Player Tutoring - a little bit hit and a lot more miss?

Anyone else finding the tutoring a bit hit and miss?

Playing game on 11.2.1, in first season (just testing some things in preparation for 11.3) and I tried to get Fernando Torres to tutor Danny Pacheco and Steven Gerrard to tutor JonJo Shelvey.

Shelvey responded saying he didn't see the point, so I explained how I thought it would be really beneficial and he said ok, I'll give it a go. Going on past experience, this is usually a prelude to him eventually not really getting anything out of the coaching and leading to 2 unhappy players in my squad.

Pacheco responded saying he didn't see the point and when I explained the benefits I thought it would bring he flatly refused to even try!

I mean, come on. This is ridiculous. How many youngsters are going to refuse/not see the point in tutoring from Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres in real life? Very few if any I think. I could understand it if I was offering them tutoring from someone in a completely different position or someone who was not an established, respected pro at the club.

It's annoying as some of these players without tutoring are useless for the rest of the game and might as well be sold. I think personality differences can come into this but if these young players had perfect personalities then I wouldn't need to tutor them in the first place.

I thought tutoring (potentially to varying degrees) benefit -

1. Personality (hidden) stats + Determination

2. general stats boost related to tutor's strengths

3. PPMs

My gripe is not with the tutoring process itself or the outcome, it's the amount (i.e. too many) of youngsters who don't seem to feel it would benefit them or who flatly refuse to try it which I think is unrealistic in real life and inhibiting to progressing young players in the game.

The only reason I can see for this is that the advice to be tutored is coming from me (a manager in 1st season of game - albeit with status set to former international footballer) - other than that it just makes no sense and makes a complete mockery of developing your own players.

What is anyone else's experience in tutoring? All constructive discussion welcomed and I am grateful for any input received.

Anyone any ideas as to why Pacheco and Shelvey would not want to be tutored by Torres and Gerrard respectively? Anyone else had problems with this?

i think personalities make a big difference, if their personalities dont mix then they wont want to be tutored by the person. It also depends on what kind of players they are, is Shelvey the next Gerrard, is he a similar kind of player expected to do the same things on the park? Same goees for Pacheco, is he in the same mould of Torres?

One thing i would add, if a player is good enough he will progress without tutoring, just because they say no does not mean they will not progress, maybe not as quick but it definately wont stop them being good players in the long run.

There is no reason why any youngster would refuse to be tutored by a legend of that club (does Torres still count?) - unless, of course, that player has the attitude of Balotelli or worse (!).

Personality clashes my arse - the whole point of tutoring is to fix bad personalities. It should only be a real issue if they are so opposed to each other, and one or both sides lack professionalism, they end up fighting. I'd imagine this isn't the case for Shelvey nor Pacheco, who both have reasonable personalities, as do Gerrard and Torres.

I personally think it's a bug - players are too fussy and prima-donnas.

I've not had this problem, In my last Liverpool Save in Season one I got Pacheco to learn from Torres, Season 2 from Gerrard and Season 3 W. Sneijder (I got him cheap)

In season 4 Pacheco was my best player.

And in my saves Shelvey always jumps at the chance to learn from gerrard!

There is no reason why any youngster would refuse to be tutored by a legend of that club (does Torres still count?) - unless, of course, that player has the attitude of Balotelli or worse (!).

Personality clashes my arse - the whole point of tutoring is to fix bad personalities. It should only be a real issue if they are so opposed to each other, and one or both sides lack professionalism, they end up fighting. I'd imagine this isn't the case for Shelvey nor Pacheco, who both have reasonable personalities, as do Gerrard and Torres.

I personally think it's a bug - players are too fussy and prima-donnas.

of course there could be a reason, what would be the point in torres tutoring someone who could be a deep lying forward or target man, he wouldnt have enough experience at that role to be much help, he could help with finishing training but that would be a day to day thing and not specifically one to one training. same goes for Gerrard, he is seen as a more attack minded midfielder, what use would he be to a deep lying, ball winning midfielder? what he could pass on is experience in the game but again that wouldnt come under one to one training more day to day training.

Its not about fixing bad personalities, its about two people not being of a similar mould, a very determind person will not get along with a laid back person in terms of tutoring the same goes for the various other personalities that dont mix within the game. Its not just a case of clicking the button and expecting things to fall into place, you have to look at tutoring carefully, will the players mix, will it actually help, will it affect either players performances, if your not sure on any of them you should hold off from asking them.

I think its a case of the player not being impressed by your judgement. If the player has a bad relationship with you, he'll be less inclined to be positive to your advice.

Cheers for the replies, much appreciated.

@milnerpoint - I could see at a stretch that Pacheco (probably a more creative possibly slightly deeper positioned striker than Torres) may not get as much benefit from being tutored by Torres in terms of playing stats but I don't see how how that cant stop him benefiting personality wise and perhaps with some mental stats. Perhaps in this case only stats crucial for the kind of striker Torres is and the kind of striker Pacheco is wouldn't see as big a jump as they would for players who play in the same position but that doesn't mean they cant benefit in other areas like personality and mental stats. It makes no sense to me that Pacheco would not want to learn from Torres in real life.

As for Shelvey, I would have thought he is well matched to Gerrard in terms of position and type of player he can become in many respects. In previous versions of FM11 Shelvey has jumped at the chance. This time on 11.2.1 (first time I tried it on this version) and he was not really interested.

