I see the future, as it has happened before.

First let me say one thing. I love Football Manager..........sorry maybe that should have read I Loved Football Manager. I bought FM 2011 the day it came out as i have done since CM 93 days. Honestly, i have not played it passed the Charity Shield date.

I find myself looking more and more at reviews of Fifa Manager (I have never bought the game) and they are getting better and better each year. I see the future and this is how it goes.....like Fifa did to the PES series. One day you will wake to find Fifa Manager is better than Football Manager just like how Fifa is now a lot better that PES in most peoples eyes. And that it coming from someone who once Loved PES but now would never entertain it over Fifa.

It seems to have taken a long time but the day is coming when Football Manager followers turn to Fifa Manager as overnight just like they did with Fifa it will become a better game.

Anyone new to Football Manager after reading these forums would not entertain it.

I hope i find love for Football Manager once again, but i would need to find the motivation to do so and when i read these forums every so often it puts me right off.

See ya

Simple solution, dont read the forums.

I highly doubt FIFA manager will catch up with FM, to begin with its not worth EA sports throwing so much money at it to be able to properly compete, there are just not enough available sales to make it worth their while. They will never have the same relationship with their fans because its not that kind of company. FM have thousands of fans who for nothing but a free copy of the game provide tons of data that is used in the game, again FIFA do not have this, it has been built up over the years from when SI were a much smaller company.

Your point about forums is daft really, anyone new to any game would avoid it if you read the forums associated, i have yet to find a game forum where people are happy with the game, every single one is full of threads with people complaining, thats the way it is now a days, these forums are no worse than others. I know a few people new to the game this year and they are very very happy with it, both of which had played FIFA Manager before and now wouldnt go back to it at all.

At the end its all subjective, you say more people like FIFA than PES, but based on what, your own preference? Unless you have hard statistical evidence that backs that up then its your word against the next persons. Remember your perspective is not necessarily the actual facts of the matter.

I have no figures to back what i say up. I am simply going by what people i know are doing/saying. We have all moved from PES to Fifa and have not looked back. And although i am talking about small numbers (20 people) you can be sure there are more people out there doing the same thing

Now they are starting to become annoyed/restless with Football Manager. Some have stopped playing altogether, like me. Others play from time to time. And i am talking about people here that could not put the game down throughout the years. Addicted to say the least. But things are changing. I don't want things to change, but its happening. And the PES to Fifa has an all to similar ring to it.

Anyone who stops playing a game just because of what they read on a forum needs to grow up.

"Everybodys got an opinion, but there's only one that matters - yours."

I don't care what other people say about the game and complaints about bugs, etc. FM is an amazing game, and it will be a long time before anything can compete with it. But that's just my opinion.

so do you now play FIFA manager and prefer it to FM?

I bet for the 20 people you know who have moved to FIFA from PES, there will be another twenty who have done the opposite, all games go though things like that, especially those competing for fans and those delivery very similar games. People get into games and out of games with every new version, for one person this is the best FM ever, for the next its the worst, the proof is in the sales, and again this year FM has topped the charts, i havent seen FIFA manager in any top 10 charts anywhere which tells me its still a very long way behind in terms of quality and popularity.

The simple fact is EA will struggle to get the same size of database that FM has, because it would cost too much, and they dont have the same community that FM has, and without the database the game will never be as good, doesnt matter what features they add, without the realism they wont compete well enough.

No, i have never bought Fifa Manager. But i did read a review for it this morning and the views where that it is ahead of Football Manager now in certain areas but lacking in others. I don't see myself buying it but i have found myself reading more and more about it.

No, i have never bought Fifa Manager. But i did read a review for it this morning and the views where that it is ahead of Football Manager now in certain areas but lacking in others. I don't see myself buying it but i have found myself reading more and more about it.

so why make this thread unless you have played both of them and made the comparison yourself?

Ahead in what aspects, things that are important to a football management sim, or little features that add nothing to the bigger picture of the game?

It will take a HUGE effort from FIFA to overtake FM and frankly its not worth their while.

Stop reading threads/articles/reviews, play the game yourself, make up your own mind. It really is as simple as that.

No, i have never bought Fifa Manager. But i did read a review for it this morning and the views where that it is ahead of Football Manager now in certain areas but lacking in others. I don't see myself buying it but i have found myself reading more and more about it.

If you think it's the future, why not buy it and play it, then come back here and tell us how it compares to FM?

im sure fifa manager will improve, but it wil be at a slow rate

from what i can gather most people are only unhappy at fm 2011 because they expect so much more!!

all games will have bugs etc, some bugs are a matter of opinion, but si will try to minimize these bugs in the patches, would fifa manager?

forums will always tend to be negative due to people asking for help or reporting a possible bug!

what are your reasons for not playing past the charity shield match?

