Would using genie scout ONLY ON YOUR OWN TEAM be cheating? I think not...

Using genie scout to scout prospects and unscouted players is obviously pretty shifty, but wouldn't it be realistic to use it EXCLUSIVELY on your own squad? After all, as the manager, when it comes to your own team you have a much more detailed knowledge of your players (from watching games, training, staff reports etc) so isn't the star system a bit too vague to be realistic?

What I'm saying is that it doesn't really make sense to have to rely on the exact same 1-5 star rating system for scouting AND for assessing the skill of players on your own team, for instance I have two players both rated at 3 stars CA, with one actually having about 20pts higher! Wouldn't a real manager have a much better and deeper understanding of how his players stack up against each other?

Please help me justify my genie scout use

use it if you want, if it doesnt taint your success then surely noone elses opnion really matters

There is no justification. In real life judgements about players are all subjective. You might think your 15 year old Seamus Coleman will become the white Cafu someone else in the club might not. Knowing their precise potential as a number on a scale is completely ridiculous as you do what a mate of mine does and release 9/10ths of his youth squad immediately after they are generated because they don't have a high enough PA (150+ he wants). It's definitely cheating.

One thing that could make it easier is maybe for your own players your coaches and scouts could estimate what the fully developed player might look like. I've used FM Scout in FM10 and the ability to see what they might look like at full potential is a great tool. Something similar could be useful on your own players as like you mention the star system is far too vague.

use it if you want, if it doesnt taint your success then surely noone elses opnion really matters

Yes I know, but I am asking whether it would be REALISTIC or not. I think we generally agree that using it on potential signing and unscouted players is unrealistic, so I'm just asking for people's arguments as to whether using it on your own guys is realistic or not.

There is no justification. In real life judgements about players are all subjective. You might think your 15 year old Seamus Coleman will become the white Cafu someone else in the club might not. Knowing their precise potential as a number on a scale is completely ridiculous as you do what a mate of mine does and release 9/10ths of his youth squad immediately after they are generated because they don't have a high enough PA (150+ he wants). It's definitely cheating.

One thing that could make it easier is maybe for your own players your coaches and scouts could estimate what the fully developed player might look like. I've used FM Scout in FM10 and the ability to see what they might look like at full potential is a great tool. Something similar could be useful on your own players as like you mention the star system is far too vague.

Is this not the same thing basically, as you are seeing what they look like at max pot instead of just seeing their pa, or have i misunderstood what you were getting at? did it also not show the ca/pa on fm scout?

It sounds like you are assuming real life managers know EVERYTHING about their players. This is not true.

In fact, I think just by being able to view your players attributes you have an advantage over real life managers. You then want to take this a step further and you don't think it's cheating?

If you've got to ask for justification then I think you know the answer...

Yes I know, but I am asking whether it would be REALISTIC or not. I think we generally agree that using it on potential signing and unscouted players is unrealistic, so I'm just asking for people's arguments as to whether using it on your own guys is realistic or not.

imo its not realistic, the star system provides a general look at ca/pa based on your team. by looking at training developement etc i think this is enough to judge palyers

There is no justification. In real life judgements about players are all subjective. You might think your 15 year old Seamus Coleman will become the white Cafu someone else in the club might not. Knowing their precise potential as a number on a scale is completely ridiculous as you do what a mate of mine does and release 9/10ths of his youth squad immediately after they are generated because they don't have a high enough PA (150+ he wants). It's definitely cheating.

One thing that could make it easier is maybe for your own players your coaches and scouts could estimate what the fully developed player might look like. I've used FM Scout in FM10 and the ability to see what they might look like at full potential is a great tool. Something similar could be useful on your own players as like you mention the star system is far too vague.

Yeah, I guess genie scout does give you much too exact figures, but if I had to choose I'd still say that that makes more sense for assessing your own players than a 1-5 star system. I mean come on. When fergie thinks about rooney does he come up with a star rating out of 5? No, he obviously has a much better idea of his skill. But you make a good point.

Fm scout eh? I'll check it out. I take it that its a reasonable middle grounds between the star system and genie scout?

