How long can FM continue in its current format?

Hypothetical question, but with so many people calling for an upheaval of many aspects of the current game, how long before we are likely to see any drastic changes in the way FM is programmed, ala post CM0102?

I don't see why it can't be done if SI start running out of ideas/ways to improve FM, as even with the requirement of a yearly game, it was done fairly successfully (I think) from CM to FM. In any case, every game has its shelf life and in order to be a continued success it must change for the better. The 0102 version of CM was, imo, the best CM/FM of all time, and came after around 12 years, so if that trend were to continue are we going to see the best of FM around 2014/15 before it gets an overhaul? When do SI say enough is enough?

The amount of sold copies and the awards FM won in the last years suggest that it can continue for quite a while without drastic changes. Also, unhappy people are more likely to post on the forum. This is why some people seem to believe that almost everybody is unhappy with FM when in reality it's only a small minority.

I was more getting at when SI think it is time to change it; the threads in which people are moaning just put the thought into my head. CM0102 was immense but SI still thought it was necessary for an evolution of the game. Will it take until SI are happy with FM before a further evolution takes place?

There is limits to any technology and how fast advancements can be implemented. Once the games market makes the full transition to 64 bit programming we enter a new ball game completely with what is possible and so on and so forth. At the same time it will still take years from then to get the game developed and to fix each of the new implementations between now and then. Annual game releases are very much different to 'one off' game releases, some may use the basic engine from a previous game and upgrade but each FM title is a descendant of the last, and what is carried over is all the bugs and flaws from the previous generation. This requires these issues to be fixed, and these fixes to be working with the new additions. It would be a bit like fixing your car door only to realise the new locking mechanism doesn't work with that door. Your new feature is rendered defunct and the door is no longer fit for all the purposes you want it to be.

I was more getting at when SI think it is time to change it; the threads in which people are moaning just put the thought into my head. CM0102 was immense but SI still thought it was necessary for an evolution of the game. Will it take until SI are happy with FM before a further evolution takes place?

The thing is, CM was an Eidos/SI collaboration where FM is a SI/Sega collaboration. When the split happened, Eidos took their teddy out of the cot and SI took their database and they both had half a game... SI had the database, the ability and the knowledge to carry on producing the game (albeit with changes to various areas that Eidos "owned"). The key part of the split was the database, it's that what makes the game what it is... and SI kept the database which is why CM could never compete with FM properly.

I do wonder why people want the ui to change, it's not what makes the game as good as it is, right?

and they both had half a game...

Actually SI had the game, eidos had the name.

I do wonder why people want the ui to change, it's not what makes the game as good as it is, right?

The UI? Changing the UI doesn't seem to make much sense to me either... so much else needs an over haul though.

As forif the game can continue... yeah it can continue but it won't get new blood in it which means a slow death at some point, when the profits just aren't enough for SI/SEGA any more.

The UI could use a major upgrade. There are farrrrrrr to many clicks required to play this game.

For example: Player Interaction.

The way the UI works now, we can only talk to one player at a time and it takes several clicks to get through a conversation. It would be far more user friendly to have a filter that would work something like this. You could automatically congratulate any player who received a 7.5+ match rating. Any freak that thinks he played like crap could then be dealt with individually.

Custom settings could be tweaked so they dont revert to default on using a back to last view.

Subscriptions could be set from a single page of choices clicking on a box.

Friendlies could be improved by having the leagues loaded appear from the dropdown box..saving multiple clicks and load times from the 'all teams' screen.

Scout reports could have an option to see all scouts reports on a single screen..rather than having a clickfest through individual scouts.

I am sure there are many more ideas to make the game simpler and easier to wade through.

LOL... sorry I forget just how lazy society is. So you have to make a few extra clicks, big deal.

Compared to ME issues, general bugs, poor AI in most every part of the game, etc.... the UI takes a very far back seat imo, especially if your reasoning is all the extra clicks. wow

LOL... sorry I forget just how lazy society is. So you have to make a few extra clicks, big deal.

Compared to ME issues, general bugs, poor AI in most every part of the game, etc.... the UI takes a very far back seat imo, especially if your reasoning is all the extra clicks. wow

Or how ignorant society is.

