The Cristiano Ronaldo/Alexander Hleb poor attributes mystery solved

Those are an example of two players who suffer greatly when it comes to their attributes in the database and how they go down when you start a new game.

I'd been puzzled, especially after experimenting by giving Hleb more CA (Current Ability) than Silva from Valencia, in a modified database, and then seeing that Silva's attributes in the new game I started were still way above Hleb's.

And then I spotted Hleb was good with both feet. And I remembered people complaining about Cristiano Ronaldo's attributes, and he happens to be good with both feet too. I checked Silva again, and he was Left Foot only.

I'm quite sure this means that a high attribute with the second foot will detract from how the other attributes "score" each new game start-up, when this should not be the case at all. Just because a player is good with both feet it means his creativity goes down for example?

Would be good if this were looked at for FM 2009 please.

Those are an example of two players who suffer greatly when it comes to their attributes in the database and how they go down when you start a new game.

I'd been puzzled, especially after experimenting by giving Hleb more CA (Current Ability) than Silva from Valencia, in a modified database, and then seeing that Silva's attributes in the new game I started were still way above Hleb's.

And then I spotted Hleb was good with both feet. And I remembered people complaining about Cristiano Ronaldo's attributes, and he happens to be good with both feet too. I checked Silva again, and he was Left Foot only.

I'm quite sure this means that a high attribute with the second foot will detract from how the other attributes "score" each new game start-up, when this should not be the case at all. Just because a player is good with both feet it means his creativity goes down for example?

Would be good if this were looked at for FM 2009 please.

I remember PaulC mentioning, in a thread that I am too lazy to look up, that the 2nd foot stat is countered by the game as an important attribute. IIRC, he was comparing CR and Elano and was explaining how while Elano has better prima facia attributes, CR has higher values in the more important ones such as double footedness.

Going from weak foot to very strong can take up to 20 CA points.

I wonder if you could counteract this slightly with the PPM "Avoids using weaker foot".

Ie a player would only use the very strong foot and not the strong (assuming the player isn't very strong with both feet).

So maybe the strength of the weaker would reduce, as with players learning new positions, therefore releasing some CA for attribute improvement.

Is this "poor attributes" thing just solely for players listed as being able to use Both feet? Or for example is a player with a very strong left foot and fairly strong right foot, going to be affected by the so called reduction of attributes?

i would still argue that ronaldos stats are not poor. but thats another point.

is it true that going from weak to strong foot takes 20 CA points?

that shouldn't really happen especially if it does take points from other stats.

but i think in real life we may get confsued with things.

we look at ronaldo in real life and say 'wow he must be really creative he should have 20 in FM for that' wtihout realising that his creativity shown on the pitch is surely improved by the fact he can use both feet well?

so the singular stat of creativity can be a 15, for example, but his on pitch performances make it look better because he can use both feet equally well.

so the stat in itself isn't necessarily wrong. players are more than just individual stats

It needs revising, certainly. Having a two footed player who plays in the center of a pitch is certainly advantageous, but if their technique is great then they can probably get away in most situations with just one foot. Also does anyone know if it effects keepers? Because I've seen a keeper my scouts rate quite high despite him looking crap (he was either footed). What about wingers? Those who don't cut inside will rarely need to use their other foot, and being two footed is certainly less of an advantage to them as it is to an attacking midfielder, is this represented? And defenders?

It seems another feature they've implemented without putting too much thought into it, tbh.

I thought Hleb's name was Aliaksandr.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:

I thought Hleb's name was Aliaksandr. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

dislexic SI programmer?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jeeves:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:

I thought Hleb's name was Aliaksandr. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

dislexic SI programmer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you mean dyslexic?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Being two footed is a massive advantage, its as simple as that.

It makes complete sense, and is reflected in the match engine as in real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends on how two footed they are. There's plenty of players at the upper levels who can control a ball with both feet and run with the ball with both feet, but ask them to do key things with their weaker foot that they can with their stronger foot like hit a 40 yard pass, hit a 30 yard piledriver or hit a perfect cross onto the head of the striker, and their success level decreases significantly.

I understand the idea of using CA as a control on weaker foot as with other attributes, but I don't believe it should be linked in an across the board manner. For example training a weaker foot might necessarily reduce gains in other technical attributes for time reasons, but it shouldn't affect the limits on where a player's mental and physical attributes can reach which it does by 'consuming' CA points as a player develops (assuming they are playing a position involving the weaker foot or training in it).

