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Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 14:06
As some of you have noticed, the majority of normal posters from SI haven't been on the forums much recently.

I can't talk for anyone else at SI (unless I'm doing PR http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), and whilst it's true that we've all been really busy with FM08, FMH08 and FML and that is part of the reason, from my own point of view, it's because the forums seem to have been changing a lot over the last 18 months, and it's got to the point where I don't think they're very nice anymore.

The purpose of these forums is for people to be able to talk about the game, a bit of speculation about what the future holds, coming up with ideas, and discussing them with likeminded people - people who play Football Manager.

What they aren't a place for is to sling around personal insults, not listening to other people or destructive criticism. Constructive criticism is fine, and always welcome, whether it be directly about the game and aimed at us, or whether it's debating someone elses idea.

We're currently thinking about changing the rules and terms and conditions of the forums so that this bullying behaviour is stopped, and the forums become a vibrant place again. So this thread is for suggestions of how to do that - I'm not planning on revealing what I'm thinking of at the moment, just want to get ideas from the regular users of the forums.

Stupid comments and insults (which I've seen on a lot of threads today whilst looking at a few things) will be dealt with accordingly in anyway I see fit. So please behave, and type nicely.

Herter
22-09-2007, 14:10
I fully agree.. I've also noticed myself being a bit more aggressive against some, although I'm quite a nice person in general. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - It's like I automatically adapt to the "normal tone" in the forums.

One start is to have more moderators and have more strict rules. Perhaps there should be more temporary short bans (1-4 weeks).

Frankie 7
22-09-2007, 14:11
Brilliant, Hail Hail on this. I have noticed this a lot and i don't really come on here as much as i used to as well. But, Please do change the rules to stamp out this bullying. Well Done SI>

B. Stinson
22-09-2007, 14:19
I think a larger moderating team could do a bit of help. That way, there'd be a greater chance of a mod stopping by when another one isn't around, thus allowing quicker diffusion of all those roasts that start when mods aren't around(you know, those threads that start really stupid and pointless, and then go to about 10 pages of nothing but insults before any mod comes back to break it up).

*For example: TBL has quite a large mod team, and the forums are very well kept and disciplined.

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 14:21
More mods is definitely something we'll be looking at.

Keep the suggestions coming http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

r0x0r
22-09-2007, 14:21
Originally posted by Herter:

One start is to have more moderators and have more strict rules. Perhaps there should be more temporary short bans (1-4 weeks).

Perhaps even day bans?

For "bad" behavior rather than "banning" behavior, an exponential system works well. 1 day first time, then 2, then 4, then 8...

Perhaps after a period of weeks equal to the last ban amount (1 week to clear a 1 day ban, 2 weeks to get rid of a 2 day, etc.) their "counter" could be reset?


Or am i over complicating?

MixitupMixitdictator
22-09-2007, 14:22
random time too bring this up!

Frankie 7
22-09-2007, 14:24
Originally posted by MixitupMixitdictator:
random time too bring this up!

It's been long over due though. More mods is maybe the best way to go on this. Not having a go but the mods just now don't seem to be around a lot these days.

The £Sin Bin£ idea could work as well as that would give the person/people arguing time to cool off.

LFC Lloydy
22-09-2007, 14:26
Totally agree and I am glad you have raised the issue Miles http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Unfortunately at the moment it seems to be that every discussion turns into an argument (wouldn't be surprised if this did aswell)
which stops the forumum from beng as enjoyable as it possibly could be. I have also noticed that it is putting of a lot of newcomers aswell.

Unfortunately I can't think of a perfect solution to the problem.

I think more mods would be a start as at the monetn there can be long periods of time when there are no mods about.

Maybe the introduction of the abilty to complain about general rude behaviour by a member over a period of time rather than just a single post aswell. This can then be noted and if others also complain the mods can review his post history to see if they are of the same opinion. I just don't think that being able to complain about a single post can always point out a person's behaviour.

dirty1982dec
22-09-2007, 14:27
thank god you're taking this seriously miles. i think we do need more mods. and to be frank, ban everyone, who starts to "misbehave" immediately and for a long ban. pointless posts should be removed or closed quicker and spammers should be excluded

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 14:28
Mixitup - see, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. A destructive, completely pointless comment.

Have a yellow card for your troubles.

wwfan
22-09-2007, 14:33
As I see it, the last two editions of FM (and especially FM07) have split the forums in two. There are those that love the game and offer advice on how to play and there are those who can't get to grips with its ever increasing complexity and blame the game for these problems. The two sides are unable to agree which caused some hot disputes. Now, I'm all for discussion but both sides are wont to become arrogant if they aren't listened to.

The common two arguments are:

1) The game sucks + evidence + you must be cheating if this doesn't happen to you

2) The game is fine + advice + you aren't really very good at it once the argument gets heated

Once these binary positions have crystallized there is little constructive commentary between them. It is a dilemma for the forums because human nature is such that very few of us will be able to see both perspectives and appreciate comment from these competing positions. How to stop this?

I'm not really sure. As FM continues to develop it will more accurately reflect the ambiguity, randomness and sheer frustration of management. In doing so it will appeal to one section of player and not to the other. I see the two camps growing further apart. As they do antagonism is likely to grow.

I moderate for FM-Britain and we don't have these problems anywhere near so badly. It is an easier job because there are less members. However, we are much tougher on anyone who turns what was a criticism of the game into a criticism of the person. 1-2 week bans are commonplace for that kind of behaviour. If there were a no tolerance policy for personal criticism with an automatic two week ban for name-calling then we should rapidly make the forums more friendly.

Just rambling really, but that is how (in my just woken up in Sydney mode) I understand the reasons for the nastiness with a possible solution for good measure.

Frankie 7
22-09-2007, 14:39
Originally posted by wwfan:
As I see it, the last two editions of FM (and especially FM07) have split the forums in two. There are those that love the game and offer advice on how to play and there are those who can't get to grips with its ever increasing complexity and blame the game for these problems. The two sides are unable to agree which caused some hot disputes. Now, I'm all for discussion but both sides are wont to become arrogant if they aren't listened to.

The common two arguments are:

1) The game sucks + evidence + you must be cheating if this doesn't happen to you

2) The game is fine + advice + you aren't really very good at it once the argument gets heated

Once these binary positions have crystallized there is little constructive commentary between them. It is a dilemma for the forums because human nature is such that very few of us will be able to see both perspectives and appreciate comment from these competing positions. How to stop this?

I'm not really sure. As FM continues to develop it will more accurately reflect the ambiguity, randomness and sheer frustration of management. In doing so it will appeal to one section of player and not to the other. I see the two camps growing further apart. As they do antagonism is likely to grow.

I moderate for FM-Britain and we don't have these problems anywhere near so badly. It is an easier job because there are less members. However, we are much tougher on anyone who turns what was a criticism of the game into a criticism of the person. 1-2 week bans are commonplace for that kind of behaviour. If there were a no tolerance policy for personal criticism with an automatic two week ban for name-calling then we should rapidly make the forums more friendly.

Just rambling really, but that is how (in my just woken up in Sydney mode) I understand the reasons for the nastiness with a possible solution for good measure.

Totally agree with wwfan here. This seems to be what is going on and the fact that the new game is just around the corner and new members are asking things like when the demo will be out and being shot down. I have even seen members being picked on by more than ten so called members who have been here long enough to know this. I am webmaster at fmglive and as with fm-britian we do not tolerate this at all. Automatic bans is what we hand out but for bullying we hand out much tougher bans. Maybe there could be a small section for new members, Say they get out of there after so many posts or say after a sort of time spent to get to grips with the rules etc. (Maybe this is a bad idea though) Need to think more on this one.

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 14:43
LFC Lloydy & wwfan - I don't have a problem with heated discussions, as long as both sides respects the others opinion, and, if they don't, they should just not comment.

Making a point is fine. Making a point in a condescending way is not. Making a sniping post is also not.

We know that some people are finding the game too complex. It was one of the reasons behind our decision to make Football Manager Handheld. We'll also be trying to provide better guides for people on playing the game this year on this site, and with some of the features on footballmanager.net

By having these forums, and coming to them ourselves, we're also an easy target for people hiding behind their computer screens to have a go. It's something that isn't seen as much on the unofficial forums because it's not as obvious that we're looking at those. One of the options we have is to have them controlled by outside forces, so not come into them at all, which is what a lot of games developers do nowadays (and most bands/authors/films/other entertainment industries) but we really don't want to go down that route, as we think direct contact with our community and the people who play our game, and come up with such great ideas for future versions, is really important.

enema0007
22-09-2007, 14:43
wwfan, i agree with you but i think it does go deeper in that, i feel that there certain members of this forum that are on constant power trips, and instead of offering advice the first thing they say is read the rules

i think there needs to ways of rewarding good posting from members, maybe a post increase by a moderator if he/she feels that the a poster has made a good post to help a newbie

you guys could probably come up with a better reward system but that was the first thing that came to mind

Martin Allen
22-09-2007, 14:44
I agree about the more mods suggestion, the fast the silly threads that get opened can be shut the less time the people who want to make pointless / insulting posts have to make them

I think the main problem on the forums at times is sadly one that I find on many forums, people just waiting for a chance to jump on somebody elses back whenever they make a slight error or give a sarcastic answer when somebody asks a question or maybe post in the wrong forum, maybe some sort of section where basic questions like how to take a screenshot etc are ansewrd and would maybe cut down on this threads which lead to stuipd answers, also if it was created if somebody did make a thread about one of the answerd question a quick linking to the answer would do the job

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 14:44
Frankie 7 - and one of the outcomes of this bullying is that those users don't come back. And that's one of the main reasons that it has to stop!

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 14:46
Mallen - so the addition of more stuff in sibase then? Any more suggestions for what should be added?

Ackter
22-09-2007, 14:50
Even though I have much less time on here these days, it's still disapointing that there's nothing I really want to get involved in when I'm here.

I think a seperate Suggestions forum would be a good thing.

Martin Allen
22-09-2007, 14:51
Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Mallen - so the addition of more stuff in sibase then?

I'll admitt until you just posted this I didn't even know sibase existed, people who find the forums without going through the SI site are likely not to know it exists

Maybe putting thoe questions as threads in their own locked forum

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 14:51
Ackter - the problem with it when we used to have it seperate is that few people saw the suggestions. Certainly something we can look into though.

Ackter
22-09-2007, 14:53
Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Ackter - the problem with it when we used to have it seperate is that few people saw the suggestions. Certainly something we can look into though.

To be honest that's no different from now.
Any good idea is immediately shunted off the first page and burried under all the usual threads - especially at this time of year with the release thread deluge.

enema0007
22-09-2007, 14:53
miles i think he was maybe referring to a QA thread at the top of the topic list.

And ackter, i do agree with you here, i feel that there are less interesting debates regarding the games future at present but i feel that a separate forum for that will just make the place more and fragmented

amack1n
22-09-2007, 15:08
Unless I'm mistaken, on gamefaqs.com they use a system where you can only make so many posts per day depending on your 'karma' rating.

So maybe employing a similar system where we limit the amount of posts/threads a user can post will help. That should stop people coming online specifically to complain, and will cut any arguements down when someone runs out of posts.

A second idea could be for users to give 'kudos points' to other users depending on the quality of the post/thread. For a condescending, pointless post they would lsoe kudos and for a friendly, helpful post they would gain kudos. Then the user could post more replies/threads depending on their overall kudos level.

They were just some idea off the top of my head. Feel free to shoot them down

Walcott\'s Wonderkids
22-09-2007, 15:11
Whilst I haven't been on the forums as long as some of the other guys, it seems pretty obvious that most of the arguments / heated debates occur from the semi-unrelevant threads that are started, most of which are started by people who are very new to the forums (ie: signed up within the last couple of months).

When I first joined the forums, in the challenge / sign-up forum when you started a thread it had to be approved by a mod. This doesn't happen anymore and it is noticeable than there has been an upsurge in poorly thought out threads. In the GQ section, there's always been people starting semi-pointless threads.

Therefore, I know it would require a fairly large uptake in new mods to carry it out, but all new people to the forums could have their posts modded early on, more specifically if starting a topic, so that the number of situations for heated debate are minimalised.


Also, quite alot of the sniping starts from sometimes minor things, like txt speak or capitals, which mainly occurs because people have never read the forum rules. Now I know people can just go and look at them, but would / could SI come up with something so that as a one off when people signed in one day they were faced with a page clearly stating the forum rules in short sharp terms which had to be accepted before continuing. Now I know most people could say that that is pointless as most people will do what they want, but I'm sure a gentle reminder every now and again would cut quite a bit those incidents out.

wwfan
22-09-2007, 15:12
Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
LFC Lloydy & wwfan - I don't have a problem with heated discussions, as long as both sides respects the others opinion, and, if they don't, they should just not comment.

Making a point is fine. Making a point in a condescending way is not. Making a sniping post is also not.

We know that some people are finding the game too complex. It was one of the reasons behind our decision to make Football Manager Handheld. We'll also be trying to provide better guides for people on playing the game this year on this site, and with some of the features on footballmanager.net

By having these forums, and coming to them ourselves, we're also an easy target for people hiding behind their computer screens to have a go. It's something that isn't seen as much on the unofficial forums because it's not as obvious that we're looking at those. One of the options we have is to have them controlled by outside forces, so not come into them at all, which is what a lot of games developers do nowadays (and most bands/authors/films/other entertainment industries) but we really don't want to go down that route, as we think direct contact with our community and the people who play our game, and come up with such great ideas for future versions, is really important.

I absolutely agree that going down the route of an 'outsourced' forum would be a bad idea. Equally, the pre-game (manual) and in-game (Assistant Manager?) feedback should be improved. However, and here's the rub, improving it to the extent that what is currently an excellent simulation of the management experience (obfuscation, ambiguity et al) becomes a 'follow this script to win' will alienate many fans and make the forums somewhat redundant. I'm not suggestion you are ever going to go down this route, rather pointing out the paradox any company producing management-simulations-as-fun is going to face.

We all want to win and all get frustrated when we can't. For FM to remain a state-of-the-art simulation, a large degree of that winning has to be user generated. Otherwise, why bother to play it. If SI tells us how to win through perfect information guides it isn't a game any more. The forums should be a place that can discuss the hows and whys of winning without following a prescribed SI-given pattern. Finding the balance between too much and too little information is the key.

There are three types of forum abuser:

1: The arrogant 'you can't play the game. you're an idiot' type

2: The 'the game is flawed. You're an idiot and a cheat' type

3: The obnoxious 'I'm going to whine at everybody' type

Each requires a different strategy to manage. Types one and two do provide valuable feedback and need to be encouraged to post without the power trips. Type three should just be banned.

Maybe a few more of the good threads should be pinned than currently. Each mod could choose to pin the best posts (to a maximum of 10) in each forum. That way we get to see where the best discussions are at a glance. If any fails to muster much comment it could be removed and replaced with another contender. Does require an increased mod presence of course.

enema0007
22-09-2007, 15:13
would that not frighten new users away though?

surely if you made something limiting like that you will only appeal to those that are hardcore enough to post regularly and it would make the users less varied

LFC Lloydy
22-09-2007, 15:13
Originally posted by amack1n:
Unless I'm mistaken, on gamefaqs.com they use a system where you can only make so many posts per day depending on your 'karma' rating.

So maybe employing a similar system where we limit the amount of posts/threads a user can post will help. That should stop people coming online specifically to complain, and will cut any arguements down when someone runs out of posts.

A second idea could be for users to give 'kudos points' to other users depending on the quality of the post/thread. For a condescending, pointless post they would lsoe kudos and for a friendly, helpful post they would gain kudos. Then the user could post more replies/threads depending on their overall kudos level.

They were just some idea off the top of my head. Feel free to shoot them down

I think the karma idea is unfair and would simply segregate the community creating some sort of hierarchy. Someone who has been registered for years can be just as offensive and annoying as someone who registered a couple of days ago so it wouldn't really solve anything IMO.

I personally wouldn't like any system brought in that created some sort of popularity contest like the second idea seems to be. I also think it would be inaccurate and open to abuse.

dirty1982dec
22-09-2007, 15:13
Originally posted by amack1n:
Unless I'm mistaken, on gamefaqs.com they use a system where you can only make so many posts per day depending on your 'karma' rating.

So maybe employing a similar system where we limit the amount of posts/threads a user can post will help. That should stop people coming online specifically to complain, and will cut any arguements down when someone runs out of posts.

A second idea could be for users to give 'kudos points' to other users depending on the quality of the post/thread. For a condescending, pointless post they would lsoe kudos and for a friendly, helpful post they would gain kudos. Then the user could post more replies/threads depending on their overall kudos level.

They were just some idea off the top of my head. Feel free to shoot them down

i'm liking that idea. i for one think the kudos is a very good idea. it could also help see if someone online is a person to ignore or to listen to.

Dayle Wood
22-09-2007, 15:14
What about zeroising peoples karma as a possible means of punishments? Although to be honest alot of the culprits are new to the forum, but this would certainly eliminate the older users from pretending to be mods. (which I assume is something you want to crack down on too).

For the abusive stuff flung about, why not have a zero tolerance attitude and make abuse an instant yellow, followed by red. Be less forgiving about it and eventually people will get the message.

In the rules explain this zero tolerance policy so that people understand that abuse is being stamped down on. Ignorance should not be an excuse either.