UI issues result in hundreds of extra clicks every FM session. Some FMers will develop Carpal-Tunnel Syndrome..while FM wont be the only cause, it will be a contributing factor. Improving the UI..a pretty easy task..will also make the game flow better and faster.

I am by no means a critic of the game however I find the routine of pre/post match press conferences starts to become a bit tedious as similar questions are repeated over and over again, although I am aware that I can send my assistant. Maybe a wider variety of questions/.answers would change this.

The 'private chats' with players are also unrealistic, slightly juvenile and seem to have little influence on the game.

In terms of the interface of the game, graphics, realism I think the game is spot on.

How long can FM continue in its current format?

Forever.

To infinity. And beyond.

The amount of sold copies and the awards FM won in the last years suggest that it can continue for quite a while without drastic changes. Also, unhappy people are more likely to post on the forum. This is why some people seem to believe that almost everybody is unhappy with FM when in reality it's only a small minority.

The sales thing is obviously an impressive stat to look at but what alternative is there really? Im not saying fm isnt a good game btw but theres no way you can just say its only a minority because thats basically just a guess.

Back to the thread makers point, for me personally i wont be buying it every year if certain things arent updated or upgraded and the match engine is probably the biggest thing in my eyes sometimes painful to watch looks terrible especially given the graphical technology's and quality that is possible these days.

What were the final sales figures? CM4 did 1 million or something silly like that.

LOL... sorry I forget just how lazy society is. So you have to make a few extra clicks, big deal.

Compared to ME issues, general bugs, poor AI in most every part of the game, etc.... the UI takes a very far back seat imo, especially if your reasoning is all the extra clicks. wow

It is about game experience for me, a game is about leisure and enjoyment. It is irritating to have to click so much, cm 01/02 was perfect in respects to this imho.

You could have the best ME but if just getting to it means you have to click through 5 screens and menus it will get annoying and ruin the experience.

As forif the game can continue... yeah it can continue but it won't get new blood in it which means a slow death at some point, when the profits just aren't enough for SI/SEGA any more.

What do you mean no new blood?

Do you mean no new customers or no new features?

What do you mean no new blood?

Do you mean no new customers or no new features?

Maybe no new blood in design and programming.

LOL... sorry I forget just how lazy society is. So you have to make a few extra clicks, big deal.

Compared to ME issues, general bugs, poor AI in most every part of the game, etc.... the UI takes a very far back seat imo, especially if your reasoning is all the extra clicks. wow

The job of a computer is to make things as trivial as possible. Reducing the number of clicks allows users to actually spend time immersing themselves in the game, as well as reducing the number of things that can go wrong from a programming-point of view.

Sadly forever... or for as long as it takes to another company to come up with a better game...

Unfortunately for us that doesn't seem a possibility in the near future, as EA Sports are too focused on the "fluff factor" to appeal to us "spreadsheet people", despite FIFAMAN having some interesting features.

ChampMan is no more and was never a threat if not for the name. The rest... there's nothing more...

So it's a pity because with virtually no competition SEGA and SI can keep on releasing unfinished betas with just minor additions... Some real competition would force them to seriously acknowledge our complaints and maybe even to rethink/recode some important-but-flawed aspects of the game.

Just sell the 2012 data-update for 10 quids (you know we'll buy it!) and take 16 solid months to sit down and really SEE what's wrong with the current game and what can be done, instead of going for the traditional untested hotfix...

I'm sure SI used to sell updates for like £17/18. Is that not a possibility anymore?

I'm sure SI used to sell updates for like £17/18. Is that not a possibility anymore?

Not from a promotional standpoint...

Promoting FM2012 with new features (no matter how marginal or clunky) means promoting a brand new game (even if it's after all little more than a glorified patch)

Promoting FM2011 - Season 2011-12 Datapack is trickier... then again, EA have promoted a truckload of Sims expansion packs, so why can't SI do the same is really beyond me.

I think they're afraid to relinquish, albeit temporarily, the spotlight... as if not releasing the token (half-finished) yearly installment of the franchise would cause all the aficionados to buy FIFAMAN just to never come back...

