Red card countereffect?(Patch 11.3)

I don't know whether any of you are experiencing this,but when the opposite team gets red carded they absolutely dominate my team.I'm usually the better team until that point,but after they get red carded they suddenly become Shaolin soccer.Is this a common problem?

How many times has this occured?

Many,like 10 times.

90% when they get a red...

Do you watch many games IRL? I find that when a team goes down to 10 men, they often play better simply because they need to try harder.

Do you watch many games IRL? I find that when a team goes down to 10 men, they often play better simply because they need to try harder.

Yeah,I watch plenty of football but this is not realistic.

Just before I made this thread I was leading Serie A with Roma and playing Atalanta who is 1 place off relegation.Was 2-0 already after 20 minutes and they got a red.Lost 4-3...And I scored the 3rd in stopagge time.And I've conceded just 16 goals in 34 mathes...

I have seen both...I have had to play against 10 men, and absolutely thrashed them, but in my last game, we had a man sent off, at 1-1 and ended up beating them 4-1. I will however try and take all the credit, by changing the tactics to long and direct counter attacking, and it worked. I think when a sending off happens, you need to watch the game, and figure out a way to win the game, unless of course it is by then, out of reach.

The computer AL will make changes, and those changes may unsettle you, so you need to change to.

lol at calling the computer "AL"

As for this phenomenon? It's pretty common in real football. There's a reason the phrase "It's harder to play against 10 men than 11" is a cliché.

I don't know whether any of you are experiencing this,but when the opposite team gets red carded they absolutely dominate my team.I'm usually the better team until that point,but after they get red carded they suddenly become Shaolin soccer.Is this a common problem?

I'd say, it's not because they suddenly become super human.

It's because they have changed their tactics to a quicker counter-attacking style and most likely you have not countered that threat. They are sitting deep and quickly countering. More than likely, you have thought... "great, only 10 men, now I can go offensive and dominate them." Have you really watched what they are doing?

I'd suggest, your basically being outplayed. Your getting cocky and just expecting the win without having to work for it.

My tactics are not the issue so don't waste your time replying based on that.

Regardless of my tactics the same always happens...

My tactics are not the issue so don't waste your time replying based on that.

Regardless of my tactics the same always happens...

edit: comment withdrawn....

It is pretty obvious that I don't have an answer as I made the thread.It is also obvious that the first thing that came to my mind is to correct my tactics...

I find the same thing happening. A red card for the opposition seemingly has no positive effect on your side. (Morale never goes up for any player in the widgets... ridiculous.)

I also find that complacency doesn't affect computer teams. People can say what they like but I did a test with my very good championship squad.

16 games in, top of the league, I came up against Scunthorpe who were bottom of the league with 10 goals in 26 games. I lost 3-1.

I replayed this match 15 times, with various teamtalks, an understrength squad, etc. never won it. Managed to draw three times.

I played it ONCE, with adding a new user as the Scunthorpe manager and I followed the AI management of the Scunthorpe team and fielded exactly the same side, as they had in the other 15 tries.

My top of the league team won 4-0.

This is clearly not down to AI management vs my management. It is simply some dumbass complacency calculation, levied against player managers.

Haven't noticed anything like this to be fair. As soon as the opposition lose a man I play wider and at a higher tempo and more often than not go onto win the game.

I find the same thing happening. A red card for the opposition seemingly has no positive effect on your side. (Morale never goes up for any player in the widgets... ridiculous.)

I also find that complacency doesn't affect computer teams. People can say what they like but I did a test with my very good championship squad.

16 games in, top of the league, I came up against Scunthorpe who were bottom of the league with 10 goals in 26 games. I lost 3-1.

I replayed this match 15 times, with various teamtalks, an understrength squad, etc. never won it. Managed to draw three times.

I played it ONCE, with adding a new user as the Scunthorpe manager and I followed the AI management of the Scunthorpe team and fielded exactly the same side, as they had in the other 15 tries.

My top of the league team won 4-0.

This is clearly not down to AI management vs my management. It is simply some dumbass complacency calculation, levied against player managers.

Ooookayyyy.... but!!, what has this to do with the topic at hand?

It has to do with the match engine giving non-player teams a massive bonus to make up for bad programming that would mean 4-0 drubbings every time a player gets sent off.