Looking through some other posts on tutoring others have offered different ideas on how it should work. Sure, it's a tricky one but I just cannot understand that youngsters would not benefit from (nor would they turn down the opportunity to) learn from people like Gerrard and Torres. I just cant buy into that.

of course there could be a reason, what would be the point in torres tutoring someone who could be a deep lying forward or target man, he wouldnt have enough experience at that role to be much help, he could help with finishing training but that would be a day to day thing and not specifically one to one training. same goes for Gerrard, he is seen as a more attack minded midfielder, what use would he be to a deep lying, ball winning midfielder? what he could pass on is experience in the game but again that wouldnt come under one to one training more day to day training.

Its not about fixing bad personalities, its about two people not being of a similar mould, a very determind person will not get along with a laid back person in terms of tutoring the same goes for the various other personalities that dont mix within the game. Its not just a case of clicking the button and expecting things to fall into place, you have to look at tutoring carefully, will the players mix, will it actually help, will it affect either players performances, if your not sure on any of them you should hold off from asking them.

The whole point of tutoring is that you want two different players to be modified in some way. They aren't going to be a perfect fit - if they were, why would you tutor him?

If you ask Shelvey to learn from Gerrard, it means you want Gerrard to rub off on Shelvey. If Shelvey doesn't want that then he is going against his manager, which is silly because Shelvey doesn't have a Balotelli-like attitude.

Any central midfielder at Liverpool will want to learn from Gerrard, even though he isn't a proper central midfielder himself. Any attacking player would like to learn from Gerrard too. I don't really see why Shelvey would refuse.

I think its a case of the player not being impressed by your judgement. If the player has a bad relationship with you, he'll be less inclined to be positive to your advice.

Thanks for the reply Jiggy but in this case I wonder if it is because I am a month or so into a new game and not had a chance to build up an in game reputation bar starting as an ex international player or that this part of tutoring is indeed broken.

Cheers for the replies, much appreciated.

@milnerpoint - I could see at a stretch that Pacheco (probably a more creative possibly slightly deeper positioned striker than Torres) may not get as much benefit from being tutored by Torres in terms of playing stats but I don't see how how that cant stop him benefiting personality wise and perhaps with some mental stats. Perhaps in this case only stats crucial for the kind of striker Torres is and the kind of striker Pacheco is wouldn't see as big a jump as they would for players who play in the same position but that doesn't mean they cant benefit in other areas like personality and mental stats. It makes no sense to me that Pacheco would not want to learn from Torres in real life.

As for Shelvey, I would have thought he is well matched to Gerrard in terms of position and type of player he can become in many respects. In previous versions of FM11 Shelvey has jumped at the chance. This time on 11.2.1 (first time I tried it on this version) and he was not really interested.

Looking through some other posts on tutoring others have offered different ideas on how it should work. Sure, it's a tricky one but I just cannot understand that youngsters would not benefit from (nor would they turn down the opportunity to) learn from people like Gerrard and Torres. I just cant buy into that.

as i say it could be a personality clash that might not work, i havent really checked up on the liverpool players so i could be very wrong but perhaps they just dont get along well enough for Pacheco to want to spend so much time with Torres, if in the game their personalities dont mix they wont get along its just a simple algirythm within the game. With Gerrard and Shelvey again i dont really know enough about Shelvey to say if he would benefit or not, but others have said they are willing so perhaps it is to do with the way you have gone about it or the timing of when you have asked. Do you have other players in your squad that could tutor these players?

The whole point of tutoring is that you want two different players to be modified in some way. They aren't going to be a perfect fit - if they were, why would you tutor him?

If you ask Shelvey to learn from Gerrard, it means you want Gerrard to rub off on Shelvey. If Shelvey doesn't want that then he is going against his manager, which is silly because Shelvey doesn't have a Balotelli-like attitude.

Any central midfielder at Liverpool will want to learn from Gerrard, even though he isn't a proper central midfielder himself. Any attacking player would like to learn from Gerrard too. I don't really see why Shelvey would refuse.

Again i would disagree, what would a young defensive midfielder learn from an attacking midfielder? It wouldnt really benfit their game at all except for one or two stats, not something that would encourage them to be tutored by someone. Just because someone plays centre mid does not mean they can train every kind of central midfielder in a usefull mannor, not everyone is going to be in the same mould as Gerrard.

A perfect fit is actually as it sounds perfect in this situation, two player very similar one with masses of experience and one with none, so it makes very good sense to get them to work together, picking dissimilar players in this situation can do more damage than good.

as i say it could be a personality clash that might not work, i havent really checked up on the liverpool players so i could be very wrong but perhaps they just dont get along well enough for Pacheco to want to spend so much time with Torres, if in the game their personalities dont mix they wont get along its just a simple algirythm within the game. With Gerrard and Shelvey again i dont really know enough about Shelvey to say if he would benefit or not, but others have said they are willing so perhaps it is to do with the way you have gone about it or the timing of when you have asked. Do you have other players in your squad that could tutor these players?

