regen creation re nations and regions and teams, two development suggestions

I wasn't really sure where to put this but I think this is the best place.

Are a regens attributes influenced by the country, region or team they come from? I will do an example for each one to explain what I mean.

National: Latin players tend to be a lot more gifted technically than the UK and I think that comes across (I *think*), but do they also dive and feign injury more (aka is thier sportsmanship rating naturally lower than 10?)? Are English players more physical with more of an emphasis on strength and speed than technique?

Regional: The Basque Country and Catalunya in Spain tend to specialise in exceptional passers of the ball, so do those regions produce more players of that ilk? Also are Basques taller and stronger than your average Spaniard? Are Argentines smaller on average than most Latin players?

Clubs: Do Barcelona produce players with a good first touch, better than average passing and higher off the ball movement and teamwork than your average club and with more players with the 'plays one-twos' PPM as is the ethos of thier cantera? Do they also produce a higher percentage of players similar to Xavi? They seem to in real life with many of Spains top midfield playmakers coming through La Masia at some point in thier life.

If not, are there plans to do this in later versions?

My two suggestions are about academies and national teams.

Firstly, I think it would be neat if as a manager I got more say in what my academy does. I'm not saying I'd like super indepth control but I'd like some input into the types of players it produces. Perhaps if the academy were made another tab along side the reserve and u18/19/20 teams. Maybe some sliders or something, to decide if you want to emphasise technique or passing or physical attributes, a style of play, PPMs to fit in with that like the Barca Q above. Like United like to play with width traditionally but the regens don't really convey this, they never have 'hugs touchline' or dribbles down left or cuts inside or whatever. I'd like to be able to suggest that and perhaps it could increase the output of that type of player. A soloution might be that you could suggest a select few of the player types you get in the tactics screen for the academies to focus on like deep playmaker, inside forward and box-to-box midfielder. *shrugs*, there's more that could be done there, lots of room to really craft a football team into something that reflects your management and club ethos like Wenger did at Arsenal for example. Maybe suggesting a couple of tactical loadouts to train them in so they come out the academies ready to go unlike now where you have to be doing it in the U-18s and it takes a lot of time to get them to learn moves and formations.

Secondly I'd like to be able if I'm manager of a national team to be able to use the youth levels to teach the prospects what is expected of them in the first team, like what Argentina do. They use the youth levels and make them play in the same style as the first team so that they can just drop into a position right out the u-20s like Banega did for example. It also allows for a crash course in the playing style and identity of the team for people who did not spend as much time in argentina or play a totally different style at club level. You can't seem to do that in FM because the U-20 guys ruin everything unlike at club level where you can [usually] still set some kind of way via team settings to play like the first team at least a little. Further to that perhaps like the academies above if your nation has one (and if it doesnt but you have the dough maybe you could suggest it makes one) you can interact with the national centres like Clairefontaine or whatever they're building in England now. You could do all the stuff I said above and raise the level of regens your country produces... possibly. Country might suck or you might not get backing from the FA/Clubs.

Finally. Do do Youth coaches only work with players on youth contracts or up to 21 years old? I ask because I find in FM11 now most of my players only spend a year at best on a youth deal and as such my youth set up is wasted. At Real Sociedad I have no goalkeepers training with my coaches at a youth level. This isn't such a big deal for GK's but at 1st team level my coaches do not have a very high youngsters rating, are my 16 year olds on pro deals suffering? Perhaps only people actually in the first team/reserves should work with 1st team coaches, or under a certain age. I can't really tell what is going on.

Just something to throw around.

Wow this is nothing in size compared to my other one and that got some responses, nobody likes talking here...

