Putting Old Firm in England?

I'm thinking of starting a game with Celtic and Rangers in the English Leagues, but i dont REALLY want to just put them straight in the Premiership. What Division could i put them in so that the current players dont want a mass exodus to play for higher clubs, and that the finances wont go way into the red after just 1 Season?

The championship is probably your best bet as this is where they would both end up after a couple of seasons in the premier league anyway.

Ok, im having a weird problem, i've swapped Celtic and Rangers with Millwall and Scunthorpe (the 2 lowest Reputaton Championship Teams), but when i try and start a new game, i cant select England due to an error 'Team found in npower Championship with wrong nation set', ive checked C and R, both are set to England, so i dont know what else i can change, the Scottish League is fine, so M and S somehow sorted themselves fine.

Just play as Middlesbrough. Strachan signed pretty much an entire team consisting of Rangers & Celtic players see how you do with them ;-)

The championship is probably your best bet as this is where they would both end up after a couple of seasons in the premier league anyway.

Considering both teams would get £50m+ xtra each season for TV revenue and new sponsorship income to purchase new and better players your talking absolute nonsense. And considering some Scottish rejects have done really well in the Premiership shows your talking even more nonsense.

The championship is probably your best bet as this is where they would both end up after a couple of seasons in the premier league anyway.

i'm not scottish (as my name might suggest)

i'm sorry but stop talking nonsense, rangers and celtic might not compete in the 1st few years but both being huge clubs compared to wigan, fulham, bolton and co will easily see them competing within 3 - 4 years with 50,000 + crowds

i also wouldn't agree with rangers and celtic being in the english league system but that doesn't mean i would disregard them as contenders after a few years (maybe not title contenders but europe)

i'm not scottish (as my name might suggest)

i'm sorry but stop talking nonsense, rangers and celtic might not compete in the 1st few years but both being huge clubs compared to wigan, fulham, bolton and co will easily see them competing within 3 - 4 years with 50,000 + crowds

i also wouldn't agree with rangers and celtic being in the english league system but that doesn't mean i would disregard them as contenders after a few years (maybe not title contenders but europe)

Much like you I to agree given time these two could certainly become contenders due to the support and people forget Celtic have one of the biggest followings in the world and playing in a higher standard league would generate vast income and do very well after a few years.

But I to would like to see them remain in the Scottish league as they are after all Scottish teams I just wish we could send the Welsh teams to their own league as well.

The championship is probably your best bet as this is where they would both end up after a couple of seasons in the premier league anyway.

A great man once said people in England, unless they've had some involvement with either club, can't comprehend the size of Rangers and Celtic

Ok, im having a weird problem, i've swapped Celtic and Rangers with Millwall and Scunthorpe (the 2 lowest Reputaton Championship Teams), but when i try and start a new game, i cant select England due to an error 'Team found in npower Championship with wrong nation set', ive checked C and R, both are set to England, so i dont know what else i can change, the Scottish League is fine, so M and S somehow sorted themselves fine.

i done the same thing and put them both in champioship,i didnt use the editor though i done it writing a notepad file and the nation or other problems wont crop up and both clubs in effect will be english clubs

what do u put in the notepad file to make the change? ive only ever used the editor itself.

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Milwall" "Celtic"

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Scunthorpe" "Rangers"

then save as oldfirm.edt and your good to go

double check its in the edt folder before your start

as it stands and thats all you can comment on (dont speculate on what would happen in a few years) the old firm sides would not compete for anything bar maybe a relegation spot. yes they have great fans and stadiums but are no where near a quality standard of football.

as it stands and thats all you can comment on (dont speculate on what would happen in a few years) the old firm sides would not compete for anything bar maybe a relegation spot. yes they have great fans and stadiums but are no where near a quality standard of football.

