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lonestar190
07-02-2011, 20:33
This bug/flaw whatever you want to call it has been in the match engine for years and has never been addressed or fixed.

Every single goal kick, for any team, the defensive line for the kicking team , and specifically the central defenders, start with a nice buffer between them and the opposing strikers. As the ball soars over the defenders' heads and towards an offensive player, the defensive line, for no good reason, always moves 15-20 yards forwards and, by the time the ball comes down for the challanged header, is even with teh opposing striker and moving away from goal.

The result: a good header by the opposing defenders sends the striker clean through on goal.

As the opposing team's defender wins the ball, my defenders are moving away from goal and their striker is standing still, even and thus perfectly onside with my defenders. Because the defenders aremoving away, the striker gets a 6-7 yard lead the second every player reacts.

There is nothing tactically that can be done to prevent this. I play in a lower league, and have two slower central defenders. i play a deep defensive line, make the defenders stand off the opposing strikers, and during open play my tactic works great. But in this one area of the game, for some inexplicable reason, the defenders are moving the wrong direction and completely out of place.

Defenders of the kicking team dont move a lot while a goal kick is inthe air, and definitely dont run 15-20 yards from where they were initially barring a horrible kick that brings them into play. This is extremely poor coding and has been in the game for years and years. Stop adding agents and other fluff and fix this kind of thing that ruins my hard fought tactical game.

If, by chance, I am wrong in this and somehow my tactical work over the last several years has missed the solution, I am all ears and apologize. But check your game and see if during a goal kick the defensive line doesn't completely expose itself to a quick through ball pretty much every single time. AI temas as well.

Rikulec
07-02-2011, 20:37
I've had it too and the only thing you can do is telling your goalie to pass the ball to DR/DL.

kingjericho
07-02-2011, 20:58
Yes, this is so annoying. Apparently goal kicks are the best way to create CCCs this year.

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 00:02
It is a highlight at least once, and usually more, in every game I play right now.

Unacceptable.

From my last game: Here is the defensive line position when the kick is taken. Notice the nice buffer between the slow CBs and the quick Strikers as per my instructions of having a fairly deep defensive line. I do not play an offside trap.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2949/meflaw1.png

Here is the position when the yellow team midfielder heads the ball from the kick. Not a huge difference, but notice that the yellow strikers HAVE NOT MOVED!! Thus my team is moving the wrong direction and the strikers get a huge advantage.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5553/meflaw2.png

And the result.

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/543/meflaw3.png


My slow defender gets a nice red card for a professional foul. Thanks SI. This has been happening for years. This is not a new problem! FIX IT!

Coentrao
08-02-2011, 00:13
I've noticed that this is happening a lot since the last patch, i'm actually getting a lot of chances this way but it's quite unrealistic, every other game you see at least one chance from this situation.

paganizer
08-02-2011, 08:39
So I guess use defender collect and abuse it in the other end by pressing with a high defensive line :)

her0n
08-02-2011, 09:08
This is exactly why I tell my Gk to distribute to DR, it helps.

robertcornell68
08-02-2011, 09:35
So, you kick the ball into central midfield for your strong CMs to win it in the air. Meanwhile, your defence pushes up to catch the opposition off-side.

It isn't working.

How many times do you get stung before you stop poking the wasp nest?

aderow
08-02-2011, 10:10
This happens to me more than I would like.

In fact that exactly sturridge scored against me tonight....

underwater sunlight
08-02-2011, 10:37
if you feel it is a bug issue thet needs to be addressed then post it in the bug forum. give as much information as possible, bearing in mind the next patch is almost certainly the last

BossAsianMafia
08-02-2011, 12:29
So, you kick the ball into central midfield for your strong CMs to win it in the air. Meanwhile, your defence pushes up to catch the opposition off-side.

It isn't working.

How many times do you get stung before you stop poking the wasp nest?

How many goals in this manner have you seen in RL?
Maybe we should push to fix the ME instead of working around it all the time?

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 12:32
must admit i never really see this at all, my keeper always throws it out short and when he does kick it i never get caught out, cant really think of me scoring many if any like this either but then i always play with a deep defensive line and play quick counter attacking football.

Misodoctakleidist
08-02-2011, 14:14
I have never noticed this before FM11, but now it happens several times a match. It is particularly stupid when it becomes obvious the ball will be coming back but the defender just charge forwards regardless.

stokes_83
08-02-2011, 14:20
This problem drives me crazy! I guess we will just have to force our keepers to throw the ball to the fullbacks until SI fix this stupid problem.

ham_aka_stam
08-02-2011, 14:25
if you feel it is a bug issue thet needs to be addressed then post it in the bug forum. give as much information as possible, bearing in mind the next patch is almost certainly the last

This. Anyone who complains without raising a bug in the bug forum (or providing further examples to an existing one) has no right to complain.

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 14:37
The whole match engine is pretty shaky, in my opinion.

Players pretty much do what they want, no matter how much you pander to what they know, or what they are good at.

You can do as much consistent match preparation & tactical mucking about as you like, it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

Little rhyme or reason in results.

I've been playing this game for years, so I know how the whole tactics side of the game works:

-Got players all in their preferred positions
-Tactics they are playing to are their preferred, as stated in the editor e.g. Leeds - quite direct, wide, quick - traditional wing-based 442
-Match preparation says they team are 'Accomplished' in every area
-Morale is great, fitness excellent
-Tweaked my reputation at the beginning of the game so they'd listen to me a bit more!
-Gave it 20 matches on 'Team Blend' to let them gel, but I didn't buy any new players anyway, so this is probably overkill
-Team listed as 'blending well together'
-Coaches up to between 3 and half and 4 stars for everything - pushing them a bit in training
-I know how team talks and the media work - I'm pretty good with that

Still getting totally inconsistent results that make no sense whatsoever.

I've tried using 'cheats' like FMRTE just to test, and set each player in each position to 'Pro', so they are all absolutely consistent, but no real effect.

They still wander about doing pretty much whatever they like!

Other past versions have felt like the user really is having a defined effect on a team.

I don't get that feeling from this version - there's just too much weird stuff going on that makes no sense...

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 14:42
then you must be doing something wrong, seriously, i just walked through the spanish league, scored 137 league goals, conceded 16. lost one game in the league to Real and lost the champs league final to Real, no stuttering, tactics working exactly as i set them up, leave ass man to press conferences, standard training, good coaches but not the best in the world and a very standard 4-4-2 tactic with the wingers playing higher up the pitch and one as an inside winger.

Kenco
08-02-2011, 14:58
I've seen it a few times, but seriously, every goal kick?? Doubtful. If this was true we would see loads more goals.

In fact, I will change my tactics to encourage my team to take lots of long shots and give away goal kicks to see how many I can score from!