Anyway, further to the academies thing. I was thinking... What if the game made regens sooner than 14-16? The way I was seeing the Academy page in my head was a bit like the overview screen with lots of little windows and sliders and stuff and I thought what if one box was of top prospects currently in the academy and a star rating and some other stuff (age, height, nationality, position etc). Obviously you would have no direct interaction with these players (I'd perfer to avoid the whole poaching thing) but you can see thier profile and what not but anyway. Point was it'd be neat to see people coming through the system you can get excited about like how IRL I know I am looking forward to Kenji Gorre and Rhain Davis coming up through the system and I imagine people like Barca fans have a few kids they're looking forward too. It would be cool if this could be... like how if there's a kid who is 13 and 6ft and 200lbs and quick and people rave over them, you see it all the time, but as they progress up the ranks the playing field evens out and thier actual lack of talent begins to emerge until they're usually dumped by academies. We've all heard of them. Who was that CM legend who did that? At 16/17 he was ridiculous (IRL and in CM) but now he's in his 20s he's a nobody, as evidenced by the fact I can't even remember his name. Cherno Samba!

Does that make sense? It sounds a bit... wierd putting it down on paper... I think. I hope it makes sense. It'd be even better if you could get more real life youngsters as well and not just restrict it to regens.

Firstly, I think it would be neat if as a manager I got more say in what my academy does. I'm not saying I'd like super indepth control but I'd like some input into the types of players it produces. Perhaps if the academy were made another tab along side the reserve and u18/19/20 teams. Maybe some sliders or something, to decide if you want to emphasise technique or passing or physical attributes, a style of play, PPMs to fit in with that like the Barca Q above. Like United like to play with width traditionally but the regens don't really convey this, they never have 'hugs touchline' or dribbles down left or cuts inside or whatever. I'd like to be able to suggest that and perhaps it could increase the output of that type of player. A soloution might be that you could suggest a select few of the player types you get in the tactics screen for the academies to focus on like deep playmaker, inside forward and box-to-box midfielder. *shrugs*, there's more that could be done there, lots of room to really craft a football team into something that reflects your management and club ethos like Wenger did at Arsenal for example. Maybe suggesting a couple of tactical loadouts to train them in so they come out the academies ready to go unlike now where you have to be doing it in the U-18s and it takes a lot of time to get them to learn moves and formations.

I like the more control over the youth academy idea and I also think that as you say, the youth players that are coming out of Barca's youth team (La Masia) should start with higher passing and technique compared to other nations.

I agree - great idea. Stick it in the wishlist and the SI staff will see it.

More control over direction of youth academy... Though this might be something that you only get to influence as you've been at the club a certain amount of time: for example like when asking for feeder clubs... the longer you're at the club, the more flexibility the board give you! I reckon you should really have had to have been at the club for 1-2 years before you can say "look, I'd love to change the focus of the youth set-up"

What's a wishlist?

What's a wishlist?

A list of wishes.

Wow... just wow.

I wasn't really sure where to put this but I think this is the best place.

Are a regens attributes influenced by the country, region or team they come from? I will do an example for each one to explain what I mean.

National: Latin players tend to be a lot more gifted technically than the UK and I think that comes across (I *think*), but do they also dive and feign injury more (aka is thier sportsmanship rating naturally lower than 10?)? Are English players more physical with more of an emphasis on strength and speed than technique?

Yes, English players generally have a higher proportion of their CA "spent" on physical attributes than other countries of similar footballing standing. I do not know whether this reflects across to personality attributes though.

Regional: The Basque Country and Catalunya in Spain tend to specialise in exceptional passers of the ball, so do those regions produce more players of that ilk? Also are Basques taller and stronger than your average Spaniard? Are Argentines smaller on average than most Latin players?

Catalunya isn't in the game, but as many players from the region go through Barcelona's academy, which is one of the best in the game, I imagine they'll be better on average than your typical Spaniard. Athletic Bilbao also have a very good academy, so a similar effect will be seen there. I do not know whether jumping and strength are coded to be higher for Basque players, likewise whether national average heights are incorporated into the game.

Clubs: Do Barcelona produce players with a good first touch, better than average passing and higher off the ball movement and teamwork than your average club and with more players with the 'plays one-twos' PPM as is the ethos of thier cantera? Do they also produce a higher percentage of players similar to Xavi? They seem to in real life with many of Spains top midfield playmakers coming through La Masia at some point in thier life.

Not directly coded for as far as I know.