Your input is greatly appreciated milnerpoint, I would see Shelvey as an attacking MC, like Gerrard, a reasonably similar player. As to timing or the way I went about it, not sure of the effect on timing other than I was only a month or so into a new game on 11.2.1 and not had a chance to build up an in game reputation bar starting as an ex international player. Perhaps I hadn't been at the club long enough. On a previous version of FM11 Shelvey jumped at the chance to be tutored by Stevie Gerrard (11.2 I think but may have been a patched version of 11.1).

seeing your location are you a supporter of one half of the "new firm"?

Thanks for the reply Jiggy but in this case I wonder if it is because I am a month or so into a new game and not had a chance to build up an in game reputation bar starting as an ex international player.

that would make sense, the player may not think enough of you yet to follow your advice.

Your input is greatly appreciated milnerpoint, I would see Shelvey as an attacking MC, like Gerrard, a reasonably similar player. As to timing or the way I went about it, not sure of the effect on timing other than I was only a month or so into a new game on 11.2.1 and not had a chance to build up an in game reputation bar starting as an ex international player. Perhaps I hadn't been at the club long enough. On a previous version of FM11 Shelvey jumped at the chance to be tutored by Stevie Gerrard (11.2 I think but may have been a patched version of 11.1).

seeing your location are you a supporter of one half of the "new firm"?

Yeah that could be the sole reason for it, a new manager making big changes within a short space of time might not go down so well, especially with young players who may think you dont know enough about them yet.

Im a Dandy don through and through!!! none of this dundee united nonsense!! hahahaha

Again i would disagree, what would a young defensive midfielder learn from an attacking midfielder? It wouldnt really benfit their game at all except for one or two stats, not something that would encourage them to be tutored by someone. Just because someone plays centre mid does not mean they can train every kind of central midfielder in a usefull mannor, not everyone is going to be in the same mould as Gerrard.

A perfect fit is actually as it sounds perfect in this situation, two player very similar one with masses of experience and one with none, so it makes very good sense to get them to work together, picking dissimilar players in this situation can do more damage than good.

I suspect if you spoke to Liverpool fans you would be hard pressed to find many that see either Shelvey or Gerrard as anything other than attacking midfielders. Whether Shelvey would turn out in the same Gerrard mould is not known at this juncture but he is a good prospect and was bought to eventually replace Gerrard I believe. You make some good points though milnerpoint and your input is appreciated.

Yeah that could be the sole reason for it, a new manager making big changes within a short space of time might not go down so well, especially with young players who may think you dont know enough about them yet.

Im a Dandy don through and through!!! none of this dundee united nonsense!! hahahaha

hehehe Although I love Liverpool, I also love United having been born in Dundee longer ago than I care to remember!

hehehe Although I love Liverpool, I also love United having been born in Dundee longer ago than I care to remember!

oooooh a dundonian, not sure i should be given you advice!!!

do you make it up to Tanadice much?

I suspect if you spoke to Liverpool fans you would be hard pressed to find many that see either Shelvey or Gerrard as anything other than attacking midfielders. Whether Shelvey would turn out in the same Gerrard mould is not known at this juncture but he is a good prospect and was bought to eventually replace Gerrard I believe. You make some good points though milnerpoint and your input is appreciated.

yeah like i said i dont know enough about him to say if that could even be considered as a reason, it was more of a general thing than anything else. what ive said could have something to do with it or nothing at all to do with it, but you need to look at all the posibilities and hope in the future you can make better use of the system by taking everything into account, especially when it comes to dealing with Regens and not players you can relate to at the moment.

Thanks for the reply Jiggy but in this case I wonder if it is because I am a month or so into a new game and not had a chance to build up an in game reputation bar starting as an ex international player or that this part of tutoring is indeed broken.

I started off as Celtic Manager with a Sunday league footballer reputation, I had alot of problems with players not being motivated to playing under me and my teams form was erratic. I had to do alot of convincing when I wanted to get players tutored too

Now I have attained an Alex Ferguson type reputation at the club, players rarely go against my advice or do I have to convince anyone.

If you ask me, their perception of you is a large factor in this and you have to be very very careful with the way you ask players to work together.

oooooh a dundonian, not sure i should be given you advice!!!

do you make it up to Tanadice much?

I don't get to Tannadice very often I'm afraid, having to live down south (groan) and a demanding young family... How's Pittodrie these days?

I started off as Celtic Manager with a Sunday league footballer reputation, I had alot of problems with players not being motivated to playing under me and my teams form was erratic. I had to do alot of convincing when I wanted to get players tutored too

Now I have attained an Alex Ferguson type reputation at the club, players rarely go against my advice or do I have to convince anyone.

If you ask me, their perception of you is a large factor in this and you have to be very very careful with the way you ask players to work together.

Good point Jiggy, that's what I was worried may be the cause in part, although you think the youngster would also consider the advice and not just where it is coming from - sometimes in life good advice can come from where you least expect it!

I don't get to Tannadice very often I'm afraid, having to live down south (groan) and a demanding young family... How's Pittodrie these days?

Shame your missing out on the top quality SPL football...........hahahaha

Pittodrie is falling apart and empty, much like it always has been!!! Although there are plans for us to get a shinny new stadium in the near future but i think stuart milne has just run out of places to build his cheap flats so he wants to use pittodrie area instead!! At least you guys didnt get into trouble like your neighbours, shocking state of affairs at dens park it must be said.