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 15:11
[QUOTE=milnerpoint;6473519]then you must be doing something wrong, seriously]

Honestly, with the greatest of respect I really don't think I am.

I know everyone says this, but I've been playing this game for so long! I know how it works!

Everything from tactical, to training, to media - I've been ridiculously successful in other releases!

I've tried Newcastle, Leeds and Grimsby so far, with pretty much the same result.

No consistency of performance - amazing against a good team away with my standard tactic, then capitulate at home with the exact same tactic.

Players constantly do stuff they haven't been asked to do, or have specifically been asked NOT to do!!

Difficult to get really gripped by the game when results differ wildly even with a settled team playing settled tactics...

Kenco - I've got that problem too. It isn't EVERY time...but it does happen way too often.

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 15:32
well as i say i have not seen those issues at all so it must be to do with your tactics and the way you are setting things up. If you know how it works then you should know how to avoid the situations you are describing, and im really not meaning to sound condescending here but i have also played FM games for years and i dont struggle as i have shown. You have to remember that sometimes for no reason your team will play badly, its up to you as the manager to pull it together and get it working, players have their own mind, even if you ask them to do things they will ignore you thats football, a manager does not control every single aspect of a game of football. Not having a go but it seems that people expect once they have found a single way of winning that this will continue indefinitely without any problems but again football does not work that way.

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 16:18
Just wanted to reply to a few people and try to keep the conversation on point:

First off, thanks for the replies, good to see the issue getting dome attention:

Second, yes, it happens in every game. And it most likely happens in your game. By "it" I mean the poor defensive line positioning. The reason you are not seeing it, is that you have speedy, quality defenders. Had my defender been faster than the striker in the above posted pictures, it probably wouldn't have even been a highlight. This is probably the situation in your game. However, your defensive line is still starting at one point, and pushing forward on goal kicks for no reason, while the opposing strikers don't really move. I have seen several goal kicks where there is no CC created, but the defensive line is still doing the same poor positioning.

I have slow defenders and do not play the offside trap. However, my lone striker and 2 of my CM's are really good in the air. Thus, having to distribute to my full backs hurts me. While I have started doing this, it is a poor solution when the fix should really be a way of getting my defenders to hold like they do during open play.

Also, this does not seem to be an issue when the keeper clears the ball or kicks it otherwise. It seems to be isolated to goal kicks and free kicks in the same area.

If anyone can post screenshots of this not happening (i.e. the defensive line not moving on a goal kick) I would be most interested.

Remember: the fact that you are not seeing this regularly may mean your defenders are quick enough to prevent the one on one. Essentially, it hides the issue from you. It is still an issue though.

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 16:39
if you cannot adjust your tactics to suit your defence then its your problem not the problem with the ME. Just because your centre mids are good in the air doesnt mean you should punt balls at them all day long, the fact you are conceding like you describe tells me it doesnt work and you need to look at that rather than blame the game. Remember we ALL play off the same code if updated to the newest patches so if one of us has a bug then we are all effected and clearly thats not the case in this instance.

ndebergerac
08-02-2011, 16:54
This. Anyone who complains without raising a bug in the bug forum (or providing further examples to an existing one) has no right to complain.

Wait, so some one has no right to complain about such a flaw that he feels has been in game for years? That said the OP is clearly exaggerating how often this happens, I see it every now and then for and against me, which may not be all that unrealistic, it certainly happens from time to time irl.

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 16:55
if you cannot adjust your tactics to suit your defence then its your problem not the problem with the ME. Just because your centre mids are good in the air doesnt mean you should punt balls at them all day long, the fact you are conceding like you describe tells me it doesnt work and you need to look at that rather than blame the game. Remember we ALL play off the same code if updated to the newest patches so if one of us has a bug then we are all effected and clearly thats not the case in this instance.

Did you even read my post before responding? I think your personal view of your own awesomeness in running the Spanish league is preventing you from properly analyzing this situation. Did you move your ego out of the way, start of FM and see see if your defensive line moves as detailed in the pictures above? I dout it.

Stop punting the ball? It is goal kicks, not punts that are the issue. Calm down, try playing with a couple of slow CBs, and then get back to me. At the very least, open up FM and see what is happening with your defensive line on goal kicks. If it is moving as above, it is incorrect from a basic football point of view.

The fact that you are not conceding from an issue (as stated clearly above) does not mean it is not an issue. And the solution of not kicking the ball from goal kicks is just stupid. Its a fix for now, but in real life you would be able to properly position your defenders, not have to work around them.

Open the game, check out the issue, post screenshots. Or just post about how awesome you are. The latter makes you look good, I promise.

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 16:59
i never said i was awesome infact you appear to be the one claiming that, anyway ill leave you to it, your more interested in finding a fault with the game than admitting it could be your tactics.

tubbycrabs
08-02-2011, 17:01
I've seen this happen hundreds of times in my save, but I've been playing as Liverpool so it affects the (generally weaker) opposition much more than me, creating tonnes of clear cut chances for my nippy strikers to screw wide or hit straight at the keeper. If you've got a tall player in the anchor position, and quick strikers, that seems to be the best way to benefit from this bug.

Coentrao
08-02-2011, 17:01
I posted about this a while ago on the match engine feedback thread

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/231054-Official-FM2011-Match-Engine-Feedback-Thread?p=6315348&viewfull=1#post6315348

Please don't play the "it's your tactics" card people.. i benefit from this a lot without doing anything in particular(except having a pacey forward upfront) there are way too many chances created this way, i've only noticed this happening a lot since the last patch.

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 17:07
i never said i was awesome infact you appear to be the one claiming that, anyway ill leave you to it, your more interested in finding a fault with the game than admitting it could be your tactics.

I think you opened your game and noticed it happening....or you were to lazy to do so. Either way, thanks for the contribution.

themadsheep2001
08-02-2011, 17:14
saw this happen to the opposition a fair few times in my first season, they were laying a high line against me, and i have rooney and hernandez up front. Not seen it happen second season, assume because teams fear me and thus play more defensive and therefore a deeper line. never had the issue against me though.

If its happening to you, play a deeper line

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 17:27
saw this happen to the opposition a fair few times in my first season, they were laying a high line against me, and i have rooney and hernandez up front. Not seen it happen second season, assume because teams fear me and thus play more defensive and therefore a deeper line. never had the issue against me though.

If its happening to you, play a deeper line

But....I play a deep line (as stated several times). 3-4 clicks up from the lowest option. Playing any deeper makes the rest of my tactic go to heck and still doesn't fix the issue. Goal kicks seem to mostly ignore the defensive line settings.

Misodoctakleidist
08-02-2011, 17:34
I can't believe anyone is defending such an obvious bug.