FWIW I was having a similar problem as the OP. Could not get into FM2011, or really FM2010 for that matter. Was thinking of giving up but now I am in my 4th season with Arsenal and on course to win the Premier League a 4th consecutive time.

Also whereas I once was a massive PES fan before dumping it for the now more fluid FIFA, I would never entertain the idea of playing another football management sim, FIFA Manager looks like the worst series I have ever seen. Multiple developers over the past few iterations on top of features like being unsackable, I mean what is the point in playing a game if you can never lose?

Is there a community forum for FIFA Manager? Would be interesting to see if they all complain about ridiculous bugs and say FM is better!

FM is far superior to FIFA Manager imo.

I've played both games, and can honestly say it's like the Premier League v League One at the moment.

how many versions of FIFA manager have their been? I read a few reviews but it looks rubbish, full of uneeded useless features, which apparently you can turn off and then it becomes more basic, just seems like its full of nothing features like spending your wages and stuff. It wont have near the same community which i think makes FM the game it is.

i dont see what the fascination of buying houses and cars does

First off, I like those people commenting on which game is better when they haven't even played both! You can't build your opinion based on a website article...

I have played both managers excessively and in my view, both have their advantages and disadvantages, which also results in a partly different target group. Thus FIFAM sets different priorities and the rising amount of copies sold every year shows that there are also enough people who enjoy the - on this forum often ridiculed - FIFAM features. Considering that FIFAM is a smaller project than FootMan (despite EA being the bigger company), it has a very lively fan community. For me personally, the ME of FootMan edges the battle at the moment, as you can't view full matches in FIFAM. Interface and design for example, are way better in FIFAM in my opinion. I fear that an objective discussion on this forum is next to impossible since the vast majority here will logically be in favour of FootMan because this is, yes, a FootMan-forum.

I don't even agree with your point about FIFA and PES.

Yes, PES once ruled the world.

Yes, FIFA had overtaken them. But how? By simply buying the staff that designed PES, people always forget that. EA are the Chelsea, the Real Madrid, the Man City if you will of the gaming industry.

But this year's FIFA is horrible, PES is back on top. FIFA lacks so much pace and is so predictable that it's nowhere near real football. Playing a match in PES feels so much more like actually watching (and participating in) a real football match.

it goes in swings and round abouts tho, i remember FIFA being the best football game around, then PES took over the mantle, now it appears FIFA is back on top ( i havent played either for years because i found both were boring.)

what a fantastic post

you have not played this years FM passed the charity shield. or in other words, you haven't played it

and you have not played fifa manager

what a legend!

The point i am maybe trying to make is that once PES thought they were on top (and they were) but overnight it seemed to change. And i don't care what people say, it did change. Fifa overtook what everyone considered the best. It was like PES thought they would never lose their fan base so stopped making a large effort to improve. People got fed up. It seems to me like the same thing could happen with the football manager sim. People are becoming extremely restless by the game they once loved (FM) and might try something new. The last 2 FM games have been stop and start.

Major Bugs raised (in some peoples eyes) > Don't wanna Start new game until patch > patch released > More major bugs (in some peoples eyes) > Don't wanna start a new game until patch.

Thats how i see it. I understand there are always going to be bugs and i am ok with that. But it seems like every other post on these forums is a bad one.

Have SI taken their foot of the Gas and are happy to have their loyal fans (i am one) buy the game year in year out, the way i perceive PES did?

what a fantastic post

you have not played this years FM passed the charity shield. or in other words, you haven't played it

and you have not played fifa manager

what a legend!

I have played Football Manager/Championship Manager for the last 17 years and i know that the games of 2010, 2011 don't give me the same excitement that the other versions have.

I never claimed to have played Fifa Manager, i was simply going by reviews. The way i do with most things before buying them.

I would have to say that about 90% of people who buy the FM series never go to the forums, only the 10% who do is usually to complain about bugs or gripe about why their team or players don't perform (Its their tactics, couldn't resist adding that in) so the forums look like its 90% of buyers complaing about the game when infact its the top selling Football Manager sim on the market, EA made the FIFA manager games to add a bit of dimension to their series but they are more concerned about the console aspect of playing as a team not managing one that is why they have plenty of flaws in their management games, Would you go and see a film at the cinema because 20 people said it was great but avoid the one sitting top of the box office that over 1 million people had seen just because 2 people said it had a slow start?

In my eyes, comparing FIFA manager to FM is not the same as comparing FIFA to PES.

Both the latter have always entertained the same goals and aimed at the same target audience. FM and Fifa Manager are quite different animals, with FM being aimed at hardcore fans that want as realistic an experience as possible while FIFA is aimed at players with a more casual attitude to the genre.