I've had similar problems on various Liverpool saves. Even after using the editor data to try and best match the youngsters to tutors some kids just aren't interested with Suso being the worst culprit. It all seems a little bit random compared to past versions where provided the players weren't complete imbeciles you got at least some small positive improvements. Some saves Shelvey has jumped at the chance to work with Gerrard other times he has point blank refused...

Yup, the Thompson's seem ok, Dundee in all sorts tho! We are being run reasonably sensibly I think but how long will it be before Rangers/Celtic in for the odd decent player we have. Sympathies about the ground - we could do with same. Max attendance a lot lower than when I was a kid.

I've had similar problems on various Liverpool saves. Even after using the editor data to try and best match the youngsters to tutors some kids just aren't interested with Suso being the worst culprit. It all seems a little bit random compared to past versions where provided the players weren't complete imbeciles you got at least some small positive improvements. Some saves Shelvey has jumped at the chance to work with Gerrard other times he has point blank refused...

Suso has very low professionalism so I can kinda understand him being difficult but in past versions you could get round this by getting a player with average professionalism to tutor him first and then work towards somebody like Gerrard on the third stint but it doesn't seem possible now

I know what you mean. Suso is a prime candidate for requiring tutoring as his stats are poor in many respects.

Yup, the Thompson's seem ok, Dundee in all sorts tho! We are being run reasonably sensibly I think but how long will it be before Rangers/Celtic in for the odd decent player we have. Sympathies about the ground - we could do with same. Max attendance a lot lower than when I was a kid.

yeah you guys are in good shape, to be honest stewarty is the only reason we still have a club at this level so i shouldnt complain too much! I think Goodwillie will be off to the gers in the summer but it will give you guys some much needed money! Its a shame you lost Levin i liked what he was doing with the club he could have propelled you guys into serious contenders after a while. Do you get to see Liverpool or any other team down by you?

The weird thing is it's all totally random. The very same youngster can accept enthusiastically or reject the tutoring from the very same mentor without any apparent reason, so i decided I'd just save the game before proposing any tutoring: if the youngster rejects I re-load the game, re-propose, and most of the times he accepts saying "it would be great...", can't consider that cheating as it's totally non-sense, still tutoring is too important for the development of youngsters, so...

Again i would disagree, what would a young defensive midfielder learn from an attacking midfielder? It wouldnt really benfit their game at all except for one or two stats, not something that would encourage them to be tutored by someone. Just because someone plays centre mid does not mean they can train every kind of central midfielder in a usefull mannor, not everyone is going to be in the same mould as Gerrard.

A perfect fit is actually as it sounds perfect in this situation, two player very similar one with masses of experience and one with none, so it makes very good sense to get them to work together, picking dissimilar players in this situation can do more damage than good.

The whole point about tutoring is to make one player closer to another in terms of personality. A perfect fit is meaningless. You want to get rid of the lack of ambition, not tutor an unambitious player with another unambitious player.

Shelvey isn't a defensive midfielder anyway, but even if he was, surely being tutored by Gerrard suggests the manager wants him to take a more offensive role in his game?

Every young aspiring Liverpool player will want to learn from Gerrard. It might not work out, but there really is no reason for them to reject it in the first place unless they have terrible attitudes.

Ask any aspiring left-winger whether they would want to learn from Giggs; ask any aspiring striker whether David Villa is someone they would want to work with. They will not turn down that opportunity at all. Shelvey and Gerrard are hardly that different anyway - Shelvey did well in attacking midfield and has been deployed on the right for Liverpool on occasion - like Gerrard.

The whole point about tutoring is to make one player closer to another in terms of personality. A perfect fit is meaningless. You want to get rid of the lack of ambition, not tutor an unambitious player with another unambitious player.

Shelvey isn't a defensive midfielder anyway, but even if he was, surely being tutored by Gerrard suggests the manager wants him to take a more offensive role in his game?

Every young aspiring Liverpool player will want to learn from Gerrard. It might not work out, but there really is no reason for them to reject it in the first place unless they have terrible attitudes.

Ask any aspiring left-winger whether they would want to learn from Giggs; ask any aspiring striker whether David Villa is someone they would want to work with. They will not turn down that opportunity at all. Shelvey and Gerrard are hardly that different anyway - Shelvey did well in attacking midfield and has been deployed on the right for Liverpool on occasion - like Gerrard.

a perfect fit is anything but meaninless, its very very important to mix the right kind of people together, the chances of you using an unabitious player to tutor someone is very slim and would not be recomended at all, as you say you dont want that rubbing off, but choosing two players who think alike and play alike is very important and will do the young player the world of good, choosing two people at opposite ends of the spectrum is just asking for them to fall out. There are people more skilled than me at my work but i wouldnt want to work closely with some of them because i dont think i would get the benefit because our personalities dont mix well, thats life in general.

although your right to a point, you wouldnt ask the likes of Babacar to be tutored by David Villa on such a close basis, as it wouldnt benefit his game to the point of it being worthwhile, he will pick up things from him anyway without you forcing two different kinds of strikers together.