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 17:56
if you cannot adjust your tactics to suit your defence then its your problem not the problem with the ME. Just because your centre mids are good in the air doesnt mean you should punt balls at them all day long, the fact you are conceding like you describe tells me it doesnt work and you need to look at that rather than blame the game. Remember we ALL play off the same code if updated to the newest patches so if one of us has a bug then we are all effected and clearly thats not the case in this instance.

Different issues in the code affect different users in different ways. Depends on much more than just having the latest update.

This is one of the reasons that SI are having trouble, for example, in isolating the problems SOME (not all) users are having with the tactics / set piece creator.

I am perfectly capable of adjusting my tactics, but there is still way too much inconsistency.

For example - you can play the exact same game, with a completely homogenised, standardised team, and use exactly the same tactics, teams talks and media interaction, and get a crazy set of results back!

I am not the only one to complain of this.

I am glad you are having no trouble and are enjoying the game, but that isn't the case for everyone.

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 17:58
well as i say i have not seen those issues at all so it must be to do with your tactics and the way you are setting things up. If you know how it works then you should know how to avoid the situations you are describing, and im really not meaning to sound condescending here but i have also played FM games for years and i dont struggle as i have shown. You have to remember that sometimes for no reason your team will play badly, its up to you as the manager to pull it together and get it working, players have their own mind, even if you ask them to do things they will ignore you thats football, a manager does not control every single aspect of a game of football. Not having a go but it seems that people expect once they have found a single way of winning that this will continue indefinitely without any problems but again football does not work that way.

I'm pretty well aware of how football works, as I also am about software development and the isolation of 'bugs'.

Again - I'm really glad you aren't struggling, but a lot of people genuinely are...

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 18:10
I'm also pretty well aware of how football works, as I also am about software development and the isolation of 'bugs'.

Again - I'm really glad you aren't struggling, but a lot of people genuinely are...

im delighted for you but what was the point you were trying to make?

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 18:31
im delighted for you but what was the point you were trying to make?

That just because the game is all fine for you, that doesn't mean that other people aren't having real problems.

Telling people they are doing something wrong just because you happen to be having a wonderful time managing in Spain isn't terribly helpful...

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 18:35
That just because the game is all fine for you, that doesn't mean that other people aren't having real problems.

Telling people they are doing something wrong just because you happen to be having a wonderful time managing in Spain isn't terribly helpful...

christ it was one example to show that consistancy is possible in the game despite what some people say, i am in no way showing off or bragging, it was just to show it is possible to have a team consistantly play well. If one person can achieve this in the game then everyone can do it with the right tactics and formations.

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 18:41
christ it was one example to show that consistancy is possible in the game despite what some people say, i am in no way showing off or bragging, it was just to show it is possible to have a team consistantly play well. If one person can achieve this in the game then everyone can do it with the right tactics and formations.

You are also in no way opening up your game and seeing if there is an issue. And your earlier post sounded a lot like bragging.

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 18:50
christ it was one example to show that consistancy is possible in the game despite what some people say, i am in no way showing off or bragging, it was just to show it is possible to have a team consistantly play well. If one person can achieve this in the game then everyone can do it with the right tactics and formations.

I don't think I personally accused you of bragging, or anything else for that matter. I've been perfectly friendly.

And your contention that because the game is OK for one person, it's OK for us all is incorrect.

There are legion examples all over these forums where some people are affected by certain issues, and other aren't.

It was the same with FM09 and FM10.

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 18:51
You are also in no way opening up your game and seeing if there is an issue. And your earlier post sounded a lot like bragging.

i could run tests if you really wanted, i have saves with AC Milan, Barcelona, Aberdeen, Cambridge and Luton, i have not had this issue with any of them, but then i dont try and aim all goal kicks down the middle of the pitch, centre backs will usually always be better in the air than my midfield or strikers so i dont see the point wasting posession like that.
Its hardly bragging saying you have dominated with the best team and best players in the world!! I'm no genius at this game but there are somethings that are simple to sort, this for me is one of them.

Bicycle
08-02-2011, 18:52
The way some people reply to these threads you'd think they're on some covert SI payroll.

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 18:56
i could run tests if you really wanted....

I did a bit of testing, just for the hell of it. Played the same match over and over.

Leeds vs Cardiff

Exactly the same team
Exactly the same tactics
Exactly the same set pieces
Exactly the same player interactions
Exactly the same media interactions
No changes at half time.
Same half time team talk.
Exact same subs at same time.

Leeds 4 - 0 Cardiff
Leeds 1 - 3 Cardiff
Leeds 2 - 2 Cardiff
Leeds 2 - 0 Cardiff
Leeds 0 - 3 Cardiff
Leeds 0 - 2 Cardiff
Leeds 2 - 2 Cardiff
Leeds 2 - 4 Cardiff

Results all over the shop, and I watched a fair few games in Extended or Full.

Players I'd asked not to take long shots pinging them in from 30 yards all the time.
Players I'd asked to mark a small player marking a tall.
Players I'd asked to play short balls banging old school Wimbledon route one "'ave it" balls down the pitch
Target man who I'd asked to stay central running down the wings to cross for a tiny poacher
Goalkeeper completely refusing to pass short

and on, and on, and on...

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 18:58
i could run tests if you really wanted, i have saves with AC Milan, Barcelona, Aberdeen, Cambridge and Luton, i have not had this issue with any of them, but then i dont try and aim all goal kicks down the middle of the pitch, centre backs will usually always be better in the air than my midfield or strikers so i dont see the point wasting posession like that.
Its hardly bragging saying you have dominated with the best team and best players in the world!! I'm no genius at this game but there are somethings that are simple to sort, this for me is one of them.

Open. Up. Your. Game.

Watch a goal kick. Watch what the defensive line does. If it moves as shown in the pictures posted, it is an flaw in the match engine. If not, it is a flaw in my tactics. Post your results. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Or keep spouting off like a 12 year old that you dont see it and therefore it doesnt exist.

Oh yeah, try playing with slow CBs.

And posting your results from paying with the best team in the world is hardly evidence of tactical issues.

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 18:59
i dont get it, did you expect the results to be exactly the same everytime? Do you expect your players to follow everything you say exactly?

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 18:59
None of this is quite as irritating as the inability of FM2010 to retain set piece instructions when changes are made to tactics.

That's the real killer for me, and is still hasn't been solved...

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 19:01
i dont get it, did you expect the results to be exactly the same everytime? Do you expect your players to follow everything you say exactly?

No, but you'd expect some level of consistency, or at least the results to be skewed one way or another, otherwise what are the tactics doing?

4 wins for Cardiff, 2 for Leeds, 2 draws.

Maybe a better example would be to try this on two teams who a bit less equally matched, actually.

