Does PA change?

I have Stancu in my Liverpool save.I'm in my third season now but I signed him on a free on my second season.I checked his PA and it was 167.I loaned him out to Watford(Who are back in the Prem) and he have a brilliant season where he scored 20 goals in 25 app.

When I got him back I checked his PA and it is now 177.

Does a players PA go up when they have a good season?

I have Stancu in my Liverpool save.I'm in my third season now but I signed him on a free on my second season.I checked his PA and it was 167.I loaned him out to Watford(Who are back in the Prem) and he have a brilliant season where he scored 20 goals in 25 app.

When I got him back I checked his PA and it is now 177.

Does a players PA go up when they have a good season?

I'm pretty sure that Potential Ability doesn't change, only Current Ability. Can't explain your mysterious happenings...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does a players PA go up when they have a good season? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No- PA cannot go up as it is set at the start of each new game

Maybe whichever program you are using to check PA is reading it differently

PA can only go DOWN, after a career threatening injury

I've seen PA go down in my 08 game.

I wrote about it in this thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scotty Walds:

PA can only go DOWN, after a career threatening injury </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely it should be able to increase as well, taking into account factors e.g. form etc. I know these have an effect on CA and the possibility of reaching the maximum set PA but one example would be Owen Hargreaves, his CA and PA would have increased dramatically after his performances at the last World Cup, compared to his ability before hand.

Surely both CA and PA should have the ability to fluxuate or in honesty almost every top flight player should have the ability to attain a CA/PA of 200.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scotty Walds:

PA can only go DOWN, after a career threatening injury </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely it should be able to increase as well, taking into account factors e.g. form etc. I know these have an effect on CA and the possibility of reaching the maximum set PA but one example would be Owen Hargreaves, his CA and PA would have increased dramatically after his performances at the last World Cup, compared to his ability before hand.

Surely both CA and PA should have the ability to fluxuate or in honesty almost every top flight player should have the ability to attain a CA/PA of 200. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Nomis i completely disagree with this a players potential ability is the best a player can ever be (if everything goes right for him) so thats not going to go up on form at all, infact its never going to go up no matter what. What will change is his current ability but imho this doesn't change with form either maybe after a long period of good form it will increase but a player being on a good run isn't necessarilly because he's become a better player. Lots of things contribute to a players form like morale, fitness and just general luck. Another thing which may change is what people think of the potential of said player say with Hargreaves after the World Cup people may have realised his potential but he didn't just get the potential from no where. I especially disagree with the last bit a 190-200 player is very rare your not telling me that most players in the top flight have the ability to be as good as Kaka or Cristiano Ronaldo.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

but one example would be Owen Hargreaves, his CA and PA would have increased dramatically after his performances at the last World Cup, compared to his ability before hand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, Hargreaves always had the potential. That didn't go up after the world cup but remained the same. His current ability did increase though meaning he was getting closer to fulfilling his potential.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by butts:

Sorry Nomis i completely disagree with this a players potential ability is the best a player can ever be (if everything goes right for him). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's the point, and reason why every player must have a high PA because it is always possible.

Consoder Thierry Henry on leaving Juventus and then again on leaving Arsenal. He wouldn't have had a 190 PA and probably not even a 180 PA when he left Juve but he did have the ability to achieve it, as was shown in his Arsenal days.

Perhaps my suggestion of 200 is a bit extreme, but Crisitiano Ronaldo 4-5 years ago with a PA nearly 200 and you would have laughed at me. Do you think he would have achieved it if he had stayed at Sporting Lisbon? I don't think so, but 5 years ago the potential was there, but it wasn't necessarily available for all to see.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't think so, but 5 years ago the potential was there, but it wasn't necessarily available for all to see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's my point really that potential was there when he was very very young and he is never going to be better than that. However if everything hadn't gone right for him (like staying at lisbon) his CA wouldn't have gone near his PA but he would still have the same potential he just wouldn't ever achieve it.

Butts

But in the context of a game there was no way of knowing that the potential was there to achieve a PA of 200, so if the game was true to life then almost every player would have the ability to achieve a 200 PA.