The pc version of FIFA is a disaster. Anyone who says FIFA is now better than PES could only have played them on consoles.

Simple solution, dont read the forums.

I highly doubt FIFA manager will catch up with FM, to begin with its not worth EA sports throwing so much money at it to be able to properly compete, there are just not enough available sales to make it worth their while. They will never have the same relationship with their fans because its not that kind of company. FM have thousands of fans who for nothing but a free copy of the game provide tons of data that is used in the game, again FIFA do not have this, it has been built up over the years from when SI were a much smaller company.

Good comments except you are missing one big key. It's not SI and EA to compare, it's SEGA and EA. If the market isn't good enough for EA to spend money improving FIFA then why would SEGA continue to support SI so FM can get better? I'm pretty sure EA has more money then SEGA anyway. So by your reasoning either they are both doomed franchises or you are wrong in your conclusions. Also, don't try to claim that SEGA are a minor player in FM, in this day in age major developer studios all survive based on their producers. BIoware, a massive and hugely successful developer, even threw their hat in with EA. So FM's fate is likely more SEGA's choice then it is SI's.

Now I have played FIFA and hated it... just really annoying and unintuitive to do something as simple as hire staff. But the match day graphics and option to 'play' on the pitch (not sure how that works) will make it more popular with a different type of crowd then FM. Both sides need to do their best to make improvements to keep the fence sitters from drifting back and forth or just leaving the football management scene all together. As i've said in a couple other threads, with football (soccer) popularity growing in the US more, now would be the best time for SI to get away from little meaningless new features and really make some robust quality changes to FM while they are strong. If they wait to long to fix major issues then they likely will lose out to FIFA when the customers that notice bugs more then a lack of depth go that way.

I have played Football Manager/Championship Manager for the last 17 years and i know that the games of 2010, 2011 don't give me the same excitement that the other versions have.

I never claimed to have played Fifa Manager, i was simply going by reviews. The way i do with most things before buying them.

Any chance that could be because every year you are getting older and older. Since FM10 you are lucky if I have spent even close to the amount of time playingt he game than looking at the editor and trying to improve the research side of things. Because I prefer that, than playing it.

Good comments except you are missing one big key. It's not SI and EA to compare, it's SEGA and EA. If the market isn't good enough for EA to spend money improving FIFA then why would SEGA continue to support SI so FM can get better? I'm pretty sure EA has more money then SEGA anyway. So by your reasoning either they are both doomed franchises or you are wrong in your conclusions. Also, don't try to claim that SEGA are a minor player in FM, in this day in age major developer studios all survive based on their producers. BIoware, a massive and hugely successful developer, even threw their hat in with EA. So FM's fate is likely more SEGA's choice then it is SI's.

Sega dont make FM, they test, market and distribute it, SI make FM.

My point was, EA are famous for their team games, where the user plays a part in the team, that is what they are very good at, and will continue to be very good at, but they are not so great at the managment side of things, for them to get a game near the level of complexity and quality of FM would cost them a lot of money, to get even the database SI have would cost a fortune, unless like SI they have a great community willing to do stuff for nothing basically. Its just not worth their while trying to compete, SI have been doing this and only this for years and as Edos have shown its not something you can just jump into and make it succesful. You are right EA COULD easily afford to do it, but would they see a return for the outlay, whilst competing with FM? I highly doubt it, not for the first few years anyway and when they did the sales would not make it make it a hugely profitable series compared to FIFA, Madden and so on, so what they have done is take what they are good at, and chuck a managment sim ontop of it because not everyone wants to play a game like FM, which in essence is a ton of spread sheets with a UI and 2d/3d representation, some want a more arcade kind of game, which by the looks of things FIFA Manager offers.

SEGA will continue with SI because it makes good sense, SI have a reputation in this genre, the best in the world probably, in the UK and Europe this game sells well enough to make it worth their while, i highly doubt SEGA pump millions into SI, infact i would be suprised if they pump any real amount of money into SI, what they do offer them is the ability to market their product much better than Edos ever did and i would imagine they offer them a bit of stability in terms of SEGA are not going away any time soon, and that means the ability for SI to continue releasing games each year. SI will own FM, not SEGA, it would make no sense for SI to sell the rights to the game because then they have nothing but a contract, SI will still have a huge say on what happens with their own game, but they will be under orders in terms of releases and what have you, thats buisness for you.

Sega dont make FM, they test, market and distribute it, SI make FM.