Flohrinho
08-02-2011, 19:03
I think the major problem here is that the defense doesn't seam to react to opposition players at all as long as the opposition doesn't have the ball.

A point where you can totally see this is if you play zonal marking and one of your fullbacks gets drawn out of the back 4, then you might see with some teams that their striker moves into the space offered through the FB moving forward but none of the CB will even slightly react to that until this player gets the ball and makes a run forward.

In reality you would see the CB that is closest to that striker close in on him to avoid him having all the space in the world and the DM would start covering the center but none of this happens as long as the player doesn't have the ball which imo is a problem that the match engine doesn't react to the position of certain players as long as they don't have the ball.

Kenco
08-02-2011, 19:03
I think you guys have gone off topic anyway, I thought this thread was about the goal kick problem, but you two seem to be having your own argument about the game in general. We've got enough of those threads!

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 19:04
Open. Up. Your. Game.

Watch a goal kick. Watch what the defensive line does. If it moves as shown in the pictures posted, it is an flaw in the match engine. If not, it is a flaw in my tactics. Post your results. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Or keep spouting off like a 12 year old that you dont see it and therefore it doesnt exist.

Oh yeah, try playing with slow CBs.

And posting your results from paying with the best team in the world is hardly evidence of tactical issues.

defensive lines push up after a goal kick, thats the way it works, they do not sit deep from that situation, there is alot more than just the pace of the defender to think about, what should actually bother you is why your midfielder who you say is great in the air has been beaten from his own goal kick and why your keeper has only reached the half way line with his kick, i would look at that before blaming the defensive position, if your defenders are slow they would lose out in that situation anyway.
Name calling, great way to get your point across in a grown up mannor, well done.
I wasnt trying to show any tactical issues, you were.

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 19:05
And why do players insist on defying the instructions they are given?

What are the tactics doing if:

-You have told a player to only pass short
-You have taken his creative freedom down to close to zero
-He is playing within a defensive framework
-He is playing in a team who have been asked to pass short

Then you sit and watch him bang balls numerous 40 yard balls down this wing

-You have specifically instructed NO players to take long shots
-Low creative freedom across team
-Again, defensive set up across whole team

Long shot, after long shot, after long shot.

Some inconsistency in results between equal teams is fine, but being blatantly ignored???

Kind of makes the whole process of defining tactics a bit futile.

May as well just buy the best players you can, whack a generic 4-4-2 on them and let them them get on with it...

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 19:07
I think the major problem here is that the defense doesn't seam to react to opposition players at all as long as the opposition doesn't have the ball.

A point where you can totally see this is if you play zonal marking and one of your fullbacks gets drawn out of the back 4, then you might see with some teams that their striker moves into the space offered through the FB moving forward but none of the CB will even slightly react to that until this player gets the ball and makes a run forward.

In reality you would see the CB that is closest to that striker close in on him to avoid him having all the space in the world and the DM would start covering the center but none of this happens as long as the player doesn't have the ball which imo is a problem that the match engine doesn't react to the position of certain players as long as they don't have the ball.

I believe this is the core of the issue as well. The defensive line is based on the location of the ball, and ignores the opposition players. Becasue the opposition do not have the ball, their players do not react to the position of the ball. Thus the result as seen above.

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 19:07
No, but you'd expect some level of consistency, or at least the results to be skewed one way or another, otherwise what are the tactics doing?

4 wins for Cardiff, 2 for Leeds, 2 draws.

Maybe a better example would be to try this on two teams who a bit less equally matched, actually.

but one single thing can change the course of a game, there is no way you should expect the same results by running the same game over and over and especially not using the same team talks for each game even tho each game has its own unique situation at half time.

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 19:07
I think you guys have gone off topic anyway, I thought this thread was about the goal kick problem, but you two seem to be having your own argument about the game in general. We've got enough of those threads!

Sorry fella.

You're right - I digress.

I have been having the problem you and Lonestar have been talking about, but it's just one in a whole raft of weird stuff I see happening in every game, which is why I started banging on about the others.

I'll leave you to it! ; )

tjb2376
08-02-2011, 19:08
but one single thing can change the course of a game, there is no way you should expect the same results by running the same game over and over and especially not using the same team talks for each game even tho each game has its own unique situation at half time.

Apologies - I wrote that down wrong.

I used the Ass Man's suggested every time, not the same one every time.

I realise that wouldn't make sense...

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 19:09
defensive lines push up after a goal kick, thats the way it works, they do not sit deep from that situation, there is alot more than just the pace of the defender to think about, what should actually bother you is why your midfielder who you say is great in the air has been beaten from his own goal kick and why your keeper has only reached the half way line with his kick, i would look at that before blaming the defensive position, if your defenders are slow they would lose out in that situation anyway.
Name calling, great way to get your point across in a grown up mannor, well done.
I wasnt trying to show any tactical issues, you were.

Following this post I honestly think you simply dont know the basics of football.

Kenco
08-02-2011, 19:11
Sorry fella.

You're right - I digress.

I have been having the problem you and Lonestar have been talking about, but it's just one in a whole raft of weird stuff I see happening in every game, which is why I started banging on about the others.

I'll leave you to it! ; )

No worries. Just to point out, I'm not having issues with this myself, but have participated in the discussion and just didn't want to see it closed because of any bickering.

Hope I don't get done for impersonating a mod...

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 19:12
Following this post I honestly think you simply dont know the basics of football.

good for you, i guess we can both move on then, your right the game is terrible and everyone concedes goals from their own goal kicks every game. Happier now?

Coentrao
08-02-2011, 19:13
Why do some people refuse so blatantly to accept that there's a possible bug on this game?

If it was only "your tactics" you wouldn't get chances created this way on your favour as well, clearly this indicates that this particular instance is happening way too often.

We get it, you love the game and we love the game as well but the extent that people go to defend that there's nothing ever wrong with the game gets ridiculous sometimes and it's what often ruins threads on important issues.

Äktsjon Männ
08-02-2011, 19:16
i could run tests if you really wanted, i have saves with AC Milan, Barcelona, Aberdeen, Cambridge and Luton, i have not had this issue with any of them, but then i dont try and aim all goal kicks down the middle of the pitch, centre backs will usually always be better in the air than my midfield or strikers so i dont see the point wasting posession like that.
Its hardly bragging saying you have dominated with the best team and best players in the world!! I'm no genius at this game but there are somethings that are simple to sort, this for me is one of them.

So you're saying because you choose to work around the issue there must be no issue? I suppose it's one way to approach things...