While I suppose it would just work as a "quick fix" while waiting for Football Manager Revolution to blow us away...

I'm sure if they did some market research on this they would find, surely, that the vast majority of people would accept an interim/update game at a lower price whilst waiting for, as you put, some kind of FM revoultion the following year. I'd much prefer that for one! I don't even have a problem with FM as it stands really, but the most important elements of it (ME, player interaction, transfers etc.) are so rigid it's difficult not to get bored after a few seasons, whereas I could literally play CM0102 for decades (game time of course!).

I'm sure if they did some market research on this they would find, surely, that the vast majority of people would accept an interim/update game at a lower price whilst waiting for, as you put, some kind of FM revoultion the following year. I'd much prefer that for one! I don't even have a problem with FM as it stands really, but the most important elements of it (ME, player interaction, transfers etc.) are so rigid it's difficult not to get bored after a few seasons, whereas I could literally play CM0102 for decades (game time of course!).

But would they? Even the tiny number of FM users who frequent the forums cannot agree that it would be a good idea, and would people be willing to pay for something that was free the year before?

The other massive issue would be SI only make FM, do you know any company that can afford to take half a years takings or less, because at the end of the day there will be a huge number of people who wont pay for just an update and continue playing the current version of FM. I highly doubt they can afford to do this, they would need extra staff both working on an FM11 update and this new FM game whilst making less than half the money.

I like everyone else would love to see the game take a big jump, but sadly in reality i cannot see it happening for a long time.

But would they? Even the tiny number of FM users who frequent the forums cannot agree that it would be a good idea, and would people be willing to pay for something that was free the year before?

The other massive issue would be SI only make FM, do you know any company that can afford to take half a years takings or less, because at the end of the day there will be a huge number of people who wont pay for just an update and continue playing the current version of FM. I highly doubt they can afford to do this, they would need extra staff both working on an FM11 update and this new FM game whilst making less than half the money.

I like everyone else would love to see the game take a big jump, but sadly in reality i cannot see it happening for a long time.

I guess you're right, although they survived the CM/FM transition so I'm sure they could do it again if necessary. In any case, my initial point was more along the lines of at what point will SI consider that FM requires major change? When will they decide it's becoming stagnant, if ever?

I guess you're right, although they survived the CM/FM transition so I'm sure they could do it again if necessary. In any case, my initial point was more along the lines of at what point will SI consider that FM requires major change? When will they decide it's becoming stagnant, if ever?

yeah sorry i went off a bit!!

I would imagine when we have access to more readily avaliable powerful technology then the game will progress along with that, at the moment there must be a limit between wanting something close to real life with the limits of the average computer, which in turn may be holding them back from re-writing the whole thing, for all we know they may already have an outline of how it works, or even better a testing version of a new platform, but we may not have access to computers good enough to make it worth while them releasing.

I doubt SI would go out of business should they take a "sabbatical" and just go for a Nice Price data-update...

Moreso, is it really good business sticking to the same formula year after year relying on the fanbase keeping on shelling out money for what is STILL little more than a data update+patch of the same game?

How long before some fans won't care enough about the "new and improved" edition?

Just think of FIFA Soccer and how quickly it went from "groundbreaking football game" to "acquired taste/lazy yearly edition" to "who cares? PES is better", and how long it took them to bounce back...

The difference is SI can't really afford to fall behind...

I think it's time for a different approach, and even if it requires a little loss now it'd be for the better in the long run... Sticking to the "if it ain't too broke don't fix it" principle is very dangerous and short-sighted IMO.

I don't see any drastic changes being suggested, thus my guess is that those should be quite a bit down the line.

The more drastic changes made in the past were due to the fact that hardware restricted the possible for long enough. Now that we have a 3D engine, I'd guess that there is not a lot left which could be changed in a drastic way.

I don't see any drastic changes being suggested, thus my guess is that those should be quite a bit down the line.

The more drastic changes made in the past were due to the fact that hardware restricted the possible for long enough. Now that we have a 3D engine, I'd guess that there is not a lot left which could be changed in a drastic way.

It depends...