Looking at players like Walcott etc I wouldn't give them a 180-190 PA at the moment but if we look at examples like Henry and Ronaldo, it is entirely conceivable that they may one day be able to achieve a 200. That is why, whilst they may never make 200 they do essentially have the ability to achieve a 200 PA regardless of what anyone thinks.

What i'm saying is, far more players have the ability to achieve PA 200 than the game accounts for. Yes Ronaldo, Messi etc should have a very high PA but 5 years ago they didn't. Retrospectively then they should have had a 200 PA 5 years ago even when they weren't world famous, and in the context of this discussion you would have argued agaisnt them having a 200 PA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

but one example would be Owen Hargreaves, his CA and PA would have increased dramatically after his performances at the last World Cup, compared to his ability before hand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, Hargreaves always had the potential. That didn't go up after the world cup but remained the same. His current ability did increase though meaning he was getting closer to fulfilling his potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but I completely disagree. From a fans and researchers point of view nobody could argue that Owen Hargreaves was really as good as he was before that World Cup.

They thought he was good but honestly in the minds of a lot of people his CA after that world cup exceeded his PA before it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They thought he was good but honestly in the minds of a lot of people his CA after that world cup exceeded his PA before it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this still says what i believe is the problem here that it's all what people think not what people know. For your comments to me i've got to admit i do agree with your really as in the game people are just saying what they think as a PA as they don't actually know it. But i think me and you are alright because as far as i can tell from your posts you wouldn't use genie scout or whatever and we won't know what PA is in the game we will just know peoples opinions of it and that is all we would have IRL.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

but one example would be Owen Hargreaves, his CA and PA would have increased dramatically after his performances at the last World Cup, compared to his ability before hand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, Hargreaves always had the potential. That didn't go up after the world cup but remained the same. His current ability did increase though meaning he was getting closer to fulfilling his potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On this basis everyone should have a PA of 200 then. Unless you have a crystal ball of course.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by butts:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They thought he was good but honestly in the minds of a lot of people his CA after that world cup exceeded his PA before it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this still says what i believe is the problem here that it's all what people think not what people know. For your comments to me i've got to admit i do agree with your really as in the game people are just saying what they think as a PA as they don't actually know it. But i think me and you are alright because as far as i can tell from your posts you wouldn't use genie scout or whatever and we won't know what PA is in the game we will just know peoples opinions of it and that is all we would have IRL. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right PA doesn't bother me, but I would just like to think that in game if I buy an 18 year old left back (for Bayern Munich with top training facilities etc) who looks half decent, he shouldn't be limited in his development by a PA.

Put it this way, if Kevin Nolan is playing very well at Bolton and in game has a CA of 160 and a PA 160, but then moves to Liverpool or Manchester United it is totally unrealistic to think that he couldn't improve even further because he's hit his limit.

I think i maybe have a solution where PA is set to what the researcher believes but if they are at a smaller club there CA stops rising before they reach their PA and then if they move to a big club(Bayern or Man u etc) then it will start rising again until they reach their PA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by butts:

I think i maybe have a solution where PA is set to what the researcher believes but if they are at a smaller club there CA stops rising before they reach their PA and then if they move to a big club(Bayern or Man u etc) then it will start rising again until they reach their PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would seem sensible, implementing parameters depending on the level of

club/league you're playing for/in.

Reaching a higher scale PA whilst in the Championship or lower level European league seems stupid.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kccircle:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

but one example would be Owen Hargreaves, his CA and PA would have increased dramatically after his performances at the last World Cup, compared to his ability before hand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, Hargreaves always had the potential. That didn't go up after the world cup but remained the same. His current ability did increase though meaning he was getting closer to fulfilling his potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On this basis everyone should have a PA of 200 then. Unless you have a crystal ball of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the last thing I'll say on this matter as I'm not going to have the whole PA argument again, I've had it too many times.

For all the people saying that players like Henry or Ronaldo didn't have the same PA when they were playing for previous clubs, you're wrong. These players always had the potential to be excellent, it was their current ability that was different when at their previous clubs.

In terms of FM their PA will have changed, but that's just because the researchers are only human and it's hard sometimes to accurately predict a players PA. It's governed by many things but by the time someone reaches about 15-16 their potential is pretty much set. This potential is the best they could ever be if everything went perfect for them. It's current ability that changes as a players carrer progresses.

