, you say 'no pressure' (wow that's hard). But if the player is complacent saying no pressure won't help that. If you encourage him with 'have faith' or the team' you can win' it won't do anything against the complacency. All you can say to affect complacency is 'expect a win/performance' or (if available) 'pick up where you left off', but that puts pressure on the player and so he gets nervous (shocker).

This is the lack of depth in the system, all you need is more options against such things. Hell one of the options they do have for complacency is 'warn against complacency next match' end of the match talk, yet I -rarely- get that option whenever I destroy my opponent and want to use that talk.

BTW, you only have to look at the motivation display to see how players are reacting to talks and the game. Watching the match is just a representation of how well they play anyway with a bonus or penalty based on their motivation. Stop talking like you are some professor about the game. It's not as complicated as you make it out to be.

In my experience my asst man telling me of complacency is one of the few things he gets right. But in the match, it tells you the player is complacent and you know he gets nervous if you put pressure on him.

Dude you are dodging the question so hard... the player doesn't matter its the attribute, if they have low pressure they react badly to pressure that's the entire point of concept. So what do you say when a player is feel pressure nervous, you say 'no pressure' (wow that's hard). But if the player is complacent saying no pressure won't help that. If you encourage him with 'have faith' or the team' you can win' it won't do anything against the complacency. All you can say to affect complacency is 'expect a win/performance', but that puts pressure on the player and so he gets nervous (shocker).

This i sht lack of depth in the system, all you need is more options against such things. Hell one of the options they do have for complacency is 'warn against complacency next match' end of the match talk, yet I -rarely- get that option whenever I destroy my opponent and want to use that talk.

BTW, you only have to look at the motivation display to see how players are reacting to talks and the game. Watching the match is just a representation of how well they play anyway with a bonus or penalty based on their motivation. Stop talking like you are some professor about the game. It's not as complicated as you make it out to be.

I'm not dodging anything... you are missing it completely. The problem isn't the 'lack of depth' - your problem is it is too deep. You see each thing as a number... try seeing the player. Every single player in the game will react differently to the same thing said in the same situation by the same person, factor into that someone else saying the same thing to the same player and they will probably react differently again.

All you see is "low pressure attribute" and the widget telling you he is "complacent". I ask you how it was manifesting itself? What was he doing in the match that reflected his 'complacent' attitude? It is very likely that he was doing nothing wrong at all...

but if you want a one-liner for your "low-pressure, complacent player"? "disappointing"

You're still missing the point tho... you need to learn your own players reactions to every thing you say or do to be able to motivate them properly. One man's fix is another man's folly...

I'm not dodging anything... you are missing it completely. The problem isn't the 'lack of depth' - your problem is it is too deep. You see each thing as a number... try seeing the player. Every single player in the game will react differently to the same thing said in the same situation by the same person, factor into that someone else saying the same thing to the same player and they will probably react differently again.

All you see is "low pressure attribute" and the widget telling you he is "complacent". I ask you how it was manifesting itself? What was he doing in the match that reflected his 'complacent' attitude? It is very likely that he was doing nothing wrong at all...

but if you want a one-liner for your "low-pressure, complacent player"? "disappointing"

You're still missing the point tho... you need to learn your own players reactions to every thing you say or do to be able to motivate them properly. One man's fix is another man's folly...

First I know how the players react to what, and its the fact I know whats going to happen when I say one thing or another to each of them. It' very much is a lack of depth however because options are limited. You can't say 5 talks is deep nor can you talk about the players in the game like real people. They are in fact created as numbers and those numbers are specifically designed to provoke certain reactions for all the various interactions.

Obviously if a player is nervous or complacent they are not playing at their full potential and often can be seen with a low rating aside from misplacing passes, missing shots, being out of position, etc.

Disappointing... hmmm, well first that's not even a possible option at the start of a game, so there is still that hole. But beyond that the negative talks aren't always good, they can anger players if that player doesn't have a low rating because the don't think it's warranted.

However, a new talk along the lines of, don't take this match lightly or some such would be reasonable to not put pressure on a player but also try to curb complacency. That is depth, not a lack of options and impacts.

First I know how the players react to what, and its the fact I know whats going to happen when I say one thing or another to each of them. It' very much is a lack of depth however because options are limited. You can't say 5 talks is deep nor can you talk about the players in the game like real people. They are in fact created as numbers and those numbers are specifically designed to provoke certain reactions for all the various interactions.

Obviously if a player is nervous or complacent they are not playing at their full potential and often can be seen with a low rating aside from misplacing passes, missing shots, being out of position, etc.