I remember discussions on this from way back and from what I recall the way it works is intentional. The defensive line is meant to push up with every goal kick regardless of your tactical settings. The problem is that the defenders aren't quick enough to react if the ball comes back at them and more importantly, they are completely unable to anticipate it happening. It's a problem with general play as well and the reason why attacking players find it so easy to get clean through behind the defense in FM. Another thing that contributes to it is the accuracy of these sort of clearances by the defenders being way too high. In reality even if the defending player wins the header it's likely to end up at the feet of the opposition players or out of play as it's extremely hard to direct a header precisely where you want it to when you're being challenged in the air. This aspect is really not represented well in the ME.

Kenco
08-02-2011, 21:50
Question to the OP here: How do you watch your games? Full match, extended or key?

I've put mine onto extended this evening, and in 8 matches I have only actually seen one goal kick (and there was no goal at the end of it), but I know there were a lot more goal kicks than this because of the amount of shots off target. So are you saying that it happens on every goal kick, or every goal kick that is shown in highlights? Because obviously it would seem that any goal kick that doesn't end up going the way of your theory is not deemed worthy of a highlight.

milnerpoint
08-02-2011, 21:57
So you're saying because you choose to work around the issue there must be no issue? I suppose it's one way to approach things...

I remember discussions on this from way back and from what I recall the way it works is intentional. The defensive line is meant to push up with every goal kick regardless of your tactical settings. The problem is that the defenders aren't quick enough to react if the ball comes back at them and more importantly, they are completely unable to anticipate it happening. It's a problem with general play as well and the reason why attacking players find it so easy to get clean through behind the defense in FM. Another thing that contributes to it is the accuracy of these sort of clearances by the defenders being way too high. In reality even if the defending player wins the header it's likely to end up at the feet of the opposition players or out of play as it's extremely hard to direct a header precisely where you want it to when you're being challenged in the air. This aspect is really not represented well in the ME.

not really i find it more common sense with my choice of tactics and player choice, unless you have a big huge target man your forwards will almost always get beat in the air from your own goal kick, especially when a defender can take a run before attemping a jump, the player on the side of the goal kick doesnt always get that choice because the ball is coming towards him, so for me its common sense the defender will win most of those kind of balls so i find it useless to pump the ball up into that area, very few keepers in real life kick right down the middle they will go more to the sides to try and avoid what the OP is describing. But you are right the defensive line SHOULD push up in this situation, and your maybe right it is the anticipation of the defenders that is the problem not the defensive line itself.

Tycobbler39
08-02-2011, 22:26
Well i gave it a try, and i no 1 game is not a big sample size, but none of my goal kicks led my defensive line out of position, moved them forward, or produced the OP's scenario. I play a flat 4-4-2 all are told to stick to position, the CB's are central defenders/defend, my FB's are automatic. Balance/Standard/Man Marking/Stick to Position team instruction, pretty basic and i haven't been burned all season. 9-4-0

Wish i could help.

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 22:27
Question to the OP here: How do you watch your games? Full match, extended or key?

I've put mine onto extended this evening, and in 8 matches I have only actually seen one goal kick (and there was no goal at the end of it), but I know there were a lot more goal kicks than this because of the amount of shots off target. So are you saying that it happens on every goal kick, or every goal kick that is shown in highlights? Because obviously it would seem that any goal kick that doesn't end up going the way of your theory is not deemed worthy of a highlight.

I watch extended. My belief is that the poor defensive line positioning and movement happens every goal kick, but I see it more in highlights due to being in a lower league and having slower CBs. In my other game, I had quick CBs and barely saw the situation result in a CC (and thus rarely saw goal kicks in highlights). In looking at the pictures I posted above, had my CB been quick, he probably would have reached the ball first, or made a tackle resulting in play that would not be considered a highlight.

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 22:28
Well i gave it a try, and i no 1 game is not a big sample size, but none of my goal kicks led my defensive line out of position, moved them forward, or produced the OP's scenario. I play a flat 4-4-2 all are told to stick to position, the CB's are central defenders/defend, my FB's are automatic. Balance/Standard/Man Marking/Stick to Position team instruction, pretty basic and i haven't been burned all season. 9-4-0

Wish i could help.

Your defensive line didnt move during the goal kick? Can you post screen shots please? I am very interested in a solution.

themadsheep2001
08-02-2011, 22:30
But....I play a deep line (as stated several times). 3-4 clicks up from the lowest option. Playing any deeper makes the rest of my tactic go to heck and still doesn't fix the issue. Goal kicks seem to mostly ignore the defensive line settings.

wish i could help. to be honest i play attacking on fluid philosophy so i generally have a high line, and dont get this problem, but in your shot your D-line is incredibly high

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 22:34
wish i could help. to be honest i play attacking on fluid philosophy so i generally have a high line, and dont get this problem, but in your shot your D-line is incredibly high

Do you have fast CBs?

underwater sunlight
08-02-2011, 22:34
@ lonestar:
just a suggestion but why don't you upload some PKM's and a save game to a site like rapidshare for some of the posters in here to have a proper look at should they feel inclined.

lonestar190
08-02-2011, 22:39
@ lonestar:
just a suggestion but why don't you upload some PKM's and a save game to a site like rapidshare for some of the posters in here to have a proper look at should they feel inclined.

Great idea, I'll do that in a few hours.

kingjericho
09-02-2011, 00:42
This is exactly why I tell my Gk to distribute to DR, it helps.

The problem is that when taking goal kicks the GK still kicks the ball upfield half of the times. If you have a tall DM or CM in your team you'll see this happen way too much. I had pre season matches in where I won 5-0 with 3 goals from this situation.

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 09:21
Do you have fast CBs?

not particularly. play with vidic and a slowing down rio ferdinand (think he is 13 for pace and acceleration), though i also have vertonghen and evans (14 and 12, 15 and 14).
The issue in my game was mainly for the AI, and that 1st season, not so much second season probably becuase they fear me and play deeper in general. Would definitely have a look at the pkms when you put them up. If you really do think its a bug, i'd also make sure to put them up ,and your game save in the bugs thread, especially with the final patch coming out anything in the next 5 weeks

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 10:16
milnerpoint does this in every bug thread. Maybe he thinks that his success will be invalidated if it turn out the match engine is full of bugs.

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 11:32
milnerpoint does this in every bug thread. Maybe he thinks that his success will be invalidated if it turn out the match engine is full of bugs.

look if you're not going be helpful with your comments, then just leave it.

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 11:44
Just thinking about this a bit more, what are your full backs set too? It could be that they are pulling your centre backs forward if they are set to be so attacking but the centre backs are set too defensive. As madsheep says, your defensive line is very high looking at it again, they should definitely push up but they seem to be very close to the midfield which is leaving them open to the header back over the top, there is a very small gap and if they are not quick and the centre mid does not win the first ball it definitely would leave you in a lot of trouble. I'd like to see a few matches and see what your defensive line is doing most of the time. I cant see from the pictures but which team are you playing as? Id like to check out the stats of the centre backs your playing.