The thing you have to remember (and im just using the defensive mid example here) the game would not take into account your maybe wanting him to push forward, he is set as a defensive mid, unless he has the attributes to go forward and has shown he can do it, it would be a pointless exercise, would a young roy keane have benefited from learning from a modern day paul scholes, not really, very different kinds of midfield players (although judging by scholes's tackling i could be wrong!! lol ) Like i have said tho in this case with Gerrard and Shelvey i was mearly offering a possible explination, and others have said they do get that combination to work so im probaly wrong with what i have said but its worth thinking about nonetheless.

The weird thing is it's all totally random. The very same youngster can accept enthusiastically or reject the tutoring from the very same mentor without any apparent reason, so i decided I'd just save the game before proposing any tutoring: if the youngster rejects I re-load the game, re-propose, and most of the times he accepts saying "it would be great...", can't consider that cheating as it's totally non-sense, still tutoring is too important for the development of youngsters, so...

I'd do something that improves the relationship between you and the players you want to work together before asking them, increase your chances of success.

Asking someone to do something can be random, all depends on their frame of mind at that moment in time. The game is trying to simulate this

Agreed, I think Goodwillie will be off in summer too. We just managed to fight off a Gers bid in January (paltry 750K I think). I'm sorry Levein left, I liked what he was doing but was pleasantly surprised Houston did as well as he did in the second part of last season.

How is Brown doing for you guys? Shame you have struggled, would be nice to see you up there. My best mate at school was a Dons man. In the old days you always got higher attendances than us due to us having 2 teams in the city (and were a little more successful than us).

Wish I could see Liverpool, too far away I'm afraid again. Too far south and east I'm afraid. The money for Goodwillie would be good, but I don't think we are well enough off that we will get it all back to reinvest.

Agreed, I think Goodwillie will be off in summer too. We just managed to fight off a Gers bid in January (paltry 750K I think). I'm sorry Levein left, I liked what he was doing but was pleasantly surprised Houston did as well as he did in the second part of last season.

How is Brown doing for you guys? Shame you have struggled, would be nice to see you up there. My best mate at school was a Dons man. In the old days you always got higher attendances than us due to us having 2 teams in the city (and were a little more successful than us).

Wish I could see Liverpool, too far away I'm afraid again. Too far south and east I'm afraid. The money for Goodwillie would be good, but I don't think we are well enough off that we will get it all back to reinvest.

Yeah you should get around £1-2m for him although with what has happened in his private life recently you might struggle!

Brown has been a saviour to be honest, he has probably saved us from going down this year, for whatever reason McGee just didnt do it, the players didnt seem to like him very much and the results were shocking, but since Brown has come in there has been a big difference, its just a shame he will have to retire soon and we will back to square one again!!! Like you guys there is just is no investment in the player side of things now a days, we cant afford too, the good thing for both our teams tho is the young players we have brought through in recent years, you guys have had quite a few real gems who will get you a good return, we now have a few as well that hopefully we can sell on for a good price and build from there.

I'd do something that improves the relationship between you and the players you want to work together before asking them, increase your chances of success.

Asking someone to do something can be random, all depends on their frame of mind at that moment in time. The game is trying to simulate this

you may have a point, but tbh it seems too much random to me, and has happened with players (both youngsters and mentors) who had me as favoured personnel as well. As I said, if I save and see the tutoring rejected I just re-load, re-propose the very same mentor at the very same moment and the youngster would often accept gladly. Can't see much sense in this.

a perfect fit is anything but meaninless, its very very important to mix the right kind of people together, the chances of you using an unabitious player to tutor someone is very slim and would not be recomended at all,

So tell me, who is a good tutor for an unambitious, disloyal, unprofessional player?

Is it going to be a Mario Balotelli, or a Steven Gerrard?

as you say you dont want that rubbing off, but choosing two players who think alike and play alike is very important and will do the young player the world of good, choosing two people at opposite ends of the spectrum is just asking for them to fall out.

Shelvey and Gerrard are not at opposite ends of the spectrum. Neither is Pacheco and Torres.

There are people more skilled than me at my work but i wouldnt want to work closely with some of them because i dont think i would get the benefit because our personalities dont mix well, thats life in general.

But if your boss, who has your best interests at heart, suggests you learn from someone who is very different to you but is extremely successful, wouldn't you at least give it a shot?

although your right to a point, you wouldnt ask the likes of Babacar to be tutored by David Villa on such a close basis, as it wouldnt benefit his game to the point of it being worthwhile, he will pick up things from him anyway without you forcing two different kinds of strikers together.

Why would it not benefit Babacar to learn from one of the best strikers in the world, who was extremely reluctant to leave Valencia, who is a very good professional? Because they are different players? Every player is different!

The thing you have to remember (and im just using the defensive mid example here) the game would not take into account your maybe wanting him to push forward, he is set as a defensive mid, unless he has the attributes to go forward and has shown he can do it, it would be a pointless exercise

Would it? You are talking about youngsters here, with lots of scope to grow. A young defensive midfielder who only keeps things simple may be asked to learn from Gerrard to expand his game. Maybe he doesn't have the ability now - maybe you are getting him to learn, and one of the ways is to, er, I don't know, get him to learn off one of the best attacking midfielders in the Premier League?

would a young roy keane have benefited from learning from a modern day paul scholes, not really, very different kinds of midfield players (although judging by scholes's tackling i could be wrong!! lol )

Yes he would have - Scholes is a brilliant midfielder and young Keane would have learnt a lot from him.