Firstly, I think it would be neat if as a manager I got more say in what my academy does. I'm not saying I'd like super indepth control but I'd like some input into the types of players it produces. Perhaps if the academy were made another tab along side the reserve and u18/19/20 teams. Maybe some sliders or something, to decide if you want to emphasise technique or passing or physical attributes, a style of play, PPMs to fit in with that like the Barca Q above. Like United like to play with width traditionally but the regens don't really convey this, they never have 'hugs touchline' or dribbles down left or cuts inside or whatever. I'd like to be able to suggest that and perhaps it could increase the output of that type of player. A soloution might be that you could suggest a select few of the player types you get in the tactics screen for the academies to focus on like deep playmaker, inside forward and box-to-box midfielder. *shrugs*, there's more that could be done there, lots of room to really craft a football team into something that reflects your management and club ethos like Wenger did at Arsenal for example. Maybe suggesting a couple of tactical loadouts to train them in so they come out the academies ready to go unlike now where you have to be doing it in the U-18s and it takes a lot of time to get them to learn moves and formations.

I really like this idea.

Secondly I'd like to be able if I'm manager of a national team to be able to use the youth levels to teach the prospects what is expected of them in the first team, like what Argentina do. They use the youth levels and make them play in the same style as the first team so that they can just drop into a position right out the u-20s like Banega did for example. It also allows for a crash course in the playing style and identity of the team for people who did not spend as much time in argentina or play a totally different style at club level. You can't seem to do that in FM because the U-20 guys ruin everything unlike at club level where you can [usually] still set some kind of way via team settings to play like the first team at least a little. Further to that perhaps like the academies above if your nation has one (and if it doesnt but you have the dough maybe you could suggest it makes one) you can interact with the national centres like Clairefontaine or whatever they're building in England now. You could do all the stuff I said above and raise the level of regens your country produces... possibly. Country might suck or you might not get backing from the FA/Clubs.

I like the "interact with national centres" idea. If you want to control your youth sides, you can sack the manager and take control.

Finally. Do do Youth coaches only work with players on youth contracts or up to 21 years old? I ask because I find in FM11 now most of my players only spend a year at best on a youth deal and as such my youth set up is wasted. At Real Sociedad I have no goalkeepers training with my coaches at a youth level. This isn't such a big deal for GK's but at 1st team level my coaches do not have a very high youngsters rating, are my 16 year olds on pro deals suffering? Perhaps only people actually in the first team/reserves should work with 1st team coaches, or under a certain age. I can't really tell what is going on.

I believe it is related to their contract, but I'm not sure, I think players on youth contracts but in the first team squad might be "fast tracked". Maybe there should be a piece of text in-game to explain it?

I've tagged this thread as an FM-suggestion, now SI should definitely see it.

Wow this is nothing in size compared to my other one and that got some responses, nobody likes talking here...

Anyway, further to the academies thing. I was thinking... What if the game made regens sooner than 14-16? The way I was seeing the Academy page in my head was a bit like the overview screen with lots of little windows and sliders and stuff and I thought what if one box was of top prospects currently in the academy and a star rating and some other stuff (age, height, nationality, position etc). Obviously you would have no direct interaction with these players (I'd perfer to avoid the whole poaching thing) but you can see thier profile and what not but anyway. Point was it'd be neat to see people coming through the system you can get excited about like how IRL I know I am looking forward to Kenji Gorre and Rhain Davis coming up through the system and I imagine people like Barca fans have a few kids they're looking forward too. It would be cool if this could be... like how if there's a kid who is 13 and 6ft and 200lbs and quick and people rave over them, you see it all the time, but as they progress up the ranks the playing field evens out and thier actual lack of talent begins to emerge until they're usually dumped by academies. We've all heard of them. Who was that CM legend who did that? At 16/17 he was ridiculous (IRL and in CM) but now he's in his 20s he's a nobody, as evidenced by the fact I can't even remember his name. Cherno Samba!

Does that make sense? It sounds a bit... wierd putting it down on paper... I think. I hope it makes sense. It'd be even better if you could get more real life youngsters as well and not just restrict it to regens.

I do not know whether this reflects across to personality attributes though.

Certainly in earlier incarnations of FM a very high proportion of South American regens had VERY low attributes for TEMPERAMENT. I haven't checked for FM11.