My point was, EA are famous for their team games, where the user plays a part in the team, that is what they are very good at, and will continue to be very good at, but they are not so great at the managment side of things, for them to get a game near the level of complexity and quality of FM would cost them a lot of money, to get even the database SI have would cost a fortune, unless like SI they have a great community willing to do stuff for nothing basically. Its just not worth their while trying to compete, SI have been doing this and only this for years and as Edos have shown its not something you can just jump into and make it succesful. You are right EA COULD easily afford to do it, but would they see a return for the outlay, whilst competing with FM? I highly doubt it, not for the first few years anyway and when they did the sales would not make it make it a hugely profitable series compared to FIFA, Madden and so on, so what they have done is take what they are good at, and chuck a managment sim ontop of it because not everyone wants to play a game like FM, which in essence is a ton of spread sheets with a UI and 2d/3d representation, some want a more arcade kind of game, which by the looks of things FIFA Manager offers.

SEGA will continue with SI because it makes good sense, SI have a reputation in this genre, the best in the world probably, in the UK and Europe this game sells well enough to make it worth their while, i highly doubt SEGA pump millions into SI, infact i would be suprised if they pump any real amount of money into SI, what they do offer them is the ability to market their product much better than Edos ever did and i would imagine they offer them a bit of stability in terms of SEGA are not going away any time soon, and that means the ability for SI to continue releasing games each year. SI will own FM, not SEGA, it would make no sense for SI to sell the rights to the game because then they have nothing but a contract, SI will still have a huge say on what happens with their own game, but they will be under orders in terms of releases and what have you, thats buisness for you.

You make it sound like SI are in full control... you are right, they make the game. But SEGA are in control of FM's future, everyone knows SI are a fairly small developer in the grand scheme. Name one solidly successful small developer that does -not- belong to a producer in this industry. Producers are the source of money if developers want to further their game, devs do the work but unless they are indies they aren't the ones in control. I don't know the specifics between SI and SEGA, but in most cases the producer could sack the whole staff because they literally own the company as a subsidiary. I'm willing to bet that is the case and more then simply SEGA marketing the game. It's not a matter of SEGA giving SI loads of money, in fact I'm sure they don't, but it's a matter of rights and ownership. SI might own FM, but if SEGA own SI, then SEGA do own FM. Again, not saying that is the case, just the most common case these days. There are -very- few indie developers and they have very little to spend on their games. I doubt SI are one of them that could break away from SEGA (if they have the rights too) and keep above water. Well not if they want to keep getting league licensing anyway. So I still make the comparison of SEGA vs EA when you talk about FM vs FIFA. SI make the game, doesn't mean they have complete control of it's fate. Heh, actually the fate of the game is in the hands of the customers. again why I think they need to put more effort into fixing things then new yearly 'features' lest those customers get disheartened in the franchise. Hmm, makes me think I should load up FIFA again and actually test out their ME... for all I know the management side of things is the only bad part. maybe FIFA actually have match AI that aren't moronic (doubtful, but that's what other people will think of).

Lastly... we've had this conversation before... but it's in the eye of the beholder if releasing a game every year is a good thing or not.

yeh i guess we could go on and on with this, but until either of us have more insight into the actual runnings and dealings with SI and SEGA then its fruitless really, still makes for a good debate. I dont see any reason why SI would attempt to "go it alone" so to speak, SEGA will offer them more experience and resources than SI could ever have, it makes very good buisness for them to work with SEGA or for SEGA which ever it may be.

To be honest i would hope the FIFA ME is better, afterall its something they have been doing for a very long time, making a smart AI to play against a human and react to whats going on in the game. I just dont think they have everything else thats needed for a great football managment sim.

yeh i guess we could go on and on with this, but until either of us have more insight into the actual runnings and dealings with SI and SEGA then its fruitless really, still makes for a good debate. I dont see any reason why SI would attempt to "go it alone" so to speak, SEGA will offer them more experience and resources than SI could ever have, it makes very good buisness for them to work with SEGA or for SEGA which ever it may be.

To be honest i would hope the FIFA ME is better, afterall its something they have been doing for a very long time, making a smart AI to play against a human and react to whats going on in the game. I just dont think they have everything else thats needed for a great football managment sim.

Agreed... interesting debate but pointless because of the lack of details. But I don't think SI would want to go it alone even if they could either. However I also don't have much respect for publishers in the industry, I despise EA and don't think much better of SEGA, especially since I've watched one of my favorite franchises (Total War) get worse and worse since SEGA hooked up with CA. So that doesn't help my objectivity on the future of FM.