I agree. Due to the financial strap in recent years, I doubt there would be much competition, but the best OF teams of the last 10 years wouldn't have had any problem surviving in the PL. That's when they both had the cash to afford half decent squads.

in the game that is not so,as when i done it first season in championship both teams were promoted finishing 1st and 2nd after dodgy starts

2nd season with rangers i was given 30m first season in prem and bought up most premiership teams transfer listed players and luckily finished 2nd while celtic did get relegated

3rd season only 10m finished top 4 and celtic got promoted again

4th season 30m again finished in top 4 again and celtic mid table

5th season 50m and won premiership and again celtic mid table

and beyond that im dominating the premiership and champs league and celtic are improving season after season with top 6 finishes

I think Celtic/Rangers in the EPL could do alright, they've got a big fanbase, and while they might struggle at first and would do best starting in the championship, with the huge money available in the EPL combined with their good attendances & following they could be quite a force.

I wish England would take them. They are both Scotlands shame and only holding back the development of our football.

I think the current Celtic squad would do ok in the PL. Probably be a fight but I think they would stay up if the team was put in as is.

Rangers on the other hand....well. That would be very difficult.

I wish England would take them. They are both Scotlands shame and only holding back the development of our football.

i wonder what would happen to the scottish league. who's running that game?

I wish England would take them. They are both Scotlands shame and only holding back the development of our football.

I think the current Celtic squad would do ok in the PL. Probably be a fight but I think they would stay up if the team was put in as is.

Rangers on the other hand....well. That would be very difficult.

Dont a lot of the other clubs rely on the income generated from attendances when they play Celtic/Rangers?

I personally wish that something could be done because as is there will not be a team in Scotland that will win the SPL appart from Celtic & Rangers but as long as Celtic keep winning I won't complain I think that if they weren't in the league the SPL would be opened up dramatically and the league title would be up for grabs for anyone and it would be more competitive. Also because Celtic & Rangers wouldn't be playing in that league another couple of European slots would open up for other teams as well so there is that plus. The only downside to it is the financial aspect as a lot of the other teams (even though the fans of them probably wouldn't admit it) rely on the money that these fixtures bring in, but with more European slots open for other teams and bonuses for winning titles I think really that there are more pluses for The Old Firm playing in a different league than cons.

The championship is probably your best bet as this is where they would both end up after a couple of seasons in the premier league anyway.

This is pure rubbish because it's been proved in matches over the last few years that they can handle their own. Celtic have beaten the likes of Blackburn, Liverpool & Manchester United in both European competitions in the last few years. I think after a couple of seasons they would do extremely well. Maybe not title contenders within the first few years but would definately compete for top half table spots.

I wish England would take them. They are both Scotlands shame and only holding back the development of our football.

I think the current Celtic squad would do ok in the PL. Probably be a fight but I think they would stay up if the team was put in as is.

Rangers on the other hand....well. That would be very difficult.

How are they holding back the development of Scottish football? I have read many times about the lack of revenue some other clubs in the SPL get and that they struggle from week to week yet what do I see when these teams play? Grounds that are not even half full. If fans went to support their teams that would be a help for income as more fans going to the games would equal more income for the clubs. PLUS they only seem to pack the grounds out WHEN Celtic or Rangers are playing them - any other times the fans hardly turn up so sometimes I think the other teams really NEED Celtic & Rangers to stay in the SPL so they can get some decent revenue. It also doesn't help when teams other than Celtic & Rangers voted against some sort of big money deal with Sky a few years ago. Seems kind of silly throwing a money deal down the drain when teams were, and are, needing it. The way it seems is that the SPL need Celtic & Rangers more than Celtic & Rangers need the SPL.

as it stands and thats all you can comment on (dont speculate on what would happen in a few years) the old firm sides would not compete for anything bar maybe a relegation spot. yes they have great fans and stadiums but are no where near a quality standard of football.

And the likes of West Ham, Fulham, Wigan, Blackpool, Birmingham, Stoke ARE of a better quality standard of football? I don't think so.

Some people think that because they are Scottish teams they should stay in Scotland, but yet why is it ok for the likes of Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham to play in the English leagues? A bit of a double standard there I think.

Until something happens though it will just obviously carry on the way it is and with Celtic winning a good few more titles along the way

The last thing we need is Rangers anti football in the Premier League and the genuine thuggary that both teams bring to football

The last thing we need is Rangers anti football in the Premier League and the genuine thuggary that both teams bring to football

Yawn !! Hes talking about the pc game not real life!! so you need to get a grip with the anti football jibes! Also the reason we play like that is there is no money in the scottish game, sky have given it all to the epl. i'm, sure if we had the money to compete and play pretty football we would!

ps on another note i like how leabving celtic out if that statement you make it sounds is if theyre whiter than white!