Let me put it another way. If 20 16 year old players were all given the exact same facilities, training and first team opportunities over 5 years these 20 players would not all turn out exactly the same. a couple would probably excel and stand out above the rest and some would fall behind. The rest would be at many different levels of abiltiy in between. The reason that they would not all turn out the same is because they all had different potentials. Some had the potential to go that extra bit and become very good players, others only had a limited potential and no matter how hard they trained were not going to get any better.

I personally think that in the game more players should have a higher PA but the development model should be more fluid and affected by more factors. This means it's less likely a player will always reach their PA and that different players will reach their PA's at different points in their careers.

However the PA should never increase, only decrease in extreme circumstances such as very bad injuries or 'burn-out'.

Oh God, not the dreaded PA debate again.

*runs from thread*

I think people are reading too much into my points re Henry and Ronaldo. Of course the researchers are only human and it would be impossible to accurately predict the future. This is my point and the reason why players hould have a far higher PA than they currently have, as essentially potential is always there when applied to top flight footballers.

Factors applying to PA should include training facilities, club, league, playing staff and coaches.

Again, I don't understand how a player playing for Bolton could have a CA and PA which are the same and then move to Barcelona or Man Utd and not progress further.

The ability to progress must be there but only when certain boxes are ticked e.g. increase in potential to progress when new training facilities are acquired.

I don't have a crystal ball but players do have the ability to progress beyond what we initally thought they were capable of, which is why a set PA seems so ridiculous.

Peter Crouch is perhaps an excellent example because whilst at Villa his PA would have been low. Now of course researchers cannot predict the future and as such must make the best judgement, but the ability for him to progress to a level in which a CL team were interested in him happened IRL and so should be possible in game as well.

Nomis: The trouble with that though is that basically a top team could just buy anyone and improve them, which is not the case in real life.

There has to be some sort of cap to stop the best teams just automatically developing the best players by virtue of their facilities and coaches. The current PA system is the best way of doing this imo and through all the PA debates I'm yet to see a viable alternative put forward that would be both realistic and not fall flat for one reason or another.

My in depth views on the matter can be found here if you're interested.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

I think people are reading too much into my points re Henry and Ronaldo. Of course the researchers are only human and it would be impossible to accurately predict the future. This is my point and the reason why players hould have a far higher PA than they currently have, as essentially potential is always there when applied to top flight footballers.

Factors applying to PA should include training facilities, club, league, playing staff and coaches.

Again, I don't understand how a player playing for Bolton could have a CA and PA which are the same and then move to Barcelona or Man Utd and not progress further.

The ability to progress must be there but only when certain boxes are ticked e.g. increase in potential to progress when new training facilities are acquired.

I don't have a crystal ball but players do have the ability to progress beyond what we initally thought they were capable of, which is why a set PA seems so ridiculous.

Peter Crouch is perhaps an excellent example because whilst at Villa his PA would have been low. Now of course researchers cannot predict the future and as such must make the best judgement, but the ability for him to progress to a level in which a CL team were interested in him happened IRL and so should be possible in game as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry mate, but what you're saying is wrong. Player's potential ability will always be set in stone.

Let's look at your Peter Crouch example first. While at Villa his CA will have been low, but he's always had the potential to reach the level he has done. His potential hasn't risen just because he's joined Liverpool and got in the England squad. In terms of the game Crouch's PA probably was quite low on past versions and probably has been bumped up significantly in recent seasons but that is a research 'error' and nothing to do with Crouch finding some more potential.

PA shouldn't have anything to do with training facilities, club, staff or anything else, it's just something that's there. It's a cap that exists in real life just as it does in the game. Obviously, just like in real life you're not supposed to be able to see potential, only make a guess at it.

If which club you played for and their facilities played a part in how good you could become then it wouldn't matter which young players Manchester United or Barcelona chose from their academy because they would all become world beaters. Unfortunately everyone can see this just isn't the case, otherwise Terry Cooke wouldn't be plying his trade in the MLS.

Similarly, if it was coded into the game this way, not only would it be highly unrealistic, but as a top team it wouldn't matter what players your bought. If everybody had a PA of 200 as you earlier suggested why would it matter if you signed Messi or Michael Kightly? Both would have the potential to be as good as each other. It wouldn't make sense, and surely even non-believers in PA can see it's utterly ridiculous.