FrazT
09-02-2011, 11:55
This has been said often before but I will repeat it.

If you feel that there is an obvious flaw in the game's match engine, open a thread in the FM 11 Bugs forum, match engine section and include some pkms for the testers to check. Nobody can really be sure whether it is a bug or not, but the ones that need to know are the SI coders and none of them will be in this thread I suspect.

BossAsianMafia
09-02-2011, 12:05
Have you looked at the number of un-responded issues in the bug forum recently?

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 12:06
Have you looked at the number of un-responded issues in the bug forum recently?

unresponded doesnt mean its not been looked at

BossAsianMafia
09-02-2011, 12:08
unresponded doesnt mean its not been looked at

unresponded means that people think they're being ignored and thus start a thread in a forum which they think things will be read?

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 12:11
i wouldnt say its a case of being ignored, just with the patch coming up i can imagine the SI guys being very busy. They wouldnt have the bugs forum if they were going to ignore bugs threads.

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 12:18
I can understand why people post bugs in the wrong forum.

Often when you post in the bug forum it feels like you are being ignored (even if you aren't). It would be nice if SI people could give a quick response when they have read a thead so we know someone is aware of the problem.

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 12:27
unresponded means that people think they're being ignored and thus start a thread in a forum which they think things will be read?

have you seen how many there are, a lot of which are repeats of what someone has already reported, if they spent all their time replying to each one, they wouldnt get round to fixing the issue raised in the first place

BossAsianMafia
09-02-2011, 12:35
have you seen how many there are, a lot of which are repeats of what someone has already reported, if they spent all their time replying to each one, they wouldnt get round to fixing the issue raised in the first place

Maybe if they conscientiously reply to each one and post a list of bugs being looked at in the bug forum there wouldn't be so many duplicate threads? All ifs and buts I'm afraid.
Oh and maybe they should hire someone to handle customer service full time instead of relying on testers/coders/part-time mods?

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 12:58
have you seen how many there are, a lot of which are repeats of what someone has already reported, if they spent all their time replying to each one, they wouldnt get round to fixing the issue raised in the first place

If they have read it anyway, then why not post a quick reply to say so? It would stop people posting the same thing again because they think nobody at SI is aware of the problem.

Tycobbler39
09-02-2011, 13:13
Ok here goes Goal kick, and my backline relative to the opposition forwards. Note my backline keep their distance in both scenarios
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6448/image1yh.png
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8653/image3vf.png

sample 2 same principle; backline stays relative to opposition forwards
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9247/image4nw.png
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1163/image6w.png

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 13:18
If they have read it anyway, then why not post a quick reply to say so? It would stop people posting the same thing again because they think nobody at SI is aware of the problem.

i just said why previous

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 13:21
Ok here goes Goal kick, and my backline relative to the opposition forwards. Note my backline keep their distance in both scenarios
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6448/image1yh.png
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8653/image3vf.png

sample 2 same principle; backline stays relative to opposition forwards
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9247/image4nw.png
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1163/image6w.png

My backline is similar, I know it's frustrating for the OP, but I just don’t see this issue coming up against me, or against the AI, any long second season. Apart from dropping the D-line, im at a loss, cant say anymore till the OP puts up a PKM

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 13:28
it could also be that the AI is aware your weak at those situations and it is pushing their players forward to catch you out.

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 14:00
i just said why previous

No, you haven't. It takes several minutes to read a thread compared to 30 seconds to give a quick reply.


it could also be that the AI is aware your weak at those situations and it is pushing their players forward to catch you out.

Or it could be a bug.

As several people have pointed out this happens to AI controlled teams as well. It is absurdly unrealistic.

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 14:03
No, you haven't. It takes several minutes to read a thread compared to 30 seconds to give a quick reply.



Or it could be a bug.

As several people have pointed out this happens to AI controlled teams as well. It is absurdly unrealistic.

yes i have. they have scan through, notice it is cloned and leave. whether you like my answer is another thing. but i'd rather talk about helping the OP


the point is we dont know either way that its a bug. hence why he should upload his PKM and game save so the bug testers can look at it

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 14:08
No, you haven't. It takes several minutes to read a thread compared to 30 seconds to give a quick reply.



Or it could be a bug.

As several people have pointed out this happens to AI controlled teams as well. It is absurdly unrealistic.

and as several people have pointed out it doesnt happen to everyone playing which suggest tactics are playing a part, whether its a bug or not is up for SI to decide and act on, but by looking at the thread he has started in the bugs forum i cant see them falling over themselves to look at it in depth.

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 14:12
and as several people have pointed out it doesnt happen to everyone playing which suggest tactics are playing a part, whether its a bug or not is up for SI to decide and act on, but by looking at the thread he has started in the bugs forum i cant see them falling over themselves to look at it in depth.

It doesn't matter whether tactics play a part. The fact that it happens at all makes it a bug.

And it is a bug - anyone who has ever seen a real game of football can see that.

BossAsianMafia
09-02-2011, 14:16
It doesn't matter whether tactics play a part. The fact that it happens at all makes it a bug.

And it is a bug - anyone who has ever seen a real game of football can see that.

Yah milnerpoint you need to understand that for bugs such as these, not everyone has to experience it for it be considered a bug.

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 14:17
It doesn't matter whether tactics play a part. The fact that it happens at all makes it a bug.

And it is a bug - anyone who has ever seen a real game of football can see that.

of course the tactics matter, they are probably the single most important thing in football.
If you are so certain then help out in the bugs thread, upload your PKM's to the server they provide and provide a link to them, the testing guys will have a look and only they will decide if its a bug or not. Posting "its a bug" over and over will not help anyone and will not get anything looked at, actually providing evidence will.

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 14:20
Yah milnerpoint you need to understand that for bugs such as these, not everyone has to experience it for it be considered a bug.

Also people need to understand that it may not be a bug, it may be tactics, people need to keep their mind open to that opinion as well, the SI guys will know better than any of us if this is a bug or not so let them decide, give them the info they need and sit back and wait for their feedback.

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 14:27
Also people need to understand that it may not be a bug, it may be tactics, people need to keep their mind open to that opinion as well, the SI guys will know better than any of us if this is a bug or not so let them decide, give them the info they need and sit back and wait for their feedback.

ffs. Can you honestly not understand that if your tactics cause your players to behave in a completely unrealistic manner it is still a bug?

Surely milnerpoint has to be a troll.

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 14:29
ffs. Can you honestly not understand that if your tactics cause your players to behave in a completely unrealistic manner it is still a bug?

Surely milnerpoint has to be a troll.

the same could be said of you to be honest. WE do not know either way that its a bug, but none of this helps the OP anyway.