It has to do with the match engine giving non-player teams a massive bonus to make up for bad programming that would mean 4-0 drubbings every time a player gets sent off.

Every time!! are you sure about that.

Because, that has never happened to me on 11.3. I can't quote exact figures, but I'd guess I have a player sent off on the opposition team maybe 15 to 20 times since the new patch. Not once have I been beaten 4-0?? What does this say about your theory? Or even come close to being thrashed. Yes , a few times I've struggled to break them down...but hammered...hmmm, no!

Or anything remotely close to what you are suggesting. Every time.... balderdash!!

Every time!! are you sure about that.

Because, that has never happened to me on 11.3. I can't quote exact figures, but I'd guess I have a player sent off on the opposition team maybe 15 to 20 times since the new patch. Not once have I been beaten 4-0?? What does this say about your theory?

Or anything remotely close to what you are suggesting. Every time.... balderdash!!

That's not what I said. I said match engines gives a bonus to computer (ie-non player) teams after getting a red card that would PREVENT the computer getting drubbed 4-0.

That's not what I said. I said match engines gives a bonus to computer (ie-non player) teams after getting a red card that would PREVENT the computer getting drubbed 4-0.

Well Glen, I suggest you read the OP of this thread..... as that is what this is about...

Have you read the OP? It's about computer teams getting red cards and producing ridiculous performances, not necessarily beating human players, but leading to dominating performances... by ten players.

My post is about why I think this is.

Every time!! are you sure about that.

Because, that has never happened to me on 11.3. I can't quote exact figures, but I'd guess I have a player sent off on the opposition team maybe 15 to 20 times since the new patch. Not once have I been beaten 4-0?? What does this say about your theory? Or even come close to being thrashed. Yes , a few times I've struggled to break them down...but hammered...hmmm, no!

Or anything remotely close to what you are suggesting. Every time.... balderdash!!

Seeing as you got completely the wrong end of the stick... think about when was the last time you absolutely thrashed a team after them getting a player sent off?

It has to do with the match engine giving non-player teams a massive bonus to make up for bad programming that would mean 4-0 drubbings every time a player gets sent off.

You know, in the real world it's probably more uncommon for a team to get thrashed 4-0 after a sending off than it is in FM. I'll say again: the cliché "it's harder to play against 10 men than 11" exists for a reason.

Real Madrid 4 - Tottenham Hotspur 0.

(and that's just off the top of my head in the last 7 days.)

Seeing as you got completely the wrong end of the stick... think about when was the last time you absolutely thrashed a team after them getting a player sent off?

I did not get the "wrong end of the stick" as the last time I came up against 10 men, the result was 6-1 in my favour. Mind you it was Sporting C.P vs Olhanense in the Taca de Portugal

But that aside, me not being a perfect manager, I accept tough results will happen. But to suggest, the game is actually coded to favour teams a man short is incredulous! As I said in a previous post, it is more to do with teams , when going a man down in FM, tend to play a more direct counter style. If you don't counter that and just assume your going to win because your man up, your going to disappointed a hell of a lot playing that way.

and the sooner you accept that, the better manager you might be!

Real Madrid 4 - Tottenham Hotspur 0.

(and that's just off the top of my head in the last 7 days.)

Oh WOW one game. And Real Madrid are a better team anyway. And was already winning when Crouch was sent off.

Tottenham 3 - 4 Man City - FA Cup 2004

Spurs Leading 3-0 at half time. Barton gets sent off for City. 10 man City come back and win 4-3. That is so unrealistic! Oh wait it was real life

I did not get the "wrong end of the stick" as the last time I came up against 10 men, the result was 6-1 in my favour. Mind you it was Sporting C.P vs Olhanense in the Taca de Portugal

But that aside, me not being a perfect manager, I accept tough results will happen. But to suggest, the game is actually coded to favour teams a man short is incredulous! As I said in a previous post, it is more to do with teams , when going a man down in FM, tend to play a more direct counter style. If you don't counter that and just assume your going to win because your man up, your going to disappointed a hell of a lot playing that way.

and the sooner you accept that, the better manager you might be!

