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Deep Lying Playmaker


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Did someone else observe quite low ratings for Deep Lying Playmakers?

My prefered system is a wide 4-2-3-1 with wingers, attacking midfielder/advanced playmaker/trequartista in the attaking midfield positions and deep lying playmaker and ball winning midfielder, poacher/complete forward as striker. mentality is attaking in most games, counter in games i'm expected to lose.

In FM2011 i've yet managed to play just two savegames. First with Bayern for 3 seasons, then chelsea for 4 seasons. Second 2 1/2 seasons with wolfsburg (with dzeko already at mancity at game start) so far. I've won several CLs, domestic cups, league cups in the first save, german cup 2 times and CL semi final in the wolfsburg save.

thus IMO the tactics serve the purpose.

but:

my DLPMs are always the players with the lowest ratings, despite playing the way they are expected to. i played schweinsteiger, hamsik, essien, sissoko, miguel veloso (for bayern and chelsea, respectively) and polak, raul garcia, andrea poli (for wolfsburg) on that position. i think they did a good job, but the ratings were ...

even in FM2010 (where i played 4-4-2 most of the time) i observed the same playing the likes of adrien, joao moutinho and again andrea poli on that position.

i consider andrea poli a very good player for that position, what do you think?? how would you use poli instead?

is it my tactics (which is working fine for me) or a general problem?

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I have the same 'issue' with Modric. I play him as a DLP only because VdV plays in the hole and Bale cuts inside alot. I make sure he runs from deep often, however. And yes, he rarely get's over a 7 rating when played there(as opposed to destroying teams as an inside forward).

You need to keep in mind that ratings are not the be all and end all. Strikers can go from a 6.8 to an 8 just for scoring a goal, implying that the rating system is not especially important. Instead, look at the DLP's pass rate completion %, assists and basically his stats in general. They are more important. And since my Modric has a 90% pass completion, i ain't complaining. But you need to view his role within the system and not as a seperate entity.

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i think what he means is, that even when the whole team plays well and get a great result, the player in the DLP position still has low ratings with all the others around him getting high ratings.

agreed...goals do have an effect but surely there must be a way for FM to recognize good performances from players like xabi alonso, pirlo, huddlestone etc in that position.

i play huddlestone as DLP, his passing accuracy is 92% but he isnt getting enough assissts

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GD?

I've no real problem with that 'issue'! Nonetheless especially Poli's morale suffers from the bad ratings, as if he's trying to deliver good performances and then gets sad when he reads his ratings in the press/media.

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I have the same 'issue' with Modric. I play him as a DLP only because VdV plays in the hole and Bale cuts inside alot. I make sure he runs from deep often, however. And yes, he rarely get's over a 7 rating when played there(as opposed to destroying teams as an inside forward).

You need to keep in mind that ratings are not the be all and end all. Strikers can go from a 6.8 to an 8 just for scoring a goal, implying that the rating system is not especially important. Instead, look at the DLP's pass rate completion %, assists and basically his stats in general. They are more important. And since my Modric has a 90% pass completion, i ain't complaining. But you need to view his role within the system and not as a seperate entity.

Is the problem maybe that the rest of the players get the final touch, or final pass, which the game doesnt take into account?

I have noticed a similar thing, i play with a deeplying playmaker and advanced playmaker, and the guy playing further up the field always gets more assists, equally as good players, but the one sitting deeper just never gets the same rating, although his passing is very good and he is always involved in the highlights.

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I've never successfully got much out of a Deep Lying Playmaker, so I've stopped using them. In fact I rarely get any good ratings out of anyone in the DM position unless I'm defensive whilst playing with 2 of them. I think it's engine that doesn't handle them very well.

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GD?

I've no real problem with that 'issue'! Nonetheless especially Poli's morale suffers from the bad ratings, as if he's trying to deliver good performances and then gets sad when he reads his ratings in the press/media.

Graham Dorrans?

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I never had a deep-lying playmaker with good ratings...A bug of some sort.They just can't play well...

There is one exception however...Miguel Veloso kicks ass.

I tried...Thiago Motta,Riccardo Montolivo,Andrea Poli,Adrien,Nuri Sahin and many others...My teams played well always,but the deep lying playmakers alway have a 6-7 rating.

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This is football. Passing, tackling, working hard and being in the right position so you don't have to tackle at all... none of these things are valued in football. Not for the general public anyways. The biggest names and the most praise are given to those who dribble, create chances and foremost those who score.

I think that Key passes, key tackles, key headers key interceptions should be valued more in this game. I want to have the possibility of at least some players having a good game even if the match ended 0-0. Right now there is a ridiculous jump in player performances once you score three goals. Two goals can still have your team at 6.9, except for the goalscorers. Three and then everyone is at 7.5, regardless of their contribution to the scoreline.

Edit: as more of an answer to the OP - if he doesn't score goals, dribble, dominate the midfield by winning every tackle and header or provide assists, he won't get a good rating. It is as simple as that. Unless you see with your own eyes that he is very important for the way your team plays, I would advice you to change or remove that role from your tactic setup.

They way I see it, a player must either contribute to stopping the opponent or to aid in your goalscoring (or both!). Having a guy out there that does neither is kind of wasted. But that is perhaps only me!