Have to say though... you are correct in thinking that FIFA may have a better ME. But that's exactly why I stress SI need to really focus on things like that. I mean I love the depth of the players and scouting for new team members etc, takes me forever to complete 1 season because I'm always scouting players, comparing to my team, if they will let you use better tactics, etc. But it frustrates the hell out of me when I take all that hard work into a match and watch the occasional clown show that ensues because of the terrible AI. Those flaws will be the death knell of FM if they don't sort them out. The die hard faithful can rave all they want about the 3D ME being the antichrist or some such. But in the end the die hard faithful can't keep the game alive on their own, and without an entertaining match to watch at the end of all the hard work you aren't going to see enough new people coming to the game... imo as always.

Agreed... interesting debate but pointless because of the lack of details. But I don't think SI would want to go it alone even if they could either. However I also don't have much respect for publishers in the industry, I despise EA and don't think much better of SEGA, especially since I've watched one of my favorite franchises (Total War) get worse and worse since SEGA hooked up with CA. So that doesn't help my objectivity on the future of FM.

Have to say though... you are correct in thinking that FIFA may have a better ME. But that's exactly why I stress SI need to really focus on things like that. I mean I love the depth of the players and scouting for new team members etc, takes me forever to complete 1 season because I'm always scouting players, comparing to my team, if they will let you use better tactics, etc. But it frustrates the hell out of me when I take all that hard work into a match and watch the occasional clown show that ensues because of the terrible AI. Those flaws will be the death knell of FM if they don't sort them out. The die hard faithful can rave all they want about the 3D ME being the antichrist or some such. But in the end the die hard faithful can't keep the game alive on their own, and without an entertaining match to watch at the end of all the hard work you aren't going to see enough new people coming to the game... imo as always.

they will sort them tho, as they get better and better with the 3D ME, its still very young in FM terms, this is the third version i think isnt it? It has progressed massively in those years, i hated it when it first came out i stuck to commentry until half after 10.3, even then i wasnt huge on it, this one tho is miles better, yes there are problems, some caused by tactical issues and some caused by issues with the 3D engine, some people find some of them huge, others still enjoy watching it. I would imagine despite what is posted on here, and not having a go at you btw, that the ME is probably one of the most important things to SI, and Paul C takes great pride in what he does, and pays a lot of attention to the feedback he gets, but i guess he is restricted by time, there is only so much you can do the space of a year, or less as they carry working on the current version 4 months after its released.

Have to say though... you are correct in thinking that FIFA may have a better ME.

FIFA has a better ME?????

Seriously? its shallow, repetitive and lacking in so many areas.

FMs isn't perfect but its light years ahead of FIFA.

FIFA has a better ME?????

Seriously? its shallow, repetitive and lacking in so many areas.

FMs isn't perfect but its light years ahead of FIFA.

really? Thats disapointing to hear, i would have hoped it would have been one of the best points of their game considering they have worked on something along the same lines for years.

really? Thats disapointing to hear, i would have hoped it would have been one of the best points of their game considering they have worked on something along the same lines for years.

Are you talking about FIFA or FIFAman here?

I don't have much experience of FIFAman but I believe it uses the same engine.

FIFA improved last year by trying to slow the game down so it wasn't like ping pong but it still suffers in so many areas. Just set up a AI vs AI match to see how one dimensional it is. It might look prettier but under the hood its still lacking.

BTW I believe FM has had a 3d ME for several years its just the 3d graphics that were introduced in 2009.

Are you talking about FIFA or FIFAman here?

I don't have much experience of FIFAman but I believe it uses the same engine.

FIFA improved last year by trying to slow the game down so it wasn't like ping pong but it still suffers in so many areas. Just set up a AI vs AI match to see how one dimensional it is. It might look prettier but under the hood its still lacking.

BTW I believe FM has had a 3d ME for several years its just the 3d graphics that were introduced in 2009.

sorry FIFAMAN, i would have thought they used pretty much the same engine no? If so surely it looks and acts better that SI's does? But as i say i gave up on football games years ago, they just got too frustrating for me to enjoy.

yeah sorry i was more meaning the 3D graphics.

sorry FIFAMAN, i would have thought they used pretty much the same engine no? If so surely it looks and acts better that SI's does? But as i say i gave up on football games years ago, they just got too frustrating for me to enjoy.

yeah sorry i was more meaning the 3D graphics.

Can't say I'm that bothered about the graphics, I'm quite happy with FMs TBH.

No point in it looking good if it can't produce a realistic game of football.

Can't say I'm that bothered about the graphics, I'm quite happy with FMs TBH.

No point in it looking good if it can't produce a realistic game of football.

but what about the tactical side of things, like defensive positioning and decision making, two of the things i see complained about on here most of the time?

If thats not better than what SI have then i would be very disapointed. Not saying im disapointed with FM just would have thought that was something FIFA would have quite good.

FIFA has a better ME?????

Seriously? its shallow, repetitive and lacking in so many areas.