Yes, they do go to a counter attacking strategy they ALSO perform better, almost without exception. No loss of morale, no dropping of heads. Unless your team was vastly superior anyway prior to the other team anyway, which I'm guessing your Sporting team were as I've never even heard of the other guys.

If you want to suggest I'm a bad manger, fine. Your opinion. My opinion is that I reckon that the match engine "balance" needed some sort of tweaking after the computer gets red cards, otherwise piling on the pressure would work much more often then it does.

Real Madrid were winning, yeah, but Tottenham seemed dejected after they had the sending off. (Even Mourhinho looked sorry for Crouch) That sort of stuff never happens in game. I have never seen a team lose morale after getting a sending off. Even their captain. So maybe it's a flaw in programming rather than a deliberate tweak, but it's there.

I've noticed it many times myself. Everytime the AI goes down a man they start playing far far better than with 11 men and often start dominating the game. Not sure why but it happens all the time in my game.

I usually end up winning the game but the change is dramatic so much so that when one of the AI players get's a yellow I pray they don't get a second one

On one occasion I was outplaying the opposition handily then in short order the AI went down to 9 men (LB and RB sent off), it played with only the two center backs in defense and played a 2-4-2. I countered by playing wider, down the wings and patiently and had an incredible difficult time controlling possession. No scientific evidence to back this hunch but I think something "funny" happens when the AI goes down a man.

I agree with the OP's observation: there are never any bad side-effects for the opponent when they get a red card. There isn't more space on the pitch for you to exploit, and they don't get a morale penalty (or you a boost). Rather, it is you who give up more space and get a morale penalty when they get a red card. While I agree that in RL the team that gets a red card often answer by working even harder and being even more determined to win, this is clearly too one-sided in FM. Newcastle was under 0-4 against Arsenal when the Gunners had a man sent off, and the match ended 4-4. I have never seen anything like this in FM11.

As it is now, the positive effect of having a man sent off (for them, not us, mind you!) defies logic since if they play so incredibly well with 10 men - why not just start the game with 10 and be invincible then? If there is no negative effect from playing with one man less, there is nothing to lose... When I create 20 chances the first 50 minutes, scoring two goals, and they get a red card, I know that the best thing I can do is to change to an ultradefensive tactic hoping that I survive the barrage the last 40 minutes of the game.

It shouldn't be like this. Only players with 16+ Determination, 16+ Pressure and other World-class mental stats should react positively to having a man down when being under two goals. And certainly not whole teams as an automatic reaction.

2nd of April, Reading 2 Portsmouth 0 - Pompey played 54 minutes with 10 men and were already a goal down by that point.

3rd of April, Wolfsburg 1 Eintracht Frankfurt 1 - Wolfsburg went down to 10 on 70 minutes, equalised on 85.

9th of April, Hannover 96 2 FC Mainz 0 - Mainz played the entire second half with 10

9th of April, Freiburg 3 Hoffenheim 2 - Freiburg had a man sent off on 33 minutes

10th of April, Palermo 2 Cesena 2 - Cesena had a man sent off on 74, then one on 77, then a third on 90. They were 2-0 down until stoppage time.

(All real-life scores from the last couple of weeks)

I'm not saying it happens every time, and your anecdotal evidence combined with other people's anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that it doesn't happen every time in FM, either.

2nd of April, Reading 2 Portsmouth 0 - Pompey played 54 minutes with 10 men and were already a goal down by that point.

3rd of April, Wolfsburg 1 Eintracht Frankfurt 1 - Wolfsburg went down to 10 on 70 minutes, equalised on 85.

9th of April, Hannover 96 2 FC Mainz 0 - Mainz played the entire second half with 10

9th of April, Freiburg 3 Hoffenheim 2 - Freiburg had a man sent off on 33 minutes

10th of April, Palermo 2 Cesena 2 - Cesena had a man sent off on 74, then one on 77, then a third on 90. They were 2-0 down until stoppage time.

(All real-life scores from the last couple of weeks)

I'm not saying it happens every time, and your anecdotal evidence combined with other people's anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that it doesn't happen every time in FM, either.

The only team there with a red that won the game you haven't said when they scored... Frieburg got a penalty without which they probably wouldn't have been able to stage a comeback but whatever... the point I've been making is not so much about the result, but the way the computer players get a boost after a sending off.