Obviously, it's between you and your FM conscience. That goes without saying.

Personally, yes, I would feel my save was "contaminated" and have to give up. It's giving you information that you're not supposed to have. It's no different from looking up hidden attributes like injury proneness.

Well I never really understand these "moral" questions people have and especially the people who criticise others. I mean just do whatever you think will make the game more fun, it is after all a game that is supposed to be fun.

its your game do what you want with it, if you want to use Genie scout do it, dont ask permission on here!!

If Alex Ferguson, Kenny Dalglish, Carlo Ancelotti , Arsene Wenger et al could use a real life Genie Scout, does anyone really believe they wouldn't!!!. Just witness this weeks signing of Darren Bent from Sunderland to Aston Villa. Bent puts a transfer request in on Sunday and the deal is concluded and finalised on Wednesday with an unwilling selling club, anyone who believes that Bent wasn't tapped up is extremely naive. Of course cheating goes on in real life and all the people here who profess that you are a lesser manager for using Genie Scout etc are not living in the real world. Your objective as a manager is to do the best for "your" club and to use all means at your disposal in order to achieve this. There is a lot of truth in the saying, "nice guys finish last" and anyone who takes that sort of attitude into your real life career will pretty soon find it out for their selves.

Obviously, it's between you and your FM conscience. That goes without saying.

Personally, yes, I would feel my save was "contaminated" and have to give up. It's giving you information that you're not supposed to have. It's no different from looking up hidden attributes like injury proneness.

that's exactly the same info you shouldn't have

Fm scout eh? I'll check it out. I take it that its a reasonable middle grounds between the star system and genie scout?

iirc its not , gives the same info and more

i think any manager in a job would have some ability to effectively rate their own players.

You have no such tool in the game, you have ASSISTANT REPORTS and SCOUT REPORTS. But you have no cognitive ability within the game to rate a player yourself!

it's ridiculous. Of course a manager would be able to recognise talent in players! And who's good and who's not. Sure the assistant and scout reports help. But within the game you should have a relative gauge based on past experiences and choices as to whether a player will be good or not.

Ferguson didn't pick Roy Keane out of Ass Man and Scout Reports - he looked at him too and said "hmmm I like him"

What I'm saying is the game should recognise your ability to sign tallent. At the start your own rating for players should show "current ability" "1 star" - "potential 5 stars*

Because you have no other frame of reference for players. Then given your record in the transfer market on buying/selling players who become stars/flops those ratings should become clearer. So when you're 20 seasons into the game and your Ass Mand Scouts reports a player to be 4 stars you can go view the player, then your own report sums up his stats based on your track record.

So for instance you could build up your rep at a start of a game for signing potentially good youngsters by signing Neymar, Henrique, Pastore, Babacar etc. in the first few seasons. Then when you view youth players you should be able to see similar traits (or "star ratings") on these players.

I know it's a tad complex. But that's how I see it.

But yes using Fm Genie Scout to view your players stats is of course cheating. Unless you can hide the column for potential ratings and go by the current? Because a manager should definitely be able to see a players Current ability - not just scout and ass man reports on the player!!!

In real life, there are in my mind 3 factors to make an estimate of the potential of a player:

1) actual skill and age: A young player that is very good will have more time to improve than a young player with less skill. Both these things are accessible to you in the game.

2) Personality: A youngster that is willing to learn will have a brighter future than a lazy sod. In the game this is represented by the personality stats, of which only determination is available for you to see and the rest is included in a vague personality description. I don't really understand why you can't tell if a player has a professionality rating of 7 or 14, I feel the personality system is way too vague to be realistic, but we have to work with what we've got. There's also a thread out there somewhere with a list of all personalities and their corresponding attributes.

3) Improvement: A player who shows real improvement from year to year is likely to have more potential. A big improvement in skill is usually an indicator that there is some headroom. This isn't readily available to you in the game (although in my mind it would be a nice addition) but if you make screenshots of your prospects at the beginning of each year, you'll get an idea of who has improved a lot (big PA/CA gap) and who hasn't (CA = PA). This means you should give them chances to improve though.