Finally for pointless threads I think locking them is working at the moment, though obviously the mods aren't always on here so sometimes they run a little while before mods see them. As was said above, perhaps one or two more mods on at crossover times to the other mods normal times.

Frankie 7
22-09-2007, 15:14
I used to be a member on a website where they asked you a set of questions about the rules on registering. That meant you had to read the rules. That worked pretty well as then they had no chance of saying they didn't know the rules etc.

LFC Lloydy
22-09-2007, 15:18
Originally posted by Frankie 7:
I used to be a member on a website where they asked you a set of questions about the rules on registering. That meant you had to read the rules. That worked pretty well as then they had no chance of saying they didn't know the rules etc.

I reallly like that idea. From what I can tell many (if not most) newcomers don't bother looking at the rules at all. Perhaps it could also be used for people who have broke the rules, i.e. the mod makes it so they cannot post again until they have passed the test therefore making sure they have brought themselves up to date with the rules.

dirty1982dec
22-09-2007, 15:19
Originally posted by Frankie 7:
I used to be a member on a website where they asked you a set of questions about the rules on registering. That meant you had to read the rules. That worked pretty well as then they had no chance of saying they didn't know the rules etc.

also along these lines:

how many of us have read the rules in the time since you first read them? having them come up when you click into the forums would be an idea. or similar to in the game... random rules come up everytime you go to a new post/forum. just shooting them out there

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 15:20
To be honest, it's not mainly newcomers who are guilty of bullying.

Frankie 7
22-09-2007, 15:23
Ok then after the people caught bullying, When they come back from a ban, They have to either re-register and start again as well as reading the rules, answering questions, Or just getting them to answer the questions before they get let back again.

Dayle Wood
22-09-2007, 15:23
Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
To be honest, it's not mainly newcomers who are guilty of bullying. then zeroising peoples karma would be a huge deterrant.

Frankie 7
22-09-2007, 15:26
Offenders could be put under Mod supervision in their posting. That could work.

amack1n
22-09-2007, 15:26
Originally posted by LFC Lloydy:
I think the karma idea is unfair and would simply segregate the community creating some sort of hierarchy. Someone who has been registered for years can be just as offensive and annoying as someone who registered a couple of days ago so it wouldn't really solve anything IMO.

My point there was that if someone has been registered for years and still uses the forums would be very unlikely to start posting threads in capital letters or whinging etc, whereas a new user could have registered on these forums specifcally to let of some steam to SI themselves.



I personally wouldn't like any system brought in that created some sort of popularity contest like the second idea seems to be. I also think it would be inaccurate and open to abuse.

I see where you're coming from. In all honesty, any type of system which limits your posts can be extremely frustrating. Going back to the gamefaqs.com example, I was incredible annoyed that I could only post 10 messages a day at first. I was giving a few people helpful advice and then suddenly had to wait another 24 hours to help someone else or ask a question.

Having said that, there a no threads saying 'OMG, this doesn't work' or something like that, and there are almost no negative replies.

Also, I don't really think it'll become a popularity contest so to speak. In practice, I thought someone would ask a question in the forums, someone would then answer and the person who asked the question would be more than happy to give him a 'kudos' for his time. Conversley, if there's s post which was never intended to help, he'd lose a kudos point. Over time, this would ensure the people who post friendly, helpful replies can continue to do so whilst to people who post negative replies would have to stop.

Ackter
22-09-2007, 15:26
I really doubt anyone cares too much over karma.

It's a shame that post-modding is such a chore for mods as that's quite a good deterrent.

Maybe short-term bans (3 days, 1 week etc) are the way to go?

podoooo
22-09-2007, 15:39
Agreed on more short term bans. Say a yellow card = 3 day ban/week ban. Think the current system of only really banning someone for 3 months doesn't really work as lots will never return to the site.

Sonic2006
22-09-2007, 15:44
How about 'helpers' who, instead of Mods, can answer questions on the demo etc, just people who are here and who can help those who might happen to get over excited and ask the wrong thing (it happens, hell I probably ask dumb stuff!)

Maybe a forum dedicated to a demo pre-demo launch could be created, perhaps an FAQ section, something people should see before they hit the forum and then can't be bothered to read through a 28 page thread (I can understand where they are coming from and so this would be my solution)

More Mods, perhaps this would help stop the bullying.

But I think the top two would help bucket-loads.

dudester
22-09-2007, 16:04
One thought I have is maybe set up one forum for new users to fm games that want general help in all areas.

New user comes to forum struggling with joe bloggs united asks who should buy gets abused gets told go to good player forum.

The same guy needs a bit of help with tactics i know from i started some the posts are on tactics are more advanced and in depth then someone who is new to the game may require.

It also helps some of the new members to the forum get used to the community and the type of forum we would all like. Getting to know other users in similar postions to themselves and the experienced users prepared to offer advice and help in the new users forum.

Matthew Le God
22-09-2007, 16:12
i blame the summer holidays

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 16:17
Matthew - and I blame posts like the one you've just made, for the bullying aspect. And both the bullying and the destructive pointless points have been going on for a couple of years now, getting worse and worse.

I really don't understand why people think making pithy, pointless comments is clever.

LFC Lloydy
22-09-2007, 16:19
Originally posted by Matthew Le God:
i blame the summer holidays

It has been going on for a lot longer than this summer and tbh I expect many of the culprits are far too old to be mistaken for a child. IMO it is more a matter of arrogance rather than childishness.

Frankie 7
22-09-2007, 16:24
What everyone forgets is that SI will end up taking the forums away. Just daft when you think about it.

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 16:26
Frankie - that's exactly what I'm trying to stop from happening, and why I need the input of the people who are also wanting it to stop. It's going to be very tough to let others know (who don't come here anymore) that we've sorted the problems though, but we'll work out how to do that after we've worked out how to fix the issues...

Matthew Le God
22-09-2007, 16:27
i wasn't being serious or directing it at an individual http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Frankie 7
22-09-2007, 16:29
Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Frankie - that's exactly what I'm trying to stop from happening, and why I need the input of the people who are also wanting it to stop. It's going to be very tough to let others know (who don't come here anymore) that we've sorted the problems though, but we'll work out how to do that after we've worked out how to fix the issues...
Well i am sure some of the old members still hang around other sites so maybe a charm offensive once everything is in order. Word of mouth as well will soon get them back. But if everyone helps out rather than just SI, then this can be stopped and stopped quickly. This will take everyone helping.

Miles Jacobson
22-09-2007, 16:47
Matthew Le God - you've obviously missed the point about what is wrong with these forums. Or do I have to add "pointless, pithy comments" to the terms and conditions, alongside bullying and the other stuff above.

tomtuck01
22-09-2007, 17:03
Agree with everything you've said Miles.

Ive only been here since March and in the short time I've been here the forums have changed for the worse. When I first joined, many people were willing to offer help and advice if it was needed, with just a few been on the nasty kind. Since the first few weeks of me being here, people have turned more snipey and some members, (be they new or old), only offering unhelpful, patronising comments to newcomers. I'm by no means perfect, and at times have found myself making comments that I personally hate to be on the recieving end of.

Hopefully this will start to be cleaned up soon as many newcomers seem to be posting once or twice and then disappearing due to the rudeness of others.

As for suggestions, as has already been said, more mods would be a good move. But besides that I dont really know as Im not much of an ideas man. As I've said, hopefully things wil start to get better before they get even worse.

Hopefully I havn't been rambling too much. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Keep up the good work SI http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dreaded Walrus
22-09-2007, 17:05
I agree with Ackter, and think a separate suggestions forum would be a great idea. Currently, there is one main hyperthread, and, unfortunately, there is some confusion about what kind of suggestions post should go in the big megathread, and what should be made separately. It is also a current problem that suggestions threads often don't get much input from the developers. I feel that in a separate forum, developers would be able to look at what suggestions are being made, without having to wade through all the other threads to see which ones do and don't contain suggestions. I also think it's getting quite hard to keep track of the suggestions in the big list thread.

As for rules and stuff, I think that all too often, newcomers are pounced on for, say, putting a thread in the wrong forum, because we see this all the time and it frustrates us. What we often forget is that this may well be their first thread. In these situations, I tend to just point them in the way, as they didn't do things maliciously. I didn't read the rules here before my first post, just like I don't read every game's manual before I play it. If I had created a thread in the wrong forum, and was helpfully pointed in the direction of the correct place to post my thread, it would be great, but too often this doesn't happen, which will put new users off.

buzzing_hornet
22-09-2007, 17:32
Personally the idea of an outsourced forum is a good one, for a major company SI's forums are pretty bog standard and are not much fun and that's not just down to the quality of the forums, the interface is dull and lifeless whilst the lack of options for users such as no edit feature or multi quote can make the place abit stoneage compared to other forums. ie. I use the main unofficial forum for watford fans which was created when the official boards were in dissaray and then most official users (inc.myself) moved to the unoffical one (www.wfcforums.com).

The new place was far more exciting, properly moderated with troublemakers being dealt with rapidly and the software being used was lightyears ahead of the official boards which used Premium TV (awful) whilst wfcforums uses v-bulletin which offers loads to users such as user avater's and signatures etc etc.

Old users who quit the official boards came out of hiding and enjoy posting amongst fellow WFC fans whilst any trouble was rare and dealt with suitably well by mods.

Personally i think the main problems on here are the amount of newcomers asking about a release date and completely ingnoring the rules, plus threads about AI cheating etc etc.

These threads are high in number and often force good threads out of sight and then decend into an argument. Side issues are condecending users who have a high karma and seem to think they're above most people, now i'm not saying all high posters, just some.

I agree with what Ackter and Walrus say regarding a seperate section for suggestions and perhaps around this time of year a temporary area for threads regarding a release date. Hopefully all those release date threads will go in there and those who have an ounce of common sense can avoid that area. This would then reduce the amount of hostility and arguments.

The search function isn't promoted enough, a small button that says "find" isn't going to grab people's attention and prevent them from creating a duplicate thread of something already mentioned.

Just a few ideas there.

Ackter
22-09-2007, 17:36
The search function is far from useful, and takes an age to find results.

FrazT
22-09-2007, 23:36
It is clear that when a new game is released, the forums become very busy with new posters who have just got the game, Many of the frustrations for the more experienced users of the forums are due to the complete disregard of the rules by a % of these posters who have neither read the rules or care about their implementation.

The suggestion above about ensuring all newcomers have read and know the rules would be good.

What about having a Karma level below Amateur, from say 1-100 posts, to highlight those new users with little forum experience. There should be a world of difference between an Amateur with 10 posts and one with 900 although they have the dame Karma tilte. This at least will let other users know who is new to the forum and ahould help with the bullying you allide to.

With absolutely no criticism to the existing Mods intended, there is also a need for constant Moderating, which happens when the game is released ( when all the SI guys are online ), but which naturally falls off as the next version approaches. Although we can understand the reasons behind it, there is little help offered in the Bugs Forum and the Help for PC Users forum, once the initial rush is over and that must cause serious unhappiness with those people who are coming to the game late and, although their problem may be a common one, are not getting any input from either the forum users or the developers.

If there is a problem with the number of Mods available, perhaps you could have specific Forum Administators, without the full discipline powers of the Mods but with enough authority to give warnings and help with keeping the forum tidy and efficient. It is clear that , at the moment, the tightest run forums are those with strict rules and fairly ruthless moderating so maybe there is a lesson there.

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed as I am just thinking out loud. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 00:31
Originally posted by MixitupMixitdictator:
random time too bring this up!

Excellent time to bring this up.

Release dates of both the demo and the full gam are the worst times, followed by holiday periods.

Sonic2006
23-09-2007, 00:45
If there is a problem with the number of Mods available, perhaps you could have specific Forum Administators, without the full discipline powers of the Mods but with enough authority to give warnings and help with keeping the forum tidy and efficient. It is clear that , at the moment, the tightest run forums are those with strict rules and fairly ruthless moderating so maybe there is a lesson there.

I think my idea would work, its similar to what you have said;

"How about 'helpers' who, instead of Mods, can answer questions on the demo etc, just people who are here and who can help those who might happen to get over excited and ask the wrong thing (it happens, hell I probably ask dumb stuff!)"

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 00:46
Miles. Having certainly made pointless, "pithy" comments myself, out of frustration and anger at the general shambolic nature and content of this forum, I welcome this new direction.

GQ has become a sort of a "sift through the carnage" zone in the last year or so.

What I believe to be the problem, (and you may not agree with me at all here), is that the small things are not picked up on all too regularly. Because of this, other people feel that they can do the same, (and in many cases a little bit worse). What you then have is a snowball effect where the problem hjust grows and grows.

The idea that I've read above where you have a day ban, (or even a week ban, or both in a sliding scale), is something that i think is an excellent idea.

In order to do this however, you need to moderate the forums effectively. At the moment, that seems easier said than done with poor Glyn seemingly chasing his tail most of the time.

With the recent case of the guy committing suicide on-line after abuse in an albeit very different type of forum I commend this direction.

I would suggest a rolling penalty for offences that can be gone through one by one, but whose steps can be bypassed for severe acts/comments.

They could be as follows.

1. Minor infringement eg textspeak 1 day ban.

2. Continued minor infringements or more serious infringement 1 week ban.

3. 1 month ban.

4. Life ban.

I have 290 people on my ignore list, (which I thank the Lord for), but for far too long, general abuse of the rules in GQ seems to have been ignored leaving the rest of us to pick up the pieces.

It doesn't happen in LLM, (at least not for long).

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 00:53
One final point.

If Mods and SI employees took as much notice of "normal rule infringement", as they do comments about no cd cracks and questions about non-licensed teams then I don't believe that we would be in this situation.

Somebody mentions a no cd crack and it's an instant ban and topic closed within a couple of minutes.

Someone mentions how to get the German or Dutch national teams playable and it's closed before you can think "how many times".

But abuse and general ignoring of the rules that set the standards in GQ on a day to day basis are constantly ignored even though there are many SI employees around.

Mitja
23-09-2007, 01:01
...good game is the one which is hard to win...

thoughts??

Nene_Park_Faithfull
23-09-2007, 01:04
I think, instead of closing threads that are causing problems because they are in the wrong place. I think you should move them instead. Or is this a long process?

dafuge
23-09-2007, 01:08
As many people have already suggested, I think more comprehensive moderating combined with new disciplinary measures could help things.

To me it seems that far too many people are not bothered about getting a yellow card for acting inappropriately on the forums, if this were to change to a short term ban for a number of hours, days or weeks I think less people would do it.

Perhaps we do need more non-SI moderators who specifically work on this forum, at the moment we only seem to have Glyn doing the job, with people such as Ter etc. filling in to cover it. I know it is run differently, but the LLM forum seems to have a lot more specific moderators who seem to provide round the clock moderating in order to make sure the forum runs the way they want it.

dafuge
23-09-2007, 01:09
Originally posted by Nene_Park_Faithfull:
I think, instead of closing threads that are causing problems because they are in the wrong place. I think you should move them instead. Or is this a long process?

I think it is fine as it is, a closed thread with a reason in it sends the message to other users about what is and isn't allowed in this forum. By moving them all, more people would be unaware of what sort of threads don't belong here and where they should really be.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 01:13
Originally posted by Mitja:
...good game is the one which is hard to win...

thoughts??

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

gipsy
23-09-2007, 01:19
unfortunately it's a path that are taking a lot of forums lately http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif As far as these boards are concerned, though the local language forums is a great idea, I hope it will not be closed down because of such problems (especially the french one)

gavnoble
23-09-2007, 01:37
Personally I think the problems started when the FM Forum opened without having assigned moderators in place. In the old days of the CM Forum you had Smiley Dan and Hoista assigned to the forum so you knew that these guys (in the main Smiley Dan as he just seemed to be around more during the times I was on, which at that point was pretty often) were in and keeping a tight rein on things.

For my money Smiley should have automatically been given the FM Forum moderating gig as he had the right sense of knowing when to assign cards, when to just give verbal warnings etc. Without the moderators assigned then you never knew when a mod was going to be in the forum and as new members signed up who weren't really au fait with the rules i.e. no player naming, tactics talks etc then it would often be the older users (myself included) who would, a lot of the time gently ask users not to post certain topics. In my case I would always back up with why i.e. player naming spoils the game for players who want to find their own players etc.

Obviously this then created a culture where a lot of the more immature posters would automatically get on the back s of all new members etc and be really nasty about it, therefore making it a more unpleasant place to be.

I fee l slightly guilty about my part in building this culture because (and it's not my ego talking here I hope) I feel that as a long term user of the CM/FM Forum that I had a responsibility in trying to keep things out of the Forum that shouldn't have been there and as a result others jumped onto the back of that, but with less politeness. I would say there were two or three other longer term users that were of the same ilk of myself and they no longer seem to be around either as much.

By the time SI started to get some sort of grip on it I think it was already too late. There has been a really unhealthy atmosphere on this forum for about the last 18 months and is a huge part of the reasons why I have practically given up posing in here. While I've been critical over certain aspects of the game since it became FM, I was often still in here helping other users with problems and trying to remain constructive with the criticism over things I don't like.

Howver, as one poster said earlier in this thread because FM games now seem to fall into two polarise camps - those who find the game too difficult and those who love it (for the record FM 2007 is the best game SI have produced and has reinvigorated my love for the series) you would see the same arguments taking place all the time, with a lot of users quicking crossing the line from constructive criticism to personal abuse. With no mods in on a regular basis the FM Forum has become a place where you no longer want to come and hang out.