Maybe it's not a matter of radical changes being demanding in terms of hardware but it's just that the game as it is now (ie. the game engine) has more or less peaked and/or the long-time issues we've been reporting and lamenting are actually "built in" and can't be solved, only tweaked...

But there's just so much fixing you can do before realizing there isn't even a happy medium and you have to start over.

Not for a long time , all new features since 2007 are in the direction of the simulation while they are screwing the game part , with every new release the fun factor is reduced because game side is getting smaller .

SI don't have much competition. It's either FM or FIFA Manager. Why start over when the current game still sells? Why sell datapacks for 10 quid when you can sell a new game for 40 and still make heaps amount of profit? If FIFA Manager keeps selling their product every year for the same price, and their product is downright terrible, why should SI stop selling their superior product every year.

CM are taking a year off. Why? Eidos aren't making money. EA dropped most of their PC games, SI dropped EHM. Why? Because they didn't make enough money from sales. SI are making money from FM, why should they stop?

It's your personal choice whether you want to buy the game every year or not. To answer the question, FM will continue in its current format till they stop making money. If you want change vote with your wallet.

Ad infinitum...

But would they? Even the tiny number of FM users who frequent the forums cannot agree that it would be a good idea, and would people be willing to pay for something that was free the year before?

The other massive issue would be SI only make FM, do you know any company that can afford to take half a years takings or less, because at the end of the day there will be a huge number of people who wont pay for just an update and continue playing the current version of FM. I highly doubt they can afford to do this, they would need extra staff both working on an FM11 update and this new FM game whilst making less than half the money.

I like everyone else would love to see the game take a big jump, but sadly in reality i cannot see it happening for a long time.

SI also have FM Live.

SI are also a subsidiary of Sega...they can afford it. But greed rules. And a data update would take the work of 0 programmers.

SI need to be a very small core of a company that hires specialized programmers on spec. People who really understand both the intricacies of the game and how to make them appear in a game. This is hard complicated work. But SI has wasted untold time and money introducing silly and by necessity shallow features like press conferences, player interaction and team talks. The labor these features required could have been put to better use on the AI and tactical aspects of the game. For the interactive features to really work well, they would require a massive DB.

Also, SI could still put out FM 2012 for handheld and other platforms while holding back the PC version for a year.

What do you mean no new blood?

Do you mean no new customers or no new features?

No/fewer new players.

Put it this way, i tried out FM10 on 10.3, first time ever playing FM. I didn't think it was too bad, sure there were bugs but with a game that has this much depth that's to be expected. So then FM11 comes out and i buy it, only to find out that imo the game got worse and not better. 11.3 has made FM11 much better but I still think there are aspects that are worse off then 10.3 was. So if people get that kind of feeling from the game why would the be long term customers. The die hard players will not support the game enough so you need a game that makes a really good strong first impression instead of waiting until the third patch 6-8 months later to get what people wanted. On top of that more and more 'gamers' don't care about a game this mentally demanding, they just want wild graphics and brainless play. So that restricts the niche FM fills even more then a football game.

In response to the people that thought I was way off base about the UI and all the extra clicks... first the carpal tunnel comment, really?! Come on man, the game having more clicks has nothing to do with such a thing, its the having ones mouse glued to their had all day that does, work, games, web surfing it's always there clicking or not. As for fewer clicks just making it a easier faster play... FM is an extremely intellectual game, it's not a RTS click fest. All those extra clicks some people are talking about are when my mind is racing over all the aspects of whatever I'm looking at, like do I like the player I just looked at, etc. Does that mean the UI is perfect? Of course not, the point is the UI works fine but some might think it just clunky. There are some thing in the game that don't work fine to begin with, so I'd rather SI focus on those areas more then worry about a few clicks in the UI.

SI also have FM Live.

SI are also a subsidiary of Sega...they can afford it. But greed rules. And a data update would take the work of 0 programmers.

SI need to be a very small core of a company that hires specialized programmers on spec. People who really understand both the intricacies of the game and how to make them appear in a game. This is hard complicated work. But SI has wasted untold time and money introducing silly and by necessity shallow features like press conferences, player interaction and team talks. The labor these features required could have been put to better use on the AI and tactical aspects of the game. For the interactive features to really work well, they would require a massive DB.