If you use these three indicators and the star system, I feel it gives you a fairly realistic image of how good a player will be. It isn't fool proof, but then again, neither is real life.

So to answer your question: Is it cheating? I think it is. You have enough information at your disposal to make estimated guesses not to need a 3rd party program. Making these guesses is more work though.

This brings us to the next question: Is it allowed? Although it is technically cheating, it is also a game and noone is going to punish you for playing it in the way you get the most fun out of it. If you feel your game would be more fun if you knew the PA of each of your players, by all means go ahead.

Edit: The only problem with the game vs reality is that you have no history on newly generated players, while a manager in real life can track a youngsters improvements from when he was a baby. Then again you get the star system which does give you a decent indication about the players abilities.

And to anwser to the above post: the problem in the game is not how you are unable to judge player's abilities, it's how you AM and scouts are so much better at it than you (yes, because they cheat ). The fact that scout reports are seemingly generated within seconds might make you think that judging a players ability should be easy when in fact it is a very difficult and time-consuming process.

Is this not the same thing basically, as you are seeing what they look like at max pot instead of just seeing their pa, or have i misunderstood what you were getting at? did it also not show the ca/pa on fm scout?

I meant Genie scout. I've not used FM Scout, if that even exists.

I don't mean that it should show you the exact 'highest level' potential future stats. But possibly the coach's/scout's best guess (Influence by the judging player potential category). It would be useful as you could then judge in which areas the player would likely be strong. I have the problem where a lot of the regens I get have pretty good star ratings, like 3.5 or 4 but almost every stat they have is below 10, so it's not possible to even see what kind of player they might be.

It's cheating. You're still seeing hidden parts of the game that you aren't supposed to be seeing.

I think it would also spoil your fun too.

Busngabb, yr there us/was a program that let you see how a player might develops at their pa, I thought you may have been speaking of that, can't remember its name fm scout rang a bell Thi

I think it's only relevant if you yourself think it's cheating or not, what other people think doesn't matter. You play the game alone, and if you think it's more fun to use a genie scout on your own squad then I can't see any problems. I wouldn't use it myself, but that's a different story.

Yes, but I don't think it's as cheating as much as everyone suggests.

Some of the hidden attributes I would argue don't need to be hidden. For example, personality - this should not be (fully-) hidden. A manager should know his players' personalities - perhaps over time he will know more, but he should know something. The implication of it being hidden is that a manager knows nothing beyond scouting reports and the personality field - which is silly how a scout knows more about you own players' personalities when his concern is looking at new players!

Another field is PA, which again I would argue shouldn't be fully hidden - a manager knows roughly how talented a player is and can make his own decision. The star ratings and scout reports are not his own ability to rate a player!

Other fields, like relationship fields, again don't really need to be hidden - you know Roy Keane and Alf-Inge Håland don't like each other - but the game provides no indication of this (if they were still in the game, you might deduce this, but only after they start verbally sparring with each other).

So is it cheating? Yes, but then again, I would also argue that Genie Scout provides you with a mechanism to know your squad as well as a manager may do in real-life.

Yes, there is not enough information to go on currently with players and the scouting system.

The manager should have their own "star rating" on players. And as you get better/worse at the game your ability to "star rate" players increases or decreases accordingly.

If I buy a 16 year old kid for €22m and he amounts to nothing then my ability to judge young players decreases, therefore when looking at youth players the star rating of my own judgment on players should change also.

In real life, how does the manager or coaching set up determine potential? Firstly, current ability and age - a talented player at a young age, is generally considered to have high potential. Secondly, performance. Ability dictates a lot, but being able to translate it into a good performance in a competitive environment is a strong indicator to a players potential. Finally, rate of progression. A player who improves considerably over a short period of time, is generally considered to have high potential.

If, in real life, 3 players turned up in a youth team, the same age, very similar attributes and personalities, you wouldn't be able to tell which players would progress to senior level and who would fall by the wayside. In FM, however, we can. This is, in essence, why the potential ability reports are unrealistic, let alone the use of a 3rd party scouting programme.

