Need more POWER when it comes to loaning players out

As per the title, I want more power as a top end manager when it comes to loaning my players out. E.g:

1) Ability to insert a clause that player ABC must play at least X number of games for the team he is being loaned to.

2) The ability to talk to a manager/chairman of the club that the player has been loaned to, and show that you are angry at the situation (e.g. I will not loan players to you in future, and have a negative relationship because of it).

The reason I say this is because I had two very good young players sent out on loan. I only accepted loan bids from those clubs who said "the player will be a vital part of the first team", otherwise I would have kept them as backup. After loaning them out at the start of the season, all three of them have only played about 5 games over a period of 8 months. In other words, the bastards lied to me, and have set these players back by not playing them at all (one of them was Lukaku). And I am seething at this, so want to be able to do something (lash out, or at least get my players back).

1) It's not possible for a club to dictate how often their players will play for another team: it's third-party interference, which, as Tevez and West Ham would tell you, is really not allowed.

2) If you're not going to loan players to them again, then just don't. It makes no difference whether there's a button allowing you to tell the AI that. And if you really want to get things started with the manager in question, jsut slag him off in the press.

3) THIS PLAYER CAN BE RECALLED. You can't use this clause if you're receiving a loan fee, but if you're rich enough to buy Lukaku and not play him, I'm assuming that's not an issue for you: slap that clause in, and you can just pull your players out of clubs that are not playing them.

4) Sometimes a club will tell you that someone will be a valuable member of the team, but you've got to remember that the AI pursues several targets at the same time, and is often too stupid to realise that one acquisition makes another redundant: you often see the AI bring in two players for the same position at the same time, and then one of them never plays.

Always have a look at the prospective loan team's squad, to check the loanee's competition, and have a look at their transfer tab, to see if more competition is on its way into the club.

There is no rule to say a loan player must play x amount of games, what if his form is terrible, attitude in training is terrible, maybe doesnt fit into the team like the manager thought, you as the owner of those players should have been keeping a better eye on what was going on at the team and if you werent happy you should have recalled them. I never loan players for a fee and always insert a recall clause for that exact reason, even if a club says the player will be important there are a hundred things that could change that situation, i also have every loan player scouted so i get an update every two weeks or so on a performance, i also check out teams before giving them loan players to see if A my players fit into the team and B if they are better than what the team already has. There is so much more to just offering someone on loan and accepting an offer.

1) It's not possible for a club to dictate how often their players will play for another team

According to wikipedia when Pique was on loan (from Manchester United) at Zaragoza, "The conditions of the loan involved Piqué having to feature in at least 20 games for the Aragonese outfit". So it does happen in real life.

can you find a source outwith the easily edited Wikipedia that shows this?

Look you send players out on loan to get first team experience. Sure it's up to the team. But you should be able to say "Only accept bids where they are 'valuable' to the club" and Reject All Bids that are "Back Up" etc.

I'm sick of putting 15 players up for loan and scrolling through 130 messages of "Will be backup" and the one team that will be "valuable".

Loan players should be able to set to:

Valuable to team

Only top leagues outside country

OR

Lower leauges in same country (Like I don't need my player going to play for the third tier in France)

Expect player to play X amount of games

etc.

And when I set the Loan terms to "Recall Player" and "No Future Bid" I expect that to be upheld. I'm sick of having to go back into the Loan Terms and tick the "No Future Fee set" and can be recalled.

It should be Non-Negotiable.

Loaning players is such a hassle and it shouldn't be. I'm not saying it's not a hassle in real life, but the way it's implemented in the game is so backward.

"No I don't want to send my 17 year old striker labeled the next Dixie Dean to you on loan to be a back up layer and no you can't have him for a future fee of 1.5m" x 20 messages.

Redonkulous.

can you find a source outwith the easily edited Wikipedia that shows this?

Sure, just let me contact Pique's agent and ask him for a copy of the loan contract...

I don't even care about Pique loan, just gave you one example. (I wasn't even looking for this, I just remembered I had read about this a few weeks ago and I thought it would fit here as an example.)

I don't care how they implement it but when I send a player out on loan I need some kind of reassurance that my player will actually get first team appearances.

i'm pretty sure that the pique deal is nothing more than a gentlemans agreement that can not be enforced in any way.