Within the current CA/PA model it appears that you cannot improve a weaker foot without it impacting on other attributes when a player reaches close to his PA. If this is done by training then that's a fair reflection of the impact of time constraints, but would a model professional who improves his other foot through playing in an unfamiliar position not be capable of making gains in his weaker foot without losing points in other attributes? Would a fully developed (mentally and physically) player lose their mental abilities such as making the right decision, making a good off the ball run or his ability to pick a pass just because he starts training his weaker foot? As far as I can tell that's pretty much what happens within the current system, if I'm way off target then fair enough.

Maybe a new attribute could be introduced or have it linked to versatility, professionalism to indicate their capability of improving their weaker foot and whether or not they put the in the effort in training. Or whether or not they actually use the foot in matches when played on their weaker side or their preference for using their stronger foot.

Just my 2 cents on it

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

so the singular stat of creativity can be a 15, for example, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

12, to be precise lol.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:so the stat in itself isn't necessarily wrong. players are more than just individual stats </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt most of us are so stupid not to have realized that Cristiano Ronaldo's effectivity in the game is phenomenal.....

You're missing the point. If the Man Utd researcher gives Ronaldo certain attributes in the database it's because he believes those are the ones he has, and then just because the Feet attributes are included in the total CA score or whatever, he does not achieve them in the game. It spoils some people's enjoyment of the game when they see those ludicrous figures.

If it can't be helped, then so be it, but please don't try and argue that Ronaldo is a good player in FM 2008, as we already know that lol.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:

I thought Hleb's name was Aliaksandr. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which translates to Alexander in English. Is your last name Ginola?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

Being two footed is a massive advantage, its as simple as that.

It makes complete sense, and is reflected in the match engine as in real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being two footed CAN be a massive advantage. If you know how to use both feet correctly on the footballpitch. If you don't know then you're basically the same old. If you don't improve your creativity, and decisionmaking, then almostnothing will change.

Creativity and decisions won't improve automatically just because you use both feet.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roykela:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

Being two footed is a massive advantage, its as simple as that.

It makes complete sense, and is reflected in the match engine as in real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being two footed CAN be a massive advantage. If you know how to use both feet correctly on the footballpitch. If you don't know then you're basically the same old. If you don't improve your creativity, and decisionmaking, then almostnothing will change.

Creativity and decisions won't improve automatically just because you use both feet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Listen, PaulC makes the game - if he says it's a massive advantage, believe it!!!

(at least until FM09 is out )

Yeah i know the dude makes the game, and he ain't stupid

But i also know it doesn't automatically make you a better player. I know that, and i've seen it in the leagues i've been playing (real life). Some players became better, and others became worse.

It's only going to make you better if you know how to use the advantage, if not then you're more likely to go down a path where you gonna make things worse for "yourself". Happens everyday in real-life. I've seen it up in the leagues, and i still see it now as a coach.

Hopefully the game reflects this, but honestly i have no idea myself if it does, since i haven't really focused at all about that.

Still love the game though.....as always

sorry if I have missed the answer to this eleswhere - but is it possible to train a players weaker foot?

I know you can change players position but can you train the weaker foot?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gaffovski:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

so the singular stat of creativity can be a 15, for example, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

12, to be precise lol.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:so the stat in itself isn't necessarily wrong. players are more than just individual stats </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt most of us are so stupid not to have realized that Cristiano Ronaldo's effectivity in the game is phenomenal.....

You're missing the point. If the Man Utd researcher gives Ronaldo certain attributes in the database it's because he believes those are the ones he has, and then just because the Feet attributes are included in the total CA score or whatever, he does not achieve them in the game. It spoils some people's enjoyment of the game when they see those ludicrous figures.

If it can't be helped, then so be it, but please don't try and argue that Ronaldo is a good player in FM 2008, as we already know that lol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree to a point that a stat given to a player is given for a reason and should there fore be the stat in game.

but you'lve got to put constraints in that stop wildly over the top or under, stats from being entered when comparing the stats to the CA.

the CA is, in my opinion THE basis of all player ability/stats and everything else that is linked should be constrained within it.

i think this is how its worked within the game to stop plyaers from having really good stats when their CA doesn't warrent it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

the CA is, in my opinion THE basis of all player ability/stats and everything else that is linked should be constrained within it.

i think this is how its worked within the game to stop plyaers from having really good stats when their CA doesn't warrent it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the reply Postie. The problem with this is the other side of the coin - that some players' stats are ridiculously TOO good because they just have a score of 1 on their weaker foot.

Elano, Silva.....

Correction - Elano isn't quite at 1, but thereabouts.

tbh, footedness tends to be a more natural thing and shouldn't really be counted as part of the CA system

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bluenose_92:

tbh, footedness tends to be a more natural thing and shouldn't really be counted as part of the CA system </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. It's hardly a "massive advantage" if the rest of your stats plummet as a result.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gaffovski:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

the CA is, in my opinion THE basis of all player ability/stats and everything else that is linked should be constrained within it.

i think this is how its worked within the game to stop plyaers from having really good stats when their CA doesn't warrent it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the reply Postie. The problem with this is the other side of the coin - that some players' stats are ridiculously TOO good because they just have a score of 1 on their weaker foot.