Whilst it wont affect who you buy, it could definitely impact on who you decide to sell. You might have been perfectly happy with a player in your squad, then see that his PA is lower than you thought, and a little seed of doubt appears as to whether hes good enough or not. So sorry, I cant justify it for you!

not realistic at all

Is it 'cheating'?

No.

You cant cheat unless you actively change the game (Eg FMRTE).

If you compare this to 'cheats' in other games then it is more like having the players walk through guide, wheras FMRTE is the 'Invunerable' cheat that finally let me finish Quake II... (god im old!)

I used it for 3 years between FM05 and FM08 and it really spoilt the game for me. This year has been great so far without it and I wouldnt go back!

Nothing is cheating in FM. It's not that sort of game. The point of it is to have a fun experience.

Nothing is cheating in FM. It's not that sort of game. The point of it is to have a fun experience.

I would agree with that to an extent, but if people use outside-of-the-game enhancements, I don't want to read about it here on the boards, nor have them start threads about amazing players when 100 posts down we find out they "cheated" in some way to get them. I prefer to read about, and compare my playing experience to, players who use an unmodified game (aside from skins/player pictures, obviously).

Absolutely not, the tool is essential to make up the deficiencies in the scouting section of the game. Personalities of players should be freely available and not hidden. Do you need a scout to tell you Balotelli is a outspoken fellow with is confrontational and lacks loyalty to the club? It is hard to tell much from the useless one word adjective to describe the personality of the player.

Of course it's cheating in terms of cheating on a video game.

You may or may not be cheating yourself but only you can tell us that.

Absolutely not, the tool is essential to make up the deficiencies in the scouting section of the game. Personalities of players should be freely available and not hidden. Do you need a scout to tell you Balotelli is a outspoken fellow with is confrontational and lacks loyalty to the club? It is hard to tell much from the useless one word adjective to describe the personality of the player.

I dont mean to be funny - but the game already tells you all of that and more.

Ballitotelis personal page in the game says:

Outspoken

Volatile

Confrontational

And it also mentions that he is ambitious

And my scout report says he is:

Selfish

Enjoys big matches

Would need to do a lot of adapting to fit into my team

Im sorry - but WHY do you need geni scout?

Absolutely not, the tool is essential to make up the deficiencies in the scouting section of the game. Personalities of players should be freely available and not hidden. Do you need a scout to tell you Balotelli is a outspoken fellow with is confrontational and lacks loyalty to the club? It is hard to tell much from the useless one word adjective to describe the personality of the player.

but you can tell he is outspoken from day one that "useless one word adjective" is anything but what you have described it, you can also tell he is not hard working or a team player all things we know instantly about him, what you have to find out is how he reacts to different situations and converstations, something you cannot tell until you get to know the person, no manager has a magic ball that tells him everything about every aspect of a player before he buys them.

I dont mean to be funny - but the game already tells you all of that and more.

Ballitotelis personal page in the game says:

Outspoken

Volatile

Confrontational

And it also mentions that he is ambitious

And my scout report says he is:

Selfish

Enjoys big matches

Would need to do a lot of adapting to fit into my team

Im sorry - but WHY do you need geni scout?

stop doing that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahaha

stop doing that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahaha

Im sorry that you work harder than me.

Dont worry, when business picks up next month I will be rushed off my feet and you will be able to get their first.

Checking out CA to see if a player is "good" is just a waste of time, all that matters is whether they perform on the pitch. I've had a player in a Premier League team on a previous version whose CA/PA was 90 - yes, ninety!!! and he rocked. My vice captain on FM2006 had a PA of about 150 - by no means terrible, but not the best player ever. But he was incredibly consistent, had all the right attributes in the right areas, came up good in important games, never complained etc. etc. Of course all my coaches thought he was rubbish and wanted to sell him, but that's what happens if you just go by CA - you play like the AI, which plays badly.

