PDA

View Full Version : Does game engine show 100% accurate interpretation/presentation of players?



Dr. Cheesesteak
04-03-2011, 02:07
Almost 90% of the time there is a bouncing ball in a wide open, unoccupied area, my players don't hustle to the ball. They just walk to the ball. The CPU opponent's players sprint. This is when the players are in different directions/positions/angles (i.e. not running side by side towards the ball). 90% of the time, the CPU gains possession, regardless of distance of either team's players. (Hopefully that description makes sense)

Is this just the game engine showing a bad representation of my players just not being fast enough or losing a challenge-type of deal? Or is this an actual show of acceleration or aggression or some sort of mix of stats, etc?

Thanks!

edit: realized thread title is a bit misleading. I don't mean physical looks. I should've titled it "accurate presentation/interpretation of the RESULT"

CityAndColour
04-03-2011, 12:32
If it does then the match engine is in a horrendous state. If it doesn't then it's a problem in itself as the match engine representation should really be one of, if not the cornerstone of the game.

Right now it just plays like an error-strewn basketball fast break.

milnerpoint
04-03-2011, 12:36
i wouldnt say the ME is in a horrible state at all, its not like FIFA or PES who have worked on nothing but their ME for years and years but its still very very good, there are issues like you have stated where it appears players stop or slow down for no reason which makes you think its a problem with your player where infact its only an ME misrepresentation, but take a PKM to the bugs forum and ask the guys to have a look if you think it is happening too often, they will advise if they are aware of such a problem or not.

CityAndColour
04-03-2011, 12:57
milner, it happens constantly though. It's not like once every two or three games a defender decides to stop or run the wrong way. They consistently do the same things, and as a result you get a match engine where attacking players are always two and three steps ahead, and seemingly harmless and straight forward passes turn into constant defence-splitting passes.

CityAndColour
04-03-2011, 13:00
Not to mention defenders chasing the ball towards their own goal, and then jerking backwards in mid air to allow the attacker past them.

milnerpoint
04-03-2011, 13:19
im not denying there are issues as i say the 3d match engine is quite new in the bigger context of things it will be a constant work in progress especially when compared to companies that focus soley on that aspect, if you do feel it is happening too often raise a concern with SI, provide them with PKM's of this happening and they will investigate. There is a mention of what you are describing in the match engine updates especailly where defenders miss headers and allow people through on goal so hopefully you will see a good improvement with the third patch.

stevie_G_32201
04-03-2011, 13:24
i get this all the time too, really annoyed me in the F.A cup final, my defender had a lot of ground in front of the attacker on the way back to my goal higher pace, higher acceleration and the headstart. if you were watching a real game you would bet your house he would get to the ball first, he runs a few steps then just slows down to almost a walk while the opposition player sprints past him, takes the ball puts in a cross and there the goal is, 1-0 down within 7 minutes. i see things like this all over the pitch, central defenders doing the same from goal kicks, the attacking midfielders not bothering at all either.

CityAndColour
04-03-2011, 14:57
im not denying there are issues as i say the 3d match engine is quite new in the bigger context of things it will be a constant work in progress especially when compared to companies that focus soley on that aspect, if you do feel it is happening too often raise a concern with SI, provide them with PKM's of this happening and they will investigate. There is a mention of what you are describing in the match engine updates especailly where defenders miss headers and allow people through on goal so hopefully you will see a good improvement with the third patch.

Mate, seriously. We're not talking about little things or rough edges, we're talking about glaring fundamental errors that seem to repeat themselves in every version. They are things that should be picked up by anyone playing the game for five minutes, let alone those who test the game. I've paid my money for the product, why do I need to then start logging examples of obvious game flaws, only to be told "it's a known issue and under review" and have it appear in FM12.

It is, forgive my French, an absolutely f*cking disgraceful match engine. Sure it looks pretty when attackers stream down the wings, cross, try bicycle kicks and slot it into the bottom corner, but defenders still CONSTANTLY stand still, run the other way, react laughably late, don't cover each other and dawdle on the ball. Oh look, the striker has dispossessed the last defender for the third time this match! Dearie me, when will the little scamp learn?!