I agree with a lot of this.. but have to say the player interaction and team talks are good things to have in the game. However team talks are too shallow, the game tells you want you can and can't say when, come on. Player interaction is just fowled up in ways I can't even express because there doesn't seem to be any common sense in it (especially when they made tutoring based on reputation). So they are good elements to have but they need to be reworked to varied degrees.

Now that being said, SI do release new versions with shallow pointless new 'features' to encourage sales instead of people just playing last years... the most notable for me is agents. Lots of work into what simply equates to an extra fee to pay for contract negotiation, not only is it fluff but its so over done that it's annoying fluff to many.

I raised the idea before of SI just releasing a stats update for 2012 and charging for it while taking a break to get the game fixed and was viciously shouted down. Wish i'd thought before about the financial backing of Sega as well, the excuse of having to bring out a new title every year to make money to survive on just doesn't stand up now.

No/fewer new players.

Put it this way, i tried out FM10 on 10.3, first time ever playing FM. I didn't think it was too bad, sure there were bugs but with a game that has this much depth that's to be expected. So then FM11 comes out and i buy it, only to find out that imo the game got worse and not better. 11.3 has made FM11 much better but I still think there are aspects that are worse off then 10.3 was. So if people get that kind of feeling from the game why would the be long term customers. The die hard players will not support the game enough so you need a game that makes a really good strong first impression instead of waiting until the third patch 6-8 months later to get what people wanted. On top of that more and more 'gamers' don't care about a game this mentally demanding, they just want wild graphics and brainless play. So that restricts the niche FM fills even more then a football game.

To me those are the two important parts about what your saying, because there are plenty people like myself who are enjoying FM11 and dont think it has gone backwards at all, so who is right? Thus the big problem with all this "people are unhappy" or "people wont buy the next one" because its only true for some people, the forums dont give a good representation of FM players, and even then when people start polls to try and prove their point they always end up with a majority vote supporting SI or what they have done. Die hard players will continue playing because as the name suggests they are huge fans of the game and genre, yes every year they will lose customers unhappy at the last version and every year they will get new customers with people finding the game for the first time, or being old enough to enjoy it properly for the first time, this is the same with almost any game, it just so happens FM is a very niche game, but like others have said before, there is no competition worth speaking about, no game in this genre comes close to matching what FM can offer, and with such a strong hold they have on the football managment market i doubt any other game company will make a real attempt at it for a while.

So taking that into account there is no way they will delay a game for a year it just wont make any buisness sense at all.

I raised the idea before of SI just releasing a stats update for 2012 and charging for it while taking a break to get the game fixed and was viciously shouted down. Wish i'd thought before about the financial backing of Sega as well, the excuse of having to bring out a new title every year to make money to survive on just doesn't stand up now.

Yeah... a combination of short sightedness and SI/SEGA management pressure to make that yearly release. Stupid in my opinion, but I know that opinion is the minority.

SI also have FM Live.

SI are also a subsidiary of Sega...they can afford it. But greed rules. And a data update would take the work of 0 programmers.

Do you really think the sales of FM live come close to completing with the sales a new release of FM makes each year?

Doesnt matter if they are a subsidiary of sega, if they are making a loss people lose their jobs, i work for a company who are part of a huge oil corporation, last year when we struggled people were made redundant, being part of a bigger company does not give you an endless pit of money to fall back on, it gives you a bit of stability in times of trouble and a better hold in the market you are aiming for, in this case SEGA are there to sell the game for SI, thats not what SI are good at, and it appears its not what EDOS were great at, but SEGA would drop SI very quickly if they were not making them enough money.

At the end of it all guys SI are a company, companys need to make a profit, SI will not make twice as much money only selling a game every two years, so it will never happen, SEGA will not suddenly decide its better for them to make half the yearly money from an FM game and to support SI finacially. That is the sad facts of the buisness world, never mind SI should do it for the fans or anything they are a company selling us a product, not our friends offering the chance of a perfect management simulation.