I tend to keep my activity now to just coming in, having a read of the odd thread and posting when I feel I can add something that hasn't been said. However, you still see the same arguments and the same levels of abuse.

A reaffirmation of the forum rules and the addition of a moderating team assigned to this forum, someone that the users can see as a 'face' for the forum if you like, would be a good step in the right direction.

A team of two to three permanently assigned moderators would be a good start. I just hope that SI pick these carefully if they go down that route.

I could pick a couple of users myself who I think could do the role and I would like to name them as I think they embody all that is good and constructive about these forums - Dave C and dafuge. They are constructive in what they don't like about the games and friendly about the way they go about helping others, even though like me DaveC isn't around as much as normal I think he'd be a good choice.

Worst choice would perhaps be Ackter, who even though as I like as a poster myself, but has rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way on here and has been at the heart of a lot of the arguments.

There also seems to be a lack of consistency with the application of the rules as well in terms of some users being warned/carded for things that other users seem to get away with. There has to be consistency across the board otherwise people get confused and lose faith. For example, I remember one thread where a couple of people were swearing and avoiding the swear filter using the same word, yet only one of the users was carded while the other wasn't. Should be one rule for everyone.

dafuge
23-09-2007, 01:40
Originally posted by Ackter:
I really doubt anyone cares too much over karma.


You just need to look at the recent barrage of one and two word responses from one particular individual to see that it obviously does matter to some people.

Ter
23-09-2007, 01:57
One final point.

If Mods and SI employees took as much notice of "normal rule infringement", as they do comments about no cd cracks and questions about non-licensed teams then I don't believe that we would be in this situation.

Somebody mentions a no cd crack and it's an instant ban and topic closed within a couple of minutes.

Someone mentions how to get the German or Dutch national teams playable and it's closed before you can think "how many times".

But abuse and general ignoring of the rules that set the standards in GQ on a day to day basis are constantly ignored even though there are many SI employees around.

The topics about No-CD cracks and licensing restrictions are usually easy to spot and put a stop to via a quick scan of the topics. General abuse and rule breaking can happen in just about any topic so it's not as easy to spot and do something about. Quite often we're quite busy (especially recently) and don't have time to look through every topic in the forums.

One of the big problems IMO is people reacting in an angry manner to people who come in the forums and ask about things that are asked all the time like release dates and demo releases. At the end of the day we've got a lot of casual users who will only want to find out when the game is out or when they can play the demo. With some people reacting the way they do I would be surprised if they ever come back.

All we can do is put something in the forum header with the latest information we have and if you don't have something positive to reply with then don't bother. If it annoys you then close your browser and leave it to us to reply with the information asked and lock the topic if necessary.

gavnoble
23-09-2007, 02:22
Originally posted by Ter:

The topics about No-CD cracks and licensing restrictions are usually easy to spot and put a stop to via a quick scan of the topics. General abuse and rule breaking can happen in just about any topic so it's not as easy to spot and do something about. Quite often we're quite busy (especially recently) and don't have time to look through every topic in the forums.

One of the big problems IMO is people reacting in an angry manner to people who come in the forums and ask about things that are asked all the time like release dates and demo releases. At the end of the day we've got a lot of casual users who will only want to find out when the game is out or when they can play the demo. With some people reacting the way they do I would be surprised if they ever come back.

All we can do is put something in the forum header with the latest information we have and if you don't have something positive to reply with then don't bother. If it annoys you then close your browser and leave it to us to reply with the information asked and lock the topic if necessary.

I appreciate what you say there Ter, but if you look at the other side of the coin, users who are in every day do get fed up with seeing the same questions being asked time and time again, usually multiple times on the same page because the people asking them are too darn lazy or stupid to take a look at what else is in the forum before posting.

However, I do agree there are ways to deal with that be it not posting or even if you do post do say in a way that is a bit more human and friendly.

Ter
23-09-2007, 02:38
I appreciate what you say there Ter, but if you look at the other side of the coin, users who are in every day do get fed up with seeing the same questions being asked time and time again, usually multiple times on the same page because the people asking them are too darn lazy or stupid to take a look at what else is in the forum before posting.

However, I do agree there are ways to deal with that be it not posting or even if you do post do say in a way that is a bit more human and friendly.

I get a bit fed up with them as well but I don't think an appropriate response is "ffs do a search". Like I said, there are a lot of casual users who will just come in and ask a question. They shouldn't be hit with a wall of abuse / unhelpful replies. If they can't reply normally then don't bother. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

gavnoble
23-09-2007, 02:39
Admit it, you'd like to say ffs do a search...it's only because you're a SI employee that you can't! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Indoctrin
23-09-2007, 02:41
I can see only one problem with getting more people to moderate the forums. You would have to pick who moderates very carefully, people who know what they are doing and arn't biased in any way.

An example of this is the Man Utd forums, where to be honest the mods are kind of like Nazi Germany. I posted an opinion of a player on there, just a general "well I dont think he's that great" and got banned by an over excited mod because of it even though I had just expressed an opinion and not been offensive in any way.

I suppose having a sticky topic that only the mods can access at the top of every page in each forum subsection containing all the usefull things people might need information about, IE: release dates, patch releases etc etc etc would help with the people posting many many topics of the same nature.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 02:44
Originally posted by Indoctrin:
I can see only one problem with getting more people to moderate the forums. You would have to pick who moderates very carefully, people who know what they are doing and arn't biased in any way.

An example of this is the Man Utd forums, where to be honest the mods are kind of like Nazi Germany. I posted an opinion of a player on there, just a general "well I dont think he's that great" and got banned by an over excited mod because of it even though I had just expressed an opinion and not been offensive in any way.

I suppose having a sticky topic that only the mods can access at the top of every page in each forum subsection containing all the usefull things people might need information about, IE: release dates, patch releases etc etc etc would help with the people posting many many topics of the same nature. Doesn't always work though... in the tactics forum there are stickies which are routinely ignored.

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 02:47
These are the very reasons I spend less time on these forums at the moment myself, so any improvements that can be made get a big http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif from me.

The forum rules are constantly broken by old and new members alike resulting in animosity amongst differing groups.

The more experienced members need to learn the arts of tolerance and diplomacy as they should be the ones helping the new members, not immediately jumping upon any new forumite who happens to post something they deem incorrect.

Negativity breeds negativity so the older and apparently wiser heads around here need to start remembering that they were new here once too and more than likely made the same mistakes for which they now berating the junior members.

There seems to be a vicious circle whereby new members come in, make mistakes and are jumped upon by older members. The newer forumers then see this behaviour as the norm and emulate it. As a lot of new members are under 16, they are very impressionable and a short while down the line, they become the ones jumping down the throats of new members and so the circle continues.

The best form of action in my opinion would be the education of newer members of the forum by the older ones in a tactful way rather than a derogatory one.

Posting messages such as "Do a search FFS" are unhelpful, unfriendly and down right rude. A better response would be to explain the use of the find feature to the member and link to a relevant post which answers the question (if such an example exists).

By tying up a new thread on an old subject to the relevant answer, it would make the search better as there would be links to the most appropriate response to the question.

The impetuousness of youth will always mean that when a new user signs up, they will immediately charge into the forum and ask their question (especially if they haven't used a forum before) and there is no antidote to this. I'm pretty sure that the majority of members here did exactly the same thing themselves when they first signed up (I'm pretty sure I did too).

What is needed, in my opinion, is the older and allegedely wiser people around here remembering what it was like to be young and impulsive and, rather than get upset, pass on their wisdom and education to the junior members in a polite and informative manner.

By doing this, we teach the newer members decorum rather than abuse.

Hopefully this would slowly end the cycle of animosity as the younger ones are no longer learning that abuse is okay.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 03:39
Originally posted by Ter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One final point.

If Mods and SI employees took as much notice of "normal rule infringement", as they do comments about no cd cracks and questions about non-licensed teams then I don't believe that we would be in this situation.

Somebody mentions a no cd crack and it's an instant ban and topic closed within a couple of minutes.

Someone mentions how to get the German or Dutch national teams playable and it's closed before you can think "how many times".

But abuse and general ignoring of the rules that set the standards in GQ on a day to day basis are constantly ignored even though there are many SI employees around.

The topics about No-CD cracks and licensing restrictions are usually easy to spot and put a stop to via a quick scan of the topics. General abuse and rule breaking can happen in just about any topic so it's not as easy to spot and do something about. Quite often we're quite busy (especially recently) and don't have time to look through every topic in the forums.

One of the big problems IMO is people reacting in an angry manner to people who come in the forums and ask about things that are asked all the time like release dates and demo releases. At the end of the day we've got a lot of casual users who will only want to find out when the game is out or when they can play the demo. With some people reacting the way they do I would be surprised if they ever come back.

All we can do is put something in the forum header with the latest information we have and if you don't have something positive to reply with then don't bother. If it annoys you then close your browser and leave it to us to reply with the information asked and lock the topic if necessary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ter. I am not sure where you got the impression that only positive comments are allowed on these forums.

While I fully appreciate that SI would prefer more positive comments than negative comments, the simple fact is that without the sometimes negative feedback that you see on here, the game wouldn't have progressed to the level it is at now.

Constructive feedback is is probably what you meant, but it is certainly not what you said, and gives me an an idea as to your priority lies in terms of what is right and wrong with this forum.

If SI, took a harder line on people doing such things as opening ridiculous numbers of threads on the same subject, (while there is a sticky in place about that subject), abusing other users, and generally abusing existing rules, then we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

I get the impression from reading some of your recent comments, that you feel existing members of the forum are giving it a negative reputation and not making it a welcoming environment for new users. Maybe, rather than criticising some of the existing users for their well-meaning efforts, you should have taken steps to rectify the situation yourself.

I have lost cout of the number of times that you have chosen to concentrate on a humerous (but non abusive), response to a ridiculous thread, than the opening of the thread itself.

As for Gavnoble's comments, I completely agree with the proposal of Dave C and dafuge as the sort of people who could benefit the forum if asked to and if they were so inclined. Although I normally agree with most of what Gav says, (it's not brain surgery), I really don't like the way that he used Ackter as an example of someone who shouldn't be given additional responsibility.

I regularly disagree with Ackter's comments, but that does not mean that i or anyone else has the right to abuse him. After the release of the demo, (and full game), last year, Ackter was subjected to an almost constant barrage of personal abuse that stepped way over the line as far as I'm concerned, and despite me reporting much of what I saw, there seemed to be very little action taken in response by SI. (I appreciate that when a poster is post-modded there is no visible consequences).

If SI want to improve this forum, then I would suggest they should start to implement some of the existing rules rather than bleat about the consequences of their taking little or no action for such a long period.

Without mentioning names, how someone who gets a ban on one account for improper use of this forum, and a lifetime ban on another account for creating an alias while banned on the first account, is allowed to come back into the forum with the original account, (what's the point of a life ban on one account?), and then is offered a position to test FM08 is beyond me. Then while testing, he repeatedly breaks testing rules and posts on here just to get a reaction out of the people not is such a lucky position. When this is brought up, your response, (it's not personal so SI's response rather than the individual), is that should the person be punished and do we want him hung drawn and quartered.

We don't want anyone hung drawn and quartered. We want the existing rules enforced on a day to day basis so that we don't have to put of with the sort of shambles that we have been subjected to over the last year to 18 months.

gavnoble
23-09-2007, 03:48
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
As for Gavnoble's comments, I completely agree with the proposal of Dave C and dafuge as the sort of people who could benefit the forum if asked to and if they were so inclined. Although I normally agree with most of what Gav says, (it's not brain surgery), I really don't like the way that he used Ackter as an example of someone who shouldn't be given additional responsibility.

I regularly disagree with Ackter's comments, but that does not mean that i or anyone else has the right to abuse him. After the release of the demo, (and full game), last year, Ackter was subjected to an almost constant barrage of personal abuse that stepped way over the line as far as I'm concerned, and despite me reporting much of what I saw, there seemed to be very little action taken in response by SI. (I appreciate that when a poster is post-modded there is no visible consequences).



I agree partly with what you say and maybe it was unfair of me to name Ackter. As I said I do like Ackter as a poster myself but at times he hasn't done himself any favours by the way he gets drawn into arguments. The abuse he got was unwarranted and I agree that more should have been done to reduce the abuse being directed towards him. In the CM GQ days the mods would have been down on those conducting the abuse a lot harder.

I just wanted to make the point that if SI do go down the way of putting permanent mods in this forum then they needed to pick users carefully. Ackter for me would be an unsuitable choice purely from the way he polarises user opinion about his posting style. He's basically the Marmite of the FM Forum in that you either like him or hate him!

Me I like him but I know many don't.

Nothing personal or offensive meant Ackter old chap. Indeed I'd put myself in the same bracket with you as Marmite!

Ter
23-09-2007, 03:53
Ter. I am not sure where you got the impression that only positive comments are allowed on these forums.

While I fully appreciate that SI would prefer more positive comments than negative comments, the simple fact is that without the sometimes negative feedback that you see on here, the game wouldn't have progressed to the level it is at now.

Constructive feedback is is probably what you meant, but it is certainly not what you said, and gives me an an idea as to your priority lies in terms of what is right and wrong with this forum.

I was meaning in the context of release date / demo release threads and not the forums as a whole. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Of course negative feedback is welcome about our games, as long as it's done constructively.


I get the impression from reading some of your recent comments, that you feel existing members of the forum are giving it a negative reputation and not making it a welcoming environment for new users. Maybe, rather than criticising some of the existing users for their well-meaning efforts, you should have taken steps to rectify the situation yourself.

I do feel that way and some of the comments made in some of these threads have been unacceptable.

It's not down to me to take steps to rectify the situation myself. I only help out when I get a chance when often I'm a lot busier with other stuff and don't have the time to dedicate to sorting out forum affairs.


We don't want anyone hung drawn and quartered. We want the existing rules enforced on a day to day basis so that we don't have to put of with the sort of shambles that we have been subjected to over the last year to 18 months.

And that's what we're trying to do. It's been a very busy period at SI this year with us moving to new surroundings, a lot of new faces to help get settled in as well as the various games we have to make! I'm sure you can appreciate that the forums weren't high on the list of things to sort out in relation to the other stuff but we're taking steps to put that right now. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Younger Crayola
23-09-2007, 03:55
Originally posted by Ackter:
Even though I have much less time on here these days, it's still disapointing that there's nothing I really want to get involved in when I'm here.

I think a seperate Suggestions forum would be a good thing.

Most of the time, I feel this way too. The suggestions, especially the well thought out ones, are the real meat. There's only so much to be said about one of the features of the existing game, but additions can be debated for hours. Even better when someone becomes really passionate about them.

You know you're in for a good thread when somebody breaks out the diagrams.

gavnoble
23-09-2007, 03:59
Originally posted by Ter:
I'm sure you can appreciate that the forums weren't high on the list of things to sort out in relation to the other stuff but we're taking steps to put that right now. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Which is great news all round. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

So long as they are the right steps that is.

IWWROCKS
23-09-2007, 04:00
Definitly think the forums have declined. Just need to deliver some tough love. Be more prepeared to ban people for bad and unfreindly behaviour. Those that get banned might not like it but it will mean a much nice community.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 04:00
Ter. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Points taken. I do appreciate that you have "proper work" to be getting on with, and I'm also aware that much of the time you spend in the forums is probably away from the office anyway.

jayahr
23-09-2007, 04:17
I'm just here for the first time in a very long time. Would have to check my own posting history to figure that out. Before, I have been around a lot of time, even more than my karma rate indicates.

I'm happy to see that one of the main reasons why I haven't been on here for so long is being addressed.

On topic, I absolutely agree with Jimbokav and Gavnoble. Good to see there are still some people around who I remember for their good and constructive posts. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I don't think we need new rules. We just need them enforced.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 04:20
I think the mere fact that this thread has been started will give people pause and make them moderate their own behavior.

I personally think the last two days have already improved.

dafuge
23-09-2007, 04:36
Originally posted by Dayle Wood:
I think the mere fact that this thread has been started will give people pause and make them moderate their own behavior.

I personally think the last two days have already improved.

The 'forum police' thread a while ago had the same effect, things improved for a while but the fact that this thread has been started highlights the fact that things didn't last.

postal postie
23-09-2007, 04:40
Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
We're currently thinking about changing the rules and terms and conditions of the forums so that this bullying behaviour is stopped, and the forums become a vibrant place again. So this thread is for suggestions of how to do that - I'm not planning on revealing what I'm thinking of at the moment, just want to get ideas from the regular users of the forums.

Stupid comments and insults (which I've seen on a lot of threads today whilst looking at a few things) will be dealt with accordingly in anyway I see fit. So please behave, and type nicely.

do the rules need changing? or do the current rules need upholding?
i would think the current rules cover everything that's needed.

johnsoncarmichael
23-09-2007, 05:00
sensible policy for a happy forum kutgw

t.hatch
23-09-2007, 05:03
think people returning from bannings under a different name needs to be clamped down upon, seems too easy for people with negative and disruptive attitudes to come back time and time again

andyinuk
23-09-2007, 05:18
Originally posted by Dayle Wood:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Indoctrin:
I can see only one problem with getting more people to moderate the forums. You would have to pick who moderates very carefully, people who know what they are doing and arn't biased in any way.