I'm happy for Miles and his award and glad we've got a stickied thread to inform us. How about we also get a stickied thread saying "We can't fix defending, sorry" or "Here, have some moody player one-on-ones and ridiculous agent fees to hide the fact balls played down the centre STILL dissect central defensive pairings".

Äktsjon Männ
04-03-2011, 15:11
They do fix some of this stuff from time to time. Then they reintroduce it in the next game and the cycle starts all over. Seriously, I do not understand why the match engine has to see such drastic changes from version to version, changes that often make the thing much worse. 9.3.0 was a very good match engine. The only tweaks it needed were to do with full back positioning, effectiveness of dribbling and tackling. 10.0 was a complete mess. 10.3 was much better again, 11.0 on the other hand... It's quite baffling why it goes like this.

milnerpoint
04-03-2011, 15:14
Mate, seriously. We're not talking about little things or rough edges, we're talking about glaring fundamental errors that seem to repeat themselves in every version. They are things that should be picked up by anyone playing the game for five minutes, let alone those who test the game. I've paid my money for the product, why do I need to then start logging examples of obvious game flaws, only to be told "it's a known issue and under review" and have it appear in FM12.

It is, forgive my French, an absolutely f*cking disgraceful match engine. Sure it looks pretty when attackers stream down the wings, cross, try bicycle kicks and slot it into the bottom corner, but defenders still CONSTANTLY stand still, run the other way, react laughably late, don't cover each other and dawdle on the ball. Oh look, the striker has dispossessed the last defender for the third time this match! Dearie me, when will the little scamp learn?!

I'm happy for Miles and his award and glad we've got a stickied thread to inform us. How about we also get a stickied thread saying "We can't fix defending, sorry" or "Here, have some moody player one-on-ones and ridiculous agent fees to hide the fact balls played down the centre STILL dissect central defensive pairings".

we all have our own opinions on the ME and every aspect of this game, i personally do not see the issues like you are describing and if i do they dont bother me half as much, if you do feel as strongly as your post suggests about this then why not get involved, as i say this game is a constant work in progress and as such us as the community have the opportunity to get involved in improving this game, its up to each individual how involved they get, no one expects you too, but it only takes minutes to save a match, upload a PKM and make an informed thread for SI to look at, which will do a lot more help than this thread has.
I would disagree its disgraceful, it works very well, they have stated and i did above that they are looking at improving defensive situations and hopefully when the third patch comes out we will see an improvement.
Like i say SI are new to a 3d ME, its only 2/3 years old, people at EA sports and others have been working on it for more than 10 years, so they are bound to be behind. At the end of the day you dont have to use it if you dont like the animations, the 2d option or commentry only option are still there for those not too keen on the 3d version.

Äktsjon Männ
04-03-2011, 15:20
It doesn't matter whether you watch it in 2D or 3D ffs. It's the same engine. Animations aren't the problem, it's fundamentals. I've never used 3D and pretty much never intend to, doesn't make me ignore the flaws. If anything it magnifies them because you can't dismiss a stupid looking event as a shoddy animation.

milnerpoint
04-03-2011, 15:50
you can always use commentary only until the advance the 3d ME more.

studley1984
04-03-2011, 16:18
the fact balls played down the centre STILL dissect central defensive pairings".

I'm pretty sure thats your tactics...

On a more serious note I would say that although the graphical representation of the match engine perhaps needs a little irnoning out, the majority of FM players accept that it will never look or perform like Fifa or PES and look past little imperfections such as this.

Personally I use the old 2D view which I find more enjoyable to watch (and errors like those you mention are less obvious) than the 3D, which imo was only added as other management games had it and as a gimmick to entice casual gamers. Lets face it, any reasonably knowledgeable gamer/football fan would much rather play FM watching dots run round than any of the other options out there.


It doesn't matter whether you watch it in 2D or 3D ffs. It's the same engine. Animations aren't the problem, it's fundamentals. I've never used 3D and pretty much never intend to, doesn't make me ignore the flaws. If anything it magnifies them because you can't dismiss a stupid looking event as a shoddy animation.