So this back and forth gets us nowhere, and will only get the thread closed. OP can you please upload some PKMs, also some screenshots of your tactic, especially the defensive settings for player and team

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 14:32
not if your tactics are set up wrongly for your players. You seem to be ignoring the screen shots above showing the defensive line acting perfectly fine, so there is a chance it could be either a bug or tactics again SI will decide, if its a bug we will hopefully see a fix at the end of the month. There's no need to get aggressive or start calling me a troll because i dont agree with you, if you dont like my posts then you have the option to block me and not read what i have to say.

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 14:36
the same could be said of you to be honest. WE do not know either way that its a bug, but none of this helps the OP anyway.

Of course we know. It is a clear bug as eveyone in this thread except from you and milnerpoint can plainly see.

PjW_JJJ
09-02-2011, 14:36
I posted this on the bugs forum, partly to highlight the previously described problem of goalkeeping hoofs pinging straight back at you (sometimes all the way from the opposition penalty area) right back up the field for a goal threat. “Reverse Route One” I dubbed it. This has been a problem since FM7, possibly earlier.
The main reason for the post was that the reverse route one effect was despite me ALWAYS having the keeper on “defender collect”. This also hasn’t worked properly since I don’t know when. Keepers hoof the ball down the field, despite having defenders wide open under no pressure, despite being under no pressure themselves. FM11 is better than before, the keeper does frequently follow instructions, but not always, and not always for no good reason at all. Off course he’ll hoof it under pressure, with no other option etc.
Combined, these two effects have created bug goals (for both the ai and the human player – but then you don’t know if the AI has “defender collect” ticked) for years. At times, your own keeper effectively becomes one of the AI’s best attackers, gifting the ball time and again, to superhuman clearances followed by inevitable attacks.
I posted this in the bugs forum with uploaded examples to avoid the “it’s your tactics” fanboys and pseudo gurus. I know all about the theories that are supposed to make “defender collect” work (dline and so on), none of them do, and even if they did, if “reverse route one” goals are a problem, then not using the fanboy advice would invalidate every other setup.
Guess what? Firstly, SI mod denied there was a problem and the head went back into the sand. Secondly, a coterie of fanboys and pseudo gurus (including this Milnerpoint berk) chimed in with their “it’s your tactics” guff. Uninvited, unwanted and entirely pointless. They are impossible to avoid.

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 14:37
not if your tactics are set up wrongly for your players. You seem to be ignoring the screen shots above showing the defensive line acting perfectly fine, so there is a chance it could be either a bug or tactics again SI will decide

The fact that there is a workaround doesn't prove that there isn't a bug. Can you really not understand that?

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 14:40
Ok here goes Goal kick, and my backline relative to the opposition forwards. Note my backline keep their distance in both scenarios
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6448/image1yh.png
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8653/image3vf.png

sample 2 same principle; backline stays relative to opposition forwards
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9247/image4nw.png
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1163/image6w.png

ill quote this, it seems to have been missed.

Misodoctakleidist
09-02-2011, 14:42
ill quote this, it seems to have been missed.

You really are troll, aren't you? Nobody can be this stupid.

BossAsianMafia
09-02-2011, 14:43
What I've experienced (both for and against me) is that it doesn't happen at EVERY goal kick.
So I'm not sure your screenshots is conclusive evidence of anything.

her0n
09-02-2011, 14:46
What's the point of this discussion?!

...
It is a bug!
No it isn't.
Yes it is!
No, it's not!
It's a bug!
It's your tactics!
...
...

Will you please stop this? None of you is going to prove anything this way!

There's a thread in the bugs forum (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/253808-Goal-kicks-and-Defensive-Line-Positioning), those of you who consider this a bug should upload their PKMs and post there.
If you provide some proofs, SI will have to acknowledge there's an issue. But you need PKMs (not just screenshots!) to prove that.

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 14:46
What I've experienced (both for and against me) is that it doesn't happen at EVERY goal kick.
So I'm not sure your screenshots is conclusive evidence of anything.

no the screen shots are not really evidence of anything, but they seem to be taken as being right when backing up the OP whereas the shots showing the defensive line working correctly are ignored. So really this thread has proved nothing. The only real proof is PKM's uploaded to the FTP server which SI can analyse anything else is just us speculating so far no one seems to be forthcoming with any so i guess this cant be that big an issue.

Neil Dejyothin
09-02-2011, 15:24
Thanks to everybody for providing feedback on this subject and please accept our apologies for not responding sooner.

First of all we recognise there are some issues here, but it's not really a bug in the Match Engine, it's more to do with being a weakness in the overall design in this area and small changes here can have a fundamental impact elsewhere, which can make balancing the engine problematic.

At this stage, however simple this seems to be on the surface, we are not prepared to risk unbalancing the Match Engine drastically by changing this stuff in Patch 3, but there are some good suggestions here that will help aid us when we re-design some of the AI behind this in the future.

Some of the suggestions made are actually just small steps to solving the actual issue and will require further changes elsewhere and we will consider those when we come to the point that we can re-design this area from the ground up. That re-design and improvements are planned for the future, but we can't commit to when they will be done at this point.

I understand that the answer I've given may not be satisfactory at this point for some of you, but I hope that helps explain things a little more clearly from our perspective. :)

lonestar190
09-02-2011, 15:28
Sorry for not getting the PKMs up last night, the gf wanted to go out and I didn't get home until late. Will do it tonight.

Ty's screenshots are actually quite helpful to me, and I think I may have a new theory on why it is happening to some and not all.

In Ty's screenshots, the backline does move up in the same way as the backline in my screenshots (indicating that is does happen on every goal kick as I believed). However, in Ty's, the opposing striker's also move. It is possible that the AI is setting the strikers against me to be full attacking and thus are waiting until being put offside to move. My current team is expected to finish at the bottom of the table, indicating opposing teams would probably be more aggresive against me.

Still a flaw, but possibly related to opposition tactics rather than the team taking the goal kick.

I may start up 2 managers tonight and see if this is the case.

Thanks for the screenshots Ty, very insightful.

themadsheep2001
09-02-2011, 15:33
Sorry for not getting the PKMs up last night, the gf wanted to go out and I didn't get home until late. Will do it tonight.

Ty's screenshots are actually quite helpful to me, and I think I may have a new theory on why it is happening to some and not all.

In Ty's screenshots, the backline does move up in the same way as the backline in my screenshots (indicating that is does happen on every goal kick as I believed). However, in Ty's, the opposing striker's also move. It is possible that the AI is setting the strikers against me to be full attacking and thus are waiting until being put offside to move. My current team is expected to finish at the bottom of the table, indicating opposing teams would probably be more aggresive against me.