There is no way to enforce that, another team cannot that their player takes priority over one of their own, as you say it may have been an agreement between the clubs but i would very much doubt it was written into a contract, there are far too many things that could affect someones first team appearances.

Fair enough if it's back up etc. But if they say he'll be a valuable player then you should have the right to recall the player if they are not being used.

You can't honestly say that loaning players out within the game is an easy task that doesn't involve reading about 100 messages and filtering them yourself into "back up" and "valuable" then you have to look at each team that want them and go "well I'd prefer not to send to a team in portugal, but I'll send to a german team".

Just looking for an easier way to define parameters of the loan.

Fair enough if it's back up etc. But if they say he'll be a valuable player then you should have the right to recall the player if they are not being used.

You can't honestly say that loaning players out within the game is an easy task that doesn't involve reading about 100 messages and filtering them yourself into "back up" and "valuable" then you have to look at each team that want them and go "well I'd prefer not to send to a team in portugal, but I'll send to a german team".

Just looking for an easier way to define parameters of the loan.

depends which player and where i want him to go, most of my youth go to feeder teams its the easiest way and you can get them back when ever you want, outwith that i only accept valuable status, and yes it can be a pain going through them but its part and parcel with getting the best option for your player. IF you dont ask for a fee you can always recall them, a loan fee for me anyway should never be important i never ever ask for one. wage contribution yes but never a fee.

"THIS PLAYER CAN BE RECALLED. You can't use this clause if you're receiving a loan fee"

Forgive me, but can some kind person let me know where the "recall loan player" button is? I can't see it anywhere.

Many times I take over a new club & would like a loanee (with no fee paid) back to see what he's like; & I've never sussed how to do it.

Help please?

That's all I'm asking. Just want to be able to go Reject All Back Up

"THIS PLAYER CAN BE RECALLED. You can't use this clause if you're receiving a loan fee"

Forgive me, but can some kind person let me know where the "recall loan player" button is? I can't see it anywhere.

Many times I take over a new club & would like a loanee (with no fee paid) back to see what he's like; & I've never sussed how to do it.

Help please?

if its at the start of a game you wont be able to unless they have been programmed that way, loan deals set up in real life dont always follow these rules in the game. Secondly you would have to be aware of the transfer windows, some leagues will not let you recall outwith the free transfer window. The option is under the transfer and contracts tab when the player is away, but again this clause HAS to be there when the loan deal is made if its not there and the club dont pay a fee you cant recall them.

I'm sick of putting 15 players up for loan and scrolling through 130 messages of "Will be backup" and the one team that will be "valuable".

Loan players should be able to set to:

Valuable to team

Only top leagues outside country

OR

Lower leauges in same country (Like I don't need my player going to play for the third tier in France)

Expect player to play X amount of games

etc.

And when I set the Loan terms to "Recall Player" and "No Future Bid" I expect that to be upheld. I'm sick of having to go back into the Loan Terms and tick the "No Future Fee set" and can be recalled.

It should be Non-Negotiable.

Loaning players is such a hassle and it shouldn't be. I'm not saying it's not a hassle in real life, but the way it's implemented in the game is so backward.

"No I don't want to send my 17 year old striker labeled the next Dixie Dean to you on loan to be a back up layer and no you can't have him for a future fee of 1.5m" x 20 messages.

Redonkulous.

This

I always ensure that I have the 'can be recalled' clause and i only loan to teams who claim the player will be a first team regular. Most of the time, if they say they'll be first team regulars, then they will be. although it could take a month or so before they do become regulars.

Thanks for that Milnerpoint!

Questions:

- "The option is under the transfer and contracts tab". Are you saying that if it is possible to recall the player, the option to recall him will appear amongst the options in the drop-down menu here?

- "This clause HAS to be there when the loan deal is made." I am always very careful when I loan players to not eliminate the "may be recalled" option; indeed, in the initial set-up I make sure the Assistant Manager doesn't eliminate this option. As far as I can see you have to make an effort to NOT allow player to be recalled. Anyway, I have never seen the "recall loan player" option appear.

Will make sure next loan is done right!

Thnx again!

Look you send players out on loan to get first team experience. Sure it's up to the team. But you should be able to say "Only accept bids where they are 'valuable' to the club" and Reject All Bids that are "Back Up" etc.