Disappointing... hmmm, well first that's not even a possible option at the start of a game, so there is still that hole. But beyond that the negative talks aren't always good, they can anger players if that player doesn't have a low rating because the don't think it's warranted.

However, a new talk along the lines of, don't take this match lightly or some such would be reasonable to not put pressure on a player but also try to curb complacency. That is depth, not a lack of options and impacts.

"disappointing" would be half-time obviously in reaction to the complacent first-half as you asked..

But in the match, it tells you the player is complacent and you know he gets nervous if you put pressure on him.

I've already said pre-match I'd ignore it... I'd just "for the fans" or whatever the global team-talk would be... I wouldn't give him any individual team-talk pre-match at all because I would be yet to see it manifest - I trust my own judgement over my ass-mans... harsh maybe but I find I can only blame myself if I get it wrong...

Yet you talk about knowing your players so well.. so after you see one guy have a habit of getting complacent and you your asst man says it or you just expect it due to past experience you have no option. You talk so much about knowing your players so you know what team talk to make to affect them. Yet then you say you wait for the game to tell you something about the player that you should know and expect unless he's new to the team. Well when you know a guy has these two issues in combination you are shot in the foot.

Whatever the reason there is no option to handle something the game presents to you, bottom line.

I already said disappointing isn't a good one for halftime anyway because it could just make things worse, get them upset and undisciplined if they don't have a low rating.

On a side note.. 'well don't get the player with a low pressure attribute'. Yeah would be nice, but you can't tell if they have this without A: Cheating or B: it happens to be noted as their personality type. Since a personality type only shows 1 or 2 of the hidden attributes at most then all the others are a crap shoot. Pressure isn't even listed in strengths and weaknesses, so it's impossible to know until you are actually playing the player. Another fine example of lack of depth.

Yet you talk about knowing your players so well.. so after you see one guy have a habit of getting complacent and you your asst man says it or you just expect it due to past experience you have no option. You talk so much about knowing your players so you know what team talk to make to affect them. Yet then you say you wait for the game to tell you something about the player that you should know and expect unless he's new to the team. Well when you know a guy has these two issues in combination you are shot in the foot.

Whatever the reason there is no option to handle something the game presents to you, bottom line.

I already said disappointing isn't a good one for halftime anyway because it could just make things worse, get them upset and undisciplined if they don't have a low rating.

On a side note.. 'well don't get the player with a low pressure attribute'. Yeah would be nice, but you can't tell if they have this without A: Cheating or B: it happens to be noted as their personality type. Since a personality type only shows 1 or 2 of the hidden attributes at most then all the others are a crap shoot. Pressure isn't even listed in strengths and weaknesses, so it's impossible to know until you are actually playing the player. Another fine example of lack of depth.

I have no idea what you are talking about... honestly... you keep moving the goalposts, originally it was "one match" now he has a "habit"... I do wish you would make your mind up.

Either way, I would likely ignore it... ok? Why, because I don't see why not? ok..

If I see a problem on the pitch I will deal with it.. if that is "disappointing" at half-time - it will be "disappointing" at half-time. if that gets them upset or ill-disciplined then so be it, heck.. if they are playing that badly I may even substitute them at half-time.. (see above screenshots...). There are solutions to everything... you just have to find them. I don't worry about what effect my team-talk might have, I use the team-talk that I think will have the desired effect - if it works, great.. if it doesn't - I've learnt something new about my player.. either way it's a win win (even if the game is lost )

Either way, I would likely ignore it... ok? Why, because I don't see why not? ok..

LOL...ignore it, sure that makes sense.

As for going from one game to a habit... if it can happen once it can happen more then once now can't it. You're the one that's said over and over you know you players and how they react to things. Well so do I... I actually have 3-4 players that have problems with getting nervous so I have to worry all the more about complacency thanks to not having an option for the situation.

Got lover this... lol

There are solutions to everything... you just have to find them.

But wait, you just said ignore the situation... shouldn't you find the solution instead since you claim there is one?

I don't worry about what effect my team-talk might have, I use the team-talk that I think will have the desired effect

I don't know if you noticed but the centre-back Ben Mee had a stinker... why? because the team-talk was "you can win today" - it was the first (and last) time I used it on him... after that he always had a personal comment.

Obviously you do think about what effect it will have... it's just amazing that you would say you don't worry about the effect one with have and if it works as you like great... while prior to that you've been saying how well you know your players and use the ones you know work with them.

The entire point is either you actually don't know what you are talking about or you've never had to deal with the situations that can't be covered by the system.