Whether you're watching 2D or 3D its still an animation. Therefore, it's just as possible that this is just a poor representation of what the ME processes as being a fault with the ME.

Äktsjon Männ
04-03-2011, 16:33
you can always use commentary only until the advance the 3d ME more.

Why? Will it make the fundamental errors go away? Does it hide the fact that these kind of flaws in the ME get fixed and reintroduced from one version to another?

There is no 3D ME btw. FM match engine is in fact the same base engine that was used in CM4. 2D and 3D is just the visual representation of it. When the flaws mentioned in earlier posts happen it's got nothing to do with animations or graphics.


Whether you're watching 2D or 3D its still an animation. Therefore, it's just as possible that this is just a poor representation of what the ME processes as being a fault with the ME.

When nonsensical events that don't happen in one version of the same engine suddenly appear to happen in the next one I can assume that it's the ME not functioning properly. Either way, it hardly matters because if it can't translate a simple event like a defender chasing for a loose ball into a simple believable 2D sequence after 9 years of development then I'd say it's time to start from scratch really.

milnerpoint
04-03-2011, 16:48
Why? Will it make the fundamental errors go away? Does it hide the fact that these kind of flaws in the ME get fixed and reintroduced from one version to another?

There is no 3D ME btw. FM match engine is in fact the same base engine that was used in CM4. 2D and 3D is just the visual representation of it. When the flaws mentioned in earlier posts happen it's got nothing to do with animations or graphics.



When nonsensical events that don't happen in one version of the same engine suddenly appear to happen in the next one I can assume that it's the ME not functioning properly. Either way, it hardly matters because if it can't translate a simple event like a defender chasing for a loose ball into a simple believable 2D sequence after 9 years of development then I'd say it's time to start from scratch really.

if you dont like watching the ME then commentary only is the best option for you thats all im saying.
Assumption is the mother of all F**k ups as they say, again like i have said the ME has its faults but they constantly work on it and they constantly improve it which to me is the most important thing.

studley1984
04-03-2011, 16:55
if you dont like watching the ME then commentary only is the best option for you thats all im saying.
Assumption is the mother of all F**k ups as they say, again like i have said the ME has its faults but they constantly work on it and they constantly improve it which to me is the most important thing.

Couldn't agree more. For all the imperfections with the game there are many possitive things which make the game the best football mangement game around, which is why we all play it - but we have to accept that it's never going to be perfect in every aspect.

milnerpoint
04-03-2011, 16:59
it will never ever mirror real life to the extent we would all like, its just impossible to programme enough animations to cope with every eventuality.

Äktsjon Männ
04-03-2011, 17:08
if you dont like watching the ME then commentary only is the best option for you thats all im saying.
Assumption is the mother of all F**k ups as they say, again like i have said the ME has its faults but they constantly work on it and they constantly improve it which to me is the most important thing.

I like to watch the ME. Without it I can't play the game. Doesn't mean I enjoy seeing r*tarded things happen that I'm sure have already been fixed in some earlier version only to pop up again in another one. I certainly don't see the improvement where abovementioned flaws are concerned. These are things that get fixed and then messed up again from one version to another so they can fix it again for the 28th time. That's not progress, it's going round in circles.

Anyway, this 'it's just the ME picking a wrong animation' excuse is a weak one. How many ways of showing a 2D dot run to a ball are there that it can accidentally choose the one where it gets stuck in mud to let the other one catch up? Fundamentals, guys. Get these right and then work on the fluff i.e 3D animations.

dustygator
05-03-2011, 04:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZiBayD8EA4

Yup it's definitely my tactics. Oh and for what it's worth, Demichelis has like 14/15 Acc/Pace and notice how he suddenly speeds up as soon as Valdez is past him.

Andy20
05-03-2011, 04:42
That kind of stuff happens way too much dustygator, I hardly ever see that on the FM 2010 match engine, I have played till 2023 on Fm 2010 so far and I feel like the ME is better on that than on FM 2011.

Dr. Cheesesteak
05-03-2011, 07:14
wow, didn't know this was such a big topic! glad I'm not the only one, then!