I'm sick of putting 15 players up for loan and scrolling through 130 messages of "Will be backup" and the one team that will be "valuable".

Loan players should be able to set to:

Valuable to team

Only top leagues outside country

OR

Lower leauges in same country (Like I don't need my player going to play for the third tier in France)

Expect player to play X amount of games

etc.

And when I set the Loan terms to "Recall Player" and "No Future Bid" I expect that to be upheld. I'm sick of having to go back into the Loan Terms and tick the "No Future Fee set" and can be recalled.

It should be Non-Negotiable.

Loaning players is such a hassle and it shouldn't be. I'm not saying it's not a hassle in real life, but the way it's implemented in the game is so backward.

"No I don't want to send my 17 year old striker labeled the next Dixie Dean to you on loan to be a back up layer and no you can't have him for a future fee of 1.5m" x 20 messages.

Redonkulous.

This x2

This is my biggest gripe with the game and it needs a massive overhaul. Actually I dont think it would be that massive to do. Its only offering a player out with certain criteria and teams that want to match that criteria only apply. Or even keep the existing system of getting hundreds of offers you dont want but make it easier to filter out the ones you want to reject and automatically reject them, then your onyl left with the loans you want to accept.

I also think you should be able to select which league you want to target to send your player on loan to. I dont want offers for my top prospect coming from league 2. I should be able to offer my player to Championship clubs only. How hard would that be to implement? Or again, make it easier to filter out the offers you dont want.

So please SI, cut out all the fluff and gimmicks for FM12. Actually fix what is wrong with the existing setup to make the actuall gameplay better rather than adding new features which either bug the game to hell and take 9 months and various patches to fix or add something new which can be turned off anyway. Whats the point? Concentrate on improving areas of the game that NEED improving. Not adding more gimmicks to go on the back of the box.

1) It's not possible for a club to dictate how often their players will play for another team: it's third-party interference, which, as Tevez and West Ham would tell you, is really not allowed.

Not really, because the third-party in theTévez-West Ham affair was indeed a third-party - Kia Joorabchian and/or his associates/company. This is a contract between two clubs.

So if I wanted to put a contract in stating that a player cannot play during a full moon, I can put that in. It probably would look silly, but I can put this in.

Likewise look at Cup competition clauses - you can bar a player from getting cup-tied. Legitimate. It will of course affect the loan fee/wage percentage paid, of course.

So please SI, cut out all the fluff and gimmicks for FM12. Actually fix what is wrong with the existing setup to make the actuall gameplay better rather than adding new features which either bug the game to hell and take 9 months and various patches to fix or add something new which can be turned off anyway. Whats the point? Concentrate on improving areas of the game that NEED improving. Not adding more gimmicks to go on the back of the box.

Oh this - so freaking much!!

Actually fix what's wrong with the game and add new features.

They should really set up a department to work on the annoying long winded non-sensical things within the game and fixes for them.

I like the idea of setting some loan conditions, and being able to have some way to affect relationships in game. If I loan a player with the caveat that he needs to feature regularly in the first team (please make it so, SI) then I expect it to be honored. For those that say the needs of the club come first, fair enough, but I know from personal experience that in North American pro hockey, players that get assigned to a lower league club (analogous to a loan situation) are expected to be played quality minutes at the risk of destroying the relationship between clubs.

It might be nice at some point down the road to have a 'loan reputation' for each manager too, so you can see who is trustworthy in this regard. Just an idea, but either way, second the idea of some changes to the current setup.

Thanks for that Milnerpoint!

Questions:

- "The option is under the transfer and contracts tab". Are you saying that if it is possible to recall the player, the option to recall him will appear amongst the options in the drop-down menu here?

- "This clause HAS to be there when the loan deal is made." I am always very careful when I loan players to not eliminate the "may be recalled" option; indeed, in the initial set-up I make sure the Assistant Manager doesn't eliminate this option. As far as I can see you have to make an effort to NOT allow player to be recalled. Anyway, I have never seen the "recall loan player" option appear.

Will make sure next loan is done right!

Thnx again!

yes on the drop down menu the option if you have it at the time will appear, if its not there you can't recall the player at that time or at all depending on the things i mentioned before.