To me those are the two important parts about what your saying, because there are plenty people like myself who are enjoying FM11 and dont think it has gone backwards at all, so who is right? Thus the big problem with all this "people are unhappy" or "people wont buy the next one" because its only true for some people, the forums dont give a good representation of FM players, and even then when people start polls to try and prove their point they always end up with a majority vote supporting SI or what they have done. Die hard players will continue playing because as the name suggests they are huge fans of the game and genre, yes every year they will lose customers unhappy at the last version and every year they will get new customers with people finding the game for the first time, or being old enough to enjoy it properly for the first time, this is the same with almost any game, it just so happens FM is a very niche game, but like others have said before, there is no competition worth speaking about, no game in this genre comes close to matching what FM can offer, and with such a strong hold they have on the football managment market i doubt any other game company will make a real attempt at it for a while.

So taking that into account there is no way they will delay a game for a year it just wont make any buisness sense at all.

Yeah yeah just my opinion... but people saying they are happy how it is is opinion just the same... the only way to know who is more accurate in the beliefs is to look in the SI books and see just how much they are making/losing on the game.

As for delaying one year making business sense.... if they took the time and got things core things working they'd have a better release, people that want to play the game wouldn't wait until it's in the bargain bin and the .3 patch is out, and I honestly believe the base of repeat customers would grow -much- better then the yearly half baked new versions.

Edit: In regards to SEGA and money.... if SEGA gave SI the time and money to rework much of their things then we'd have a much better game whenever it was released. But SEGA wouldn't do that, not because they can't though, they don't have endless money but they are obviously big enough they could dish out more to SI. The real fact is that SEGA are just like every other major producer (EA being the worst of them all), they don't care about how good the game is, they just want to sell as many copies as possible as often as possible. Like you said, once SI stop bringing them the money they expect they get dropped like a rock. The actual developers are the only ones that have a passion for the game itself and making the best product they can but they have their hands tied by SI/SEGA management. By the way, SEGA care far more about their console market then anything PC related and FM is nothing more then a minor footnote to them. It's not like they see it as a key game, it's just a sports game that they can get away with a yearly release just like all EA's stuff.

Yeah yeah just my opinion... but people saying they are happy how it is is opinion just the same... the only way to know who is more accurate in the beliefs is to look in the SI books and see just how much they are making/losing on the game.

As for delaying one year making business sense.... if they took the time and got things core things working they'd have a better release, people that want to play the game wouldn't wait until it's in the bargain bin and the .3 patch is out, and I honestly believe the base of repeat customers would grow -much- better then the yearly half baked new versions.

the base level of customers for this game i would imagine is huge, because again there are no other options in this genre, the majority of those unhappy will still probably buy next years game anyway because even then there will be no other option.

As you say the truth will be in the sales, if they are not worrying SI, then they will not change, but unfortunately none of us are privy to any of that info.

the base level of customers for this game i would imagine is huge, because again there are no other options in this genre, the majority of those unhappy will still probably buy next years game anyway because even then there will be no other option.

As you say the truth will be in the sales, if they are not worrying SI, then they will not change, but unfortunately none of us are privy to any of that info.

Just because this is the only option doesn't mean the customer base is huge... First off there is one major competitor, is it half as good in our minds? Not a chance, but it has the better match graphics and is tied to EA, so the vast majority of present day mindless gamers might just opt for that just because of the graphics and they can play in the match. Secondly, management games in general are not exactly a high on most lists, let alone an even more specific football manager. SI is working in probably the most narrow genre possible. The only thing working in their favor is that football is the worlds sport.

ARGH!!! There is one other issue that I just have to say but last time I mentioned it I got banned... that evil 'P' word. The primary reason SEGA and every other produce care more about consoles then PC's etc. The fact of the matter is if people have a football management fix they need to feed but aren't happy enough to pay for it... well devs and producers really need to give reason to make people spend money on their games now and I'll leave it at that. Not condoning anything though, just saying it's a fact of life in the game industry.

I've said it I don't know how many times... I'm a harsh ass jerk of a critic to SI and many parts of the game, but it's all because the game has MAD potential. I want it to reach at least half that potential so myself and everyone else can continue to enjoy it. But I honestly feel like FM11 was not a step in the right direction yet know its the path the game is on.