Certainly in earlier incarnations of FM a very high proportion of South American regens had VERY low attributes for TEMPERAMENT. I haven't checked for FM11.

That's because every regen did!

Some really good ideas in this thread, hope SI take notice

I believe it is related to their contract, but I'm not sure, I think players on youth contracts but in the first team squad might be "fast tracked". Maybe there should be a piece of text in-game to explain it?

I would highly reccomend that then, or the ability to specify if they train with youth or first team coaches because if it's true that its off the contract then my youth setup is literally worthless because any good prospects I sign to pro deals as soon as I can and as I say, my first team coaches do not have much of an emphasis on working with youth because they're for the first team.

I wondered why my youngsters were not growing as well as other peoples. I've got a 4.5* regen who has.... just not grown really, he's gone up a bit but not what I'd expect given the investment I've put in him over the last two years. Same for my 4.5* GK regen.

Edit: Could you mark this one too then please?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/259937-A-few-suggestions-for-FM12.

It's been 'noted' but I fear it might get forgotten over the passage of time and I put many ideas in which seem popular.

Given that the big clubs are poaching tweens nowadays, I think that getting youngsters at an earlier age than 15-16 would really help. But I think that when it comes to player attributes, the development of --6 to -10 players with low CA is way too slow. Most players are done developing their physical and technical skills by the age of 22-23, and a player wanting to become a good PL player needs to be in the 13-15s in everything by then. The development of anything but mental abilities should be explosive up to 22-23 years, and mental stats should develop explosively from the age 29 in some players. The old but mentally superior players with poor physique are abundant in the 1st season, but disappear after a while...

The problem with putting too much emphasis on a country, or a club's individual playing style is that it ignores how much these can change over time IRL. I'm still playing FM10, not FM11, so haven't seen to what extent the templates have been implemented, and what effect they have had, but IRL

1. George Graham's Arsenal were the complete opposite of Arsene Wenger's Arsenal. Now when (younger) supporters talk about the "Arsenal way" they completely forget the years in which Tony Adams appealing for offside while his team led 1-0 was the definitive Arsenal image.

2. Barcelona's passing ethos has only really been a thing since Cruyff in the 90s, who knows what their ethos will be like in the 2020s, should an equally forceful personality come along and change things?

3. Brazil have lost a lot of their former style in the last decade: other than maybe Hernanes, can you name one Brazilian midfielder with particularly impressive passing? They're all physical players like Ramires and Melo, and there are only a handful of creative Brazilian talents, and even they are forwards, as much as creators (Neymar, Kaka etc.). People criticised Dunga before the World Cup for his playing style, but what creative players did he really leave out of the team, except for Ronaldinho, who's a spent force?

Similarly, you talk about the impressive passing and touch of Spain, but until 2006, was this really considered the case? Nigeria beat Spain at France '98. Spain were just another decent European side who you expected to qualify for things, but never really expected to go all the way, though on their day they could provide a stiff challenge, because they always had a couple of great players. Essentially, they were England. They were considered a technical side, but no more than other quite good European sides, I'd say (Portugal, Czech Republic, etc.).

It's only this last decade that has made them something more, and if you look at the players involved, beneath that miraculous Barcelona injection of talent, I'm still to be persuaded that there has been any great revolution from the old stereotype.

That said, I would like each club to start with an "ethos" that affects what sort of manager they appoint, what sort of players make it through their academy, and what sort of results please their supporters. Then, the longer you were at the club, the more this ethos would move towards your own ethos (which the game would detect by monitoring your formation and playing style, your average goals scored & conceded per game, and your press conferences, and media comments).

That way, if you were at a club for 10 yrs, playing an attacking Brazilian 4-2-2-2 formation with lots of creative freedom and high tempo, and a philosophy of "we'll score at least one more than they do "eventually your academy would rarely produce out-and-out wingers, and would produce players with higher flair and good touch in proportion to their CA. Supporters would start to appreciate 4-3 wins more than 1-0s. And if you resigned after 20 yrs, then the club would be loth to go and appoint a safety-first 5-4-1 playing manager, and if they did the fans would soon turn on him if things went badly.