An example of this is the Man Utd forums, where to be honest the mods are kind of like Nazi Germany. I posted an opinion of a player on there, just a general "well I dont think he's that great" and got banned by an over excited mod because of it even though I had just expressed an opinion and not been offensive in any way.

I suppose having a sticky topic that only the mods can access at the top of every page in each forum subsection containing all the usefull things people might need information about, IE: release dates, patch releases etc etc etc would help with the people posting many many topics of the same nature. Doesn't always work though... in the tactics forum there are stickies which are routinely ignored. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact, what i found in the tactics forum is that you get idiots who like to starts up rubbish threads up to annoy the mod over there.

FrazT
23-09-2007, 05:22
In fact, what i found in the tactics forum is that you get idiots who like to starts up rubbish threads up to annoy the mod over there.

Agreed, but due to fairly ruthless and regular modding, the threads get shut down quickly and the original posters rarely come back with similar threads

paulsgruff
23-09-2007, 05:40
I agree with the post about more information on SIBase, but I feel it would be useful if it was easier for people to find too.

There have been, on occasion, alot of posts in General Discussion about people having problems - yet there is no link to SIBase in GD or an FAQ at the top. There is also no link to the support forums in General Discussion and people that don't think to scroll through the forum main page may find it easy to miss as the technical assistance threads aren't in the 'Football Manager Forums' bracket.

Alse, alot of the agressive posts (in my opinion) seem to be towards subjects that have been covered many, many times, a general FAQ thread stickied at the top that is updated every now and then could solve some of that (in the way that the Football Manager 2008 sticky seemed to vastly reduce the number of "Football Manager 2008???" threads being created), obviously it won't totally put an end to overly repeated discussion, but it may help a little.

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 05:46
Another suggestion I have would be to stop the use of a couple of the negative smilies which are used to belittle other users here.

The two I am referring to are the "Banging head against a wall" and the "Rolleyes" smilies.

Ter
23-09-2007, 05:46
There have been, on occasion, alot of posts in General Discussion about people having problems - yet there is no link to SIBase in GD or an FAQ at the top. There is also no link to the support forums in General Discussion and people that don't think to scroll through the forum main page may find it easy to miss as the technical assistance threads aren't in the 'Football Manager Forums' bracket.

Pretty sure there are links in the appropriate forums (ie. Technical Issues and Bugs Forums)

Maybe we could make it easier to find.

dafuge
23-09-2007, 05:47
The FAQ idea has been tried before, Gav used to write an excellent one on the old CM forums. It didn't stop people from asking the same old questions like 'why is Freddy Adu ineligible?' but at least it gave something for people to point people in the direction of.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 05:51
Originally posted by DJdeMarco:
Another suggestion I have would be to stop the use of a couple of the negative smilies which are used to belittle other users here.

The two I am referring to are the "Banging head against a wall" and the "Rolleyes" smilies.

I use smilies a lot. When you feel that you are having to repeat yourself over and over again without the message sinking in I think use of the seagull is apt and I use the rolleyes for loads of different reasons, (including self redicule when I have been stupid).

If you take away smilies, what will be left http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif?

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/tumbleweed.gif

JJK
23-09-2007, 05:51
I fully agree. I think that the problem is that new regular user in this forum are younger every year.

Andrew Drinkwater
23-09-2007, 05:56
Originally posted by t.hatch:
think people returning from bannings under a different name needs to be clamped down upon, seems too easy for people with negative and disruptive attitudes to come back time and time again

New board with complete amnesty on bans the only real solution?

Let me ask you my good friends, is it a coincidence that the timeframe Miles refers to started with the loss of such good mates as Foobr and Wicks? (This is rhetorical.)

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 05:56
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJdeMarco:
Another suggestion I have would be to stop the use of a couple of the negative smilies which are used to belittle other users here.

The two I am referring to are the "Banging head against a wall" and the "Rolleyes" smilies.

I use smilies a lot. When you feel that you are having to repeat yourself over and over again without the message sinking in I think use of the seagull is apt and I use the rolleyes for loads of different reasons, (including self redicule when I have been stupid).

If you take away smilies, what will be left http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif?

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/tumbleweed.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is only those two smilies I am referring two though, there are plenty of positive ones.

Whilst I agree that there are good uses for them, the majority of their use on the forum is to ridicule others.

Your example of the message not sinking in is a perfect example of what I mean. You aren't getting the message across so you use that smiley in frustration at the other member not getting what you mean.

This is taken by that other person as ridicule and then the abuse starts.

As the saying goes "A picture paints a thousand words" and in this case, the words are mostly negative.

Ched
23-09-2007, 05:58
Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Mixitup - see, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. A destructive, completely pointless comment.

Have a yellow card for your troubles.


Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Matthew - and I blame posts like the one you've just made, for the bullying aspect. And both the bullying and the destructive pointless points have been going on for a couple of years now, getting worse and worse.

I really don't understand why people think making pithy, pointless comments is clever.

I'm probably going to get a yellow card for having the audacity to complain, but recently i've seen mods posting "pithy, pointless comments" so in all fairness miles what can you expect from the people on these forums?

As i've commented on recently (and got a torrent of abuse in reply, thank you very much) is that mods seem more fixated on closing threads for text speak and posting about things they don't deem worthy (a recent topid about the egyptian leagues springs to mind) rather than dealing with general abuse and mroe recently abuse (and jokes made at the expense of) people with limited grasp of english.

Having tried to defend people in both these circumstances all i got from several regular posters was more abuse and people trying to justify taking the **** out of somebody who had trouble with english (who has yet to return to these forums, i hope the intollerant haven't scared him off) this was until a mod (credit where credit's due - glyn) came and sorted it out, but didn't bother with as much as a yellow card.

Frankly bans are useless. The way you register for these forums means people can just open an account in a different hotmail account, however i can't see a better way to deal with these people.

More mods is a definite requirement, but also more attention given to general abuse, if the mods took abuse as seriously as text speak and no cd cracks this problem wouldn't exist.

I haven't read most of this thread, so if any points have been made before i appologise.

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 06:01
Originally posted by JJK:
I fully agree. I think that the problem is that new regular user in this forum are younger every year.

The posters being younger every year is not a problem at all. If anything this is a good thing for the future of the game.

The problem, as I see it, is with the way more experienced members interact with the new members, expecting them to be "model citizens" from their first post.

Young people will be influenced very easily by the general theme of the board. If this is negative, then that is how they will behave.

paulsgruff
23-09-2007, 06:04
Originally posted by Ter:
Pretty sure there are links in the appropriate forums (ie. Technical Issues and Bugs Forums)

Maybe we could make it easier to find.

What I meant was in the 'Subforums:' and header section at the top of the GD page. It links to the latest patch, wishlist, 360, handheld, editors, graphics, tactics, players, online, challenges and rules forums - yet doesn't direct you to the technical support or SIBase forums. I know a few people that use these forums and they generally bookmark GD and not forum selection page.

Pretty much everything else other than bugs forum, offtopic and LLM stuff is linked there. I just figured it would be seen by far more people as GD seems to be one of the places where alot of the people looking for answers about playing the game seem to go first.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 06:16
Originally posted by dafuge:
The FAQ idea has been tried before, Gav used to write an excellent one on the old CM forums. It didn't stop people from asking the same old questions like 'why is Freddy Adu ineligible?' but at least it gave something for people to point people in the direction of.

Maybe the layout may be partly to blame.

At the moment in GQ/GD we have the following.



FM2008 release info.
Fm2008 demo info.

FM2007 latest patch.

Suggestions for future versions.

Subforums, listed one after another in 2 lines.

Online now.

4 Sticky threads.

Normal Threads.


Maybe a different layout might help.



1. A link to the forum rules page that spells out bin no uncertain terms what is and isn't acceptable behaviour and what punishments are.

2. A vertical link to each forum giving a brief 1 line description of what the forum is about.

3. A FAQ that is updated on a regular basis by the assigned Mods.

4. Anything that SI want to advertise, (like FM08 and FM08 demo).

5. Links to such things as patches.

6. On-line now.

7. Sticky threads.

8. Normal threads.

The forum rules have just been added onto the other links to other forums, (almost as an afterthought it appears). If you look in some of the other forums, the layout is far clearer and the rules are far easier to see at a glance. (I'm thinking in particular of the way that LLM is laid out).

I'm not naive to think that this will stop all the negativity, but it might help.

A clearer link to the rules is a must though.

I am keen on a FAQ but I understand that not eveyone likes the idea. I have volounteered the idea that certain regular posters be invuted to answer a specif question to share the workload, but SI, the mods thought it was a waste of time then. Unfortunately we find ourselves further down the line experiencing the same problems on a bigger scale.

By the way, it might be worth reviewing some old threads on the same subject.

Thread 1 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/9362010892/p/1).

Excellent thread started by Ranson52. (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/3982009442/p/1)

Everything that has been said in this thread has been said in previous threads. What we are waiting for is some action to happen as a result of them.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 06:19
It is only those two smilies I am referring two though, there are plenty of positive ones.

Whilst I agree that there are good uses for them, the majority of their use on the forum is to ridicule others.

Your example of the message not sinking in is a perfect example of what I mean. You aren't getting the message across so you use that smiley in frustration at the other member not getting what you mean.

This is taken by that other person as ridicule and then the abuse starts.

As the saying goes "A picture paints a thousand words" and in this case, the words are mostly negative.

DJdemarco. To be honest, when I get to that stage, I generally just add them to my ever-growing list and forget about it.

Most of the users on here don't even know how http://www.hfboards.com/images/smilies/bangHead.gif works and it is used by a very small number of posters.

In any case, it beats abuse.

foxmad
23-09-2007, 06:32
I know I'm often guilty of making short posts that aren't relevant and sometimes pointless. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif

But I find that GQ is very much left with all the junk now, I still tend to come on here every now and again. But it seems like people are typing before thinking. Repeatedly starting up threads which can be seen throughout the forum.

Because of this I now tend to stay on OTF and in the Challenges, even though I registered on the forum to talk about this game.

I know that a lot of the users who used to be so helpful on GQ have sort of given up, many of them are still found around OTF and when they come back and see some of the rubbish that is posted they express their opinions. Which in my opinion is not right but is not as serious as other issues. Such as an improved search engine.

I'm all for the one day banning, but it would mean moderators would be needed to look through threads, not to read them, but to look for abuse of the forums which won't have been the reason they signed up.

Can't wait for FM2008 btw http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Frankie 7
23-09-2007, 06:38
1. Well i think new members registering should be made to do a like a pop quiz on the rules. That way we know they have read them.

2. More staff on hand. Forums seem to be without staff for long periods of time, The current mods need a helping hand maybe.

3. Mod supervision on posts/threads. This way offenders could be moderated with all their posts for a while. i know that is a pain, But with more staff this could work.

4. As someone has already said, Maybe just moving threads to the proper forums if asked in the wrong place could also help. I know what people will say, But if a question has already been asked then closing is the only solution but maybe a link gave to show that person where to look.

crashtest01
23-09-2007, 06:57
This will probably get me a yellow card but what the hell I recently posted asking was FM08 game finalised or was changes still being implemented this was the reply from miles

"quote" crashtest01 - way to late to add new features. And no interest in adding any new features either. So yes, a stupid question."quote"

Now fair Dues I did put at beginning of post this maybe a stupid question, but that reply was not constructive nor made me feel like my opinion was valued or welcomed, I registered a few years ago but have only recently started using the forum, and if that is the attitude of SI members then it wont stop my point is no matter what is implemented I dont think certain attitudes will change. But lets at least hope it will.

Miles Jacobson
23-09-2007, 07:26
Crashtest01 - you asked a bunch of questions that were nothing to do with the topic, despite it being clear that you shouldn't be. You then started your question with "stupid question here". I agreed with you.

If you'd posted some ideas in the tactics forum, which I had pointed you to on more than one occasion, as had someone else on the forum, then the right person would have looked at it on the right thread, in the right place. But posting that on a thread about an announcement that had just been made when we'd specificially said to not ask questions was pointless.

So whilst I'm more than happy to admit when I'm in the wrong, in this case, I wasn't, and is part of the whole conversation on this thread.

Matthew Le God
23-09-2007, 07:26
if you think you are funny, you aren't, however much your mother tells you you are

would this count as abuse? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 07:30
Originally posted by Matthew Le God:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> if you think you are funny, you aren't, however much your mother tells you you are

would this count as abuse? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, that's banter.

Miles Jacobson
23-09-2007, 07:31
Matthew - out of context, yes. In context, no. It's a way to deal with people trying to wind us up (as he later admitted), the same way you seem to be trying to do too. It worked perfectly with him.

crashtest01
23-09-2007, 07:37
Well Miles the question was posted on the tactics forum after you and dayle suggested however what I wanted to know is not in the game therefore as i couldn't find a thread to post my apparent stupid question i went to the only forum I had seen regular comments by yourself and other SI members. I have probably once again listed in the wrong forum again but as there is no forum for this particular scenario it is difficult to judge where we should be placing such events perhaps a new layout with more sticky threads who knows.

Miles Jacobson
23-09-2007, 07:54
crashtest01- The tactics forum is the right place for it. Those from SI who go in the tactics forum are the right people to see the suggestions (I am not).

But anything you do suggest is WAY too late for FM2008.

You called it a stupid question, so I can't see what you're complaining about.

I would suggest not putting in the "stupid question" pre-fix in future, then you would have a right to get upset if someone said it was (which I wouldn't as I would have just ignored it for being in the wrong thread).

Miles Jacobson
23-09-2007, 07:55
Can we get back to debating what this thread is about again please, seeing as it was hi-jacked for a minute there.

B. Stinson
23-09-2007, 09:20
I have to admit, I quite like the 'quiz' idea. Nice and simple way to make sure people have read at least the important parts of the rules.

gavnoble
23-09-2007, 09:41
Originally posted by dafuge:
The FAQ idea has been tried before, Gav used to write an excellent one on the old CM forums. It didn't stop people from asking the same old questions like 'why is Freddy Adu ineligible?' but at least it gave something for people to point people in the direction of.

I also did one when the FM Forum first opened but when I gave up writing for The Bootroom, SI removed it for some bizarre reason even though it was popular and busy and I certainly had no objection to it still being used. It had been fully checked with the guys at SI before it was posed so at the time nothing in it was incorrect.

I still think a FAQ thread has life in it.

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 09:42
Originally posted by B. Stinson:
I have to admit, I quite like the 'quiz' idea. Nice and simple way to make sure people have read at least the important parts of the rules.

I disagree.

In my opinion, this would dissaude a lot of people from joining the forum as it would be too much hassle to join in for the younger members of the audience.

To re-iterate what I posted above I believe that the responsibility is on the older members of the forum to show maturity.

If we set a good example and lead the way, the youth will follow.

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 09:44
Originally posted by gavnoble:

I still think a FAQ thread has life in it.

I would agree.

If only for us to point other forumites to, it would work.

gavnoble
23-09-2007, 09:46
I agree with DJ. A quiz isn't the way to go, however when you sign up aren't posters asked to abide by the terms and conditions, which includes the House Rules? If this is still the case then if people are punished by breaking those rules then they can't complain.

I've seen a few people mention short term bans and I think there is some merit in this idea as well. Once you've lost your posting rights for a few days you might begin to get the message that you need to change your posting style a little.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 09:49
If we set a good example and lead the way, the youth will follow.

If only.

In my experience you have to beat them with a big stick before they see the errors if their ways.

Tough love is the only way.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 09:50
That is of course a rhetorical big stick.

Michael F
23-09-2007, 09:51
I think there should be a couple of extra rules & short term bans added.

Scrap the whole warnings/yellow card system in profiles as some people see them more of a trophy than a warning (especially in OTF)

Maybe having 4 'categories' of offenses and each rule will fit into the category depending on the severity.

Category A - 1 week ban

These are the minor offenses:

Constantly posting in text speak, all caps & bold.
Post boosting/spam
Advertising in wrong forums

Category B - 2 week ban

These are the more serious offenses:

Flaming (e.g do a search ffs posts etc)
Trying to get another user banned
Abusing members, mods & SI staff
Posting pornography
Posting fixture lists/copyrighted info without consent


Category C - 1 month ban

These are the v. serious offenses that we dont want here:

Racism/Bigotry
Libelous claims
Constant harassment etc

Category D - Permanent Ban

This would be really serious offenses that would be a permanent ban:

FM Piracy
Advertising piracy
Admitting to using a crack (any gme)
posting links to illegal download sites, evading bans via alias accounts etc.

You get the idea.

Im not saying that those rules above should be in those categories but im just trying to help put an idea accross, the yellow card system is not really effective imo.

gavnoble
23-09-2007, 09:53
Racism/Bigotry should be category D I think. There is no place for that in today's soceity in any form be it spoken or written.

Michael F
23-09-2007, 09:55
Originally posted by gavnoble:
Racism/Bigotry should be category D I think. There is no place for that in today's soceity in any form be it spoken or written.

yeah i agree, i was just using that as an example thought gav http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 10:02
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
That is of course a rhetorical big stick.

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be a discipline system. Every community needs one and this is no different.

What I am suggesting is that when a new user comes in and their first post is what some would deem annoying, rather than get upset and have a go, show a little maturity and point them in the direction of the already existing answer whilst pointing out the error of their ways in a polite and informative way.