How are they holding back the development of Scottish football? I have read many times about the lack of revenue some other clubs in the SPL get and that they struggle from week to week yet what do I see when these teams play? Grounds that are not even half full. If fans went to support their teams that would be a help for income as more fans going to the games would equal more income for the clubs. PLUS they only seem to pack the grounds out WHEN Celtic or Rangers are playing them - any other times the fans hardly turn up so sometimes I think the other teams really NEED Celtic & Rangers to stay in the SPL so they can get some decent revenue. It also doesn't help when teams other than Celtic & Rangers voted against some sort of big money deal with Sky a few years ago. Seems kind of silly throwing a money deal down the drain when teams were, and are, needing it. The way it seems is that the SPL need Celtic & Rangers more than Celtic & Rangers need the SPL.

The Old Firm have the SPL over a barrel. All the money goes to the Old Firm and they seem to have the deciding vote on everything. Yes, the other clubs in the SPL rely on Old Firm money twice/3 times a year and yes the only time they fill their stadia is when Rangers or Celtic are in town. However, I think that with the Old Firm gone and with the increase in competetivness, the fans of those respective clubs will remember who they support. Every team in the SPL wants the Old Firm gone, the Old Firm want to leave, whats stopping them? I think if this Atlantic League or whatever its called went ahead, that would be the best thing for them. Once Rangers and Celtic are gone, we can get rid of those idiots at the SFA and the SPL, amalgamate the two and maybe see a half decent league up here.

And the likes of West Ham, Fulham, Wigan, Blackpool, Birmingham, Stoke ARE of a better quality standard of football? I don't think so.

and my point exactly, which i thankyou for confirming. those teams you mention are struggling for thier premiership survival this year and most years tbh. but yet being an avid football fan who watchs most epl games and spl games. those teams you mention still play a better standard of football no doubt about it.

These threads always end up with folk arguing over how well the old firm would do, most sensible folk know that both rangers and celtic would do very well indeed with the finances provided in the EPL providing they could survive there first season, heck even relegation would be ok in the long run as the championship generates more money than the diddy league that is scottish premier.

Having said that I dont like to see teams playing outside national divisions, derserting your own league to line pockets seems sad and the arse will inevitably fall out of the EPL anyway, sky wont fund it forever

I wish England would take them. They are both Scotlands shame and only holding back the development of our football.

I think the current Celtic squad would do ok in the PL. Probably be a fight but I think they would stay up if the team was put in as is.

Rangers on the other hand....well. That would be very difficult.

How did you come to that conclusion? If Rangers win the games in hand were top. We are competing in the last 16 of the Europa league after performing relatively ok in the champions league where as Celtic got put out two competitions by Braga and the team that finished 7th in Eredivise last season.

I would love to go to England, Rangers and Celtic have bigger fanbases than the so called big sides in England. For example the season we got to the Last 16 in the CL and played Villarreall we took around 15 thousand. Arsenal played them in the semi-final and only took around 3 thousand. Rangers and Celtic will never live up to there reputation in this footballing backwater.

The last thing we need is Rangers anti football in the Premier League and the genuine thuggary that both teams bring to football

Maybe if you supported a team in your home country rather than an English side the bigger teams in Ulster wouldent be near bankrupt? Why dont you go to Windsor, the Oval, Solitude (god help you) or whever your local team play and support the Northern Irish league?

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Milwall" "Celtic"

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Scunthorpe" "Rangers"

then save as oldfirm.edt and your good to go

double check its in the edt folder before your start

Remember to make sure that when your saving the game you chose 'All files' as the file type. If you dont do this then the filename will be oldfirm.edt.txt and the game will not recognise it. You'll also have to start a new game for the edt file to work but I suppose you already realised this did you?