Just because this is the only option doesn't mean the customer base is huge... First off there is one major competitor, is it half as good in our minds? Not a chance, but it has the better match graphics and is tied to EA, so the vast majority of present day mindless gamers might just opt for that just because of the graphics and they can play in the match. Secondly, management games in general are not exactly a high on most lists, let alone an even more specific football manager. SI is working in probably the most narrow genre possible. The only thing working in their favor is that football is the worlds sport.

ARGH!!! There is one other issue that I just have to say but last time I mentioned it I got banned... that evil 'P' word. The primary reason SEGA and every other produce care more about consoles then PC's etc. The fact of the matter is if people have a football management fix they need to feed but aren't happy enough to pay for it... well devs and producers really need to give reason to make people spend money on their games now and I'll leave it at that. Not condoning anything though, just saying it's a fact of life in the game industry.

I've said it I don't know how many times... I'm a harsh ass jerk of a critic to SI and many parts of the game, but it's all because the game has MAD potential. I want it to reach at least half that potential so myself and everyone else can continue to enjoy it. But I honestly feel like FM11 was not a step in the right direction yet know its the path the game is on.

The thing is tho, people buying FM are not in it for graphics we want the huge amount of data SI have built up, FIFAMAN doesnt even come close to replicating this, yes it looks good, but how good will a computer simluated game of football ever look? You can layer as much grass detail, player detail, crowd and everything else you want but it will never compare to an actual game, and never feel exactly like a game of football, fifa and konami have tried for years and still dont get close.

I actually think the fact they are in such a niche market works in their favour, no one will really attempt to break in, because its not worth while, the sales will never merit the effort it would need to even build the database SI have.

As for the piracty thing, maybe if people didnt steal games then games companies wouldnt have to waste time and resources trying to stop them.

Needs mentioning that FM needs to keep it's development in line with the hardware it's users play it with, some aspects could be be much more advanced already but you wouldn't be playing it on the train with your average lap top if they were.

The thing is tho, people buying FM are not in it for graphics we want the huge amount of data SI have built up, FIFAMAN doesnt even come close to replicating this, yes it looks good, but how good will a computer simluated game of football ever look? You can layer as much grass detail, player detail, crowd and everything else you want but it will never compare to an actual game, and never feel exactly like a game of football, fifa and konami have tried for years and still dont get close.

I actually think the fact they are in such a niche market works in their favour, no one will really attempt to break in, because its not worth while, the sales will never merit the effort it would need to even build the database SI have.

As for the piracty thing, maybe if people didnt steal games then games companies wouldnt have to waste time and resources trying to stop them.

Yeah I agree that FIFA is completely terrible compared to FM... however there are also many other games that I thought were completely terrible that were hugely popular because it appealed to... well lets just say ignorant people out number those that can understand depth.

As for it being an advantage that it's in a niche... I can't agree with that at all. Again the only thing working in SI's favor is that it's the worlds game. Consider a couple things... I had a steam friend ask me about FM while I was playing it, asked if it's just trading players or if you play as well. As I said, management sims take a back seat to basically everything these days. Then there is EA Sports, how EA made all their money... basketball, baseball, and American Football. They are all about graphics and playing, not management... hell one of the new hot 'features' the new Madden (American football for those that don't know) was that you could enable an option for the AI to choose your own plays. They actually take more thought out of the game and promote it as a good thing. Yet these games probably sell FAR more then FM and their biggest market is only the USA while FM's is the world.

So games that are better by being dumbed down are bigger sellers, what does that tell you about the gaming community. Here's some real opinion for you, the vast majority of the population world wide are dumb as rocks, the goes straight to gaming as well. People don't get about a well thought out in depth management sim. They want killer graphics and mindless mayhem ala GTA. So a game like FM needs to hold on to as many long terms as possible and the die hards just aren't enough, they need to really please people out there.

As for your last sentence... you totally missed the point.

Needs mentioning that FM needs to keep it's development in line with the hardware it's users play it with, some aspects could be be much more advanced already but you wouldn't be playing it on the train with your average lap top if they were.