Well yes it would be an effort to have this installed as the team wanting the player will not really want to lose said player if they are playing him in their first team so its only natural for them not to offer this first time, if i am loaning players into my club i never put that option i want to control the player staying or leaving for the season but as i say loaning them out doesnt happen without this clause, no exceptions.

The new conversation module would be perfect for this for the people that wanted to go into that much detail.

I don't see the problem with SI including a screen that lets you talk to the manager of the other team that you can set up these Gentleman's agreements and you would then be able to ascertain the exact impact that he feels that your player would make to his team.

This could then impact on the relationships between managers and see certain managers applying for loan players from certain clubs. As with Fergie and his son.

This would also improve personalties within the game and could improve the relationships between managers.

The new conversation module would be perfect for this for the people that wanted to go into that much detail.

I don't see the problem with SI including a screen that lets you talk to the manager of the other team that you can set up these Gentleman's agreement and you would then be able to ascertain the exact impact that he feels that your player would make to his team.

This would also improve personalties within the game and could improve the relationships between managers.

now that is a good idea!

Wasnt Tom Cleverley only allowed to go to Wigan because Fergie was promised that he would get regular games, otherwise he would have stayed with us. It definately goes on.

or alternatively you could look at the team who are trying to sign your player and use a bit of common sense.

lets just say i have a M/AMC i want to loan out. club A make an offer but they have 7 players who play in this position who look better than your player.

club B make an offer to loan your player. they don't have many players who can fill that role and their usual tactics do not utilise that position (wingers, defensive midfielders etc...)

club C make an offer. they are not an amazing team and your player would improve their squad. they play a formation that would utilise your player.

where would you send him?

although talking to the manager of the club who puts in the offer to try and forge a gentlemans agreement is in theory a good idea, the line between a gentlemans agreement and third party interferace is too fine for it to be included in my opinion as it would possible border on corruption.

or alternatively you could look at the team who are trying to sign your player and use a bit of common sense.

lets just say i have a M/AMC i want to loan out. club A make an offer but they have 7 players who play in this position who look better than your player.

club B make an offer to loan your player. they don't have many players who can fill that role and their usual tactics do not utilise that position (wingers, defensive midfielders etc...)

club C make an offer. they are not an amazing team and your player would improve their squad. they play a formation that would utilise your player.

where would you send him?

although talking to the manager of the club who puts in the offer to try and forge a gentlemans agreement is in theory a good idea, the line between a gentlemans agreement and third party interferace is too fine for it to be included in my opinion as it would possible border on corruption.

There IS no third-party interference! Who is the third party? There isn't one! It's a contract between two clubs - two parties.

3) THIS PLAYER CAN BE RECALLED. You can't use this clause if you're receiving a loan fee, but if you're rich enough to buy Lukaku and not play him, I'm assuming that's not an issue for you: slap that clause in, and you can just pull your players out of clubs that are not playing them.

WHS...

I always use this clause for exactly the reasons that the OP is unhappy. It's there, use it.

There IS no third-party interference! Who is the third party? There isn't one! It's a contract between two clubs - two parties.

The loaning club is the third party. The loanee club is 1 party, the player is the second.

In a sale the selling club sells its rights to the buying club, in a loan agreement, beyond set limits, the loaning club is not allowed to interfere with the loaned-to club otherwise it is acting as a third party. Therefore you can agree all the clauses you want before a player is loaned, but once he has been loaned you cannot interfere.

Therefore to agree that the player plays in X matches would count as interferance and would be illegal under the premier league rules, other countries, I have no idea.

The loaning club is the third party. The loanee club is 1 party, the player is the second.

In a sale the selling club sells its rights to the buying club, in a loan agreement, beyond set limits, the loaning club is not allowed to interfere with the loaned-to club otherwise it is acting as a third party. Therefore you can agree all the clauses you want before a player is loaned, but once he has been loaned you cannot interfere.

Therefore to agree that the player plays in X matches would count as interferance and would be illegal under the premier league rules, other countries, I have no idea.

No. The contract/agreement is between the two clubs involved. The only thing the player needs to agree to is the loan in the first place. The details of that loan are between the clubs alone.

No. The contract/agreement is between the two clubs involved. The only thing the player needs to agree to is the loan in the first place. The details of that loan are between the clubs alone.

In which case Tevez 'loan' deal would have been legal. It wasnt.

The player has exactly the same rights in a loan as in a sale deal, that does not change.