How did you come to that conclusion? If Rangers win the games in hand were top. We are competing in the last 16 of the Europa league after performing relatively ok in the champions league where as Celtic got put out two competitions by Braga and the team that finished 7th in Eredivise last season.

I would love to go to England, Rangers and Celtic have bigger fanbases than the so called big sides in England. For example the season we got to the Last 16 in the CL and played Villarreall we took around 15 thousand. Arsenal played them in the semi-final and only took around 3 thousand. Rangers and Celtic will never live up to there reputation in this footballing backwater.

Must agree with you there. It was like when Celtic played in the UEFA Cup Final - more than 80,000 fans travelled to Seville. The times they played Barcelona, a lot more than 10,000 fans travelled over. When Man Utd played in the final of the Champions League a couple of years ago only 40,000+ travelled to see them. Even in the friendlies the fans travel in their 1000s.

The last thing we need is Rangers anti football in the Premier League and the genuine thuggary that both teams bring to football

This is complete rubbish because how many times have Celtic or Rangers been banned from any European competitions because of fan trouble? Celtic have continually received plaudits for the fans wherever they have went and have actually been given awards by UEFA. Even when 80,000+ fans travelled to Seville there was not one single arrest or bit of trouble. The Celtic fans even partied WITH the Porto fans. Villareal fans started Celtic fan clubs after they played them in the UEFA Cup in season of 2003/2004.

and my point exactly, which i thankyou for confirming. those teams you mention are struggling for thier premiership survival this year and most years tbh. but yet being an avid football fan who watchs most epl games and spl games. those teams you mention still play a better standard of football no doubt about it.

I think you missed my point - the teams I mentioned, in my opinion, do not play a better standard of football. They play IN a better league standard compared to the Scottish leagues but as in those teams actually PLAYING better football I don't agree with because how many honours have those teams I mentioned received compared to Celtic & Rangers? Not many.

well i do think the epl sides mentioned do play a better quality of football, down to having better players - regardless of league. but if you're going to bring in the "how many title/honours have you won", thats purely down to opportunity more than anything else, especially in recent years at least.

listen i do like the spl and follow celtic quite closely, but as it stands player for player - man for man - players on paper the old firm sides are not what they once were and would not compete in epl (as it stands).

Remember to make sure that when your saving the game you chose 'All files' as the file type. If you dont do this then the filename will be oldfirm.edt.txt and the game will not recognise it. You'll also have to start a new game for the edt file to work but I suppose you already realised this did you?

yeah i know my laptop just automatically registered as a txt file as i have only use notepad for txt files anyway

But I to would like to see them remain in the Scottish league as they are after all Scottish teams I just wish we could send the Welsh teams to their own league as well.

just because us welsh teams are better than most in the english league

Dfa120374: Rangers took 150 thousand at least Manchester aswell as Celtic's amount to Sevilla. Rangers have the record for travelling support in the CL outwith the final.

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Milwall" "Celtic"

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Scunthorpe" "Rangers"

then save as oldfirm.edt and your good to go

double check its in the edt folder before your start

I might be being dumb but i havnt got a edt folder. can you write the location after reading this thread i feel like a bash before the patch at celtic. So like C:USer/doucment........

thanks

Sorry was being really dumb. Tried putting it into the documents........Got it now. :~

DONT FROGET TO CHANGE THE SPELLING OF MILLWALL. lol took me an hor to figur out why it wouldnt work. i copied and pasted. mil L wall not milwall. lol

Dfa120374: Rangers took 150 thousand at least Manchester aswell as Celtic's amount to Sevilla. Rangers have the record for travelling support in the CL outwith the final.

Was closer to 130,000 actually but I wasn't contesting who has any kind of record for taking the most fans anywhere. I was purely mentioning fan bases for Celtic as well as Rangers and agreeing with what you were saying in your first reply.

well i do think the epl sides mentioned do play a better quality of football, down to having better players - regardless of league. but if you're going to bring in the "how many title/honours have you won", thats purely down to opportunity more than anything else, especially in recent years at least.

listen i do like the spl and follow celtic quite closely, but as it stands player for player - man for man - players on paper the old firm sides are not what they once were and would not compete in epl (as it stands).