The game also provides you with more than enough clues as to roughly how good a player is likely to get. You really don't need to check out PA, after a year or two you should have a pretty good idea which players have potential and which don't Maybe not exactly how much potential on a scale of 0-200, but definitely an idea as to whether they're worth it or not. I've always been able to tell when a player has peaked in his development, and there are generally a few tell tale clues as to whether a player has potential or not, even without any reports.

That said, there can be good reasons to want to look at some of the hidden numbers. In particular, I have looked at how training etc. impacts on player development so as to figure out roughly how this part of the game works. In this context, CA is important. I've also used FM Scout to generate excel sheets to track player development, as I find it annoying that you can only see the last 12 months in game.

What you really would want to see if you were "cheating" would be the hidden mental attributes of the players. Sure, some of them are easy to pick up on - some players are obviously dirty, some are obviously unsporting etc. and behave accordingly in games. But it's not always easy to figure out how high or low these attributes are. How loyal is player X? Hard to know, until someone comes in with an offer, unless he's mentioned as being loyal in reports or as a peronality trait.

----------

At any rate, I can't see how you can justify using Genie Scout based on your post. Pick a youngish player in the EPL today, and tell me right now exactly how good he will be in 5 years time. I bet you'll be wrong (and that's why these players have variable PAs in the database, as no one knows). So why should you, of all people, know this information?

And what's so wrong with your coach and coach/scout reports? They're not useless at all, you just need good staff and to take everything with a pinch of salt. Can't you tell that your 16 year old with loads of rapidly rising attributes and who performs well for the first team has potential? If you think you need to know the exact CA and PA to be a better player of FM, you really need to learn to play better (tongue in check)

But if you don't care, check the hidden numbers - it's up to you how you play. And looking at some of the inner workings can also help you understand the game better, so it doesn't have to be a crutch. Just don't try and justify it as something it isn't...

Obviously its not really realistic, but because we cant really watch a player like we could in real life, unless you want to spend 90 minutes with your sole focus on one player, I wouldn't consider it as cheating, but only if it's in your own team as you say.

I still wouldn't use it though.

I dont mean to be funny - but the game already tells you all of that and more.

Ballitotelis personal page in the game says:

Outspoken

Volatile

Confrontational

And it also mentions that he is ambitious

And my scout report says he is:

Selfish

Enjoys big matches

Would need to do a lot of adapting to fit into my team

Im sorry - but WHY do you need geni scout?

I don't need YOU or my scout to tell me that. I have my eyes for that. I know it is available indirectly through media handling style and not through his personality. Does the one word ambitious tell you that he lacks loyalty to the club? Does it tell you about his poor professionalism where he might occasionally miss a training if he overslept? Does it tell you he has poor temperament that he might occasionally gets into a fight with somebody?

With increasing media scrutiny over footballers nowadays, I will be very surprised if a big club who owns Balotelli or is intending to buy him do have much ideas about the personality of that player. You will think that the big clubs do not do any background checks on the player?

I dont mean to be funny - but the game already tells you all of that and more.

Ballitotelis personal page in the game says:

Outspoken

Volatile

Confrontational

And it also mentions that he is ambitious

And my scout report says he is:

Selfish

Enjoys big matches

Would need to do a lot of adapting to fit into my team

Im sorry - but WHY do you need geni scout?

It misses other things, like loyalty (if it is overriden by ambition). The media-handling style also lacks the "fairly" and "very" modifiers.

At any rate, I can't see how you can justify using Genie Scout based on your post. Pick a youngish player in the EPL today, and tell me right now exactly how good he will be in 5 years time. I bet you'll be wrong (and that's why these players have variable PAs in the database, as no one knows). So why should you, of all people, know this information?

But the scouts will not always be correct too.

The point is that you should have a vague idea of who is the most talented and least talented youngsters in your squad. If Wenger didn't have coaches nor scouts, do you think he wouldn't be able to roughly rank his youngsters in terms of potential? Of course not! The fact is that managers themselves have the ability to roughly know how good their own players will be - and for coaches like Wenger, probably better than his coaches and scouts. In addition, managers may roughly know the potential of other players whom they've scouted themselves - Wenger sometimes shows up at other games to watch other players, for example.