I'm not saying that there should not be a cap on PA for each individual player. What i'm saying is that a player must have the ability to progress further if he moves to a better club.

A PA of 150 for Peter crouch would surely be improved by at least 5 points by moving to high profile team in which he wa splaying with better players. I think people are taking my view as all players should have the ability to hit 200 (which despite saying it, shouldn't be the case) if properly dealt with, no that is unrealistic but it is also realisitc to say that buying a player with a PA of 130 when you are a top 4 side will not increase his PA slightly.

Of course he will not become a world class player just because he has joined a better club but he will become a better player than he could have achieved elswhere.

Perhaps the issue lies with a players ability to achieve their maximum potential when playing for a team that in reality would be unable to help them fulfil it.

I don't actually have a prolem with the current PA system and am only raising the point that limiting a players progression purely because of this may be considered unrealtistic.

Essentially...

Players PA will never go up (in terms of real-life)

Players PA may change from FM to FM (because researchers are human)

It is very difficult to accurately judge who is going a be a world star or even just a lower league journeyman when the players comes into FM at the age of 16/17...

I think I can see where you're coming from, but the point is that players potential should never change. Just because Peter Crouch joins Liverpool does not mean his potential should increase - his reputation might, and therefore his value, and he'll probably become a better player (because his CA will most likely rise to reach his potential playing in better facilities) but his potential simply shouldn't rise ever.

The only problem with the way the game deals with it at the moment in my opinion is that players too frequently reach their potential.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Of course he will not become a world class player just because he has joined a better club but he will become a better player than he could have achieved elswhere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe, but not because his potential rises, but because his current ability rises.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A PA of 150 for Peter crouch would surely be improved by at least 5 points by moving to high profile team in which he wa splaying with better players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, this is current ability, not potential. Potential ability is best described as the best a player can possibly ever be if everything goes right for him in his career. As such a player plying his trade in the lower leagues all his life will probably never reach his potential (whether this works the same way in the game I don't know). If this same player makes the move up to the Premiership he'll be more likely to reach his PA, but his PA won't rise because of the move.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

I'm not saying that there should not be a cap on PA for each individual player. What i'm saying is that a player must have the ability to progress further if he moves to a better club.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, he just has more chance of reaching his PA. His PA may have been misjudged by the researcher in the first place, however...

he crux of my point is; if a player has a PA of 160 and a CA of 160 but is playing for Sunderland, it is entirely incoceivable that his CA will not increase if he plays with better players etc.

Now of course it isn't going to go off the radar and he suddenly becomes a world class player but he will increase slightly, perhaps only 2/3 points. Does this not show tha there is a problem, not necessarily with PA but with a players ability to achieve PA when at a club that doesn't share his talents.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

he crux of my point is; if a player has a PA of 160 and a CA of 160 but is playing for Sunderland, it is entirely incoceivable that his CA will not increase if he plays with better players etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only because of misjudgement by the researcher. A player won't be able to perform more than he is capable of, will he?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

he crux of my point is; if a player has a PA of 160 and a CA of 160 but is playing for Sunderland, it is entirely incoceivable that his CA will not increase if he plays with better players etc.

Now of course it isn't going to go off the radar and he suddenly becomes a world class player but he will increase slightly, perhaps only 2/3 points. Does this not show tha there is a problem, not necessarily with PA but with a players ability to achieve PA when at a club that doesn't share his talents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sunderland's maybe a bad example you've used, but your point is a more valid one. Players should be less likely to reach their potential when playing for a lower league club (hence why I say Sunderland is a bad example - playing in the top flight I see no reason why a player wouldn't be able to reach his peak).

I think though it is a problem with the way the game deals with CA and PA rather than a problem with players having a PA (which I think we've established is essential). Players should be very unlikely to reach their PA if they are playing in a sub-standard league, with poor facilities and coaching staff. Obviously there will be exceptions to the rule - some players may still reach their potential.