The only part I agree with you about the teams I mentioned is that they play at a higher level of football only with it being the EPL. I admit that the level of football in the EPL is a higher quality than the SPL, but player for player in team for team I wouldn't agree with you on the lower end league teams in the EPL playing better quality football but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one The only way we'd know for sure is if they were playing each other on a regular basis, and until then it's all just purely down to opinion and judgement. I enjoy watching the EPL as well and as often as I can (not as much as what I could as I live in the States now) and the level is different. Celtic haven't been as good as what they were under Martin O'Neill and even Gordon Strachan, I agree, and I think that when Tony Mowbray came in he demolished a decent Celtic team as he inherited Gordon Strachan's side - which reached the last 16 of the Champions League twice and in this age of football is a damn good feat for a Scottish club playing with the restrictions they have in the Scottish League (i.e. finances). The way we have been playing now is MUCH better and slowly getting there but I think that Celtic and Rangers would be able to hold their own in England - even if they got relegated from the EPL to the Championship they would do very well as they would have to up their level of football and they would adjust to it well enough.

These threads always end up with folk arguing over how well the old firm would do, most sensible folk know that both rangers and celtic would do very well indeed with the finances provided in the EPL providing they could survive there first season, heck even relegation would be ok in the long run as the championship generates more money than the diddy league that is scottish premier.

Having said that I dont like to see teams playing outside national divisions, derserting your own league to line pockets seems sad and the arse will inevitably fall out of the EPL anyway, sky wont fund it forever

Money comes into it no matter what league you play in because the leagues need the money, period, and as long as there is a demand for it the funding will still be there. But with Celtic & Rangers it wouldn't be purely to do with money for the move - it's to do a lot more with competition because as I mentioned in my earlier post, as it stands no other team will win the SPL appart from either Rangers or Celtic so there's no real competition there. I mean the last team to win the title outwith the Old Firm was Aberdeen in the season of 1984/1985 - almost 30 years ago!!

Take Celtic & Rangers out of the SPL and the league opens up completely; you will never know who will win it, two more spots will open up for other Scottish teams to have a chance and play in Europe (which will generate more revenue for them) and I think it would be more exciting than what it is because at the moment it's nothing but Celtic & Rangers. For me they have outgrown the SPL but unfortunately I can't see anything happening soon BUT I think something will happen, wether it be some kind of British League or European League or whatever. Guess we'll just have to wait and see

in one of my save i ve got celtic,rangers,heart,both dundee,hibs,kilmanork,motherwell and aberdeen play in english league to see what could happen.exept dundee utd(L1) all start in the championship.

after 4 seasons only celtic (3 season),rangers(2) and heart(2) play in the epl with in the fourth all 3 in there,the rest playing this season in the champioship.Celtic have a good squad and pushing close for europe and ranger have a decent squd to avoid going down again as yoyo team.heart should go down again having lost their best striker di santo .In the championship most scottish team are trying to avoid going in L1 exept dundee who push for play off

Don't know if much has changed since fm10 but last year I put celtic and rangers in L2. They survived financially as the crowds stayed high and moved up the leagues.

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Milwall" "Celtic"

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Scunthorpe" "Rangers"

then save as oldfirm.edt and your good to go

double check its in the edt folder before your start

Does this work on FM10, how many teams can I safely swap?

Originally Posted by dave7867

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Milwall" "Celtic"

"SWAP_TEAMS" "Scunthorpe" "Rangers"

then save as oldfirm.edt and your good to go

double check its in the edt folder before your start

Ok i must be really stupid but i do not know where to input this file - can someone please spell it out to me!!

Was closer to 130,000 actually but I wasn't contesting who has any kind of record for taking the most fans anywhere. I was purely mentioning fan bases for Celtic as well as Rangers and agreeing with what you were saying in your first reply.

)

I was there and it was more, but anyway. Take Rangers and them out of Scotland and the league dies. Its as simple as that.

"Ok, im having a weird problem, i've swapped Celtic and Rangers with Millwall and Scunthorpe (the 2 lowest Reputaton Championship Teams), but when i try and start a new game, i cant select England due to an error 'Team found in npower Championship with wrong nation set', ive checked C and R, both are set to England, so i dont know what else i can change, the Scottish League is fine, so M and S somehow sorted themselves fine."