Svenc
05-03-2011, 11:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZiBayD8EA4

Yup it's definitely my tactics. Oh and for what it's worth, Demichelis has like 14/15 Acc/Pace and notice how he suddenly speeds up as soon as Valdez is past him.

More like the bunch of polygons representing Demichelis not noticing Valdez speeding up right behind him because the bunch of polygons meant to represent Demichelis, just as Demichels, don't have eyes on the back of their head. It's a goofy error, and it looks goofy in this sequence, sure, but it happens in the real sports in similar ways.

I think people are pretty rough on FM. Whereas FIFA and PES play out like a "Match of the day"-style representation, with tons of action crammed into a mere minutes at ever frantic pace, the fact that contrary to FIFA or PES you can passively sit down and watch an entire match of Football Manager unfold without going berzerk is a testament to the engine itself. And at "full" 90 minutes it doesn't have the benefit of omitting anything. Even with the glitches, there is nothing quite like it because it is the only current football game engine NOT acting like a glorified version of the real sports, in which every move at Bolton looks like something from Camp Nou because it has to: Somehow, in these few minutes of FIFA and PES play, goals need to still happen like in the real 90 minutes sports.


edit: For what it's worth, if anything, I'm managing on a lower level and I've yet to see an error like this myself, let alone frequent errors like this. I've seen my best midfielder hitting his team-mate with his pass right in front of him, the ball bouncing off said team mate's back and effectively initiating the counter attack that would cost me the chance of promotion, sure. I was mad, yes. But somewhere there has got to be some leeway for error - and FM's engine just isn't allowed to omit it.

dustygator
05-03-2011, 14:28
More like the bunch of polygons representing Demichelis not noticing Valdez speeding up right behind him because the bunch of polygons meant to represent Demichelis, just as Demichels, don't have eyes on the back of their head. It's a goofy error, and it looks goofy in this sequence, sure, but it happens in the real sports in similar ways.


Because Demichelis can't turn his head around because he broke his neck? Football players are almost always scanning around them to see where opposing players are. If this ever happened in real-life, where a top-division defender watches a through ball go by him in his own half in the 87th minute of a tie game and walks to it, he would probably have his house and car firebombed.

Rega
05-03-2011, 14:54
My favourite is the long ball hoofed over the top which my defender chases and jumps to head (possibly back to the keeper but who knows) but misses completely and stands still, probably in shock at his own ineptitude.

The forward, seizing on my defender's sudden desire to question his future as a professional footballer, nips in with a cheery "Thanks mate" and slots the ball past the keeper.

jambo14
05-03-2011, 15:17
My favourite is the long ball hoofed over the top which my defender chases and jumps to head (possibly back to the keeper but who knows) but misses completely and stands still, probably in shock at his own ineptitude.

The forward, seizing on my defender's sudden desire to question his future as a professional footballer, nips in with a cheery "Thanks mate" and slots the ball past the keeper.

that is one of my fav bugs of all time but i bet couger will come on say i know more than anybody dont u think its ur tactics thats wrong thats y they jump and miss the ball nothing to do with the fact th ematch engine is s**t ha

CaMeL_UK
05-03-2011, 16:39
Match engine is in its worst state for 3 years in my opinion. The only way to defend is to keep the ball in the opponents half and not let them have the ball. The midfield will close down and win the ball back before it gets to the dodgy defence and thats why still so many tactics go for 2-3 ball winning midfielders who run around all day, to cover the defense.

You may as well not have a defense, I reckon you would conceed the same amount of goals, the real killer for me was I had 2 defenders both with pace/acc over 15 and a simple disecting through ball between them and who should run through both? John Parkin who has about 10 pace.

Dont even get me started on squad morale, apparently its all my fault, bad morale is a disease.

McBride
05-03-2011, 19:02
I say this a lot but it seems to me that people want the players in the game to act like ROBOTS that never make ANY mistakes or NEVER have a lapses in judgement. In this game, YOU ARE NOT PLAYING THE PLAYERS. You are giving them instructions that they do not always follow. I'm not saying there aren't mistakes in the match engine but every bad pass or missed tackle or foolish mistake on the part of the players is more in line with reality than FIFA and PES.