Obviously, repeat offenders should be punished with the proverbial stick. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 10:06
Originally posted by gavnoble:
Racism/Bigotry should be category D I think. There is no place for that in today's soceity in any form be it spoken or written.

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

The Game
23-09-2007, 10:06
I Think more mods is definatly the way to go.

if you need anybody to be one im always up for it.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 10:14
Drom the post on page 2 by Michael Foster.


Trying to get another user banned

I report loads of people for anything that I believe is against the rules.

At the moment I want some eegit called drox banned because he is just ignoring every rile and becoming a nightmare. What am I doing wrong?


Advertising in wrong forums


I thought there was no advertising anywhere http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.


Posting fixture lists/copyrighted info without consent

This isn't against any rule that I've ever seen.


Category C - 1 month ban

These are the v. serious offenses that we dont want here:

Racism/Bigotry
Libelous claims
Constant harassment etc


Forget 1 month ban.

Instant life ban for racism/bigotry and constant harrassment. End of.

As for libelous claims, I can't really see in what context that might occurr but isn't that what our justice system is for http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif?


Category D - Permanent Ban

This would be really serious offenses that would be a permanent ban:

FM Piracy
Advertising piracy
Admitting to using a crack (any gme)
posting links to illegal download sites, evading bans via alias accounts etc.


So that sort of stuff is more serious than racism and constant harassment.

I don't think so.

Ter
23-09-2007, 10:16
What I am suggesting is that when a new user comes in and their first post is what some would deem annoying, rather than get upset and have a go, show a little maturity and point them in the direction of the already existing answer whilst pointing out the error of their ways in a polite and informative way.

Completely.

I don't like the way users are greeted with the usual "ffs" replies when they ask a question that gets asked a lot.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 10:16
Originally posted by Michael Foster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Racism/Bigotry should be category D I think. There is no place for that in today's soceity in any form be it spoken or written.

yeah i agree, i was just using that as an example thought gav http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, hadn't seen that http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 10:19
Originally posted by Ter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What I am suggesting is that when a new user comes in and their first post is what some would deem annoying, rather than get upset and have a go, show a little maturity and point them in the direction of the already existing answer whilst pointing out the error of their ways in a polite and informative way.

Completely.

I don't like the way users are greeted with the usual "ffs" replies when they ask a question that gets asked a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, I think a nebwies posts, (and by newbie I mean someone who has signed up in the previous couple of day), are usually treated differently than someone who is just being a lazy arse.

I've seen many many people go out of their way to help necomers and I would even go as far to say that it is the norm.

The type of post that seems to be causing a problem is when the original poster is not recently registered.

Michael F
23-09-2007, 10:21
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
Drom the post on page 2 by Michael Foster.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Trying to get another user banned

I report loads of people for anything that I believe is against the rules.

At the moment I want some eegit called drox banned because he is just ignoring every rile and becoming a nightmare. What am I doing wrong?
Sorry i didnt mean getting people banned through reporting them, i sometimes report people if they are being a right pain. i meant posting things like OMG ban him, ban him etc, its like players waving imaginary yellow cards.


Advertising in wrong forums


I thought there was no advertising anywhere http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.you can advertise your website/forum in FMS forum but yeah i know what you mean.


Posting fixture lists/copyrighted info without consent

This isn't against any rule that I've ever seen. Its not a rule on the forums but you cant post full seasonal fixture lists due to licencing iirc


Category C - 1 month ban

These are the v. serious offenses that we dont want here:

Racism/Bigotry
Libelous claims
Constant harassment etc


Forget 1 month ban.

Instant life ban for racism/bigotry and constant harrassment. End of.

As for libelous claims, I can't really see in what context that might occurr but isn't that what our justice system is for http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif?

As i said that was just an example (see reply to gav's post)


Category D - Permanent Ban

This would be really serious offenses that would be a permanent ban:

FM Piracy
Advertising piracy
Admitting to using a crack (any gme)
posting links to illegal download sites, evading bans via alias accounts etc.


So that sort of stuff is more serious than racism and constant harassment. See above

I don't think so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers for feedback

dafuge
23-09-2007, 10:21
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posting fixture lists/copyrighted info without consent

This isn't against any rule that I've ever seen.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are not allowed to post full fixture lists since we do not hold the rights to them, it has been publicised in OTF in the past but I suspect there are many people who are unaware of the rules on it. I remember the mods having to go through all the club threads and remove them at one point.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 10:24
Michael Foster. Yeah, sorry, I saw your response after I had posted.

dafuge. I never knew that. That's a strange thing to copyright isn't it http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

Michael F
23-09-2007, 10:27
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
Michael Foster. Yeah, sorry, I saw your response after I had posted.

dafuge. I never knew that. That's a strange thing to copyright isn't it http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

So in general (ignoring which rules i put in the categories) http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif what do you think of my idea, personally i think the yellow card system needs scrapping.

The Enforcer
23-09-2007, 10:29
I think it an inevitable trait of such forums that as they grow, they become harder to manage and more unwieldly and before you know it you've got a real monster on your hands.

With the best will in the World, you're not going to be able to stamp out the worst excesses of human nature. An internet forum is an easy target for 'keyboard warriors', therefore in terms of discipline, I would favour a simple "three strikes and you're out" system.

As regards making the forums more user-friendly, maybe some restructuring is in order. Firstly, I wouldn't allow any replies in the sticky announcement threads, so that they remain just announcements. I'd then be inclined to have more sticky threads at the top of the page to cover the most commonly raised subjects falling within each sub-forum. I'd then be a lot tougher on posts that are a>inappropriate or b>in the wrong place by a>deleting or b>relocating to the correct place, whether that is one of the stickys i've mentioned or to another sub-forum entirely.

In my view, this would cut down on the numbers of duplicate threads and also remove posts that are offensive or irrelevant to the discussion topic. Moreover there would then be no need for anyone to reply to such posts, thereby preventing minor midemeanours from spiraling into raging arguments.

Obviously, this would be a resource-heavy approach, but in my experience forums with stronger policing are usually more useful/enjoyable places than those with a slacker approach to moderating.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 10:38
The Enforcer. good post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

Michael Foster. To be honest Michael, although I am in favour of a 1 day ban for small rule infringements, (I hate text speak), I think that the system we ahave at the moment is fine if we had people to enforce it.

There is nothing wrong with your rule system per se, but it gives us nothing that we don't already have now, and still requires the same resources to moderate.

I spend most of my time in LLM now, (I'm all GQ'd out), and it's so refreshing to see Iaj dishing out proper punishment for serial offenders. An example of what is wrong at the moment is that if you are found to be operating multiple accounts at the moment, you only get a life ban on 1 account. Now I appreciate that SI want to use this forum as an advertising tool, (and we must remember that that's essentially what it is, not a community forum), but they honestly don't do themselves any favours.

Have a look at one of my long posts on page 2 and the links in it to 2 threads on this very same subject just over a year ago.

Kris
23-09-2007, 10:49
Ill post this again as it was removed from the FM2008 thread (perhaps rightly so).

We have a userbase of over 100,000 users, it was over 200,000 before the SEGA community change.

We get over 5,000 posts a day, we also remove/delete a vast majority of idiotic posts or those that are breaking the house or forum rules.

a lot of the mods work is involved in the background which the enduser doesn't necessarily see.

Ill respond to a few points

1) Post moderation, whilst this is useful, it would be too cumbersome to use for a lot of cases. Once a user is on post mod he/she is free to abuse it by posting a lot of rubbish continually. This takes mods time away from the forum by having to read every post.

2) Targetting of nocd/piracy over generic abuse/breaking of rules. This is easy as a number of users will use the report post feature to highlight this. The report post feature helps us mods look at the posts we miss (afterall if we review one new post every minute of the day, we wouldnt cover 20% of the new posts). Please use the report post option, albeit sensibly.

3) New mods, we are always looking to people who show themselves to be a good contribution to the community to help out. There are some basic requirements though, so we are unlikely to take on someone who has been here a few weeks/months. Also the mod recruitment is via recommendation from existing mods.

4) We try to treat all users fairly, I dislike the "jump on the newbie" approach shown by a lot of people. The people who have been here a long time are under the same rules as those who who have been here 1 day.

5) Alias accounts are tracked by software I wrote about 3 years ago, just because we no longer need to "authorise" your membership doesn't mean the system is open to abuse.

6) Moving threads takes time and is a bit dubious under this forum software in updating its indexes. We'd rather close the thread and where it's not immediately obvious why, try to post a reason.

Kris
23-09-2007, 10:51
An example of what is wrong at the moment is that if you are found to be operating multiple accounts at the moment, you only get a life ban on 1 account

Alias accounts if registered with my software properly results in all related accounts being lifetime banned (as per house rules) and tracked.

Repeated offense is dealt with automatically by the software with a stock automated email to the abuse@ address of the users ISP.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 11:00
Kris, I don;t doubt anything you say, but, there was a poster carded over a year ago, who signed back in under an alias and who then posted a pic of his game with his real name, so it was obvious who the alias was. Obviously it was reported and the new account was banned, but he received absolutely no penalty on his original account.

A year later and he is back again, only now he is testing FM08 and poting on here about it.

When this got mentioned to the Mods they were less than....... we got told in the end to mid our own business.

Maybe your software needs updating.

Kris
23-09-2007, 11:01
I was unaware of that situation jimbo. Ive been a bit busy with a new kid as of late but am now back with a bit more time on my hands.

As I say, if SI override the procedure or its not adhered to properly then the software doesnt keep a track.

birdy123
23-09-2007, 11:13
It's good to have a reason why no moderators are around atm.

So more mods is a suggestion from me.

Another suggestion I have is for the ability for the opening poster in a thread to edit the opening post. As has been said, it is things like this that are taking up the moderator's time, and it would be good to fix a broken code or something without having to wait for a moderator to get time to do it.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 11:14
Kris, it's really not the issue. It was just an example of how frustrating things are from this side.

What made it all the more galling was that he was testing FM08 and we weren't http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif.

Look, none of this is meant to be a criticism of an individual. Not you or your system or anything or anyone else. Glyn is the most common mod in here and he does a great job when he's here, but there is only so much that 1 man can do. On the suject of Glyn, I would love to see a before and after picture of Glyn. 1 of him before he became a Mod and 1 now. I bet he's aged http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Anyway, congratulations Kris http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 11:16
I have loads of people on my ignore list, (approaching 300).

I constantly find myself responding to opening posts by them though, because the opening posts of threads by people on my list aren't hidden.

Please someone sort this out http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

Kris
23-09-2007, 11:30
Originally posted by birdy123:
It's good to have a reason why no moderators are around atm.

So more mods is a suggestion from me.

Another suggestion I have is for the ability for the opening poster in a thread to edit the opening post. As has been said, it is things like this that are taking up the moderator's time, and it would be good to fix a broken code or something without having to wait for a moderator to get time to do it. We have disabled that feature due to abuse (people posting abuse and then editing it).

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 11:32
Another suggestion, rather than banning for minor infringements, would be to place a restriction, timewise, between posts of offenders.

Essentially this would restrict them to only one post for a set amount of time (say 10 minutes) for a 24 hour period.

The amount of time could depend on the crime.

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 11:37
Originally posted by Kris:
We have disabled that feature due to abuse (people posting abuse and then editing it).

Could it be implemented where the post could not be modified for 24 hours but could after that time?

This would give plenty of time for offenders to be found out and aid those people who would use it sensibly.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 11:39
No just bloomin ban em http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif!

There's an eegit now posting in a thread about a free player databse. I give him polite directions to the Editors Hideaway and he says he's posted in there already but this thread in here will be seen by more people.

He knows the rules and doesn't care if he breaks them because nothing will be done about it and he knows it!

I give up http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 11:41
Let's see its 3am where I'm at...so please excuse me if sound a bit light-headed.

I'm probably one of the newer mods been doing this for what seems like 2 years...and one thing I've noticed is that the really good posters have disappeared into OTF. GQ was meant to be a one stop shop to help people with general concerns about the game and make general observations.

Every season a new game is about to unfold the same predictable thing happens and we expect that as mods. We know we'll be closing a fair number of threads or pointing people in the right direction. And sometimes as I appear to be one of the few mods who wants to be in Tactics, there is a deluge of destructive comments about the engine.

The forum exists as a conduit for SI to garner ideas for the future development of the game, at least that's what the forums used to be like in 2003. The forums now have to some extent become a venue for people to make sweeping comments about the game without working together to come to some acceptable conclusion.

This is a game, and for it to develop well, both sides of the argument need to be heard. When FM2008 comes out, I'm fairly certain we'll have the two go head to head again. Its good for the game, and it can be bad too if not managed well.
I for one believe in letting both sides 'duke' it out provided they provide the necessary facts to back themselves up.

In essence going forward perhaps if people want to comment on the engine for example, they should do so with detailed pkms listing out the particular "cheat" events that happened so that the game can improve.

These forums can't be too obnoxious as well, and people who genuinely find the problems with the game should be allowed to speak. They must also be made to understand why certain things may not work the way they expect.

The challenge to handle them emerges when they start asserting themselves. How do you then handle them? Yellow cards don't work, let's face it. Post-moderating can work, it just leads the mods to read a string of emails and to have to respond to them. Banning them is too extreme.

Does having more moderators help, yeah it might. There have been far too many tasteless posts and the list of OPs under post-moderation keeps growing

In my point of view...we should exercise some flexibility here. I have on occasion been one to explode, perhaps that's understandable with having to work and then moderate the forums and find time to help people who want to play the game.

We should encourage people who post well and give them unique titles as well. We should have awards for the most constructive posts and the most helpful poster, we should reward those who do well and we should denigrate those that post badly by identifying them. Public recognition is always the best way to influence behavior and a forum is no different

I made some sense i think towards the end I hope.

R

Kris
23-09-2007, 11:46
Originally posted by DJdeMarco:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kris:
We have disabled that feature due to abuse (people posting abuse and then editing it).

Could it be implemented where the post could not be modified for 24 hours but could after that time?

This would give plenty of time for offenders to be found out and aid those people who would use it sensibly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This outsourced forum software only allows editing in X minutes after the post not after X interval :/

DJdeMarco
23-09-2007, 11:49
Originally posted by Kris:

This outsourced forum software only allows editing in X minutes after the post not after X interval :/

Shame.

Kris
23-09-2007, 11:50
We should have awards for the most constructive posts and the most helpful poster, we should reward those who do well and we should denigrate those that post badly by identifying them. Public recognition is always the best way to influence behavior and a forum is no different

I tried that in 2002 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Works ok, but a lot of extra work for us mods.

OTF isn't capturing the good users, whilst it's a good forum for some debate it has very little to do with or very little benefit to SI as a whole.

Rather the good users are being diluted by the surge in registrations and thus the ratio of good to bad users decreases.

I remember house-keeping the members of this forum to below 20,000 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dafuge
23-09-2007, 11:57
I think it says something that for the last couple of years the GQ awards have been abandoned.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 11:58
the good users in OTF seem to gravitate to maybe a handful of threads, that's true. I have to admit sometimes I lurk there when GQ becomes a mess, or when I have to play the referee in a tactical debate.

Maybe custom titles for each individual forum. Pointless Poster of 2007 I could think of a few who could win that one.

There are some good posters here who deserve recognition. I think we should weed the good ones from the bad ones, and find a sin bin for the bad ones

Kris
23-09-2007, 12:00
Thatd be a euro or wheelie bin as opposed to a swing bin for the bad ones ? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 12:01
The GQ awards just faded away. There's just been too much for the mods to do sometimes. I have a great day job I sometimes moderate these forums from a meeting at work that's sending me too sleep. LOL

The awards should come back...we shouldn't make it annual though..that's too long. It should be more adhoc, every month perhaps and then at the end of the year..put all of them into the vote and give them something. I dunno what ..its 4 am now and I have a budget meeting in like 5 hours

stripeylad
23-09-2007, 12:01
I think that people need to help themselves really. I've seen a ton of posts from people asking questions for which the answer can be found elsewhere on the SI site or within the forums themselves. The original poster then gets upset that either

a) no-one has replied and starts posting again bumping his/her thread to try and get a response which results in more abuse for the OP

or

2) The OP gets a ton of abuse for asking the same question for the 1000th time or asking about a release date for the demo or asking an unrelated question in an unrelated topic.

If people actually re-read what they typed and then thought 'Do i need to post this' before they hit 'Post Now' I think the forums would be a better place.

I originally started out in GQ and then moved to OTF (more of a lurker than a poster) but find OTF to be fun (at times). Don't look in GQ much anymore due to the (so-called) 'mindless' posts by 'idiots'. Now I know these people are not idiots but I think too much in society now is handed to people on a plate and they just refuse to go and find information for themselves. Same can be said for the forums.

Now to make the forums a nicer place to be and ensure that people feel comfortable to ask questions and make it a place that people want to be involved in...tough ask. As I have mentioned I think a lot of the problems faced are by people asking questions for which the answer is already available. Now you could post stickys or have as many 'INFO' pages on SI as you want but people will still ask the question (case in point the relase date of FM2008 - no relase date from SI who make the game but "Play say 19th Oct so it must be then, they wouldn't just make the date up", I must have seen a ton of these kind of posts over the last few weeks. You can tell one person but then another will continue to say the Play & Game wouldn't post unless they knew the date etc. Must drive the people who have to manage this kind of thing mad)

And I know the mods have it tough as they all have 'real' lives to live as well as modding this place. Agree that we could do with more of them but they need to be the right people or it just defeats it's own purpose. No point having a mod for mods sake.