Im having the same problem - I wanna put both Rangers and Celtic into the championship - i tried using editor but did not work

Please any help would be great

Too say that Rangers/Celtic could'nt survuve in the Premeir League is scandalous. There results in recent years have proven they can compete (and beat) English sides - more recently against Unioted Rangers drew at Old Trafford and only lost at home by a late penalty.

A move to the Premier league would mean they could attract better players and they would probably be some of the best supported teams in the league - Rangers ave 51,000, celtic 60,000.

Nevertheless I don't think the Old Firm moving to England would be a good idea - it would damage the SPL many of whom sides best crowds are when the Old Firm bring large away support. The likes of any other side than them in the Champions League, Hearts, Dundee United etc would not even make the group stages.

I was there and it was more, but anyway. Take Rangers and them out of Scotland and the league dies. Its as simple as that.

How could you tell it was closer to 150,000 from 130,000 simply by being there?? Did you count?

I was there and it was more, but anyway. Take Rangers and them out of Scotland and the league dies. Its as simple as that.

Totally disagree because of the points I made earlier with the league opening up, more competition, more competitiveness and another two European spots opening for the other teams which equals more revenue. PLUS all the other teams want Celtic & them gone anyway because they don't like the two teams so we'd be doing everyone a favour.

Too say that Rangers/Celtic could'nt survuve in the Premeir League is scandalous. There results in recent years have proven they can compete (and beat) English sides - more recently against Unioted Rangers drew at Old Trafford and only lost at home by a late penalty.

A move to the Premier league would mean they could attract better players and they would probably be some of the best supported teams in the league - Rangers ave 51,000, celtic 60,000.

Couldn't agree with you more here

Nevertheless I don't think the Old Firm moving to England would be a good idea - it would damage the SPL many of whom sides best crowds are when the Old Firm bring large away support. The likes of any other side than them in the Champions League, Hearts, Dundee United etc would not even make the group stages.

Don't agree with you so much on this point though

At the moment the biggest crowds come when teams do play the Old Firm yes but this, to me, is purely because they obviously just want to see them get one over on Celtic or Rangers. They don't want to go watch their team play anyone else as much because it maybe doesn't have the attraction and it's not as if they are fighting for the title. You see them come out in their droves when they are on a cup run, so why wouldn't it be the same if they were competing for the league? Take the two teams away and with the competition opening up a lot more I think the fans of the other teams would start to come more to see their teams play as they would ALL (not just seeing two teams as it is now) be competing for the SPL title. At the moment the teams outwith the Old Firm are just playing to see who can get 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. It's a two horse race as soon as the first day of the season comes round.

As for Europe, they wouldn't reach the group stages no but once they started playing more at that level then you never know what would happen in a good few years and at least they would be having the chance to play in Europe as well where-as at the moment they wouldn't because the spots would be taken by Celtic and Rangers. Even the revenue the teams would get for the qualifying stanges alone would be good for them. Fulham reached a major European final only last year - demolishing Juventus on the way. Now who would have thought that 5 or 10 years ago?

I think it would be good for Scottish football AND for Celtic & Rangers.

It's too late for Rangers & Celtic to ever play in the English leagues. They would have to kick two teams out of the premier league and relegat two extra teams from league divisions and kick two teams out of the football league altogether (which just isn't fair and would result in the death of a few teams.) And anyone who questions why the welsh teams are in the English leagues, they joined early on in the football league and have often played in the fa cup (cardiff actually won it once in 1920 something) so they have every right to be there, also they are genuinely quite big clubs, and the welsh league is best compared to the conference and Cardiff and Swansea are well to big for that (fair enough wrexham are terrible, but they would kill the welsh league).

Also it would unlikely be good for scottish football as the lower sides who would take the old firms place in europe would do terribly and the league would move down in Uefa rankings, and therefore less money, less teams qualifying, and the quality of football would just get worse ans worse.