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i think what he means is, that even when the whole team plays well and get a great result, the player in the DLP position still has low ratings with all the others around him getting high ratings.

agreed...goals do have an effect but surely there must be a way for FM to recognize good performances from players like xabi alonso, pirlo, huddlestone etc in that position.

i play huddlestone as DLP, his passing accuracy is 92% but he isnt getting enough assissts

Do you not see an issue with a DLP having a passing accuracy of 92% and a low number of assists? He is playing more like a defensive midfielder than a playmaker.

He isn't playing with enough freedom, making the "safe" pass too many times. You need to widen his passing range and encourage him to play slightly riskier balls (without pushing him too much into the suicidal pass zone) then you'll see an improvement.

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Do you not see an issue with a DLP having a passing accuracy of 92% and a low number of assists? He is playing more like a defensive midfielder than a playmaker.

He isn't playing with enough freedom, making the "safe" pass too many times. You need to widen his passing range and encourage him to play slightly riskier balls (without pushing him too much into the suicidal pass zone) then you'll see an improvement.

I think this reflects the situation in real life. DLPs I'd imagine often have the second-last pass (say, to a winger) rather than the last one that counts as an assist (say, a cross from that winger). DLPs aren't often in the right positions to cross or play a through-ball. I watched Xabi Alonso for years at Liverpool. Although he was a key player and undoubtedly one of the top DLPs in the world, I don't remember him getting direct assists all that often. He initiated the moves, but rarely had the last or second-last touch.

The problem with the ME not measuring this kind of contribution accurately in its ratings is another matter.

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I think this reflects the situation in real life. DLPs I'd imagine often have the second-last pass (say, to a winger) rather than the last one that counts as an assist (say, a cross from that winger). DLPs aren't often in the right positions to cross or play a through-ball. I watched Xabi Alonso for years at Liverpool. Although he was a key player and undoubtedly one of the top DLPs in the world, I don't remember him getting direct assists all that often. He initiated the moves, but rarely had the last or second-last touch.

The problem with the ME not measuring this kind of contribution accurately in its ratings is another matter.

The second-last pass would be a key pass, and along with a few key tackles and interceptions that should definitely give him a good rating in my opinion.

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This is a contextual issue that match ratings don't capture. My DLP hardly ever gets an assist, but has a passing accuracy of 90-93%, depending on the season / player. He also runs his socks off and wins a lot of ball in midfield. However, his main job is to feed the four players in front of him when they are in space or ensure the team keeps the ball / brings the FBs into play when they aren't. He does this almost perfectly.

If there was a 2nd assist category, as in ice hockey, I'm sure his assist ratings would be through the roof as he regularly lays off the pass prior to the assist pass, which is how I visualised his role when putting my tactical strategy together. I ignore his match ratings of high 6s / low 7s and look at other stats and the match action / analysis to see how well he is playing.

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The problem player in my thread about wages & squad status is a left-winger who's accomplished in attacking midfield.

His role in my squad is to add some much needed flair to the attack and I brought him in to play in the attacking midfield spot.

Despite having almost-ideal stats for that position (relative to the league I'm in) he never gets good match ratings there.

By accident rather than by design, I found he performed best in a central midfield defensive role or deep-lying playmaker support role, (despite being very lightweight with next-to-no defensive qualities at all) where, when attacking, he would hang about midway in the opponents half unmarked time and time again, allowing him to pick up every half-cleared ball with time to pick a pass, cross or long shot.

He's a huge success at the moment, but I'm wondering if, when I get promoted, his lack of defensive ability will be exposed as I dominate the games less easily.

EDIT

In general, though I find it very hard to get central midfielders to pick up good match ratings - which is what prompted me to play about with his roles.

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This is a contextual issue that match ratings don't capture. My DLP hardly ever gets an assist, but has a passing accuracy of 90-93%, depending on the season / player. He also runs his socks off and wins a lot of ball in midfield. However, his main job is to feed the four players in front of him when they are in space or ensure the team keeps the ball / brings the FBs into play when they aren't. He does this almost perfectly.

If there was a 2nd assist category, as in ice hockey, I'm sure his assist ratings would be through the roof as he regularly lays off the pass prior to the assist pass, which is how I visualised his role when putting my tactical strategy together. I ignore his match ratings of high 6s / low 7s and look at other stats and the match action / analysis to see how well he is playing.

Same with my DLP. However, I do see it as an issue with the game not being able to produce the correct ratings for the different positions. The ratings are there for a reason, and if not, it could be taken out of the game altogether.

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Part of the problem is also that while we can ignore bad ratings if he performs well (according to our match plans), the computer doesn't. Media will be critical towards him, the fans and board will think he is a poor choice, and his own morale will suffer

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Did someone else observe quite low ratings for Deep Lying Playmakers?

My prefered system is a wide 4-2-3-1 with wingers, attacking midfielder/advanced playmaker/trequartista in the attaking midfield positions and deep lying playmaker and ball winning midfielder, poacher/complete forward as striker. mentality is attaking in most games, counter in games i'm expected to lose.

Is your DLP set up as the primary playmaker? I had problems with mine in a similar setup because my AML was set up as the primary playmaker, which meant my DLP was being ignored. Once I switched those, the team seemed to funnel more play through him and it worked better. I wonder if your team is circumventing your DLP and going right for the trequartista or the AP. If that's the case, it explains the high passing % (your DLP is looking for the playmaker, not making plays on his own, so most of his passes are to that person and not more risky through balls) and the low rating (he's not taking any risks, so is rarely getting assists or scoring).

I'm not saying that's definitely the problem, but it sounds like you may have too many playmakers in the mix; maybe check that out?

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