But enough is enough... I've shown plenty that the system does not have the same depth as the actual 'personalities' (ie hidden attributes). there is no way anyone can claim that 5 team talks at the start of a match is depth of any sort. The system is shallow and needs work, it's that simple.

Martyr, in real life how would you deal with a complacent person who cant handle pressure?

For me Lazaru has it spot on, you have to learn how to deal with your players and only your players, there is no arcade way of winning this game, but at the same time you dont have to be a professor to work it all out. I learn how each player reacts to certain situations over the course of a few months and build my team talks from there, any complacency is hammered early regardless of anything, if a player cannot handle pressure situations and it clearly affects their performance then i would sell him to a lesser team, if he has that kind of personality he will never be a great player so its pointless trying.

Martyr, in real life how would you deal with a complacent person who cant handle pressure?

For me Lazaru has it spot on, you have to learn how to deal with your players and only your players, there is no arcade way of winning this game, but at the same time you dont have to be a professor to work it all out. I learn how each player reacts to certain situations over the course of a few months and build my team talks from there, any complacency is hammered early regardless of anything, if a player cannot handle pressure situations and it clearly affects their performance then i would sell him to a lesser team, if he has that kind of personality he will never be a great player so its pointless trying.

First, how do you handle complacent and nervous players IRL... "Hey, you were looking a little disinterested during warmups. This is a good team we're facing here, so try not to leave anything on the field for us, ok? Just play like we both know you can we'll have another good win for the fans."

To me that is a very distinct difference between the 'I expect you to perform' obvious pressure there, and 'have faith' or 'no pressure' which basically would make someone think it'll be even easier. Now my statement isn't an obvious 'one liner' like in game, call it 'Want you to focus'. It doesn't pressure a player but tells them not to be complacent or distracted from the game. Seems perfectly reasonable for me.

As for just selling players that don't handle pressure well... First as I mentioned, thanks to a lack of information it's for the most part impossible to know a player has that issue until you actually see it manifest on the field. But regardless, like I said... I have 3 starters on my squad that get nervous. However these players are my top striker, top AMC playmaker, and my best left back (but my fullbacks are weak over all so that's not saying much). But regardless, I don't want to sell them, because they perform wonderfully for me. Big games, better teams, whatever... it all comes down to knowing this little tidbit and I can deal with it. Simply don't pressure the team in press conferences (easy enough), and give them 'no pressure' talks if it's a bigger game or their morale isn't maxed. The striker and left back helped take my team from the German second division to promotion into the Bundesliga in my first season with them. Then the addition of the playmaker has me holding a nice midtable spot in this second season against teams with MUCH better talent.

Just because they have issues with pressure doesn't mean you can't deal with it... -MOST- of the time. But my entire point is just that the talks aren't nearly as deep as they could be. Just because I can handle the situations I have doesn't mean all situations are covered, which is what LazzruS claimed. But he's wrong, because we don't have all the tools needed for various situations that are possible, and it's not like they are situations that would be out of the control of IRL managers either.

Again, forget the entire conversation about a complacent and nervous player... how about the example I gave of the 'warn against complacency in the next match' talk. Why is it that will pop up for me when I get 2-0 win, but it won't show when I get 4 or 5-0 win. Come on, they actually have this one in game but we can't use it most the times we'd -want- to use it. The system is shallow and needs work not just with with complacency but that's the primary point of this thread.

Edit: just to be clear since I only referred to the individual talks up top...

Expect a win/performance=pressuring a team/player to perform if they're too high or complacent.

Good luck=Just go play, not going to affect complacency, can still get nervous.

You can win=Encouraging, won't affect complacency and low pressure players will still get nervous off this at times.

For the fans!=Encouraging as well but with a little extra flair. A bit more motivating then 'can win' but not as good for mid/low morale. But still no affect on complacency and can still cause nervousness.

No pressure= Obvious, good for nervousness not for complacency.

Options are too limited.

@Martyr1777: I enjoyed the way you have summarised the total impossibility of your problem after unknowingly providing the solution in your opening paragraph. As team talks continue to cause people issues, I'll post the summary which I provided in the FML forum on what many of the team talk options actually mean.

Team talks are completely context dependent, which makes a brief summary very difficult. You need to take into account:

• Recent form
  
• Player age/experience
  
• Player personality
  
• Strength of opposition
  

In terms of the talks, this is the best way of explaining them:

• We are far the better side, so I expect a win
  
• We are a better side and should win this if we remain professional, so go out and do this for the fans
  
• Although it is a tough match, if we play well we can win this
  
• The opposition are very good and in form. Good (wish) luck and try your best
  
• The opposition are far better than us. No pressure here lads. Do your best and enjoy it.
  