In which case Tevez 'loan' deal would have been legal. It wasnt.

The player has exactly the same rights in a loan as in a sale deal, that does not change.

Tévez's loan was "illegal" because MSI were found to have partially-owned Tévez and did not disclose it - and the Premier League fined them (and Neil Warnock shouted a lot), and the Premier League barred third-party investment.

The "third-party" in this case was MSI. MSI only dealt with player rights, not club transfers.

The issue was the fact that West Ham failed to disclose a third-party ownership deal - MSI - West Ham and MSI "co-owned" West Ham in some way (possibly by a loan agreement from MSI to West Ham).

Hence the Premier League ordering that all deals be 100%-owned by clubs - no third-party ownership.

The issue was failure to disclose more than anything - the actual third-party ownership was dodgy, but not the killer part.

The OP, however, describes a case where a club-club loan has restrictions. There is no third-party in this club-club loan - there's one club, and another club.

Nothing in the Premier League regulations says that a club can't place restrictions on the loan: http://www.premierleague.com/staticFiles/7a/20/0,,12306~139386,00.pdf (they call them "temporary transfers")

The only restriction they need to abide by is the fact that the loanee cannot play against his parent club.

To me, this says that I can stick any loan clause I want and if the other team accepts, they will have to abide by it.

Let's not forget that the parent club owns the player - the loaning club can't sell the player on, for example - and just like housing loans have convenants and car loans have requirements, so can player loans.

Sure, just let me contact Pique's agent and ask him for a copy of the loan contract...

I don't even care about Pique loan, just gave you one example. (I wasn't even looking for this, I just remembered I had read about this a few weeks ago and I thought it would fit here as an example.)

I don't care how they implement it but when I send a player out on loan I need some kind of reassurance that my player will actually get first team appearances.

Unsourced quote off wikipedia (as wikipedia are very bad at letting through lies at times) is not proof. Unless you can furnish a reputable source which can give a direct quote from either end (i.e. Zaragoza or Man Utd) then don't post something as proof and expect not to be laughed at, hard.

@Milnerpoint "outwith"? That word is making me a very confused panda.

Wasnt Tom Cleverley only allowed to go to Wigan because Fergie was promised that he would get regular games, otherwise he would have stayed with us. It definately goes on.

And it goes on in the game, too- the teams declare how much the player would pay. Much like Cleverley, you can't do much once they don't get games.

I think the "offer to loan" system does need a re-vamp. We should be able to specify the leagues we'd like to offer to, and the squad status. I'm surprised those aren't in already, tbh, they've been needed for a long time.

@Milnerpoint "outwith"? That word is making me a very confused panda.

Outwith is a Scottish dialect word meaning 'beyond' or 'outside of'. I understand your confusion though, I was pretty baffled the first time I encountered it!

Outwith is a Scottish dialect word meaning 'beyond' or 'outside of'. I understand your confusion though, I was pretty baffled the first time I encountered it!

Did Ter write that dialog bit?

Apparently Sunderland are getting Muntari on loan from Internazionale Milano, and one of the clauses in the agreement is that if he plays over x amount of games, they must sign him.

I read it on some Italian football website earlier, via a Sunderland forum. Not sure if that's a gentleman's agreement or something signed in the contract. Or complete and utter rubbish.

But what i was suggesting was even though the loan is agreed between two clubs, you would be talking to the manager, that would be a private conversation between people and not to do with the loan terms.

That way the loaner would be able to see exactly how the manager intends to use the player. Maybe make it conditional on the manager relationship between each other. Much like fergie and his son. Fergie loans players to his sons clubs. The club then removed him as manager and fergie recalled as many as he could. This says to me that even though the contract was between clubs. The real contract was between the managers.

The same with Cleverley this and wiltshire last year both Fergie and Wenger sent there players to a club and knew that they would get first team football as they both mentioned it in press conferences. In fact fergie has also sent Macheda out on loan and mentioned in the press that he would go where he would be garenteed the maxim amount of game time. How would he know that he would get it unless he had spoken to the manager and asked him how he intended to use the player.

This has to be put in the game as we see it going on all the time in the real world!

I agree with the idea of setting parameters for loans. After that set, you could put any clauses you want as stated here before.

The chat between managers it's interesting, but think of having to chat 140 managers because you want to loan 20 players, that would be a pain.