Like i have said tho in this case with Gerrard and Shelvey i was mearly offering a possible explination, and others have said they do get that combination to work so im probaly wrong with what i have said but its worth thinking about nonetheless.

You don't have to work around plausible explanations to justify the game.

What could possibly make a young Liverpool midfielder reject a Liverpool midfield dynamo, legend and skipper? Ignore the game here. Why would a young midfielder reject it or be unsure, unless he is a Mario Balotelli - in which Shelvey is not!

So Shelvey is incapable of bad judgement?

So Shelvey is incapable of bad judgement?

How is it bad judgement to learn from one of the best attacking midfielders in the Premier League who has at times won games single-handedly for Liverpool thanks to his attitude?

So tell me, who is a good tutor for an unambitious, disloyal, unprofessional player?

Is it going to be a Mario Balotelli, or a Steven Gerrard?

there really isnt a great tutor for those kind of players, all that will happen is the player trying to tutor them will fall out with them in the long run, at least in the game

Shelvey and Gerrard are not at opposite ends of the spectrum. Neither is Pacheco and Torres.

Pacheco and Torres are not similar kinds of players that was my point

But if your boss, who has your best interests at heart, suggests you learn from someone who is very different to you but is extremely successful, wouldn't you at least give it a shot?

Why would it not benefit Babacar to learn from one of the best strikers in the world, who was extremely reluctant to leave Valencia, who is a very good professional? Because they are different players? Every player is different!

because Villa could not teach Babacar how to play to his strengths, he could help him in training with finishing and a few other things but thats different from tutoring somebody, you dont have to be tutored to learn from someone

Would it? You are talking about youngsters here, with lots of scope to grow. A young defensive midfielder who only keeps things simple may be asked to learn from Gerrard to expand his game. Maybe he doesn't have the ability now - maybe you are getting him to learn, and one of the ways is to, er, I don't know, get him to learn off one of the best attacking midfielders in the Premier League?

Your speaking like every defensive mid either has the ability to push forward or the want to push forward, again players like to play to their strengths, if they feel they are better at the defensive side of things that is what they will want to work towards.

Yes he would have - Scholes is a brilliant midfielder and young Keane would have learnt a lot from him.

they are different players altogehter tho, Keane would not have benefited from one to one tutoring from Scholes unless he wanted to change the style of his game

You don't have to work around plausible explanations to justify the game.

What could possibly make a young Liverpool midfielder reject a Liverpool midfield dynamo, legend and skipper? Ignore the game here. Why would a young midfielder reject it or be unsure, unless he is a Mario Balotelli - in which Shelvey is not!

various things, a fallen out in training, bad judgment, Gerrad being in very poor form and Shevley not thinking its in his best interests at that moment in time, do i need to go on?

see bits in bold!

Maybe they feel intimidated by being expected to work with such high reputation players? I've not moved on to FM11 but in 10 I've always found tutoring to be alot more stable if you initially tutor somebody with a more average player before mixing them with the stars. Obviously it doesn't always work, for example sometimes you have a high rep, ambitious player who seems to expect to be immediately tutored by the leading players.

Not sure how much it applies to your example given that Shelvey and Pacheco aren't exactly unknown 16 year olds. And obviously if people are getting different results in reactions to tutoring just by reloading then there is something wrong somewhere.

And as far as I am aware Shelvey is an Attacking Midfielder, both in reality and in the game. Questions of ability aside from what I've seen of him he is a very similar player to Gerrard.

How is it bad judgement to learn from one of the best attacking midfielders in the Premier League who has at times won games single-handedly for Liverpool thanks to his attitude?

Is Shelvey incapable of making a bad decision/judgement? Of course he is.

You dont need a stink attitude like Balotelli to make poor decisions/judgement.

Yeah you should get around £1-2m for him although with what has happened in his private life recently you might struggle!

Brown has been a saviour to be honest, he has probably saved us from going down this year, for whatever reason McGee just didnt do it, the players didnt seem to like him very much and the results were shocking, but since Brown has come in there has been a big difference, its just a shame he will have to retire soon and we will back to square one again!!! Like you guys there is just is no investment in the player side of things now a days, we cant afford too, the good thing for both our teams tho is the young players we have brought through in recent years, you guys have had quite a few real gems who will get you a good return, we now have a few as well that hopefully we can sell on for a good price and build from there.

There's a bit of life in the old Brown yet! Shame about McGhee, a local favourite. In the old days, I can remember how good our respective youth policies were.

The problem with Goodwillie is twofold, not sure about the outcome of recent events and don't think he is on a massively long contract. Both will impact on price but would like 1.5M at least. Would be nice for you guys to turn it around and be bolstered by winning a trophy, historically (since I was a kid anyway) Aberdeen and United were the ones who took it to the Old Firm so I always had a strong respect for Aberdeen cos they were coming from the same point as us, growing to be challengers, although I think you guys were a little stronger than us and just made it that little bit bigger (apart from when we clashed in semis - we seemed to edge a few of them). We struggled for a while from the Golac years and even today, I fear we could only be as far away as losing 3/4 players from being back in a relegation fight.

there really isnt a great tutor for those kind of players, all that will happen is the player trying to tutor them will fall out with them in the long run, at least in the game

So if you have a bad attitude, nothing can be done about it?

Look at Joey Barton - and he's not a youngster.