At the moment, apart from getting asked about feeder clubs, you never really get the sense that you are molding a club in your image, or gaining extra responsibility as your managerial tenure extends.

In Spain they don't even seriously bother with the physical side until you're around about 18 and done growing as hitting the weights before then can stunt your growth. It was the reasoning behind Ronaldo's explosion in size when he was about 19. They also would perfer to focus on technique and other things they deem more important. I think stuff you can't really work on like speed should be relatively set at creation and increase slightly with age but not too much. Walcott as an example was always blazing even when he was in highschool. He's faster now than then but I would wager not by much at all. Like 40 times in the NFL combine. The growth from entering college to the combine in speed is very slight. You either have it or you don't.

***ULTIMATE SUGGESTION ALERT***

What if speed and stamina was seperate from the CA/PA? You just get it, it goes up slightly naturally with age until you're 18-19 then stops (maybe you can squeeze a extra point through training and technique and stuff) until you're 28-30ish and steadily declines (at a greater rate than it grew naturally but also random as some people do not lose thier speed dramtically and some dive off a cliff).

With stamina (this is assuming the regen is already physically quite fit as a sports pro) you can't really grow that either. Take me for example. I'm out of shape right now and have little stamina (to me). I'd give myself a 8 in FM terms. I could finish a game of football but I'd be very tired. When I am in shape my stamina is very good, a 17 or so in FM terms assuming I had the regemin of a pro footballer (people frequently asked if I was on speed or something playing football because I'd just go and go and go).... but that's it. A person cannot gain a lot of stamina. I could put all the hours I want but you hit a wall. Yes technically you could increase it radically but that would involve breaking the muscle down and replacing it with an entirely different type of muscle that is not suited to football, you'd lose all your strength and what not.

It could also take into account the coaches and facilities when factoring in growth because if you have not good coaches and poor equiptment maybe you don't grow so much and if you have a good coach, a nutritionist getting you the right food and top facilities for exmaple you could build a lot of muscle if a person deicated themselves to it. I think strength should be sperate also and essentially unrealted to CA/PA but it could have the knock of of effecting other attributes if you train it heavily because to get mad strong you'd have to be soley at the gym working out and not doing your football stuff so that's the payoff, and vice versa.... alothough I suppose in the offseason you could focus on it, but then it does take like 6 months to get properly huge so you wouldn't have the time to abuse the system.

After all that watch them be all "That's totally what it does right now". Although right now stamina and strength feels like it's frozen.... You get what you get and that's it. I also think some rater guys get muddled between strength and balance and size. They give little guys low strength just becxause they're little but really it should be unrelated. You could be tiny and well strong but still relatively easy to muscle off the ball, which should be balance, because you're small. Whereas in FM they go this guy is really small so he is really weak and has low balance (see Moralez and Bounanotte). Then nothing you can do can ever make him strong, even though he could get strongish. There's nothing stopping it really. It could be capped somewhat in relation to size because bigger people are more than likely going to be able to be stronger than smaller people. I couldn't see Maxi Moralez being able to get as strong as Llorente could get for example. Maybe do it like height is done. Oh I don't know.

Just tossing thoughts around.

Country's do tend to produce certain players though and re: Spain, I always look at Spain as lots of little countries, hence the certain places producing certain players. Argentina have a history of to me, three types of player; Your Redondo types, the deep long passing playmaker. Your Mascherano type DMs and CB's who are tough hardnosed no nonsense destroyers and your low centre of gravity dribblers. They have a term for that type in Argentina, can't remember it though. So in the game they should always produce those types of players. Always. That'llnever change.

Brazil's... failure... well I wouldn't like that sort of collapse in the game, do people play it long enough to see that sort of shiift? It was mostly down to creative players being pushed either out wide or further and further forward with literally centrebacks placed in midfield. Anyone with an engine was put at WB. The shift is changing again with creative players being allowed to stay in midfield, I feel because the talent is being bought so soon they are not around long enough to get corrupted. Brazil is also noticing what European clubs want to buy so you will see a larger emphasis on athleticism now to get them ready for export. Maicon is the embodiment of this new approach. That said. Brazil has always produced talented technicxally gifted players, it's just, in my humble opinion, they were being destroyed in the name of quick fixes and terrible counter-attacking football, it's not that they were not there. Menezes is going back to the old ways. So I don't see a problem with Brazil or Argentina or Spain having it coded in to produce certain player types for ever.