Anyhow not sure I've added much to this discussion or made any worthwhile points but I do feel that people should help themselves a lot more than they currently do rather than just post after post of repeated nonsense.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 12:03
Originally posted by Kris:
Thatd be a euro or wheelie bin as opposed to a swing bin for the bad ones ? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The bad ones just growing and sprouting up everywhere..I just want the good ones to be recognised...and I can definitely come up with a few from GQ.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 12:05
Originally posted by stripeylad:
but I do feel that people should help themselves a lot more than they currently do rather than just post after post of repeated nonsense.

Absolutely right. We need to make one fundamental assumption here...people behave well. Once we agree that people should do that when they enter, it should be fairly easy to determine if someone is either being lazy or being a pain. And these people should be dealt with. The question is how.

Michael F
23-09-2007, 12:12
Originally posted by Kris:
We get over 5,000 posts a day

4,000 belong to BBB.

On a serious note can you see which forums get the most posts per day, im guessing OTF gets the most then possibly GQ

GerdMuller
23-09-2007, 12:15
I havent been to GQ for a long time becuase most of the post really have been there a thousand times or are abolutely pointless.
But i really do like the OTF although i noticed a decline in the general quality of posts there in the last few months, too. But i also have to admit that i do like the sometimes a little rough tone on OTF and being a little sarcastic or mildly offenisve to posters who are known to be that too is a big part of the "magic" of OTF. Hope it doesnt become a boring place with the new rules with only post like: "So i got this new cellphone... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif !

Glyn
23-09-2007, 12:17
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
On the suject of Glyn, I would love to see a before and after picture of Glyn. 1 of him before he became a Mod and 1 now. I bet he's aged http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Before (http://web20.server-drome.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/bart/frakes.jpg)

After (http://www.sacred-destinations.com/mexico/images/guanajuato/mummy-cc-ehecatzin-400.jpg)

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 12:19
Glyn http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I'm betting you've lost a little of your pace then.

Michael F
23-09-2007, 12:30
Originally posted by Glyn:
After (http://www.sacred-destinations.com/mexico/images/guanajuato/mummy-cc-ehecatzin-400.jpg)

Not aged one bit http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Kris
23-09-2007, 12:42
Gerd : OTF is unique in that its not really a SI related subforum.

It will continue to be policed in the way it has been for the past 7 years barring any SI directive. Although I have tried to clamp down on a few people who seem to think that length of registration on the forums equates to leniancy.

OTF is a circle, I've seen the decline and the increase in posting quality every year for the past 7 years now. I;ve seen the demise and surface of old and new users and the movement of "trends".

GerdMuller
23-09-2007, 12:57
So OTF will live... http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Naryana
23-09-2007, 13:30
Originally posted by Kris:
This is easy as a number of users will use the report post feature to highlight this.

Maybe this feature could be promoted more? If you could get users to report flaming and useless posts instead of posting in it, it would mean you would only have to look through the reported posts to find the problem ones, saving you time having to read all the posts in every forum.

Glenn Stiemens
23-09-2007, 13:52
Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
As some of you have noticed, the majority of normal posters from SI haven't been on the forums much recently.

I'd certainly noticed this - it was something I was going to comment on in the FML beta. Basically, how refreshing it was to see people from SI taking an active part in discussing the future direction of that game. And sure there are a lot of idiots on the FML beta but in general the atmosphere is spot on - basically, its a fun place to be around and you feel that everyone is working towards getting the game as good as it possibly can be.

I appreciate FM is an entirely different beast but I get the general impression that SI has become a lot more insular in terms of how it tackles improving the series. I guess this is a side-effect of the development team increasing over the years (and the fanbase of FM shifting slightly as its popularity has grown).

For instance, if you take a look at the EHM forum - back when Riz & Graeme were still working on the title, you felt that they were far more active in the forums and that suggestions were taken in far more readily (possibly because the team was so much smaller and arguably more 'indie').

Having said all that, I still regard SI as being the most active when it comes to listening to constructive criticism when compared to other developers of a similar size.

I feel a suggestions forum is the way forward - GQ should be the place for newcomers to come and post repetitively about when the game is coming out etc, but constructive criticism should be placed somewhere else - a little more hidden - so that it gets more reasoned replies over a longer period of time. Whereas atm I feel its entirely possible for a decent suggestion to go down to page 2 or 3 whilst people spend their times in this forum responding to release date threads with bullying etc.

Zico
23-09-2007, 14:10
Couldn't agree more with trying to get some of the nastiness out of the forums. How about doing what Civfanatics do with their forums, which is to have a lot more sticky topics at the top of the first page? This means that all questions/comments etc about a certain subject stick to one place. Otherwise you have what happens here, which is page after page of comments posted each day, with the good ones rapidly pushed back to page 15 and therefore out of sight, and people getting irritated because someone has innocently asked the same question 150 people have already posed in the last week.

Arkim
23-09-2007, 14:22
I am relieved this has finally been made a sticky, and by a SI member.

It is ridiculous with how much crap this forum is filled with, and I mean those people that post like "ffs, search already" or "you suck, get better".

Some people, I won't mention names, have been so ridiculously childish in their posts, that it has made some members including me, not want to post my opinion in specific threads, and I don't mean the one question threads, because of fear of being ridiculed because some idiot thinks he knows it all, or is just too ignorant.

There has definately been a change in the forum and it's for the worse. I would highly suggest much more moderation going on, with well respected and mannered people on the mod team, not just someone who has lots of posts.

If someone asks a question that has been asked many times, why make a big deal out of it and post garbage on the forum? If you're going to spend time replying, make it a useful reply, or else don't bother. It disgusts me even thinking about this. There's many more examples which I'm sure most of us have seen.

I apologize if my post may seem a little harsh, however I wanted to post my share as well.

The Enforcer
23-09-2007, 15:03
A lot of things in life concern 'carrot and stick'. Carrot, because there's a reward for doing something and stick, because something bad will happen if you don't.

Most of what I talked about above was to do with the stick side of things, but it would be a good idea to try and introduce some sort of carrot to encourage good behaviour.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned increases in 'Karma', but I'm not sure about this as this only relates to quantity of posts and does not reflect quality of posts.

The 'Kudos' idea was better (points gained from fellow members for helpful posts and lost for unhelpful posts). I'm thinking of something similar to the positive and negative feedback that gets alocated to buyers and sellers on e-bay. There would have to be a limit along the lines of one point per peer per post to avoid abuse (otherwise an enemy could mark you down and a mate could mark you up by 1000's). If the Kudos rating was displayed as a % - e.g. 95% helpful (meaning that 5% of the total points awarded were negative for unhelpful comments), this would remove bias towards people who have more time to post on the forms and ensures that quality reigns over quantity.

Again, this doesn't mean very much unless the Kudos rating is linked to an actual reward. I'm struggling to think of something here. Financial incentives are obviously out. The offer of becoming a mod or helper is only going to appeal to some people. Perhaps members with good kudos ratings could be offered first refusal of future beta testing opportunities? Maybe there could be a 'hidden sub-forum' that would only be available to those with the highest Kudos ratings?

I may think of some better incentives later.

GoGa70
23-09-2007, 15:11
1. Minor infringement eg textspeak 1 day ban.

LOL - why not just to hang people fo this? http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif

GoGa70
23-09-2007, 15:12
Originally posted by Glyn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
On the suject of Glyn, I would love to see a before and after picture of Glyn. 1 of him before he became a Mod and 1 now. I bet he's aged http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Before (http://web20.server-drome.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/bart/frakes.jpg)

After (http://www.sacred-destinations.com/mexico/images/guanajuato/mummy-cc-ehecatzin-400.jpg) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

talk about pointless comments http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The Enforcer
23-09-2007, 15:16
I'm amazed my brain is still functioning at this unearthly hour!

To elaborate a little on the 'hidden sub-forum' idea:

Maybe this could work on the basis of a specific invite from SI to those with the highest Kudos to a specialist thread to discuss an aspect of FM that the team are currently working on (and possibly have reached a sticking point with). There are benefits for both sides here. These members gain from having a direct opportunity to influemce (an albeit small) part of the game development process and SI gain from being able to get specific fanbase input from trusted individuals, rather than having to wade through pages on the off-chance they might find something constructive.

The Enforcer
23-09-2007, 15:23
I'm undecided as to whether Kudos should be visible in the same way as Karma is.

On the one hand, it might be useful to know that you'd been marked down, as a learning process so as not to re-offend, or to highlight where you'd done good.

But on the other hand some users might get bigheaded and if people could see their ratings, there might be a temptation to post complaining about their score and lots of appeals to mods to arbitrate.

On balance, I would keep the Kudos ratings hidden to all but SI. That way, when the reward comes, it would be a pleasant surprise.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 15:24
Originally posted by GoGa70:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1. Minor infringement eg textspeak 1 day ban.

LOL - why not just to hang people fo this? http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There are people from far away lands that don't speak very good english therefore text speaking makes communicating for those people even harder and is therefore and quite rightly so, not allowed.

thefootman
23-09-2007, 15:34
I think a seperate suggestions forum is a good idea.I've seen threads of this nature receiving
plenty of useful and at times excellent ideas for the improvement of the game only to spot others appearing
seperately titled "Suggestion for FM** (or whatever the next version maybe).

I rarely start threads without running a search first but there will always be those who have neither the time or
simply can't be bothered to do so (which in turn results in multiple threads regarding the same issue).

I generally find that any issue I have with the game has already been covered by others and when I have posted a
question or tried to be helpful most people have replied nicely and in a friendly manner.

As for the overall conduct on the forums (particulary GQ) I myself have been guilty at times of posting the odd sarcastic
reply without thinking of it as anything but a gentle rebuff (perhaps to a subject that I thought was deserving of
it) and only afterwards thinking "Why did I post that?".I've also received one or two but nothing serious enough to report.

And then what happens?.I go and do exactly the same thing again. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

As Herter mentioned at the start of this thread sometimes we can get caught up in the general mood and post ill advised
comments.

I fully understand why editing rights have been removed but it is at times like that that you wish you could edit your posts.

Retaining a friendly and helpful attitude is not difficult and that is what I generally try to do.It will also help to keep
the forums an accessible and pleasant place to be.

This thread will simply help me to focus on why I registered in the first place.To help (when I can),for good,friendly
advice and to dicuss issues with the game.Clamping down on abuse can only be a good thing (however it is implemented)
and there have been some good ideas so far.I really enjoy these forums,particulary when I am actively playing the game,
and the last thing I want is a ban for some stupidly ill-advised comment that could easily have been avoided with a bit
of common sense and forward thinking.

Apologies for the long post http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gooner Steve
23-09-2007, 15:58
When I first joined it was a community and I spent more time reading in the forum than I did playing the game! I really miss the interaction with the SI staff, what I really enjoyed was being able to get an answer about the game from the person who actually implemented it.

Here are a couple of ideas I have;

* More bans but for shorter periods.
* More mods and more consistancy (theres a football term).
* I think the job of the mods would be made easier if the mods had no names. I think some mods I frightened to act against regular users, for a fear of being bullied themselves (which I have seen). Hope this makes sense!
* I have seen on another forum that they have a "thanks" button for helpful posts. Then it is displayed in there profile under there name. I think this would give an incentive to help people.
* As above maybe have a "no thanks" button. This would work instead of replying with a written post and this should be displayed in the same way as above.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 16:03
* I think the job of the mods would be made easier if the mods had no names. I think some mods I frightened to act against regular users, for a fear of being bullied themselves (which I have seen). Hope this makes sense!

Gooner. There is no way on Earth that any of the Mods in here are bullied by the regulars.

Apsolutely no bloomin way.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 16:16
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">* I think the job of the mods would be made easier if the mods had no names. I think some mods I frightened to act against regular users, for a fear of being bullied themselves (which I have seen). Hope this makes sense!

Gooner. There is no way on Earth that any of the Mods in here are bullied by the regulars.

Apsolutely no bloomin way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I second Jimbokavs sentiments.

thefootman
23-09-2007, 17:46
Originally posted by The Enforcer:
I'm undecided as to whether Kudos should be visible in the same way as Karma is.

On the one hand, it might be useful to know that you'd been marked down, as a learning process so as not to re-offend, or to highlight where you'd done good.

But on the other hand some users might get bigheaded and if people could see their ratings, there might be a temptation to post complaining about their score and lots of appeals to mods to arbitrate.

On balance, I would keep the Kudos ratings hidden to all but SI. That way, when the reward comes, it would be a pleasant surprise.

Both of your suggestions sound good to me.And if SI agree,I'm sure they could come up with something along those lines.
A lot of good ideas can get lost in the morass of threads.

Some will no doubt disagree on the grounds that some very good ideas may be overlooked from user's who can't contribute to the
exclusive thread.That's a possibility,of course.But the chances of that exist as it stands now.

I'm pretty sure that SI won't ignore the suggestions from the masses and simply concentrate on those from the select few,either.

Some people simply have a better insight into how to improve the game than others and if they are all providing regular feedback in
an exclusive thread then surely we all benefit with an even better game?.
http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

GoGa70
23-09-2007, 17:53
There are people from far away lands that don't speak very good english therefore text speaking makes communicating for those people even harder and is therefore and quite rightly so, not allowed.

I didn't say it should be allowed I just said it's too harsh.

The point of the board is communicating not bullying. This rule will be a direct bullying by admin/mods.

Personally I think the vast majority of bullying comes from so-called regulars who regard anyone who has a problem with the game as a loser.

I suggest a 5-day ban to whoever says 'It's your tactics' http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Kriss
23-09-2007, 18:03
A lot of good points and suggestions, they almost all point to a need for more effective moderation.

That's in no way a criticism of our current moderators, it suggests they're too few in numbers to me.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 18:34
Originally posted by GoGa70:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are people from far away lands that don't speak very good english therefore text speaking makes communicating for those people even harder and is therefore and quite rightly so, not allowed.

I didn't say it should be allowed I just said it's too harsh.

The point of the board is communicating not bullying. This rule will be a direct bullying by admin/mods.

Personally I think the vast majority of bullying comes from so-called regulars who regard anyone who has a problem with the game as a loser.

I suggest a 5-day ban to whoever says 'It's your tactics' http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you prefer that we lie to them?

The big one at the moment is "My defenders keep scoring own foals from 40 yards out! The game is cheating me!" I've stopped telling people that it's their tactics. That doesn't mean that it isn't their tactics because it damn well is! That doesn't make them a loser, it makes them stubborn and unyielding. If they don't want our opinions on why it is happening then they shouldn't ask. They do, so we tell them, but they don't like what they hear, so.......

The more I read your comment the more silly it appears. (Apologies if you are offended my that but it does seem silly to me). You think that a 1 day ban for breaking an existing rule is too harsh, yet you want to introduce a 5 day ban for answering someone's question in a valid and reasonable way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 18:51
Thats the other side of the coin as rightly alluded to by Jimbokov1971.

There are people who ask for help and then abuse us because they don't like the answer we give. This in turn leads to others wading in and predictably the thread about whatever they are talking about descends into people abusing each other.

Kriss
23-09-2007, 19:01
We don't need summary justice for every misdemeanour, good moderating usually persuades most people to do the right thing.

Persistent or deliberate offenders get dealt with eventually.

We do need to leave it to the moderators but we do need more of them.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 19:02
Originally posted by GoGa70:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are people from far away lands that don't speak very good english therefore text speaking makes communicating for those people even harder and is therefore and quite rightly so, not allowed.

I didn't say it should be allowed I just said it's too harsh.

The point of the board is communicating not bullying. This rule will be a direct bullying by admin/mods.

Personally I think the vast majority of bullying comes from so-called regulars who regard anyone who has a problem with the game as a loser.

I suggest a 5-day ban to whoever says 'It's your tactics' http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Telling someone its their tactics that have gone askew is still communicating. There are times when that's the plain truth. If someone comes in with a question and he gets the response "Its your tactics" instead of a constructive explanation then I'd say action needs to be taken. However if the OP continues to beleaguer his point and assert that there is something wrong with the game, then judgement needs to be used when someone says "Its your tactics".

We need to differentiate between the various kinds of posters.

a. The bullyboys who do nothing but harass users especially new users

b. Gamers who believe that the game has gone askew and want a better game

c. Generally constructive posters who come in to discuss about different aspects of the game

d. Posters who have a genuine problem that needs to be addressed immediately.

There are other kinds of posters too but those were the general kinds I've noticed

Handling group a, c, and d is easy. Its handling group b that's the challenge. Within this group there are two types:

Constructive/Destructive

Would having a separate sub-forum be the way to go for these people? Where a methodology is laid out for them to raise issues, much like what we do during beta-testing. The flip side of all this is that they will want everything they recommend to be implemented into the game.

Kriss
23-09-2007, 19:10
But we have the appropriate sub forums, people will always come to GQ because they get the biggest audience here.

How many time have you seen "I posted on the bugs forum but nobody answered"?

Another sub forum will just mean another place to direct people to from here.

The problem is bad behaviour, the solution is policing but policing isn't a black and white thing, it's "using the minimum force needed"

To do it properly needs more man hours spent on it.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 19:11
Originally posted by Dayle Wood:
Thats the other side of the coin as rightly alluded to by Jimbokov1971.