Vieira is mentoring Balotelli in real-life - and they share no common position or style: http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2011/01/30/2329779/manchester-city-veteran-patrick-vieira-im-balotellis-mentor

I would have thought that the whole point about tutoring was to get rid of bad traits. This is why when it succeeds, the youngster begins to adopt the personality of his tutor.

Pacheco and Torres are not similar kinds of players that was my point

But Pacheco can certainly learn from Torres, both in terms of attitude and ability. Torres, for example, has very good movement - Pacheco can learn from that.

Torres is a world-class striker - why wouldn't Pacheco want to learn from him, given he is a forward too?

because Villa could not teach Babacar how to play to his strengths, he could help him in training with finishing and a few other things but thats different from tutoring somebody, you dont have to be tutored to learn from someone

Tutoring is learning from someone in the game!

Your speaking like every defensive mid either has the ability to push forward or the want to push forward, again players like to play to their strengths, if they feel they are better at the defensive side of things that is what they will want to work towards.

Well then, considering you control their training anyway, how is this relevant?

A manager will develop a player to help the team. A player who rejects this suggestion is going directly against the manager and the team.

A manager may not want a fully-defensive midfield anchor - he may want his midfielders to be more box-to-box and better all-rounders. Hence Gerrard.

At the end of the day, the player does not know better and it is not in his interests to not listen to the manager.

they are different players altogehter tho, Keane would not have benefited from one to one tutoring from Scholes unless he wanted to change the style of his game

How are they different? Keane just had a better engine and Scholes had more finesse - both were complete midfielders at their peaks.

Keane could have learnt from Scholes's vision and passing - at the end of the day, that is exactly what a midfielder is meant to do, and Scholes is a master at both.

various things, a fallen out in training, bad judgment, Gerrad being in very poor form and Shevley not thinking its in his best interests at that moment in time, do i need to go on?

- Falling out in training - neither is unprofessional enough to let it drag on and hurt the team.

- Bad judgement - it is not bad judgement to learn from one of the best attacking midfielders in the Premier League.

- Gerrard in bad form - Gerrard has been in bad form for a whole season now - but nobody doubts his attitude and what he can do. It has not diminished his star amongst Kop legends.

- Shelvey not thinking it is in his best interests - I fail to see how this is actually possible, considering Gerrard is a Liverpool legend, a dynamic attacking midfielder and widely-regarded as one of the best in his position. It is like refusing to learn from someone who is the best in your field of work.

Seriously. Look at the number of young Liverpool fans who wear Gerrard shirts. Youngsters have grown up seeing Gerrard win games for Liverpool. Every single young Liverpool midfielder wants to be the next Gerrard. Every single young Liverpool midfielder will want to learn from him. Shelvey isn't going to think, "Well, I'm an attacking midfielder who has played on the wing before, so it's not in my interests to learn from the best attacking midfielder at my club, who has experience on the wing."

you may have a point, but tbh it seems too much random to me, and has happened with players (both youngsters and mentors) who had me as favoured personnel as well. As I said, if I save and see the tutoring rejected I just re-load, re-propose the very same mentor at the very same moment and the youngster would often accept gladly. Can't see much sense in this.

I agree, I have seen this randomness also and that worries me. Makes we wonder how much 'fixed' logic there is in this. Surely there cannot be a random element to this. It would not make sense.

Is Shelvey incapable of making a bad decision/judgement? Of course he is.

You dont need a stink attitude like Balotelli to make poor decisions/judgement.

How are you supposed to make the wrong decision when the correct decision, to learn from the best midfielder at your club (who has a good attitude on the pitch), is literally smack-bang right in front of your face?

Why on earth would Shelvey reject this opportunity in real-life?

It is like passing up the opportunity to get a free winning lottery ticket without having to do anything. It simply won't happen.

There's a bit of life in the old Brown yet! Shame about McGhee, a local favourite. In the old days, I can remember how good our respective youth policies were.

The problem with Goodwillie is twofold, not sure about the outcome of recent events and don't think he is on a massively long contract. Both will impact on price but would like 1.5M at least. Would be nice for you guys to turn it around and be bolstered by winning a trophy, historically (since I was a kid anyway) Aberdeen and United were the ones who took it to the Old Firm so I always had a strong respect for Aberdeen cos they were coming from the same point as us, growing to be challengers, although I think you guys were a little stronger than us and just made it that little bit bigger (apart from when we clashed in semis - we seemed to edge a few of them). We struggled for a while from the Golac years and even today, I fear we could only be as far away as losing 3/4 players from being back in a relegation fight.

it seems like hearts are now the nearest competition the old firm have which is hard to take! they seem to have the most cash outwith the glasgow teams now a days. Although it was good to see you guys lifiting the scottish cup last season, just a shame it didnt come before Thompson Snr passed away, it was a fitting tribute to the work he put into saving united and getting them back on track.

How are you supposed to make the wrong decision when the correct decision, to learn from the best midfielder at your club (who has a good attitude on the pitch), is literally smack-bang right in front of your face?

Why on earth would Shelvey reject this opportunity in real-life?

It is like passing up the opportunity to get a free winning lottery ticket without having to do anything. It simply won't happen.