We know crazy stuff happens in football. The point that me, the OP and others are trying to illustrate is that despite going a man down, the computer ALWAYS plays well. Hell, I'd be happier they played BADLY but still managed to claw it back through luck or my players suddenly all simultaneously having a cerebral embolism.

I've still beaten the computer (by slim margins, always) on occasion when they got a red card. Deep in my heart though, I know I should have destroyed them... This is what we've all been trying to point out.

I noticed this, not that you always lose or they perform better, only that it makes no differnce to the performance. It also makes no difference if you get a player sent off either, as long as you keep the same amount of numbers in defence. I have a theory why but its off topic.

We know crazy stuff happens in football. The point that me, the OP and others are trying to illustrate is that despite going a man down, the computer ALWAYS plays well.

Surely just the fact that there are other people who have experienced the opposite of this means that your statement cannot be true? Or is somehow one side of the anecdotal evidence far more relevant than the other side of the anecdotal evidence?

Surely just the fact that there are other people who have experienced the opposite of this means that your statement cannot be true? Or is somehow one side of the anecdotal evidence far more relevant than the other side of the anecdotal evidence?

No-one has yet said they've seen a computer side go a man down and they've noticed the computer plays badly. Only better and no difference so far.

I have seen both...I have had to play against 10 men, and absolutely thrashed them, but in my last game, we had a man sent off, at 1-1 and ended up beating them 4-1. I will however try and take all the credit, by changing the tactics to long and direct counter attacking, and it worked. I think when a sending off happens, you need to watch the game, and figure out a way to win the game, unless of course it is by then, out of reach.

The computer AL will make changes, and those changes may unsettle you, so you need to change to.

One

I did not get the "wrong end of the stick" as the last time I came up against 10 men, the result was 6-1 in my favour. Mind you it was Sporting C.P vs Olhanense in the Taca de Portugal

But that aside, me not being a perfect manager, I accept tough results will happen. But to suggest, the game is actually coded to favour teams a man short is incredulous! As I said in a previous post, it is more to do with teams , when going a man down in FM, tend to play a more direct counter style. If you don't counter that and just assume your going to win because your man up, your going to disappointed a hell of a lot playing that way.

and the sooner you accept that, the better manager you might be!

And two. Plus myself, I think that we can now rule out "ALWAYS", yes?

Hate to say it, but it may well be your tactics. When a team loses a player, they may well change shape or adapt in such a way (counter attack, narrow, deep defensive lines) which make your attacking play work against you. It's very much something to bear in mind - if you can keep the ball more you have more chance of wearing them down, but with 10 men, 9 men or even 12 men (unlikely I know! ) there's always a chance of a team scoring on the break. Just because you have the extra man doesn't guarantee goals and a win, you have to make the most of it. Also make sure your players remain motivated!

This has nothing to do with tactics.

It's not about the result.

It is about the computer never getting worse after a red card. And never folding in an obvious way because they went a man down. Which happens in football.

Well this discussion went way deeper than my understanding of how the game works goes I like not too think about it like that because it takes away the joy of football...

Anyway,I understand that it is not uncommon for things like that to happen IRL,but I don't think I've managed to win a single game against a red carded team.And I've been 3-0 up...My team even finds it hard to move the play to the opponents half.

Their pressing goes balistic,they close my players down as soon as they get the ball anywhere on the filed as they have 12 players instead of 10 (I've even tried counting them LOL).The result is always the same,after the red all they do is attack for the rest of the game with me barely getting a shot on goal.

Maybe AI is randomizing it,but the randomization just turned out to be like that (like 1 in a 1000000000 odds),I can't explain it otherwise.I thought it was a bug,but apparently it only happens to me...

One

And two. Plus myself, I think that we can now rule out "ALWAYS", yes?

You're just saying you beat them, not that they didn't play better. Results are irrelevant in this discussion.

I think people already proved the "never" part wrong. However, i must agree i've been struck by the OP's observations from time to time as well. In earlier versions of FM, getting a red card meant it was going to be a really tough match to hang on to a lead or catch up. In this version the red card seems to have less of an impact. Not to the point where it is unrealistic or broken, but certainly different from the earlier versions of the game.