Players should be more likely to reach their PA playing for Man United, but again, it shouldn't be a shoe-in.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scotty Walds:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

he crux of my point is; if a player has a PA of 160 and a CA of 160 but is playing for Sunderland, it is entirely incoceivable that his CA will not increase if he plays with better players etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only because of misjudgement by the researcher. A player won't be able to perform more than he is capable of, will he? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're missing the point in relation to the rest of my post.

Should the team and playing abilities and success not have an impact on his ability to achieve full PA? That has nothing to do with researchers, he does have a PA of 160 but IMO surely would only be able to achieve it when playing at the top of his game with players of a similar ilk.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scotty Walds:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

he crux of my point is; if a player has a PA of 160 and a CA of 160 but is playing for Sunderland, it is entirely incoceivable that his CA will not increase if he plays with better players etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only because of misjudgement by the researcher. A player won't be able to perform more than he is capable of, will he? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're missing the point in relation to the rest of my post.

Should the team and playing abilities and success not have an impact on his ability to achieve full PA? That has nothing to do with researchers, he does have a PA of 160 but IMO surely would only be able to achieve it when playing at the top of his game with players of a similar ilk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, but don't you see, it does. The PA is what a player could reach if everything which could help the player progress happens. Having better training facilities helps a player's CA progress to nearer the PA than worse training facilities, at a rubbish club like Sunderland or in a lower league.

There's a subtle difference between the PA, a cap for what a player could become should everything go his way, and what you are talking about which is, in effect, the "potential to reach his potential" - this is obviously not defined, and all of the issues you have pointed out do affect this theoretical number... with the standard of league, training facilities and tutoring etc. all affecting whether the player will reach his PA.

But, on the other hand, how do you know that a player can't reach his peak playing for a smaller club? Player development isn't a science, so we can't definitively say that a player can only reach his best playing in the Champions' League for Man Utd. I admit, it seems more likely that these conditions will help to develop players, We just can't say that this is true for every player, all of the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toon07:

But, on the other hand, how do you know that a player can't reach his peak playing for a smaller club? Player development isn't a science, so we can't definitively say that a player can only reach his best playing in the Champions' League for Man Utd. I admit, it seems more likely that these conditions will help to develop players, We just can't say that this is true for every player, all of the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But it does have a drastic impact in player progression. I admit that we can't say for certain that players won't progress because of the club they are at but take Ronaldo for instance, do you think he'd be as world reknowned or as good a player today if he was still playing in Portugal?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scotty Walds:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

he crux of my point is; if a player has a PA of 160 and a CA of 160 but is playing for Sunderland, it is entirely incoceivable that his CA will not increase if he plays with better players etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only because of misjudgement by the researcher. A player won't be able to perform more than he is capable of, will he? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're missing the point in relation to the rest of my post.

Should the team and playing abilities and success not have an impact on his ability to achieve full PA? That has nothing to do with researchers, he does have a PA of 160 but IMO surely would only be able to achieve it when playing at the top of his game with players of a similar ilk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily. Look at Kevin Phillips, was excellent when playing in a relatively good Sunderland side and is still excellent, possibly better now when playing in a lower league and probably surrounded by worse players than when he played in the Premiership.

Or the opposite, Diego Forlan. Went to Man Utd and actually became worse. Moved to Villereal (sp) who I think most people would agree are worse than Man Utd, yet he became a better player. Shearer chose Newcastle over Man Utd but it never did him any harm, Pele stayed in the Brazilian leagues for the majority of his career but was still one of the best players to ever grace a football field.

So I think if a players got potential they're likely to be good wherever they play. In many cases playing for a top club may help a player reach his potential faster but it does not dictate what that potential will be.

Realistically, PA can change yes..

But people.. this is not real life.. this is a game. Without these CA and PA system, balancing player's attributes will be a nightmare if not impossible.

This is the same case with "Preferred Moves". 18-yr old prodigy in real life may develop some moves as he ages.. but in the game, he wont develop those moves, just stats increase.

Again, dont base a video game on logic.

Perhaps the set number was a minus one??

Chopper99

Of course there are exceptions like Forlan, that's the nature of football, but the cases that prove otherwise are far outweighed by the players that progress under management guidance and introduction to superior football.

As for Phillips, he looks even better now but is playing in a less impressive league.