Elano, Silva..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i was thinking about this while at the gym and i think i get it now.

your not necessarily saying that being two footed is NOT a benefit.

and your perhaps agreeing that in real life we may mistakinly think ronaldo is better creativily than his in game stat because we fail to factor in the two footedness.

but that the ability to use both feet or not should NOT be linked to the CA/PA.

if this is the case then i agree with you.

the ability to use two feet well should not take away points from other stats. it should merely assist them in a kindof attribute booster.

(although not in such a basic way as you may think an 'attribute booster' would be)

I don't really have anything constructive to add, just to say I never knew about this.

I'll certainly bear it in mind.

Always wondered why Ryan Babel's stats (totally Right-footed) were FAR superior to CR's.

Now I know.

It's amazing, you learn something new every day...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gaffovski:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

the CA is, in my opinion THE basis of all player ability/stats and everything else that is linked should be constrained within it.

i think this is how its worked within the game to stop plyaers from having really good stats when their CA doesn't warrent it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the reply Postie. The problem with this is the other side of the coin - that some players' stats are ridiculously TOO good because they just have a score of 1 on their weaker foot.

Elano, Silva..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i was thinking about this while at the gym and i think i get it now.

your not necessarily saying that being two footed is NOT a benefit.

and your perhaps agreeing that in real life we may mistakinly think ronaldo is better creativily than his in game stat because we fail to factor in the two footedness.

but that the ability to use both feet or not should NOT be linked to the CA/PA.

if this is the case then i agree with you.

the ability to use two feet well should not take away points from other stats. it should merely assist them in a kindof attribute booster.

(although not in such a basic way as you may think an 'attribute booster' would be) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

does anyone know for sure how much CA points the different foot variables are?

from weak left foot to very strong left foot for example?

I always wondered why my coaching staff rated Adrian Mariappa so highly, apparently it's because his weaker foot is quite strong. It seems a bit stupid that stats such as heading has reduced now though, sure he can tackle well with both feet but if he can't head the ball as a CB then he's not that much good really?

Being twofooted is a huge advantage, that for sure. Thats why Totti is such a pain to play against, but Ibrahimovic is easy to handle when you use OI(show onto weak foot)..

May I see screenshots of the attributes of Ronaldo and Hleb? I don't have FM 08, but Ronaldo's weren't poor in FM07, just REALLY AVERAGE, so poor only relatively. I vowed never to start with Man Utd on FM 07 or FM 08.

Still, Hleb and Ronaldo on my FM 07 game have good match stats.

Oh snd Rooney's was average too, is this still the case on FM 08? He wasn't either footed but was Very strong and strong footed.

It's stupid that being two footed costs you 20 PA/CA points. It's like when you are twofooted your attributes can't get as good as smeone is one-footed. I mean, what do you have on a striker that is two footed but has finishing 12 when another one-footed striker with same PA/CA has finishing 15? Two-footed is more a curse than a blessing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:

It's stupid that being two footed costs you 20 PA/CA points. It's like when you are twofooted your attributes can't get as good as smeone is one-footed. I mean, what do you have on a striker that is two footed but has finishing 12 when another one-footed striker with same PA/CA has finishing 15? Two-footed is more a curse than a blessing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

whee did you get the 20PA points from?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:

It's stupid that being two footed costs you 20 PA/CA points. It's like when you are twofooted your attributes can't get as good as smeone is one-footed. I mean, what do you have on a striker that is two footed but has finishing 12 when another one-footed striker with same PA/CA has finishing 15? Two-footed is more a curse than a blessing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

whee did you get the 20PA points from? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From this thread; http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/5822069083

But its actually more than 20 CA points if you edit a player from 1 to 20 in hes weaker foot.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joor:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:

It's stupid that being two footed costs you 20 PA/CA points. It's like when you are twofooted your attributes can't get as good as smeone is one-footed. I mean, what do you have on a striker that is two footed but has finishing 12 when another one-footed striker with same PA/CA has finishing 15? Two-footed is more a curse than a blessing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

whee did you get the 20PA points from? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From this thread; http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/5822069083

But its actually more than 20 CA points if you edit a player from 1 to 20 in hes weaker foot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow i'm going to have to set aside the whole of the bank holiday weekend to digest that

from first impressions it looks like a details test to will read it all later

I did try this. I even removed Evra's footedness (he now has a weak left foot and a weak right foot ) using various tools and his statistics make every single player in the world look rubbish. He had Off The Ball, Positioning, Work Rate, Teamwork, Crossing, Pace, Acceleration and Concentration all 20 with dashings of 19 and 18 all over the place.