Also it would unlikely be good for scottish football as the lower sides who would take the old firms place in europe would do terribly and the league would move down in Uefa rankings, and therefore less money, less teams qualifying, and the quality of football would just get worse ans worse.

This! it'd be more competitive without the old firm - many different teams could win probably, but at a cost of losing viability in europe - and that'd be a bitter pill.

It's too late for Rangers & Celtic to ever play in the English leagues. They would have to kick two teams out of the premier league and relegat two extra teams from league divisions and kick two teams out of the football league altogether (which just isn't fair and would result in the death of a few teams.) And anyone who questions why the welsh teams are in the English leagues, they joined early on in the football league and have often played in the fa cup (cardiff actually won it once in 1920 something) so they have every right to be there, also they are genuinely quite big clubs, and the welsh league is best compared to the conference and Cardiff and Swansea are well to big for that (fair enough wrexham are terrible, but they would kill the welsh league).

Also it would unlikely be good for scottish football as the lower sides who would take the old firms place in europe would do terribly and the league would move down in Uefa rankings, and therefore less money, less teams qualifying, and the quality of football would just get worse ans worse.

This point sums it up entirely. Here is my own personal comparison of league compared to England:

SPL (excluding old firm) - Championship (at best) to league one.

Welsh premier: Conference north/conference south - certainly today when you compare the likes of the conference league which is rapidly growing in stature eg: Crawley, AFC Wimbledon, Luton etc.

Northen Irish premier: league one (at best - league 2)

Eircom prem: league one (at best) - league 2

It's too late for Rangers & Celtic to ever play in the English leagues. They would have to kick two teams out of the premier league and relegat two extra teams from league divisions and kick two teams out of the football league altogether (which just isn't fair and would result in the death of a few teams.) And anyone who questions why the welsh teams are in the English leagues, they joined early on in the football league and have often played in the fa cup (cardiff actually won it once in 1920 something) so they have every right to be there, also they are genuinely quite big clubs, and the welsh league is best compared to the conference and Cardiff and Swansea are well to big for that (fair enough wrexham are terrible, but they would kill the welsh league).

Also it would unlikely be good for scottish football as the lower sides who would take the old firms place in europe would do terribly and the league would move down in Uefa rankings, and therefore less money, less teams qualifying, and the quality of football would just get worse ans worse.

As long as Scotland doesn't do worse they wouldn't lose any competitive places in Europe. The amount of places that are allowed in Europe for teams comes from how well the national team does as well as how well the league teams do. This is why the winners of the SPL in the season 03/04 were granted an automatic group place in the Champions League - because Celtic got to the final of the Europa League the season before. But it's to do with how well Scotland do as well which will affect the amount of Europe spots. Like I say, as long as Scotland doesn't do any worse they wouldn't lose at spots. And the lower league teams that make it into Europe would gradually get better if they play at that level but that's where the competitiveness would come into it more because there would be more to fight for than just league places - there would be the SPL title which, as I have said repeatedly, would be up for grabs by anyone and not just the same two teams.

I do agree with how the two would come into the English leages though because if they went into the EPL, for example, it wouldn't be fair for two teams to be punted out to make way for Celtic & Rangers and to me that is the only problem - how the two would enter into the English league system, but that is the only problem I see. I see nothing else but pluses for Celtic, Rangers and the rest of Scottish football.

How could you tell it was closer to 150,000 from 130,000 simply by being there?? Did you count?

Totally disagree because of the points I made earlier with the league opening up, more competition, more competitiveness and another two European spots opening for the other teams which equals more revenue. PLUS all the other teams want Celtic & them gone anyway because they don't like the two teams so we'd be doing everyone a favour.

The other teams rely on us so much its unebelievable. Last season there was a relegation decider between Kilmarnock and Falkirk. My mate went to it. Now, thats as big a match as its going to get outwith Rangers/Celtic and yet tickets were still available? So they couldent turn out for one game, never mind any other games. No offence right, but I go to football in Scotland week in week out. I see it with my own eyes. I go to say Kilmarnock away, and Rangers have more fans there than the home teams. This shows that we run Scottish football. the quicker we leave and let the no mark teams who hate us die, the better. **** everyone else We are the Glasgow Rangers. We run this country.