Still a flaw, but possibly related to opposition tactics rather than the team taking the goal kick.

I may start up 2 managers tonight and see if this is the case.

Thanks for the screenshots Ty, very insightful.


your theory makes a lot of sense. not sure how much you can do to combat it, see SI's answer above. but at least you know why it happens.

milnerpoint
09-02-2011, 15:35
yup that would make a lot of sense and would explain why their attack is getting past you if they are on full attack your defence will prob sit in a bit more than they should and you would be getting caught out.

SCIAG
09-02-2011, 18:01
Neil's given a response, and to be honest I don't want this thread descending back into the car crashit was before. Some of you need to realise when there is no argument to be won.

Tycobbler39
09-02-2011, 21:45
You're very welcome. I know it isn't a solution, i wish i had one for you. Good luck! :)

BossAsianMafia
09-02-2011, 23:13
Fair enough Neil, it's not something I can't live with in the meantime.
But I hope that SI can take a long look at some of these issues that have been plaguing the series for years (Board Confidence, Transfer system etc.)
and fix them once and for all.
I'm not sure I can justify to myself buying new versions of FM for incremental changes anymore.

macca72
10-02-2011, 01:35
@ OP....and to get back on topic...

How's about adding a poll to the thread, see if you can gauge the opinion of people in the thread. Possible answers..

1. Happens to me regularly
2. Happens occasionally
3. Can't recall it ever happening

One point to perhaps consider is that it isn't "your tactics", this happens to me fairly often, but the player stats you have. Not wanting to pre-judge your players, but what are the ratings for the following attributes...

Positioning
Anticipation
Decisions

It would be my guess that people who aren't affected by this have defenders with good ratings in the above attributes (Ferdinand was mentioned earlier, Positioning 18, Anticipation 18 & Decisions 14)

tjb2376
12-02-2011, 13:11
What's the point of this discussion?!

...
It is a bug!
No it isn't.
Yes it is!
No, it's not!
It's a bug!
It's your tactics!
...
...

Will you please stop this? None of you is going to prove anything this way!

There's a thread in the bugs forum (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/253808-Goal-kicks-and-Defensive-Line-Positioning), those of you who consider this a bug should upload their PKMs and post there.
If you provide some proofs, SI will have to acknowledge there's an issue. But you need PKMs (not just screenshots!) to prove that.

Fella - who made you king of forum land?!

Discussions are what an online forum is for.

If you're not keen on the discussion that's going on, don't read it or contribute to it.

'Simples', as the meerkat says...

themadsheep2001
12-02-2011, 13:24
Fella - who made you king of forum land?!

Discussions are what an online forum is for.

If you're not keen on the discussion that's going on, don't read it or contribute to it.

'Simples', as the meerkat says...



he has a point, neither side a really discussing anything, and anyway we've had a response from si

her0n
12-02-2011, 19:09
Fella - who made you king of forum land?!

Discussions are what an online forum is for.

If you're not keen on the discussion that's going on, don't read it or contribute to it.

'Simples', as the meerkat says...

Hey, I don't think I deserved that.

I was following this thread as I have experienced the issue myself. However, at some point, the discussion turned into a pointless argument. Can't you see that? Look a few posts back.

Also redirecting you to bugs forum is not being "the king of forum land", it's just stating the obvious. You can complain here or provide some proofs in the bugs section. Simple. Anyway, we now have the official statement from SI which is fair enough.

Arnoldzhu
13-02-2011, 19:18
Thanks to everybody for providing feedback on this subject and please accept our apologies for not responding sooner.

First of all we recognise there are some issues here, but it's not really a bug in the Match Engine, it's more to do with being a weakness in the overall design in this area and small changes here can have a fundamental impact elsewhere, which can make balancing the engine problematic.

At this stage, however simple this seems to be on the surface, we are not prepared to risk unbalancing the Match Engine drastically by changing this stuff in Patch 3, but there are some good suggestions here that will help aid us when we re-design some of the AI behind this in the future.

Some of the suggestions made are actually just small steps to solving the actual issue and will require further changes elsewhere and we will consider those when we come to the point that we can re-design this area from the ground up. That re-design and improvements are planned for the future, but we can't commit to when they will be done at this point.

I understand that the answer I've given may not be satisfactory at this point for some of you, but I hope that helps explain things a little more clearly from our perspective. :)

Nice guy as I can see in Neil. Most of us can understand that. Just a quick suggestion, every year FM is released is autumn and 2 or 3 patches after, the latest patch is usually before March. Then you have like 7 months to develop the next version. Then first patch, bugs, tweaks, second patch, etc. Why not just make the game compatible for previous version's saved games or at least try not to make more bugs/weaknesses in ME every new release. The ME should be consecutive to last edition. ME alone is most important part of this game. You fixe it, improve it, until it's perfect. If you always re-write and re-design the bugs will be inevitable each year.

Arnoldzhu
13-02-2011, 19:21
Hey, I don't think I deserved that.

I was following this thread as I have experienced the issue myself. However, at some point, the discussion turned into a pointless argument. Can't you see that? Look a few posts back.

Also redirecting you to bugs forum is not being "the king of forum land", it's just stating the obvious. You can complain here or provide some proofs in the bugs section. Simple. Anyway, we now have the official statement from SI which is fair enough.

Some issues are so clear cut and obvious that I presume everyone can see that. So why bother to post in bugs section that needs proof considering I'm already p*ssed off and just want to complain, haha.

Arnoldzhu
13-02-2011, 19:26
@ OP....and to get back on topic...

How's about adding a poll to the thread, see if you can gauge the opinion of people in the thread. Possible answers..

1. Happens to me regularly
2. Happens occasionally
3. Can't recall it ever happening

One point to perhaps consider is that it isn't "your tactics", this happens to me fairly often, but the player stats you have. Not wanting to pre-judge your players, but what are the ratings for the following attributes...

Positioning
Anticipation
Decisions

It would be my guess that people who aren't affected by this have defenders with good ratings in the above attributes (Ferdinand was mentioned earlier, Positioning 18, Anticipation 18 & Decisions 14)

Agree on the poll thing.
Stats is from 1-20, if your not playing amateur teams the ability of players shouldn't be a disaster. Position 18 very good, position 13 will make stupid errors? don't think so. the best way to test the ME is to use top teams to see if the situation happens frequently.

LatZee
14-02-2011, 03:32
The key attribute for this is keeper's kicking :P the lower his kicking the shorter distance he'll kick the ball and then more often you'll see this happen. It can be partially avoided by having one of the central defenders on cover, than he has somewhat better chance of stopping it :P

FrazT
14-02-2011, 05:12
Please ,all of you cut out the personal comments

SCIAG
14-02-2011, 17:33
I thought I had already locked this thread.