Club does not dictate potential but it does have significant impact on ability to reach it. Crewe for example have produced many players who had excellent potential but noone could seriously suggest that the players were ever likely to achieve that level whilst playing for Crewe.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toon07:

But, on the other hand, how do you know that a player can't reach his peak playing for a smaller club? Player development isn't a science, so we can't definitively say that a player can only reach his best playing in the Champions' League for Man Utd. I admit, it seems more likely that these conditions will help to develop players, We just can't say that this is true for every player, all of the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But it does have a drastic impact in player progression. I admit that we can't say for certain that players won't progress because of the club they are at but take Ronaldo for instance, do you think he'd be as world reknowned or as good a player today if he was still playing in Portugal? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clearly, his reputation wouldn't be as high, given he would receive less publicity, media attention etc. playing for Sporting... but that is different to ability.

Personally, no, I don't believe that players who have the potential to be world class are likely to become it in our eyes because of the opposition he is playing against. The problem with our perception of a "good player" is that we judge them by their rep, their team's rep etc. While Ronaldo may have scored as many goals for Sporting, it would have been in the Portuguese League, so we would play it down as being against lesser opposition.

Even if he didn't score as many or set as many up, he could still be as good a player, as playing in Portugal with lesser players around him, so getting less service, so his goalscoring may not have been as immense.

But the simple facts are:

1) we will never know how good he would have been playing for Sporting, as he moved to Man Utd.

2) how likely is it he would have stayed at Sporting? IMO he was always going to move to one of the "Big Three" leagues, because he was such a good player.

Take a player like Henrik Larsson, who played for Celtic, not a World Class club, but I believe he was as good as he ever could have been, but again, we will never know, as he moved to Barca when he was, basically, past his peak. (but still, noticably, didn't get better than he was at Celtic just because Barca is a bigger club)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Chopper99

Of course there are exceptions like Forlan, that's the nature of football, but the cases that prove otherwise are far outweighed by the players that progress under management guidance and introduction to superior football.

As for Phillips, he looks even better now but is playing in a less impressive league.

Club does not dictate potential but it does have significant impact on ability to reach it. Crewe for example have produced many players who had excellent potential but noone could seriously suggest that the players were ever likely to achieve that level whilst playing for Crewe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see what you're saying and I mostly agree with you. My stance is that PA should exist in the game as it is now. It shouldn't go up when a player moves to a bigger club but there should be a lot of factors that determine the rate at which a player moves towards their potential. These factors should include, but not be limited to, the quality of the club the player is at and the league they are playing in.

I don't think it's as simple as move to a better club and you improve faster, in real life it doesn't always work like this. But the development model is too linear at the moment, my ideas for how it can be improved are included in the thread I linked earlier.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scotty Walds:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

he crux of my point is; if a player has a PA of 160 and a CA of 160 but is playing for Sunderland, it is entirely incoceivable that his CA will not increase if he plays with better players etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only because of misjudgement by the researcher. A player won't be able to perform more than he is capable of, will he? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're missing the point in relation to the rest of my post.

Should the team and playing abilities and success not have an impact on his ability to achieve full PA? That has nothing to do with researchers, he does have a PA of 160 but IMO surely would only be able to achieve it when playing at the top of his game with players of a similar ilk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I'm not. Of course this has something to do with researchers, as they set the PA!

PA is the highest possible value of CA the player will reach, in a perfect world where nothing stands in his way of improving.

Anyone actually gotten a 180+ PA player from a weak club?

Like in lower league.. not serie A or premiership. I know I havent...

While it's true a player with high PA can come from everywhere, in the game it usually comes from the highest level of competition (La Liga/Serie A/Premiership etc)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Pele stayed in the Brazilian leagues for the majority of his career but was still one of the best players to ever grace a football field. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, they're rubbish the Brazilian leagues

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by coldcell:

Anyone actually gotten a 180+ PA player from a weak club?

Like in lower league.. not serie A or premiership. I know I havent...

While it's true a player with high PA can come from everywhere, in the game it usually comes from the highest level of competition (La Liga/Serie A/Premiership etc) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you've never purchased a young eastern European with high PA. Modric for example or Akinfeev. There are also a number of players in lower league Germany with high PAs, the same can be said of France and rather obviously, South America.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KK2003:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Pele stayed in the Brazilian leagues for the majority of his career but was still one of the best players to ever grace a football field. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, they're rubbish the Brazilian leagues </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said they were rubbish, the point is they're not considered as one of the 'big' world leagues. If they were the majority of the top Brazilian players wouldn't leave to play in Europe.