I have indeed had a few games where it's been 50/50 up until they went down to 10, and then I've dominated the rest of the game.

Edit: Also there is another reason anecdotal evidence isn't of all that much use in proving anything. The fact is that negative memories tend to leave a more lasting impression than positive ones, therefore it's quite easy for someone to say "it always happens to me" when in actual fact it's their memories which are playing tricks on them.

I think people already proved the "never" part wrong. However, i must agree i've been struck by the OP's observations from time to time as well. In earlier versions of FM, getting a red card meant it was going to be a really tough match to hang on to a lead or catch up. In this version the red card seems to have less of an impact. Not to the point where it is unrealistic or broken, but certainly different from the earlier versions of the game.

How many managers playing teams in the same league see their opposition get a red card and think "well it's going to be tough to hang onto a lead now"?

I have indeed had a few games where it's been 50/50 up until they went down to 10, and then I've dominated the rest of the game.

Edit: Also there is another reason anecdotal evidence isn't of all that much use in proving anything. The fact is that negative memories tend to leave a more lasting impression than positive ones, therefore it's quite easy for someone to say "it always happens to me" when in actual fact it's their memories which are playing tricks on them.

Did the computer play worse or did you just play better? I suppose everything is subjective. I could say that your positive memories of winning are overriding your memories of the computer playing better after the red card.

anecdotal evidence though it is... people are actually worried when the computer gets a red card. Learned behavior like this is not without reason.

How many managers playing teams in the same league see their opposition get a red card and think "well it's going to be tough to hang onto a lead now"?

That's your view, not mine. I personally feel I play better against 10 compared to 11. But I'm not seeing the dominance i would expect based on previous experience with the game.

Go through your savegame, find all matches the opponent received a red card, and note on a piece of paper if your team did better or worse than before the red card. I think good old confirmation bias may be playing tricks on you.

That's your view, not mine. I personally feel I play better against 10 compared to 11. But I'm not seeing the dominance i would expect based on previous experience with the game.

Go through your savegame, find all matches the opponent received a red card, and note on a piece of paper if your team did better or worse than before the red card. I think good old confirmation bias may be playing tricks on you.

It wouldn't prove my point either way.

the computer can still play better, and not score. But anyway I checked, and the first one I came across was vs tranmere, they had a player sent off on 33, scored on 55 and dominated the rest of the game.

I don't see this problem.

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Those results aren't proof of not having the "problem" lets see the stats for all the players for those games...

Those results aren't proof of not having the "problem" lets see the stats for all the players for those games...

vs W Brom possession 57% shots on target 11-4

vs W ham 55% 8-2

vs Liv 55% 7-4

Now i suppose you'll say oh that doesn't prove anything you probably had 90% possession until the sending off and then they dominated after that?

I don't see this problem.

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I see you scored 2 important goals against West Ham

vs W Brom possession 57% shots on target 11-4

vs W ham 55% 8-2

vs Liv 55% 7-4

Now i suppose you'll say oh that doesn't prove anything you probably had 90% possession until the sending off and then they dominated after that?

I was actually going to point out that I thought you'd point this out, I now fully realise there's no way to "prove" it either way with overall stats.

I don't want to argue over screenshots, but if you're telling me you see a drop in form from the computer after the computer gets a player sent off then I really have no argument against it. I'm yet to see a serious drop in form after a computer player gets sent off. In any FM. Others have noticed it too. You can still win, no-one is saying it's game breaking or anything. Just that it seriously seems harder against 10 men. Though I play the steam version and since they only got round to updating it to 11.3 recently and I deleted my old games to start again, So I've not got a massive amount of matches to look back at.

I don't think the drop in performance is what it should be...but i had more problems in previous versions in this regard.

I'm not going to say this is a regular thing like the OP, but there are times when it gets a little.. well stupid.

I didn't have a game -once- where the opposition went down 2-0 and got TWO reds all in the first half. Second half then come back and score 3, looking at my sides motivation they were all 'playing with confidence' or 'looks motivated' not a single 'looks disinterested' so it wasn't simple complacency and at the time my team what the most dominate in the league with the lost conceded total.

I don't know why it would be but there are are some questions to be asked about how strong teams play when they get a red, or more.