FMs isn't perfect but its light years ahead of FIFA.

The words 'thinking' and 'may' should have made it clear that I was assuming along with milner that it would likely be better based on the years of making sports games purely for the game itself.

But as for the areas their ME lacks in... FM's doesn't sound any better.

Pace dominates, defense is extremely predicable or just plain stupid, people have talked about dominating a season undefeated with a basic 4-4-2, DFK's are a joke since 11, SI have flat out stated they need new ball physics, etc...

Sounds shallow and lacking in many areas to me... really doubt FIFA's is so bad FM's is light years ahead. But FIFA's graphics are much better, and that alone sells a large chunk of their copies I'm sure. I've played FIFA Manager and hated it compared to FM, but that doesn't not mean it's not competition taking sales away from FM. One of the other supporters posed those UK sales in another thread and they were #1 and #2. To me that suggests SI should try to improve on key areas to get more of that share instead of simply making silly fluff features.

but what about the tactical side of things, like defensive positioning and decision making, two of the things i see complained about on here most of the time?

If thats not better than what SI have then i would be very disapointed. Not saying im disapointed with FM just would have thought that was something FIFA would have quite good.

Tactics are its worst area IMO.

You see the same sequence work again & again leading to a lack of variety in the play. Its difficult to explain but it feels like there are only a handful of sequences and you can tell whats going to happen well in advance. Its too easy to keep possession but creating different sorts of chances is much harder as the AI don't really make good runs off the ball. There is far more variety in an FM match and it actually looks like a game of football whereas FIFA just seems like a scaled back arcade game, which I suppose is what it is.

Tactics are its worst area IMO.

You see the same sequence work again & again leading to a lack of variety in the play. Its difficult to explain but it feels like there are only a handful of sequences and you can tell whats going to happen well in advance. Its too easy to keep possession but creating different sorts of chances is much harder as the AI don't really make good runs off the ball. There is far more variety in an FM match and it actually looks like a game of football whereas FIFA just seems like a scaled back arcade game, which I suppose is what it is.

as i say that disapoints me, i really would have thought FIFA would have that looking and acting good after all these years, kinda shows how hard it actually is, and shows how hard paul c must be working on it. Your right it does seem more like an arcade game, but then there is room for that so im not going to criticise too much.

Pace dominates, defense is extremely predicable or just plain stupid, people have talked about dominating a season undefeated with a basic 4-4-2, DFK's are a joke since 11, SI have flat out stated they need new ball physics, etc...

Pace doesn't dominate but it is advantageous in the areas you would expect much like real life.

Sounds shallow and lacking in many areas to me... really doubt FIFA's is so bad FM's is light years ahead. But FIFA's graphics are much better, and that alone sells a large chunk of their copies I'm sure. I've played FIFA Manager and hated it compared to FM, but that doesn't not mean it's not competition taking sales away from FM. One of the other supporters posed those UK sales in another thread and they were #1 and #2. To me that suggests SI should try to improve on key areas to get more of that share instead of simply making silly fluff features.

TBH I don't believe that FIFAman & FM are really competing for the same market share although I can accept that one could take sales off the other.

People who want a fast paced quick management sim should go for FIFAman and its the portable FM versions that are competing against it. FM is far more in depth, slower, with more thought needed and therefore should appeal to the more strategic gamer who wants to invests more time.

Pace doesn't dominate but it is advantageous in the areas you would expect much like real life.

Ok I'll admit the pace one is a little opinion based. But my 17 pace striker easily dominated my MLS save even though he has terrible decisions, creativity, anticipation, and fair composure. He simply ran past everyone time after time, so it does seem a little unbalanced. But I notice you don't discount any other of the weak areas. From your statements about the same sequences in FIFAMan sounds like they've limited the ME to more specific things while FM's is more complete. Problem is trying to make it more complete shows the weak points more clearly. Now before I say this, I am playing FM and not FIFAMan and don't like FIFAMan at all, but it has to be asked... which is worse, limiting the ME and graphics to things that look good, or being as complete as possible and showing the occasional utterly moronic moment? That is what the average person will ask when they are playing these games.

TBH I don't believe that FIFAman & FM are really competing for the same market share although I can accept that one could take sales off the other.

People who want a fast paced quick management sim should go for FIFAman and its the portable FM versions that are competing against it. FM is far more in depth, slower, with more thought needed and therefore should appeal to the more strategic gamer who wants to invests more time.