The problem is, I think the attributes really do outstrip the foot strengths. It hasn't stopped Evra from matching Rooney in terms of shooting, although Evra's crossing is now so bad it is painful to watch.

Another important note is that: going from 11 to 20 in a position will use up 3-4 CA points.

But, along the same horizontal positional "level" on the pitch won't cost any CA points.

Also directly upwards from one vertical positional level to another will not cost any CA points(ML to AML, MR to AMR, DMC to MC to AMC).

F.eks, if you have a Left back and retrain him to right midfilder it will take up 4 CA points.

Try edit C. Ronaldo positions before you start a new game, where hes natural in AMR only. Check hes technical stats now

Good detective work there Joor.

Good detective work there Joor.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joor:

Another important note is that: going from 11 to 20 in a position will use up 3-4 CA points.

But, along the same horizontal positional "level" on the pitch won't cost any CA points.

Also directly upwards from one vertical positional level to another will not cost any CA points(ML to AML, MR to AMR, DMC to MC to AMC).

F.eks, if you have a Left back and retrain him to right midfilder it will take up 4 CA points.

Try edit C. Ronaldo positions before you start a new game, where hes natural in AMR only. Check hes technical stats now </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i've got an 18 year old utility plyaaer who can play dl/dc/dm/lm

does that mean he wont amount to anything? the coach says he could be better than gareth bale.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">originally posted by postal postie:-

i've got an 18 year old utility plyaaer who can play dl/dc/dm/lm

does that mean he wont amount to anything? the coach says he could be better than gareth bale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you do get round to reading the thread Joor linked to you'll see there was disagreement over certain things (from me anyway).

This is just my theory on it (others disagreed) but the way people tested this using the editor is different to how the game behaves in player development. When a player has more positions it tells the game to distribute CA points to the relevant positions that he has a certain rating in. I don't believe that it takes points from other possible attributes but distributes to the non free attributes related to the positions.

The free attributes are different attributes that cost no CA for a particular position but it also appears that these are affecting how players develop under AI managers as these free attributes don't seem to increase for AI managed players.

You have a situation there that could shed a bit of light on it so if you are not averse to doing so, could you check his CA, take a screenshot of his attributes/positions now. And do the same 3 or 4 years later for comparison (even a year later would probably show a pattern). Given his position ratings I would say all of his attributes will change because with the positions he has, he has no free attributes.

I just noticed something else. Goalkeepers are also affected by this! What real advantage is there for a goalie to be good with his weaker foot, when it detracts from all his goalkeeping skills??

Case in point - Igor Akinfeev.

If being good with both feet is meant to be an advantage, then make it so! Is it an advantage or isn't it? You can't honestly say it's an advantage if the rest of his stats suffer as a result of this.

And I've noticed plenty of people commenting that Cristiano Ronaldo is nowhere near as good in the game as in real life. While I'm sure it's not the only reason, making dual footedness not impact on the CA/PA negatively, would go a long way in remedying this.

I can't for the life of me understand why SI chose to do it.

A few things, that I learned from reading the thread referenced above about a month ago (so all due credit to those posters):

Two-footedness affects passing, crossing, tackling, and shooting (and maybe another stat I've forgotten).

Because of this, two-footedness generally benefits certain positions more than others. For example, a two footed ST can finish opportunities on either side w/ power. A two-footed CM can distribute the ball more effectively to either side. A bit counter-intuitively, even a CD can tackle better on either side.

That said, several other factors seem to have an effect on the benefit of two-footedness. For example, the width of your defense can affect which side of your back an opposing winger attacks; the tempo of your play can determine whether or not your CM has time to settle the ball and move it to his preferred foot; the movement of your winger can determine whether or not he cuts inside and puts the ball on his weaker foot.

The match engine takes the foot a cross, tackle, shot, or pass occurs w/ and penalizes the success according to a players rating. So for example, Ronaldo may not appear the better player at initial glance at his attributes, but in the match engine he has a distinct advantage when it comes to a large number of situations (depending on tactics).

There are a few difficulties with the system:

(1) At least initially (w/ the installation of the 8.02), it resulted in dropping the stats given by the researchers. I believe it's been mentioned that in the future this will be handled by giving the researchers a better tool.

(2) Understanding a player's talent via his attributes has become far less intuitive, which is the core of what a lot of people are complaining about.

However, I do understand why the 20 PA is necessary. Because of the way the match engine handles these attributes, not "charging" them to the PA would result in a God-like Ronaldo and other similar players w/ CA and PA close to 200 and two-footedness.

I just raise C. Ronaldo's technical stats by 1 in the editor.