There are people who ask for help and then abuse us because they don't like the answer we give. This in turn leads to others wading in and predictably the thread about whatever they are talking about descends into people abusing each other.

I agree with that sentiment. There are plenty of good posters who make the effort to help people out, some go through the effort of writing long threads to explain a certain point. But in trying to help people they sometimes get lambasted and end up having to defend the game, before you know it descends to namecalling. I for one don't tolerate that in the tactics and training forum and I tend to take action against people who make things too far.

Hijacking of brilliant threads for the sake of complaining about the game is also done, and I find that very saddening at times.

We need to protect the forums and ensure that we have some form of quality control. Asking someone to be constructive is a major challenge because people have different yardsticks for determining what is a constructive argument.

I believe that more needs to be and can be done to ensure that the quality posters stay or return.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 19:14
Originally posted by Kriss:
But we have the appropriate sub forums, people will always come to GQ because they get the biggest audience here.

How many time have you seen "I posted on the bugs forum but nobody answered"?

Another sub forum will just mean another place to direct people to from here.

The problem is bad behaviour, the solution is policing but policing isn't a black and white thing, it's "using the minimum force needed"

To do it properly needs more man hours spent on it.

I agree let's face the facts. We can be unduly harsh on people for posting something in GQ. There are times when there aren't a lot of people around O in all the forums except for OTF and GQ.

Some sense needs to be used, and its perfectly understandable why someone would post here instead of in the Editors Hideaway for instance. Remember, to someone that could be a major problem that needs to be addressed immediately.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 19:17
Originally posted by rashidi1:
Asking someone to be constructive is a major challenge because people have different yardsticks for determining what is a constructive argument.
It comes down to people showing respect and maturity on here. Not always in abundance sadly.

muncherdave
23-09-2007, 19:20
To be honest i dont like the idea of karma or any other reward system. If, for example, the user that has the highest amount of karma on the entire site one day breaks a rule they should be punished in the same manner as the lowest, so it makes the whole system a little pointless other than rewarding people for being decent on the forum, which is how they should be anyway.

Do we really need treats to be nice people here, isn't the gratification of helping another user when they are in trouble enough? And is it going to make a big difference in stopping the real issue (abuse)?

Strict guidelines on what are and are not acceptable are necessary here I feel, I'm sure once they get laid down some regular users would help by reporting posts like they have with other rulebreakings. The main problem is where to draw the line however, a lot of things like sarcasm can be misinterpreted because its just in text form when the users intent may actually be innocent and humourous, and before you know it every thread has a post that could be seen to be abusive when they are tongue in cheek.

Oh, and if people are going to be complaining they haven't seen whatever new rules you are going to put in place, you could always just do a mass email or private message, with whatever rule(s) come from this issue and maybe all the other rules as a reminder in there. People have no excuse to have not seen them then.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 19:25
To a large extent I'd agree with muncherdave's sentiments. Rules and rules and people need to understand these rules when they sign up.

I have come across posters on other forums who have said hey intend to create a "firestorm" here to get a reaction from SI, and we need to be alert to all this as well.

Generally we need to tighten up on misbehaving members and the punishment should be the same regardless of karma points.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 19:26
Its usually pretty east to distinguish sarcasm from genuine abuse though. There can be some leeway with sarcasm if there is some doubt... perhaps just a verbal warning.

Actual abuse though is the biggest issue.

As for the whole karma thing and equality with the way people are treated thats fair enough, however people that have been on here a long time have a history and therefore the mods will know generally if that person is abusive as a matter of their character.

The newer folk don't have that history so it is harder to ascertain whether they are genuine or not.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 19:39
rashidi What I've noticed over the last year or so is that people are being drawn away from GQ and I must admit that it sometimes takes a bit of a special effort to get me back in.

The challenge forum seemed like a good idea at the time, but what it has done is take a small nucleus of posters away from GQ and now many of them only post in the dafuge/Gundo thread, or at least post most often only in them. Those 2 threads have almost become a microcosm of the whole forum. Each is moderated by the thread starter, (and other regulars), and there is never any problem. What they say goes, and if you don't like it, post somewhere else. The threads are very open and can be off-topic but both are soooooooo friendly compared to the rest of the forum. Interestingly, many of the people who have been accused of being "forum police" in the past, frequent these 2 threads, but don't often post in GQ anymore.

Now I appreciate that this isn't what you want as a Mod and it certainly isn't in the best interests of SI or the forum as a whole, but I'm honestly not sure how you go about rectifying the situation.

I NEVER venture into T&TGF because that's part of the battle for me, and if I was to do so, it would ruin the game for me. For the same reason I have never been into GPG forum or the Editors hideaway. I used to post in the FMS forum before Eve had her breakdown all them years ago, but non longer go in there either. I'm not the sort of person that has a desire to post much about stuff other than FM so the OTF is out for me. That leaves me with LLM, (which is idyllic), GQ, (which is anything but), and dafuge and Gundo's thread in the challenge forum, (which is almost like a secret hideaway.

I'm not sure what I'm suggesting here, I'm really just typing as i'm thinking. It's just frustrating that parts of the forum work so well and others so poorly.

I suppose when it comes down to it there needs to be a line drawn. SI need to spell out what is and isn't acceptable and have to be willing and able to enforce those rulings. Until they do that we can all talk as much as we want about a direction or a carding system or anything else.

I'm guessing that this whole conversation has been partly brought up by the general poor shape of GQ, (and SI's desire to get info about their product to the masses), but I'm also sure the guy who topped himself after abuse in a forum a couple of weeks ago is fresh in many peoples minds.

I don't think there needs to be a Karma system of any other system.

There need to be clear and distinct rules and they need to be enforced. End of.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 19:43
The guy that toped himself wasn't part of SI forums though was he?

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 19:44
I was gonna post a joke that it was Ackter after all the abuse he has received over the last year or so, but as that is in poor taste I won't http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif.

GoGa70
23-09-2007, 19:54
The more I read your comment the more silly it appears. (Apologies if you are offended my that but it does seem silly to me). You think that a 1 day ban for breaking an existing rule is too harsh, yet you want to introduce a 5 day ban for answering someone's question in a valid and reasonable way .

LOL I meant to show the silliness of it alright, just like I thought banning for textspeak is. Sorry if you didn't get my sarcasm http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

GoGa70
23-09-2007, 20:00
The big one at the moment is "My defenders keep scoring own foals from 40 yards out! The game is cheating me!" I've stopped telling people that it's their tactics. That doesn't mean that it isn't their tactics because it damn well is! That doesn't make them a loser, it makes them stubborn and unyielding. If they don't want our opinions on why it is happening then they shouldn't ask. They do, so we tell them, but they don't like what they hear, so.......


Personally I don't believe scoring 40 yards own-goals should be tactics. The problem with the game is lack of transparency - unless you have serious time on your hands you can't figure out exactly what a certain combination of settings leads to. Hence the frustration. And ****ed posters. Make tactical module simpler - or make a good tutorial along the lines of you pick short passing/ high time wasting the defenders will start passing back to the GK and score own goals.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 20:02
this is a thread about member behaviour on the forums mate.

Ackter
23-09-2007, 20:15
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
I was gonna post a joke that it was Ackter after all the abuse he has received over the last year or so, but as that is in poor taste I won't http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif.

In the words of Ted - "Boing flip".

Do you honestly think any abuse I've received actually effects me?

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 20:16
No, not for a minute. But that doesn't mean it doesn't bother me.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 20:20
Originally posted by GoGa70:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The big one at the moment is "My defenders keep scoring own foals from 40 yards out! The game is cheating me!" I've stopped telling people that it's their tactics. That doesn't mean that it isn't their tactics because it damn well is! That doesn't make them a loser, it makes them stubborn and unyielding. If they don't want our opinions on why it is happening then they shouldn't ask. They do, so we tell them, but they don't like what they hear, so.......


Personally I don't believe scoring 40 yards own-goals should be tactics. The problem with the game is lack of transparency - unless you have serious time on your hands you can't figure out exactly what a certain combination of settings leads to. Hence the frustration. And ****ed posters. Make tactical module simpler - or make a good tutorial along the lines of you pick short passing/ high time wasting the defenders will start passing back to the GK and score own goals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You haven't got serious time on your hands so I will make it quick and easy.

Increase the attacking mentality slider for both you full-backs oast half way and you should reduce this a lot. Allow them more creative freedom and you will reduce it further still. Tell them to hit long balls and you will diminsh it almost completely when done in comjunction with the other two.

Now that wasn't too hard was it?

thefootman
23-09-2007, 20:38
A lot of fair points here.As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread I've dropped a little sarcasm in from time
to time without intending any real malice.To an extent this can be remedied with the winking smiley icon (to show
you're only joking) but it can easily be forgotten when posting.

Other than an immediate apology (if any unintended offence has been given),there's no going back once you've pressed
the Post Now button.And unless you hang around you often don't see the fallout from it all until you go back the next day.

We don't want to kill off the humour element within the forums (although sarcasm is admittedly the lowest form of wit).

It can easily be misunderstood and could turn a thread into a battleground of tit for tat abuse.But sometimes people
just don't think before they post (and,on occasions,I include myself among them).

Personally,I am taking this thread very seriously as I do not want to be associated with dumbing down the very forums
that I enjoy (for the most part) reading and occasionally contributing to.

Sadly there will always be people who come on with the intention of sparking a response and then get banned immediately.
I'm convinced some of them know exactly what they are doing and the consequences that will result.And they no doubt find
it extremely funny.

It isn't.

The fact that this thread was started at all is an indication of the concern over forum behaviour so let's hope most of
the members (and prospective members) read it and learn from it.

GoGa70
23-09-2007, 20:42
Now that wasn't too hard was it?

no that was simple and informative (if it only worked http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

But I'm mostly referring to people who say nothing but it's your tactics. And there are alot of them here.

GoGa70
23-09-2007, 20:45
this is a thread about member behaviour on the forums mate.

Yes, I'm aware of that but 'It's your tactics' response is quite common and oftentimes silly because alot of people use it without any intention of helping.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 20:55
Originally posted by GoGa70:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">this is a thread about member behaviour on the forums mate.

Yes, I'm aware of that but 'It's your tactics' response is quite common and oftentimes silly because alot of people use it without any intention of helping. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well thats a tough one I suppose. Some people start threads that are thinly veiled whinging threads about some great conspirousy within the game. These self-pitying people want to blame anything but themselves and while just saying 'it's your tactics' isn't very helpful, it is in fact the actual answer!

Personally I don't just say that - I try and help. But these sort of threads are like fuel for the people who become abusive.

Jimbokav1971
23-09-2007, 21:15
Originally posted by GoGa70:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now that wasn't too hard was it?

no that was simple and informative (if it only worked http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

But I'm mostly referring to people who say nothing but it's your tactics. And there are alot of them here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GoGa. I am one of those. If they ask me to explain I'm only too willing to go into detail. Unfortunately people don't want to do that, EVER.

I used to go into great detail in each post and I found that I was being ignored and they were just carrying on the rant regardless.

Now I tell them it's their tactics and if they ask me to go into more detail I do.

I have conceded 2 goals from back-passes in the last 5(ish) seasons.

thomit
23-09-2007, 21:31
Honestly, Miles and the rest; I don't think the standard in these forums are any worse than other forums of the same kind.
Granted, there are quite a few posts that are pointless and/or abusive - that's where a sufficiently sized mod squad comes into play, I think. Really - I find quite a few people in general to be pointless and/or abusive, so no wonder it will reflect in the forums.

Also, taking the demographic of this game's users into account; Can we really expect 10 - 12 year olds to be concise, articulate and argumentative? Always? And use proper english? Even the mods, who I expect are a bit older, are not always that good at it.

Yes, the forums are in need of a cleaning up - but I can't really see any other way than expanding the mod squad. And the mods should ALWAYS give the reasons why they are mod'ing something, so that the culprits are educated.

The best way to deal with pointless people is to ignore them - simply don't answer their postings (exceptions the mods, of course).

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 21:56
Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
I was gonna post a joke that it was Ackter after all the abuse he has received over the last year or so, but as that is in poor taste I won't http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif.

In the words of Ted - "Boing flip".

Do you honestly think any abuse I've received actually effects me? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ackter lives with a plate of armour http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 21:57
Originally posted by GoGa70:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The big one at the moment is "My defenders keep scoring own foals from 40 yards out! The game is cheating me!" I've stopped telling people that it's their tactics. That doesn't mean that it isn't their tactics because it damn well is! That doesn't make them a loser, it makes them stubborn and unyielding. If they don't want our opinions on why it is happening then they shouldn't ask. They do, so we tell them, but they don't like what they hear, so.......


Personally I don't believe scoring 40 yards own-goals should be tactics. The problem with the game is lack of transparency - unless you have serious time on your hands you can't figure out exactly what a certain combination of settings leads to. Hence the frustration. And ****ed posters. Make tactical module simpler - or make a good tutorial along the lines of you pick short passing/ high time wasting the defenders will start passing back to the GK and score own goals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're not discussing tactics here. There's another forum for that.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 22:00
Originally posted by thefootman:


We don't want to kill off the humour element within the forums (although sarcasm is admittedly the lowest form of wit).



I wholeheartedly agree, we had some real personalities and still do. We need to ensure that we maintain that rich diversity and not encumber it with too rigid a code. Having said that we need to ensure that good behavior is encouraged and bad one discouraged. A line then needs to be drawn between those who make genuine mistakes and those who continually flout the rules. For those that do the latter...post mod them or ban them. Its a lot of work to do, perhaps we need to tougher before we can relax

FrazT
23-09-2007, 22:49
Just had a thought to try and ensure that all new threads are reasonable-

After you click on New/Discussion and before you type in your thread title, what about a couple of questions which require a yes/no answer before the thread is allowed? No answers, no thread.

For example:
If you are asking a question, have you searched to see if it has been asked before?
Is your thread relevant to the General Questions Forum?
Is your thread relevant to the current FM game?

There may be other relevant questions but these are for example only. This will not stop all nonsense getting through but will at least make posters aware that the quality of their threrad is thought about before they post it.

Dayle Wood
23-09-2007, 22:52
super idea - if they can do it.

rashidi1
23-09-2007, 23:08
Originally posted by FrazT:
Just had a thought to try and ensure that all new threads are reasonable-

After you click on New/Discussion and before you type in your thread title, what about a couple of questions which require a yes/no answer before the thread is allowed? No answers, no thread.

For example:
If you are asking a question, have you searched to see if it has been asked before?
Is your thread relevant to the General Questions Forum?
Is your thread relevant to the current FM game?

There may be other relevant questions but these are for example only. This will not stop all nonsense getting through but will at least make posters aware that the quality of their threrad is thought about before they post it.

I dunno, don't think its possible. Kris should know more. Having said that, are we then dumbing the forums down too much? People will get around that quite easily with the quickposts.

At the end of the day, people still need to learn the fineprint. Is behaviour on the forums any different from behaviour at home or at work. The problem here is that we have a group of people who feel enpowered behind a computer screen, and its this group that needs to be sorted out.

The forum works well, in fact the bad stuff if you want to call it that, really transpired after FM06. I have a motto: Anything can be done if you put your mind to it, we only need to ask ourselves whether we want to pay the price.

FrazT
23-09-2007, 23:48
rashidi1- I am not aware of whether this is possible or not and off course it will not stop all silliness BUT it is a bit like having a burglar alarm on the outside of your house. This will not stop a professional thief who has targetted your house because he will get in one way or the other. It will , however, stop the casusl thief who is just passing who will then go somewhere else.

Education of all posters whether it be newbies or old hands is what is required along with more constant and perhaps more disciplined moderating. You and Cleon make the Tactics Forum a place where only sensible discussions are around because you are, by neccessity, fairly ruthless and no-one who uses the forum regularly objects to that- the idiots will come in once, get a shock and then leave unless they are prepared to abide by the rules. This is what needs to happen in GQ

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 00:35
Originally posted by FrazT:
rashidi1- I am not aware of whether this is possible or not and off course it will not stop all silliness BUT it is a bit like having a burglar alarm on the outside of your house. This will not stop a professional thief who has targetted your house because he will get in one way or the other. It will , however, stop the casusl thief who is just passing who will then go somewhere else.

Education of all posters whether it be newbies or old hands is what is required along with more constant and perhaps more disciplined moderating. You and Cleon make the Tactics Forum a place where only sensible discussions are around because you are, by neccessity, fairly ruthless and no-one who uses the forum regularly objects to that- the idiots will come in once, get a shock and then leave unless they are prepared to abide by the rules. This is what needs to happen in GQ

I'd agree but once again we need to use good judgement. Many of these posters don't even use english as a first language, others live in Ireland where Internet connectivity isn't that great. What need is a) greater understanding from all users and b) perhaps even a probation period for users who fail to walk the walk.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 00:36
meant to say "toe the line" how "walk the walk" came about I dunno....

playmaker
24-09-2007, 01:56
When I first came onto this forum one of the things I really liked was the continual in depth discussion of the games features and how to improve them. The big threads (Dave C's twenty something page dosier) sparked other users, such as myself to post similar or related ideas. It really felt like the comminity was part of the design process.

Sure, we complained about the same ideas being posted ten times on the same day, but I would actually take that over what we have now.

There are a couple contributory factors, in my opinion.