Spain's good passing football was also, for the most part always there too. It just wasn't very successful and was becoming a point of shame. Aragones managed to fix it and Del Bosque took it further. Again you just have to look at the history of Spanish players to see that a couple of types of player have always been present. I don't know why this is but it's like asking why do Brazil produce such technical and flamboyant players? They just do. Many reasons have been posed none have been proven. It's like trying to find out what is at the centre of a blackhole.

Regarding regions certainly physical and mental traits have to be set. Basques, as were my example, are just bigger, stronger and fitter on average than Spanish people, we're decended from the ice men who came out of the caves of the Pyrenees and are genetically seperate from traditional Spanish folk. That is fact. You should see some ofthe dudes that compete in the Herri Kirolak events. Of course you get your Pau Gasol anomolies though. South Americans tend to be smaller, particularly Argentines. At least to me. You also do have to conceed that Latin players are inherently more prone to theatrics and fakery than other places.

I guess SI folk could do quick research over the last 30 or so years to see if this is all true. Perhaps it is not as obvious as it seems to me and shouldn't be included but it really does feel that way. You can't go too far back though because you have to factor in that the game itself has changed to focus more on the types of players the game produces itself. I'm talking about the modern game here.

What if speed and stamina was seperate from the CA/PA? You just get it, it goes up slightly naturally with age until you're 18-19 then stops (maybe you can squeeze a extra point through training and technique and stuff) until you're 28-30ish and steadily declines (at a greater rate than it grew naturally but also random as some people do not lose thier speed dramtically and some dive off a cliff).

With stamina (this is assuming the regen is already physically quite fit as a sports pro) you can't really grow that either. Take me for example. I'm out of shape right now and have little stamina (to me). I'd give myself a 8 in FM terms. I could finish a game of football but I'd be very tired. When I am in shape my stamina is very good, a 17 or so in FM terms assuming I had the regemin of a pro footballer (people frequently asked if I was on speed or something playing football because I'd just go and go and go).... but that's it. A person cannot gain a lot of stamina. I could put all the hours I want but you hit a wall. Yes technically you could increase it radically but that would involve breaking the muscle down and replacing it with an entirely different type of muscle that is not suited to football, you'd lose all your strength and what not.

It could also take into account the coaches and facilities when factoring in growth because if you have not good coaches and poor equiptment maybe you don't grow so much and if you have a good coach, a nutritionist getting you the right food and top facilities for exmaple you could build a lot of muscle if a person deicated themselves to it. I think strength should be sperate also and essentially unrealted to CA/PA but it could have the knock of of effecting other attributes if you train it heavily because to get mad strong you'd have to be soley at the gym working out and not doing your football stuff so that's the payoff, and vice versa.... alothough I suppose in the offseason you could focus on it, but then it does take like 6 months to get properly huge so you wouldn't have the time to abuse the system.

After all that watch them be all "That's totally what it does right now". Although right now stamina and strength feels like it's frozen.... You get what you get and that's it.

I'll explain that better because that was nonsensical and written late at night. What I mean is if a player is 14 and just created and has a stamina of 6 that feels like that's basically it. Maybe you can push it to 8 at best but it never really grows whereas in reality the level of stamina between a footballer who is 14 and that footballer at 25 is huge. Then insert the rest about natural growth and facilities and coaches and stuff. But I'm not saying you should be able to "artificially" raise a players stamina indefinately as opposed to how it is now where it is frozen. It should be linked to Natural fitness too, like that determines the natural growth room for that particular player, a 14 with 6 stamina and 18 natural fitness should be able to become very fit, whereas someone with 6 and 6 should barely pass 9 or something.

evening.

Long time player, first time poster. I want to suggest that the player should be able to pick kits before each season. any ideas as to how i can bother someone who might have the power to bring it about?