In the parameters there should be a butto with no future price because it's really annoying to repeat the process of taking it out 100 times.

I would like to be able to offer to loan out a player and set "must be regarded a valuable member of the first team" so that I don't have to search through lots of different loan offers to see which are regarded as "valuable". I'd also like to see more information on squad status, instead of just either valuable or backup. What about rotation or impact sub?

Apparently Sunderland are getting Muntari on loan from Internazionale Milano, and one of the clauses in the agreement is that if he plays over x amount of games, they must sign him.

I read it on some Italian football website earlier, via a Sunderland forum. Not sure if that's a gentleman's agreement or something signed in the contract. Or complete and utter rubbish.

that is part of a loan to buy agreement which will be contractually enforced.

it doesn't mean that sunderland have to play muntari. it just means if he plays enough, he triggers the clause, similar to contract extension clauses that some players have in their contracts

Here look, some players who sign youth contracts have it written into their contract that they start at least 5 games a season, or play at least 5 first team games a season.

I know a fella that played at arsenal that had this in his contract, he was brought on with 10 minutes left and things like that.

It can be written into the contract. As long as it's legal activity it can be in the contract. You can't write into a contract the player will be a drug mule between the two clubs, because that's illegal and not a binding contract. But you can write into a contract "This player will play x amount of games or x amount of minutes" That is legally binding and nothing illegal about it.

Contract law doesn't change just because you're a footballer.

Here look, some players who sign youth contracts have it written into their contract that they start at least 5 games a season, or play at least 5 first team games a season..

1) Sorry, I dont beleive that and I will explain why below.

2) Even if that is by some strange chance true, then that still doesnt work across loan deals because you are dictating to the loanee-club the team that they must pick, and thus that would be third party interferance and wouldnt be allowed.

And the reason why Im certain that wouldnt be in a young players contract is that there is no way you could garantee it. What happens if he was injured all year? What happens if you NEED to win the last 5 games and he hasnt played all year - it simply wouldnt work. UNLESS there is also a clause in the contract that says if he fails to play in 5 games that year he would be financially compensated instead.

I know it's true. I know a few people that play professional football.

If I give a player on loan to a club that they say will be a valuable member of the team I have every right to dictate how many games they will play. Else the club can say "will be used as back up".

The player I know had glandular fever and didn't play football for about 2 years between 17 and 19. But his contract said he had to play at least 5 first team games. And he did.

I know this happens in real life.

Here look, some players who sign youth contracts have it written into their contract that they start at least 5 games a season, or play at least 5 first team games a season.

I know a fella that played at arsenal that had this in his contract, he was brought on with 10 minutes left and things like that.

It can be written into the contract. As long as it's legal activity it can be in the contract. You can't write into a contract the player will be a drug mule between the two clubs, because that's illegal and not a binding contract. But you can write into a contract "This player will play x amount of games or x amount of minutes" That is legally binding and nothing illegal about it.

Contract law doesn't change just because you're a footballer.

can this be proved anywhere because it sounds completely fabricated

i can actually believe the games things being built into a contact but that is between player and club, much like an apperance fee is, however i refuse to believe it is legal for another team to loan a player and demand he plays a certain amount of games no matter what, that would be another team enforcing a team selection on another and there is no way that is legal.

can this be proved anywhere because it sounds completely fabricated

Well I'm telling you what I know. And you just call me a liar. Fantastic.

Frankly, I don't care if you believe me. I know it's true.

The player I know had glandular fever and didn't play football for about 2 years between 17 and 19. But his contract said he had to play at least 5 first team games. And he did.

I know this happens in real life.

Im sorry, this is an instance of 'proof or retract.'

You cant simply throw around things like that and explain it away as 'I know people...'

Sorry I'll just go their contract now and show you?

I don't need to give you proof. If you want proof go find it yourself. I'm not your lacky.

What happens if a player gets injured and its physically unable to play the agreed amount of games?

x42bn6 linked to Premier League Rules above, where it quite clearly states that a "Temporary Transfer" (aka a loan) is subject to conditions, including

7.8 any other conditions agreed between the Transferor Club and the Transferee Club or, in the exercise of its discretion, imposed by the Board.

I would assume that there would be provisions governing what happens in the case of injury/other unforeseen circumstances/force majeur.