The no pressure team talk can also be used to take pressure off in a match you expect to win when the 'enjoy yourself' option is available. Is useful when the team has been struggling to pick up results and you fear extra pressure will cause a meltdown.

You can then choose to increase / reduce pressure on individual players you know from experience tend to react better to higher or lower expectations.

At half time, the following applies:

• No team talk (satisfied)
  
• Angry/Embarrassed (team is playing far worse than expected and needs a kick up the backside)
  
• Disappointed (team is playing badly: NB can be used when narrowly beating a team you should be dominating)
  
• For the fans (remain professional and you'll win this)
  
• Encourage (you are playing well and a slight step up in performance will ensure the result)
  
• Pleased (you are playing better than expected. Keep it up)
  
• Thrilled (you are playing far better than expected. Proud of you)
  
• Don't let your performance drop (you are winning but playing badly. Don't let them back into this)
  
• Don't get complacent (you've played OK but haven't killed off the match. Be sure you keep concentrating to the final whistle)
  
• Enjoy yourself (match is over as a contest. Go out and enjoy your football (alternatively a way of reducing pressure after nervous first half))
  

These can also pretty much translate into post match team talks as well.

LOL...ignore it, sure that makes sense.

As for going from one game to a habit... if it can happen once it can happen more then once now can't it. You're the one that's said over and over you know you players and how they react to things. Well so do I... I actually have 3-4 players that have problems with getting nervous so I have to worry all the more about complacency thanks to not having an option for the situation.

Got lover this... lol

But wait, you just said ignore the situation... shouldn't you find the solution instead since you claim there is one?

Obviously you do think about what effect it will have... it's just amazing that you would say you don't worry about the effect one with have and if it works as you like great... while prior to that you've been saying how well you know your players and use the ones you know work with them.

The entire point is either you actually don't know what you are talking about or you've never had to deal with the situations that can't be covered by the system.

But enough is enough... I've shown plenty that the system does not have the same depth as the actual 'personalities' (ie hidden attributes). there is no way anyone can claim that 5 team talks at the start of a match is depth of any sort. The system is shallow and needs work, it's that simple.

Why is ignoring it an issue with you? The information on your ass-man feedback screen is his advice to you... you don't HAVE to follow it... pre-match complacency doesn't necessarily translate into on-pitch carelessness. Similarly, complacency during the match doesn't necessarily translate itself into poor performances/multiple mistakes/etc. But it can do, it can be all of the above and more.. and if it is, then I will deal with it.

I've learned to ignore it as much as possible as I find, pre-match especially, highlighting the complacency creates nervousness (even in those players who aren't normally nervous) which almost always manifests itself in the ways mentioned above.. It is unnecessary to single out players unless you are sure of the effect...

You misunderstood me when I said that I don't worry about what effect my team-talk might have... I don't worry about the effect it might have because the intention is for the team-talk to have the desired effect... as I said, I gear all of my pre-match interactions towards a particular team-talk rather than trying to fit a team-talk to my pre-match interactions. In other words, I already know what my team-talk is going to be long before the game is played. I know which players respond to which team-talks, I know which don't.. I know the good and bad effects of each team-talk and which players may need 'extra' - I already know this before the game too... I plan my team-talk in advance and then build towards it - it's an easier way to work as I already know that the answer to every question in the press conference (for example) is the one that accurately reflects what I'm intending to tell my players pre-kick-off..

See, I don't know why I don't have a HT match-stats screenshot of the match above but if I had you would see that, even though we were losing, we shouldn't have been, fact remains we were the better team for the whole 90. It took the "correct" team-talk at half-time to fix it but fix it it most certainly did. It was the Fleetwood chavvy.. he isn't very good really but he don't half score goals for a rubbish player.. he was being a little bit 'slack' in this game before the bollocking at HT - he sorted himself out

Accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about it a tad unfair, I have a 60% win ratio from my first two seasons in charge of Hereford... I'd wager it would be a lot lower if I didn't know what I was taking about! Towards the end of season 1 my team went on a winning streak of 22 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat in the last 24 games including 12 wins in a row and 21 unbeaten to the end of the season (20 wins, the single draw comes 9 games before the end of the season). When you consider that we finished the season with 8 wins on the bounce despite being champions with 6 to go surely shows that 'complacency' didn't become an issue...

and just to complete my 'credentials' I saved the game two games before my last defeat and again after the draw... (and that was it...)