Fair point.. but to be honest I don't think FM has any technology that would really tax average systems... I play top end graphical and physics games on an old machine. The only think taxing hardware in FM is if you make a massive database and inefficient code. Nothing wrong with that though, SI don't have the numbers that groups like bioware have so it's understandable with a game so deep.

I think it's a case of concentrating on one or two major elements of the game each year. Of course I don't know what relative man hours get spread across the match engine, new features etc, but I'd like to see the ME get to a level that SI are comfortable with for at least a year, then shelve it and concentrate on new features.

It does seem like some of the features in the game are "unpolished" and I suspect this is down to time / resource pressures.

I don't think stopping with the game altogether is either viable or preferred (even from someone who is struggling with the game, I'd miss the new release) but putting a development moratorium on certain areas of the game year by year whilst other areas get a heavier focus, would be my approach and in my opinion would lead to a higher quality, more rounded game.

Needs mentioning that FM needs to keep it's development in line with the hardware it's users play it with, some aspects could be be much more advanced already but you wouldn't be playing it on the train with your average lap top if they were.

This annoys me too. In terms of video cards, the minimum requirement for Football Manager 2011 is an ATI Radeon 9800. This is just under the Crysis demo's video card requirements (http://www.crysisdemo.com/crysis-system-requirements.htm - ATI Radeon 9800 PRO), for crying out loud! Mid-range video cards 4 years ago should have absolutely no issues running the match engine in 3D with no issues - it's barebones basic compared with what was running back then.

Fifaman and FM appeal to different kind of "football managers"...

Should SI not release a "new" game next year, maybe some would play Fifaman just to get their fix but I'm quite sure there's little chance many would jump ship for good... Especially not with the NEW FM being on its way.

Fifaman is more like an expansion of FIFA's "manager mode", some sort of overgrown worldwide heir of PCFutbol... I can't honestly see FM aficionados falling for it... Myself I've tried getting into it, already back then when it was called Fifa Soccer Manager [you win a cookie if you remember it...], but it's just not my cup of tea... Too fluffy, too clunky... the good featuers are suffocated by unnecessary bits... And the GUI, my god the GUI...

Still, regardless of my personal preferences and tastes, I think it's pretty clear Fifaman can't really compete with FM, no matter how rich or powerful EA Sports are. Therefore I can't really see the whole football management community switching to a clearly inferior and different product just because the real deal is undergoing some much-needed and long-overdue "cosmetic surgery"

It's just SEGA and SI don't feel there's need for a major overhaul... and since Fifaman is no threat, there's no hurry... It's a shame because that would be a great reason to DO IT!

It's a shame really... think of the anticipation and the buzz for the NEW FOOTBALL MANAGER... Instead it's just a repetitive chain of mild interest and token positive reviews every year... on the tune of "oh, and FM 20xx is as good as last year, with the addition of English tier 7 and 8, with in-game kit editor and a bunch of tweaked featuers... Buy it, you know it's ok"

If you're "not-young" enough to remember Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix series, there was feverish anticipation for the then-breathtakingly advanced 'Grand Prix 2', something that wouldn't really have happened had Microprose released a Grand Prix 199x every single year... (and something no F1 gaming franchise has ever managed to come close to...)

Of course I'm not saying SI should publish FM every 4 years or so, but I genuinely feel the current "core" of the game has peaked and is heading to hit a plateau... why not taking advantage of the quiet gaming scene for the genre and going for a new, better and "next-gen" game?

You make some interesting points RBK. Personally I don't know where SI could go with FM now, other than to refine that what is already there to make it smoother, cleaner, more attractive and less buggy. The key features of any manager game are there PLUS additional extras that others in the genre don't include and if all worked as it is expected to then there wouldn't be much else SI could do at all.

Someone has suggested SI release a "data-update" next year and a "finished" FM version next year so let's look at this. A data-update is likely to get less than 50% of FM'ers buying it so if they released such a thing at £15 (when the game costs £30) they will essentially get 25% of their 'usual' revenues meaning they would need to sell the New FM at an increased cover price just to get back what they've lost... and if they do that then how many of the 'regulars' would say that SI are 'fleecing' us? I'd like to bet A LOT! It's a definite Lose Lose for SI and not a route that I would expect them to go down, regardless of "public opinion".