1. The 'Wishlist' thread. It is a very well intentioned thread, designed to keep some of the aforementioned clutter off the forum. However, new users are arriving on the forum believeing that a one line suggestion with no further debate is the norm, instead of coming into the now virtuallu extinct 'big idea threads' and contributing there.

For my part, I tried really hard around the turn of the year to post lots of in depth ideas, but most fell off the first page within a day with little debate. I also tried to respond to many idea threads myself to keep them going. It was futile.

Now nothing falls off the front page quickly, because even with no response it can take two or three days. Four years ago it could take two or three hours.

2. The demise of The Bootroom. It set the tone and provided fuel for debate and many newcomers will have come through the main website before joining the forum. That said, for my part, the last article I wrote was a mistake and angered a lot of people - a really horrible way to bow out.

If there is any furture for TBR then it needs to concentrate on SI's games and not general football articles - there are plent of sites that do that already.

Arsenal71
24-09-2007, 02:14
No one listens, has respect, decipline, and most people want a quick fix and cannot be bothered to try or work things out on their own anymore, its society unfortunatly.

FrazT
24-09-2007, 02:48
Originally posted by rashidi1:
meant to say "toe the line" how "walk the walk" came about I dunno....

Personally I blame the Government, society and too much calcium in the school milk! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

kennec
24-09-2007, 02:52
good idea miles.

i usealy hang around in tavtics section couse its superbly moderated and alot of talk about the game and tactics.i barely read the other sections on the forum.

i loved ehm07 but i am very sad that that part of the forum is totaly dead.

kennec
24-09-2007, 02:54
tactics.............

Super Bladesman
24-09-2007, 03:06
I'm also in the same position as many of the longer-term members - I used to enjoy coming on here and going out of my way to help someone new to the forums, but now they've become such a negative place that the banter has been lost and replaced with bile.

T&Cs are needed, along with a stonger and more numerous mod squad.

Chilliconcarnie
24-09-2007, 03:21
I've onlyt had time to read the first couple of pages but here is my 2 cents:

1) As gav mentioned, the FM forums need designated moderators. I miss Smiley Dan. People like Dave C, gavnoble and dafuge would make excellent candidates, especially Dave C. Before I took a sabbatical from the game (too much WoW...), I was in the mind where it would not surprise me if Dave ended up a full time employee of SI :P But obviously any choices would have to be seriously considered. Has to be at least 2 or 3 with one from the states so that more time zones are covered.

2) Some kind of brief FAQ on forum sign up. Something that coudl fit easily without having to scroll to see the rest of the FAQ, summerising something like "Please make contructive posts" "Any info will be posted up in the foums clear for you to see" etc.
Then maybe a stickied thread at the top called "Demo, Release Dates and other useful information." Which will be a locked thread containing updates about the current games out, where to get demo's and patches. Then with something at the end with information about the next game even if it is "Details on FM2010 will be released when they are ready. Any forthcoming demo's and game release dates will be announced AS SOON AS THEY ARE AVAILABLE" or maybe in bold instead of caps... or something.

3) I like the karma idea but maybe it will not quite fit the structure of the forum... Can such a thing be applied to only a set collection of forums within the main board? I am just thinking for those who participate in holiday/sigh ups and stories.

Arsenal71
24-09-2007, 03:26
Originally posted by Super Bladesman:
I'm also in the same position as many of the longer-term members - I used to enjoy coming on here and going out of my way to help someone new to the forums, but now they've become such a negative place that the banter has been lost and replaced with bile.

T&Cs are needed, along with a stonger and more numerous mod squad.

I condure, a more proactive approach in terms of mod numbers is needed.

Ter
24-09-2007, 03:32
Maybe this could work on the basis of a specific invite from SI to those with the highest Kudos to a specialist thread to discuss an aspect of FM that the team are currently working on (and possibly have reached a sticking point with). There are benefits for both sides here. These members gain from having a direct opportunity to influemce (an albeit small) part of the game development process and SI gain from being able to get specific fanbase input from trusted individuals, rather than having to wade through pages on the off-chance they might find something constructive.

We've done this in the past and will no doubt do it again in the future.

gavnoble
24-09-2007, 03:59
The one thing I would hope is that whatever SI do decide with regards to this forum that they have some of the solutions in place before FM 2008 is released, as this is by far the busiest time of the year and also the time when things need the most moderating due to the multiple 'What time is the patch out?' threads that are posted etc. It's also when the most fights seem to break out so having a moderating team onboard to kick off FM 2008 I think should be a priority in order to nip things in the bud so to speak.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 04:26
Originally posted by gavnoble:
The one thing I would hope is that whatever SI do decide with regards to this forum that they have some of the solutions in place before FM 2008 is released, as this is by far the busiest time of the year and also the time when things need the most moderating due to the multiple 'What time is the patch out?' threads that are posted etc. It's also when the most fights seem to break out so having a moderating team onboard to kick off FM 2008 I think should be a priority in order to nip things in the bud so to speak.

Between the moderators there's a kind of unspoken rule where we try and step in as much as we can to help out. Just so happens this also coincides with financial year end budgets for most of us as well. Its a busy time. I'm fairly certain the mods will make themselves available. There's usually a mod around on the forums most times, but you're right upon release the load on the forums will become heavy and this will require more vigilance.

Despite the discussions happening here there are still pointless threads being opened.

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 04:33
Despite the discussions happening here there are still pointless threads being opened.

You can't really be surprised.

To be honest, I'm surprised by how much of an impact the thread has had already, (or maybe I'm just imagining it).

Ter
24-09-2007, 04:37
One thing that I don't understand is users reporting posts in closed threads. Surely they must realise that the topic has been closed therefore a moderator has seen it and dealt with it as they see fit.

It just wastes our time completely having to deal with the report after we've already dealt with something.

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 04:42
Originally posted by Ter:
One thing that I don't understand is users reporting posts in closed threads. Surely they must realise that the topic has been closed therefore a moderator has seen it and dealt with it as they see fit.

It just wastes our time completely having to deal with the report after we've already dealt with something.

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Maybe the reporter assumed you had missed what they reported because despite flagrant abuse of the rules, again no card was issued, just thread closed.

I know that's what I think.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 04:44
I think awareness is good.

Furthermore if people become aware that good behaviour has its rewards then people will incline towards behaving themselves. At the end of the day the human soul is driven by greed. You can say whatever you want, the moment a person finds out that a certain behavior has rewards he will change.

The challenge has always been identifying these rewards.

So far there have been a few, I think more are needed including an exclusive forum where people are invited in for discussions with SI for game development. A venue where good ideas are thrashed out and where people feel they have contributed towards the development of the game. Its a win-win situation for both parties.

This forum cannot be isolated to people with high karma. People need to earn the right to post there, and that should come from a monthly awards system for good behavior.

There are already some notably good posters here who do their best to help..you don't have to look far..FrazT, Asmodeus, wwwfan, Amaroq, Dave C, Ackter...just to name a few...there used to be a heck of a lot more but everyone is wearing a helmet now and keeping low.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 04:46
Originally posted by Ter:
One thing that I don't understand is users reporting posts in closed threads. Surely they must realise that the topic has been closed therefore a moderator has seen it and dealt with it as they see fit.

It just wastes our time completely having to deal with the report after we've already dealt with something.

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Sometimes the emails we get for content alerts can be very petty as well.

chopper99
24-09-2007, 04:48
Glad to see this is being raised as a serious issue. I'm another person who, when I started on the forums, frequently visited GQ and there were some good threads going on in there.

I now stay in the tactics forum mostly. And this has a lot to do with the modding in there I think. I don't know if it's just because people get away with less or what, but there just seems to be less pontless posting in there.

Although even in there lately you've got a couple of people whose only aim is to hijack perfectly good threads and turn them into'this game cheats threads'. It's these people that annoy me lately because no matter how many different ways people try to help them, and how many different ways we try to explain that other people manage to have realistic success on this game, they simply cannot accept the possibility that maybe they are just doing something wrong. And it's things like this that gets people annoyed. Everyone's all for having constructive debates about the shortcomings of the game, and everyone will have areas of the game they think can be improved but some people just seem to think that saying 'look at all these shots I had without scoring, the game cheats I don't care what you say' is the basis for a constructive debate. So for anyone who says they're sick of hearing 'it's your tactics' then I say that this response has only come about from people who normally try to help becoming sick of certain members not wanting to hear any advice, they just want everyone to agree that the game cheats and they're right and that's that. It's this that has you reaching for the *bangs head against wall* smiley. http://www.hfboards.com/images/smilies/bangHead.gif

Now, as for GQ. I don't actually think there are too many harsh replies to newer members posting a question, even if it's been asked a thousand times before (there are a small number of people who do think that attacking a newer member for this is acceptable however, and they should be reprimanded for unwarrented criticism). I personally think it's all based on the tone of the poster and their reply to being asked to not post in text speak or caps, or to post in the correct forum. Many newer members of GQ these days seem to have a kind of 'why should I' attitude. There are some who realise they've made a small error and go onto follow the rules and these members are always treated well by the more senior forum members.
In my opinion, for the most part, it's generally only people who bring it on themselves who come in for any kind of unfriendly treatment, but perhaps even this should be just left to the mods.

I think it just frustrates people who have followed the rules and enjoyed taking part in this forum when people come on, are determined to either not read the rules or not bother following them, and then just get away with it and decrease everyones enjoyment.

Personally I feel the rules that are currently in place are fine, they just need enforcing a whole lot more. Anyone who's been asked by a moderator to read the rules and then continues to ignore them should be harshly dealt with.

I also think the stickies, and the fact that you should read them before posting, should be made much more obvious somehow. I also think the search function should be made more obvious and improved.

Frankie 7
24-09-2007, 04:55
The challenge forum seemed like a good idea at the time, but what it has done is take a small nucleus of posters away from

I for one don't think Kudos would work here. it would only cause unrest between members. Some members might feel that they are getting alienated just because no one bothered rating them. Not everyone will bother to rate other members. This is a hard one to figure out and most likely this could be discussed until the end of time and still the same answers will come out by each person.
The feeling it seems after reading the posts here is that more staff is needed for these forums. The guys just now are under more pressure because of all these stupid bullying tactics by others and they need help. Simple as that really.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 04:56
Thought I'd add in the smiley for you....I agree on the search function and the fact that it could be improved further.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 05:04
Here's an idea..instead of kudos..the moment someone fails respect the forum rules, we issue a yellow card.

The fact that you have a yellow card will deny you access rights to certain forums, and these could be the exclusive forums.

Judicious use of warnings will have to be followed and in this case, we don't need to use kudos cos in all fairness, its hard to rate people all the time.

We need to be strict.

chopper99
24-09-2007, 05:09
Originally posted by rashidi1:
Thought I'd add in the smiley for you....I agree on the search function and the fact that it could be improved further.

Cheers, that's the one. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

chopper99
24-09-2007, 05:11
Originally posted by rashidi1:
Here's an idea..instead of kudos..the moment someone fails respect the forum rules, we issue a yellow card.

The fact that you have a yellow card will deny you access rights to certain forums, and these could be the exclusive forums.

Judicious use of warnings will have to be followed and in this case, we don't need to use kudos cos in all fairness, its hard to rate people all the time.

We need to be strict.

And I agree with this totally. Strictness is they way to go, not more understanding for people who can't be bothered to read and follow what is a pretty basic set of rules.

That doesn't mean I condone people jumping on the backs of someone as soon as they've posted, but I can understand how it can be frustrating when the same people continue to post pointless things and/or break rules.

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 05:12
Has the World gone mad?

What you are suggesting is rewarding people for normal behaviour.

Has it really gone that far that you feel incapable of moderating the forum without a carrot dangling on a stick to entice people to behave themselves.

1. Decide what the rules are going to be and set them out clearly for all to see.

2. If someone breaks a small rule, issue them with a warning. If they break it again, ban them forever.

3. If someone breaks a serious rule then that's it, ban them there and then forever.

It's this nicey nicey approach where threads get closed and no action taken, that has left the forum in the carp state that it's currently in. I think the problem is that SI don't want to ban people because they are their target audiance, and alienating potential customers is just plain stupid. Well SI need to decide what they want to do and then do it.

I've lost count of the number of times in this thread where people have said that the only thing that needs to be done in here is enforce the existing rules.

The nicey nicey approach will not work.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 05:20
I'm not recommending a nicey nicey approach, just an approach where there's a price to be paid for not following the forum rules, where a yellow card leads to suspension from entering some forums.

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 05:36
I didn't mean "you" as in "you Rashidi". I meant everyone. Sorry.

Look, I have linked already to threads on the same subject started at about this time last year.

Rashidi, there is already a price to pay for not following the rules. The ONLY problem is that those rules are enforced all too infrequently. It's not the penalty for breaking the rules that needs to be changed, it's whether or not the penalty is enforced in the first place.

medievalist
24-09-2007, 05:37
I think Jimbo's analysis is essentially correct. If you're wondering why posters seem to be avoiding GQ or are making impatient replies it is because very often GQ is *not* an interesting series of discussions about the game, it is a wall of nonsense.

I realize people have the right to ask when the demo is out, but when they ask immediately after the question was answered, to me that is not reasonable, that is sheer laziness. It's a nice idea to think 'Oh, let them post their question' but if you then wonder why GQ is either avoided or typified by increasingly impatient posting then to me the answer is clear. It will only be a good forum if you keep the nonsense out.

Creating a more complex ban system will not do anything. What is needed is a system of clear rules that are uniformly enforced. That can (and should) include backseat moderating. But when someone starts the eleventy-hundredth new thread about when the game is out, it should be locked with a comment from a moderator that the answer is in the sticky threads.

Maybe that means more moderators are needed to keep up with the forum. If the rules don't seem to be enforced, or are unevenly enforced, then people will take things into their own hands which is what you want to avoid.

The other side of that is that a forum with a bad signal/noise ratio will turn people off. The solution here is efficient moderating too.

God, what a long post. I apologize.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 05:42
Apologies aren't needed.

I'm all in favour of being more strict. I try to temper that with good sense, and if we want this forum to return to its glory days I for one tend to agree...we need to get more strict.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 05:44
I think that we should extend the use of banning for bad behavior. If someone continually flouts the rules and then proceeds to use foul language. Let's send him on its way.

Hitesh
24-09-2007, 05:47
Jsut seen this thread and read some of the comments but here is what I think on the whole matter and sorry if some are repeated.

I used to post on these forums quite a while back and really enjoyed it but as Miles has said, its gotten a nasty. I think the best things to do is give warnings out to people who make these sly, nasty and irrelevant comments. Have a set procedure to handle these comments and with the aid of more mods, send emails to the offenders explaining what they have done wrong and what the rules are.

Have something like >
First time = Warning with reminder about rules
Second time = Yellow Card - Same as above and restriction on posting for 24 hours/posting in some forums
Third time = Red card - Ban

Simple as. People should realise after the first warning, espcially if they are given a description of where they have gone wrong.

Also, for the mods, (not sure if this exists) but they have an area where they can see more details about warnings - ie: when a mod warns a person, they add it to a list and provide a description as to why they were warned. This means that when a mod is looking to warn the same person again for a different offense, they can check what the last warning is for.

This then brings me onto the length of warning. So all the users know, there needs to be some kind of set length for a yellow card. I think that the first warning should last 3-6 months depending on severity. They 6-year for a yellow card..maybe longer depending on the offense.

When i first joined the forums, there were SI staff and "respected" mods on some forums and it gave more of a controlled forum and a much better place.

I think people should use common sense and give other users respect and those who dont, get punished accordingly.

Glyn
24-09-2007, 05:51
Originally posted by Hitesh:
Also, for the mods, (not sure if this exists) but they have an area where they can see more details about warnings - ie: when a mod warns a person, they add it to a list and provide a description as to why they were warned. This means that when a mod is looking to warn the same person again for a different offense, they can check what the last warning is for.

We can place notes in every user's account details. When someone is warned/carded/banned etc. a note is made there and can be seen anytime that user's account is accesed by a mod.

Glyn
24-09-2007, 05:55
Originally posted by rashidi1:
I think that we should extend the use of banning for bad behavior. If someone continually flouts the rules and then proceeds to use foul language. Let's send him on its way.

Having said that, we have been asked by SI to consider banning someone the last resort - ie if there is hope that a user can be educated to be a good user, give them the opportunity. So it's a case of finding the correct balance. However, with piracy and obvious trolling/winding-up/troublemaking users they ain't worth the effort in my view.

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 06:09
we have been asked by SI to consider banning someone the last resort

And herein lies the problem.

Either this is a community based on-line forum or it is an advertising tool for a Company. I know I'm being a bit negative whenI say that, but I knew all along that was the case. It's so obvious from the wording that the SI guys use.

So now at least we have got to the root of the problem.

BBB
24-09-2007, 06:16
BBB feels his yellow card was unfair http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

status - unhappy

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 06:30
Originally posted by Glyn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:
I think that we should extend the use of banning for bad behavior. If someone continually flouts the rules and then proceeds to use foul language. Let's send him on its way.

Having said that, we have been asked by SI to consider banning someone the last resort - ie if there is hope that a user can be educated to be a good user, give them the opportunity. So it's a case of finding the correct balance. However, with piracy and obvious trolling/winding-up/troublemaking users they ain't worth the effort in my view. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand that, but in all honesty, we ban people for talking bout piracy but we don't ban others for using sometimes really obscene language. Two standards if you ask me.