I think one of the important factors is that you have only recently joined the club. It may be that the player is saying that as far as he is concerned he already learns from Gerrard during training and he doesn't have enough respect for you to change the way he's going about things. I'm pretty sure that the longer you spend at the club and the more success you have the more likely your players are to react positively to tutoring suggestions and learning/unlearning PPMs. In essence the player could be reacting against you trying to exert your authority on him, rather than against the proposal itself.

I think one of the important factors is that you have only recently joined the club. It may be that the player is saying that as far as he is concerned he already learns from Gerrard during training and he doesn't have enough respect for you to change the way he's going about things. I'm pretty sure that the longer you spend at the club and the more success you have the more likely your players are to react positively to tutoring suggestions and learning/unlearning PPMs. In essence the player could be reacting against you trying to exert your authority on him, rather than against the proposal itself.

Well, yes, but the prospect of learning from Gerrard must surely outweigh the manager's lack of experience at the club, no?

It's not like it takes a rocket-scientist to discover that pairing one of your most promising midfield prospects with the best midfielder at your club is a good idea.

(Again, you don't have to make excuses for the game. When you see so many Gerrard shirts at Anfield, do you seriously think Shelvey is going to reject Gerrard's tutoring?)

it seems like hearts are now the nearest competition the old firm have which is hard to take! they seem to have the most cash outwith the glasgow teams now a days. Although it was good to see you guys lifiting the scottish cup last season, just a shame it didnt come before Thompson Snr passed away, it was a fitting tribute to the work he put into saving united and getting them back on track.

Totally agree about Thompson Snr. That would have meant a lot.

Yup, Hearts seem to be the one at the mo. Shame, Romonov (still there I guess?) he had a real way with managers a while back - eg sacking Burley when they were clear top a few seasons ago. I hope the Old Firm will come back to the pack (I think they have a little in the last couple of seasons) but there is still a sizable gap.

The money is not in Scottish football although to quote Levein the other day, the majority of players he scouts now for internationals are in Premiership whereas a year or two ago they were in the Championship.

So if you have a bad attitude, nothing can be done about it?

Look at Joey Barton - and he's not a youngster.

Vieira is mentoring Balotelli in real-life - and they share no common position or style: http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2011/01/30/2329779/manchester-city-veteran-patrick-vieira-im-balotellis-mentor

Nobody tutored Barton into being who he is now, he grew up and learned from his own mistakes, and Vieira is helping Balotelli settle into life in england which is very different from tutoring him into being a better forward.

I would have thought that the whole point about tutoring was to get rid of bad traits. This is why when it succeeds, the youngster begins to adopt the personality of his tutor.

But Pacheco can certainly learn from Torres, both in terms of attitude and ability. Torres, for example, has very good movement - Pacheco can learn from that.

Torres is a world-class striker - why wouldn't Pacheco want to learn from him, given he is a forward too?

he would learn from him, everyday in training, but it doesnt mean he has to work closely with him one to one

Tutoring is learning from someone in the game!

do you know for certain having good players in your team alone does not have an effect on young players? I would say it does personally.

Well then, considering you control their training anyway, how is this relevant?

A manager will develop a player to help the team. A player who rejects this suggestion is going directly against the manager and the team.

A manager may not want a fully-defensive midfield anchor - he may want his midfielders to be more box-to-box and better all-rounders. Hence Gerrard.

At the end of the day, the player does not know better and it is not in his interests to not listen to the manager.

Not everything the manger says is correct, even if he is in charge

How are they different? Keane just had a better engine and Scholes had more finesse - both were complete midfielders at their peaks.

Keane could have learnt from Scholes's vision and passing - at the end of the day, that is exactly what a midfielder is meant to do, and Scholes is a master at both.

they were completely different kinds of players, Scholes is a playmaker for united, Keane was a midfield enforcer, what we would call a ball winning midfielder in the game, he was never near the technical level of scholes not even close, but he was a TOP player at his job.

- Falling out in training - neither is unprofessional enough to let it drag on and hurt the team. you must mean like at arsenal where Nasri and Gallas hated each other and it affected team moral and their ability to work together on the pitch, which i turn affected other players and created a divide in the dressing room, it does happen probably a lot more often than we read about

- Bad judgement - it is not bad judgement to learn from one of the best attacking midfielders in the Premier League. Well if he chose not too then yes it would be bad judgment

- Gerrard in bad form - Gerrard has been in bad form for a whole season now - but nobody doubts his attitude and what he can do. It has not diminished his star amongst Kop legends.

- Shelvey not thinking it is in his best interests - I fail to see how this is actually possible, considering Gerrard is a Liverpool legend, a dynamic attacking midfielder and widely-regarded as one of the best in his position. It is like refusing to learn from someone who is the best in your field of work.

Seriously. Look at the number of young Liverpool fans who wear Gerrard shirts. Youngsters have grown up seeing Gerrard win games for Liverpool. Every single young Liverpool midfielder wants to be the next Gerrard. Every single young Liverpool midfielder will want to learn from him. Shelvey isn't going to think, "Well, I'm an attacking midfielder who has played on the wing before, so it's not in my interests to learn from the best attacking midfielder at my club, who has experience on the wing."

not everyone who plays midfield wants to be Gerrard, they want to be themselves but have the same level of success and appreciation as Gerrard has throughout his career, theres a bit difference there.

again see the bold bits