First, how do you handle complacent and nervous players IRL... "Hey, you were looking a little disinterested during warmups. This is a good team we're facing here, so try not to leave anything on the field for us, ok? Just play like we both know you can we'll have another good win for the fans."

To me that is a very distinct difference between the 'I expect you to perform' obvious pressure there, and 'have faith' or 'no pressure' which basically would make someone think it'll be even easier. Now my statement isn't an obvious 'one liner' like in game, call it 'Want you to focus'. It doesn't pressure a player but tells them not to be complacent or distracted from the game. Seems perfectly reasonable for me.

As for just selling players that don't handle pressure well... First as I mentioned, thanks to a lack of information it's for the most part impossible to know a player has that issue until you actually see it manifest on the field. But regardless, like I said... I have 3 starters on my squad that get nervous. However these players are my top striker, top AMC playmaker, and my best left back (but my fullbacks are weak over all so that's not saying much). But regardless, I don't want to sell them, because they perform wonderfully for me. Big games, better teams, whatever... it all comes down to knowing this little tidbit and I can deal with it. Simply don't pressure the team in press conferences (easy enough), and give them 'no pressure' talks if it's a bigger game or their morale isn't maxed. The striker and left back helped take my team from the German second division to promotion into the Bundesliga in my first season with them. Then the addition of the playmaker has me holding a nice midtable spot in this second season against teams with MUCH better talent.

Just because they have issues with pressure doesn't mean you can't deal with it... -MOST- of the time. But my entire point is just that the talks aren't nearly as deep as they could be. Just because I can handle the situations I have doesn't mean all situations are covered, which is what LazzruS claimed. But he's wrong, because we don't have all the tools needed for various situations that are possible, and it's not like they are situations that would be out of the control of IRL managers either.

Again, forget the entire conversation about a complacent and nervous player... how about the example I gave of the 'warn against complacency in the next match' talk. Why is it that will pop up for me when I get 2-0 win, but it won't show when I get 4 or 5-0 win. Come on, they actually have this one in game but we can't use it most the times we'd -want- to use it. The system is shallow and needs work not just with with complacency but that's the primary point of this thread.

You are too hung-up on the 'complacency' issue, imho... the players are 'expecting' a particular team-talk from you (at least mine are ) and as long as the team-talk matches the build-up then you should have very few problems... (I won't say none as we ALL have a few.. )

I still maintain that the options available in-game are adequate enough to cover almost every eventuality, especially if you are gearing your interactions towards a particular one...

now.. "warn against complacency" - do you even understand the concept of when it appears? Most times that I see it it is "half-time" in a 2 legged tie...

Edit: just to be clear since I only referred to the individual talks up top...

Expect a win/performance=pressuring a team/player to perform if they're too high or complacent.

Good luck=Just go play, not going to affect complacency, can still get nervous.

You can win=Encouraging, won't affect complacency and low pressure players will still get nervous off this at times.

For the fans!=Encouraging as well but with a little extra flair. A bit more motivating then 'can win' but not as good for mid/low morale. But still no affect on complacency and can still cause nervousness.

No pressure= Obvious, good for nervousness not for complacency.

Options are too limited.

Your concept of the team-talks differs from my own (and from wwfan's). The nervousness is not caused by the team-talk (usually - expect a win/performance *could* do) it is caused by your media interactions pre-match and your expectations.. Just because you're on a 20 game winning streak doesn't entitle your team to win every game, and your players will feel the pressure if you think that way.

I fear your use of "you can win" is causing you some problems, simply because you think it won't cause complacency... it will if it's used at the wrong time!!

Here's my take... (kinda)

Expect a win! - when I have geared my interactions towards this I have, generally, claimed that my team are far superior to the opposition...

Good Luck - horrid horrid team-talk.. I've used it twice in my whole FM career (from CM02 to present). The first time I used it? Disaster, complete and utter... second time it was my (then) ass-man's suggestion in a big game against big opposition... we romped it :\

You can win - this one's pre-match interactions tend to play down our chances, make us underdogs - it doesn't matter if we lose as we're expected to...

For the fans - my favourite.. used in the correct situations with the correct individual team-talks it can be the 'perfect' team-talk

Pressure off - big games in big arenas against big teams will tend to be nervy affairs, in this scenario I would *normally* use this team-talk to relax the players..

Obviously there are other times and other reasons why I may use any particular team-talk but rarely will they not reflect the comments I have made during pre-match media-interactions..