That would make sense, except FIFAMan does make an attempt at trying to be as in depth... they just fail badly at it. The finances in FIFAMan seem to be more in depth actually, but to a level that's just annoying as hell to try and work with. But this is one of the areas FM needs work, the financial model is at the very least questionable for some leagues. Trying to scout staff and players was a joke in FIFAMan, but you do have that option to take you time in that aspect. The tactics did seem to be very lacking from what I remember, simpler but less complete. Anyway my point is I don't think there is that much difference between them nor the people that are interested in them. Football fans that like management sims, those are the only people that will like either game imo, so obviously it will be the same market share. This is where we come back to EA and SEGA, both companies only care about how much money they make, so the more copies they sell of their games the happier they will be. So again, i think SI and SEGA need to take advantage of the strength following their game right now (because I doubt it will get stronger) and put as much work and money into sorting out the core aspects of the game instead of fluff like agents and, sadly, match prep. The new features are rushes and shallow, better to stop with them and make the ME better, the transfer system AI, better interaction system, finances, etc.

Ok I'll admit the pace one is a little opinion based. But my 17 pace striker easily dominated my MLS save even though he has terrible decisions, creativity, anticipation, and fair composure. He simply ran past everyone time after time, so it does seem a little unbalanced. But I notice you don't discount any other of the weak areas. From your statements about the same sequences in FIFAMan sounds like they've limited the ME to more specific things while FM's is more complete. Problem is trying to make it more complete shows the weak points more clearly. Now before I say this, I am playing FM and not FIFAMan and don't like FIFAMan at all, but it has to be asked... which is worse, limiting the ME and graphics to things that look good, or being as complete as possible and showing the occasional utterly moronic moment? That is what the average person will ask when they are playing these games.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the ME isn't unbalanced. Physical attributes were overpowered in earlier versions but the balance is moving in the right direction even if physical ones still seem a little high currently. What SI need to be careful of is to not go to far in the other direction hence changes are small each patch/version to try and achieve a balance.

In terms of moronic movement its becoming rarer & rarer in my games with each version and the last two I've hardly noticed any. You shouldn't read too much into the threads on the forum, many of them are explainable by either 3d representation, tactics or players (Attributes/personality). I always thought a generation brought up with football games on computers would understand tactics better than previous generations but my experience from the forums and coaching in real life is that they don't. FIFA & PES are perhaps partially to blame but many are too keen on playing kick & rush football hence on these forums we see so many threads where users struggle again the ai when they play defensive, counter attacking football.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the ME isn't unbalanced. Physical attributes were overpowered in earlier versions but the balance is moving in the right direction even if physical ones still seem a little high currently. What SI need to be careful of is to not go to far in the other direction hence changes are small each patch/version to try and achieve a balance.

In terms of moronic movement its becoming rarer & rarer in my games with each version and the last two I've hardly noticed any. You shouldn't read too much into the threads on the forum, many of them are explainable by either 3d representation, tactics or players (Attributes/personality). I always thought a generation brought up with football games on computers would understand tactics better than previous generations but my experience from the forums and coaching in real life is that they don't. FIFA & PES are perhaps partially to blame but many are too keen on playing kick & rush football hence on these forums we see so many threads where users struggle again the ai when they play defensive, counter attacking football.

Oh I understand baby steps and will applaud them. But i know when I face a player the has the pace to kill me and can try things to counter it, but the AI doesn't seem to have any flexibility in that regard. Not to mention it's much easier find high pace strikers then high pace defenders.

As for the times the Me completely fails... I'm not talking about things I've read, I'm talking about things I've posted with the goal clips to show just how badly it is. But not all of it 3D representation or tactics. With FM11 they made some specific changes to the defense, how they line up, and how they move. In many cases these changes have made it a little more realistic. But the failure is they made it far to rigid and the defensive line ALWAYS acts the same predictable way which continually leaves players wide open for easy goals. I've posted 6 videos of completely different instances of AI completely failing (both in my favor and against me) and some of them are also very easily repeatable. But yeah there are some cases where something silly happens because the 3D just shows it poorly. Well That needs to be fixed just as much. I mean I don't want to manage a team based purely on numbers (which those numbers aren't even a good show of things in some cases). I want to see the players I pick out on the pitch and judge their performance based on what I see. Well if I can't see what they are doing effectively then what's the point of me putting in all the effort to plan this and that beforehand?

However you look at it these things still need to be worked on and badly. So why are we getting half assed shallow incomplete 'features' instead of working on existing things and making the shallow areas more deep, and the ME more capable.

Pace is still too important on the game IMO, all it takes it's a striker with 17+ acc. and pace to destroy any defense on the game, even though i try to look up players with good mental and technical traits i feel they on the end of the day are useless if the player doesn't have massive pace.

Have to say though... you are correct in thinking that FIFA may have a better ME.