So please read the thread properly before you start rolling your eyes at me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KK2003:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Pele stayed in the Brazilian leagues for the majority of his career but was still one of the best players to ever grace a football field. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, they're rubbish the Brazilian leagues </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said they were rubbish, the point is they're not considered as one of the 'big' world leagues. If they were the majority of the top Brazilian players wouldn't leave to play in Europe.

So please read the thread properly before you start rolling your eyes at me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When Pele was playing the Brazilian leagues though all the top players were playing there though. The majority of the top Brazilian players DIDN'T leave to play in Europe, so it was one of the 'big' leagues.

I agree ' Cheese is a kind of meat, A tasty yellow beef, I milk it from my teat, But I try to be discreet, Oooh cheese Oooh cheese.'

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Let me put it another way. If 20 16 year old players were all given the exact same facilities, training and first team opportunities over 5 years these 20 players would not all turn out exactly the same. a couple would probably excel and stand out above the rest and some would fall behind. The rest would be at many different levels of abiltiy in between. The reason that they would not all turn out the same is because they all had different potentials. Some had the potential to go that extra bit and become very good players, others only had a limited potential and no matter how hard they trained were not going to get any better.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But this is where your argument falls down too.

If this scenario exists you wouldn't know who at aged 16 has a PA of 100 or a PA of 200. Therefore all PA should be 200? It seems fairly obvious to me. Then with training, match experience, injuries etc for each player of which they will have differing experience of should determine who achieves a PA of 100 and a PA of 200

If I had a wander down to Man Utd academy tomorrow I would see a group of x many 16 year olds. Each of them has a degree of ability for them to be there. Some will be better than others without doubt. However, at that stage how can you forsee whose ability will max out in the latter stages of their career? It's impossible. At that stage all of them have an opportunity to be the stars of tomorrow. Most will fall by the wayside but to cap someones potential at that early stage is mysterious, almost crystal ball like. In addition, even the most limited of players will succeed given determination, judgement, luck etc, something no one could forsee at an early age.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kccircle:

If this scenario exists you wouldn't know who at aged 16 has a PA of 100 or a PA of 200. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That there is precisely the downfall of your own argument though. YOU wouldn't know. The coach won't know. The guy himself won't know. But it DOES exist. What I mean is, there is physically only so good he will ever get, regardless of the quality of training etc ie a PA.

Bear in mind that the game DOES know, but it never tells you, so in the same way as you say yourself - you wouldn't know what anyone's PA is. You only know by cheating.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kccircle:

But this is where your argument falls down too.

If this scenario exists you wouldn't know who at aged 16 has a PA of 100 or a PA of 200. Therefore all PA should be 200? It seems fairly obvious to me. Then with training, match experience, injuries etc for each player of which they will have differing experience of should determine who achieves a PA of 100 and a PA of 200

If I had a wander down to Man Utd academy tomorrow I would see a group of x many 16 year olds. Each of them has a degree of ability for them to be there. Some will be better than others without doubt. However, at that stage how can you forsee whose ability will max out in the latter stages of their career? It's impossible. At that stage all of them have an opportunity to be the stars of tomorrow. Most will fall by the wayside but to cap someones potential at that early stage is mysterious, almost crystal ball like. In addition, even the most limited of players will succeed given determination, judgement, luck etc, something no one could forsee at an early age. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what you're saying is that everyone and anyone has the ability to become world class? I completely disagree, everyone has a limit to how good they can be at something and these limits vary from person to person. That's potential.

I agree that if you look at a group of 16 year olds it's sometimes difficult to tell which ones will become world class. But that's exactly how it is in the game. PA is hidden, so if you don't cheat and use external programmes or the editor you'll have no way of accurately knowing which players will turn out world class and which will be limited by their own lack of potential. All you have to go on is the opinion of your scouts/coaches, their attributes at the current time and their performances. This seems pretty relistic to me.

So what I'm saying is if you don't want to know which players will go onto be world class, or which will be limited by a low potential, then don't cheat and look at a players PA.