After all, this is why managers in the database have "Judging Player Ability" and "Judging Player Potential" - because they have the ability to judge a player, including his potential. The human manager, however, does not.

It misses other things, like loyalty (if it is overriden by ambition). The media-handling style also lacks the "fairly" and "very" modifiers.

But do you think those things are required by the player in a 'realism' sense.

So without using genie scout we are missing something that the managers would have in real life?

I don't need YOU or my scout to tell me that. I have my eyes for that. I know it is available indirectly through media handling style and not through his personality. Does the one word ambitious tell you that he lacks loyalty to the club? Does it tell you about his poor professionalism where he might occasionally miss a training if he overslept? Does it tell you he has poor temperament that he might occasionally gets into a fight with somebody?

With increasing media scrutiny over footballers nowadays, I will be very surprised if a big club who owns Balotelli or is intending to buy him do have much ideas about the personality of that player. You will think that the big clubs do not do any background checks on the player?

Erm? You what?

All the information that the game gives you is entirely realistic. You dont know that players are going to be loyal - look at sol campbel - club captain, promised he would sign a new contract and then left tottentham for ARSENAL - his manager never saw that comming.

If he was proffesional, it would tell me - ive seen players even marked as 'model proffesionals'.

It tells me he is volatile and confrontational - sorry, short of the game saying 'hes a moody bloke who picks fights, how else would you want it put (not to mention that these are real people and actually putting that in the game would probably get SI sued).

What more from a back ground check would you want than what the game gives you?

But do you think those things are required by the player in a 'realism' sense.

So without using genie scout we are missing something that the managers would have in real life?

Yes - the ability to know a player's personality in more granular depth, and the ability to hazard a guess at a player's PA without having to resort to scouts are important.

If scouts and coaches know a squad player's personality, then the manager should of course know that player's personality. There is a genuine question to whether this should apply to players outside the club, of course - where the knowledge should be less. But I do not believe personality is granular enough.

As for PA, a manager should be able to form his own opinion of a player's potential, even if the player is relatively unknown (it would simply suggest that the manager (or scout, for that matter) cannot judge the player accurately, so a message could be thrown that "this measure of potential is likely to be very unreliable"). This is important as computer managers have JPA and JPP, and they should be allowed to use it and human managers be able to have some measure of PA at their fingertips.

Erm? You what?

All the information that the game gives you is entirely realistic. You dont know that players are going to be loyal - look at sol campbel - club captain, promised he would sign a new contract and then left tottentham for ARSENAL - his manager never saw that comming.

If he was proffesional, it would tell me - ive seen players even marked as 'model proffesionals'.

It tells me he is volatile and confrontational - sorry, short of the game saying 'hes a moody bloke who picks fights, how else would you want it put (not to mention that these are real people and actually putting that in the game would probably get SI sued).

What more from a back ground check would you want than what the game gives you?

The problem is that ambition sometimes overrides loyalty because personality is reduced to one word plus one optional modifier (fairly/very). Loyalty and ambition are important attributes and having one overriding the other is not good.

In addition, media-handling style lacks the modifiers "fairly" and "very".

So the net result is that a manager either knows loyalty or ambition, and if the player isn't, say, temperamental enough to warrant a "comfrontational" or "volatile" media-handling style, he may lose out the "fairly" modifier for "temperamental".

I've argued in the past that we need much more personality attributes being shown, so I know Rooney is ambitious, temperamental, driven, determined and controversial, for example. I don't see that as particularly demanding considering even the fans know this is what Rooney is like.

I don't need YOU or my scout to tell me that. I have my eyes for that. I know it is available indirectly through media handling style and not through his personality. Does the one word ambitious tell you that he lacks loyalty to the club? Does it tell you about his poor professionalism where he might occasionally miss a training if he overslept? Does it tell you he has poor temperament that he might occasionally gets into a fight with somebody?