I highly doubt anyone of you have actually ever played any FIFA Manager (if you don't go ahead and try the demo.) Talking strictly visuals, unless the game isn't zoomed in on the players, SI aren't even that far behind anymore at all, as Bright Future as using a FIFA engine that dates back to about 2006 - with some 2009 assets. Arguably the pitch textures are already much better than in FIFA Manager, and the pitch and player size has always been off in any FIFA game. The area that is easily the weakest in FIFA Manager has always been the match engine, and even hardcore fans approve of this. We're talking an independent German studio trying to shoehorn football management into what is an arcade FIFA game - and it shows. It's not only the match engine - media and player interaction are much less refined, as there is always the same effect one can achieve by simpling knowing the same numbers in the game, and interviews are much the same - there is always one right answer to any set question, think about being asked the same questions in "Who wants to be a millionaire" a dozen times. And each time cashing in the same amount of money. Pretty much every single feature is handled in similar simple ways. (And this includes the supposedly indepth financial management - aquiring sponsorship is a matter of picking between three completely pre-determined offers when a contract ends, for instance.)

About the observation of the thread's starter: Whilst I am one that denies those who claim FIFA Manager to be simple crap (it isn't it's just not a very developed game compared to its competition), I am living in the country where FIFA Manager has the lionshare of its success, and I can tell you that I have never met anyone who has switched over to Football Manager and ever turned back. And about the game getting better and better: Look at the ratings on amazon.de , there was a huge backlash for this year's iteration in particular, and that has been a trend ever since about 2008.

I like the guy who is developing FIFA Manager, as he was the one responsible for the bulk of design of the On The Ball series, which used to be super popular in Germany and explains FIFA Managers success over here - in parts. But internationally this just ain't gonna happen at this rate. FIFA Manager just isn't very successfull outside of German speaking territories at all - EA pulled the plug on the release in Italy due to the lack of sales. As said, this isn't FIFA vs PES, this ain't EA vs Konami, this is a small independent outlet attached to EA vs the current behemoth of football management games.

Go ahead, try the demo. You'll likely appreciate FM's match engine in particular much more than you should be doing now. :-)

Well I did play FIFA Man but never got far enough to actually play a match because the management end of it was a joke... Again, that comment was an assumption based on all the experience EA has in making graphical match centric sporting games. But sounds like they use a totally different studio for FIFA Man.

As for how well it sells, there was a FM supporter that posted PC Gamer's UK 2010 top sales, FM and FIFA Man were #1 and #2 respectively. Not to mention the UK is probably the top selling location for FM it shows that FIFA Man is indeed serious competition. Which means SI are going to lose some business to their competition obviously. So my reasoning again, the ardent supports continue to say just how strong FM is doing now... well take that strength and put that extra effort into fixing the core aspects of the game that have issues. While people say the FIFA Man ME isn't any better then FM's that still doesn't not mean FM's doesn't need -LOTS- of work still. Then there are numerous other systems that don't have the level of depth that match the rest of the game or have flaws/bugs. If FM is selling strong then they should try to get more of the player base away from FIFA Man by making the core of the game even stronger instead of fluffy new junk 'features'.

As for how well it sells, there was a FM supporter that posted PC Gamer's UK 2010 top sales, FM and FIFA Man were #1 and #2 respectively. Not to mention the UK is probably the top selling location for FM it shows that FIFA Man is indeed serious competition.

Football Manager XXXX in the UK remains a top selling video game across platforms for much of its shelf life, whilst I've rarely ever seen FIFA Manager in any sales report outside of German speaking territories making any serious impact. What where those charts actually? PC centric charts around the time of release? Even FIFA Manager's designers admit that the UK in particular are a bit of a nut to crack.

Football Manager is more of a niche game than FIFA Manager in the UK, admittedly. It doesn't even see a proper release anymore over here. The reasons for that are tenfold - let's just argue they have zero to do with the quality of the games respectively.

Heh, ok my bad for not paying close enough attention... it was FIFA 11 not FIFA Manager.

But still going to say.. if they fix things people bitch about then they'll likely see sales increase better, especially if you consider it could increase it's popularity outside Europe. Supporters say if they don't add new features people with have a fit. Well those people might huff and puff for a bit, but they'll likely still play it -if- the existing features are indeed improved. However people that don't like the core feature bugs just toss the game and tend not to come back for a second chance.

The Thread 'Have Just about given up with FM2011' is a perfect example of what i am talking about. People becoming restless with the game. Lack of information etc

Its turns people off and makes them look for other options. Hense, one day you will wake up and find that in 201* people start saying you know what Fifa Manager has improved from what it was like in past years, think i might give it a try. And before you know it SI is left behind because they became sloppy, just make sure the game is stable and enjoyable. The way it has been for many many years prior to 2010. The exact same thing happened to Fifa, it took a MASSIVE leap forward.