With increasing media scrutiny over footballers nowadays, I will be very surprised if a big club who owns Balotelli or is intending to buy him do have much ideas about the personality of that player. You will think that the big clubs do not do any background checks on the player?

do you think steve bruce knew Darren Bent was a money chasing knob who would jump ship as soon as someone offered him more money? Do you think Fergie though wayne rooney would hold the club over a barrel about a new contract, and even publicly slate the club to the media? You dont really get to know any of these things before you sign a player, you may have an idea of what you think the player is like but that doesnt mean you are correct. You quickly learn these things with your players and you learn how to deal with it, no one comes to you with a sheet of paper telling you everything about a players personality, why should the game? If after 6 months you havent managed to figure out a players personality you are doing something very wrong.

I have no issue with all the information being brought to me via my assistant - that doesnt bother me. For players I own I have plenty enough information on their person page and on their report page to not require genie scout in any shape or form.

The second part is a little more interrresting - do AI managers actually have their own JP ability (I know they do on their stats page) but do they actually use it, or do I clubs also work as a sort of 'whole' entity headed by the manager with the information comming from the best source (Ass man/ scouts etc).

Yes - the ability to know a player's personality in more granular depth, and the ability to hazard a guess at a player's PA without having to resort to scouts are important.

If scouts and coaches know a squad player's personality, then the manager should of course know that player's personality. There is a genuine question to whether this should apply to players outside the club, of course - where the knowledge should be less. But I do not believe personality is granular enough.

As for PA, a manager should be able to form his own opinion of a player's potential, even if the player is relatively unknown (it would simply suggest that the manager (or scout, for that matter) cannot judge the player accurately, so a message could be thrown that "this measure of potential is likely to be very unreliable"). This is important as computer managers have JPA and JPP, and they should be allowed to use it and human managers be able to have some measure of PA at their fingertips.

you do have a measure of PA, you have scout reports, you can check on his ratings playing for the youth side, you can try him out in the first team and see how he slots in, this game makes it very very easy to judge a players potential it shouldnt be laid out on a plate, that would make the entire process of finding youth boring and predictable.

I've argued in the past that we need much more personality attributes being shown, so I know Rooney is ambitious, temperamental, driven, determined and controversial, for example. I don't see that as particularly demanding considering even the fans know this is what Rooney is like.

that I dont disagee with, but equally I dont see it as an 'excuse' to use genie scout.

do you think steve bruce knew Darren Bent was a money chasing knob who would jump ship as soon as someone offered him more money? Do you think Fergie though wayne rooney would hold the club over a barrel about a new contract, and even publicly slate the club to the media? You dont really get to know any of these things before you sign a player, you may have an idea of what you think the player is like but that doesnt mean you are correct. You quickly learn these things with your players and you learn how to deal with it, no one comes to you with a sheet of paper telling you everything about a players personality, why should the game? If after 6 months you havent managed to figure out a players personality you are doing something very wrong.

There are of course things we never know about players until it comes out, but we are talking about things that we know in-real life and should know in-game (not things we don't know in real-life).

The ability to have an idea of how a player's personality in-game can of course include some measure of error. For example, nobody knows Player X's adaptability until he moves - later analysis of the player could reveal a personality trait of "easily-homesick", as demonstrated by the fact he moved back to his home country after getting homesick. Therefore a manager could have a rough idea of a player's adaptability (i.e. he settles well for European matches and performed well at the World Cup in a foreign nation - but those were clearly flashes in the pan), but was wrong.

The problem is that ambition sometimes overrides loyalty because personality is reduced to one word plus one optional modifier (fairly/very). Loyalty and ambition are important attributes and having one overriding the other is not good.

In addition, media-handling style lacks the modifiers "fairly" and "very".

So the net result is that a manager either knows loyalty or ambition, and if the player isn't, say, temperamental enough to warrant a "comfrontational" or "volatile" media-handling style, he may lose out the "fairly" modifier for "temperamental".

I've argued in the past that we need much more personality attributes being shown, so I know Rooney is ambitious, temperamental, driven, determined and controversial, for example. I don't see that as particularly demanding considering even the fans know this is what Rooney is like.

I can very much see where you are coming from, but i dont think we should get TOO much more information, but i totally agree about the fairly and very modifiers