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Peacemaker7
24-09-2007, 06:37
Yes but I can understand why SI wouldn't people being banned left right and centre. Some people should be banned because there is simply no hope for them, but you can usually spot these kinds of people from the off.

Other people may get off to a bad start, and end up being decent posters if they are given a bit of time and patience, not just from the mods but also from the more established users of the forum. It's not just up to moderators to ensure forums run smoothly that just a lazy user base.

People will ask annoying, repetitive questions on here. There is nothing can be done about that, because in general this is the first forum where new, enthusiastic people will flock - before the really clever ones end up in FMS or LLM. Patience is the key.

There is of course a huge difference between a new user who naively asks a question which to them is something new and interesting yet to others has been asked a million times before, and the kind of user who just posts to cause disruption.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 06:46
I'm all in favour for showing patience to people for being repetitive or perhaps even for missing out on reading the forum rules, in all honesty though, I sometimes find it hard to accept abuse and derogatory remarks. There are some who post racist remarks and then abuse other forum members for not sharing their point of view. There has to be a limit somewhere.

Good behavior rewarded, and bad punished. Temperance is the key of course and good sense has to prevail, which is why we have a warning system in place.

medievalist
24-09-2007, 06:47
Originally posted by Peacemaker7:Y
People will ask annoying, repetitive questions on here. There is nothing can be done about that, because in general this is the first forum where new, enthusiastic people will flock - before the really clever ones end up in FMS or LLM. Patience is the key.


If that's going to be the accepted state of affairs then the answer to Rashidi's question about why quality posters avoid GQ will be an easy one: because it is filled with nonsense.

If SI doesn't want to take action against lazy new posters - even by just rapidly and consistently locking the threads - and other posters disciplined for their frustrations then GQ will, in my opinion, become empty in a hurry.

I think SI needs to tackle both sides of the issue. They need to cut down on the backseat moderating and hostile posts, but they also need to address the behavior that is causing those posts. Prompt, consistent enforcement of the rules will do that.

Oz
24-09-2007, 06:48
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
Has the World gone mad?

What you are suggesting is rewarding people for normal behaviour.

Has it really gone that far that you feel incapable of moderating the forum without a carrot dangling on a stick to entice people to behave themselves.

1. Decide what the rules are going to be and set them out clearly for all to see.

2. If someone breaks a small rule, issue them with a warning. If they break it again, ban them forever.

3. If someone breaks a serious rule then that's it, ban them there and then forever.

It's this nicey nicey approach where threads get closed and no action taken, that has left the forum in the carp state that it's currently in. I think the problem is that SI don't want to ban people because they are their target audiance, and alienating potential customers is just plain stupid. Well SI need to decide what they want to do and then do it.

I've lost count of the number of times in this thread where people have said that the only thing that needs to be done in here is enforce the existing rules.

The nicey nicey approach will not work.

you aren't serious, are you? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Do ypu want to be the only person on the forum?

If people make a couple of mistakes, and do stupid stuff, so be it. Banning them straight away, or after 1 warning, for something like swearing or posting in the wrong forum is just ridiculous. Give them a chance and maybe they'll learn and will become decent posters.

I think you've gone waaaaay over the top with all this - ignoring 300 people, and wanting people banned so quickly? you need to chill out a little - its only a forum, for goodness sake.

Hitesh
24-09-2007, 06:48
Something that has just come to mind which may prevent some pointless posts..is having an up to date FAQ section. Something which could be updated on a regular basis by mods and with submissions by users (verified by mods!)

For example, earlier today someone posted about where they can buy FM! Its common sense that you look on the forums already but some people are lazy so having this FAQ might help. They also have no excuse then! I wouldnt mind updating it on a weekly basis.

Peacemaker7
24-09-2007, 06:53
Originally posted by medievalist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Peacemaker7:Y
People will ask annoying, repetitive questions on here. There is nothing can be done about that, because in general this is the first forum where new, enthusiastic people will flock - before the really clever ones end up in FMS or LLM. Patience is the key.


If that's going to be the accepted state of affairs then the answer to Rashidi's question about why quality posters avoid GQ will be an easy one: because it is filled with nonsense.

If SI doesn't want to take action against lazy new posters - even by just rapidly and consistently locking the threads - and other posters disciplined for their frustrations then GQ will, in my opinion, become empty in a hurry.

I think SI needs to tackle both sides of the issue. They need to cut down on the backseat moderating and hostile posts, but they also need to address the behavior that is causing those posts. Prompt, consistent enforcement of the rules will do that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the thing is, GQ IS the place for new posters. And new posters WILL ask repetitive questions because - they are new. The onus is actually not on the new poster, the onus is on the established posters to show a level of maturity in their response. What will make the forums become empty is when new users are shouted down and abused for asking a question that to them is new. They'll just leave.

medievalist
24-09-2007, 07:00
Originally posted by Peacemaker7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by medievalist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Peacemaker7:Y
People will ask annoying, repetitive questions on here. There is nothing can be done about that, because in general this is the first forum where new, enthusiastic people will flock - before the really clever ones end up in FMS or LLM. Patience is the key.


If that's going to be the accepted state of affairs then the answer to Rashidi's question about why quality posters avoid GQ will be an easy one: because it is filled with nonsense.

If SI doesn't want to take action against lazy new posters - even by just rapidly and consistently locking the threads - and other posters disciplined for their frustrations then GQ will, in my opinion, become empty in a hurry.

I think SI needs to tackle both sides of the issue. They need to cut down on the backseat moderating and hostile posts, but they also need to address the behavior that is causing those posts. Prompt, consistent enforcement of the rules will do that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the thing is, GQ IS the place for new posters. And new posters WILL ask repetitive questions because - they are new. The onus is actually not on the new poster, the onus is on the established posters to show a level of maturity in their response. What will make the forums become empty is when new users are shouted down and abused for asking a question that to them is new. They'll just leave. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there is an onus on new posters to 1) learn the rules of the forum they have just learned and 2) make at least a minimal effort (reading the thread they're posting in, looking at FAQs/headers). Not bothering to do that is lazy and shows little regard for the community they're 'excited' about joining.

I agree that cutting down on impatient replies would be a good thing. But Rashidi was also wondering why quality posters do not post in GQ and are off in OTF and other places. If GQ is allowed to be a wasteland of lazy nonsense posts then no, it won't be popular. And then new posters won't get their questions answered because the veteran players will be avoiding GQ like the plague.

medievalist
24-09-2007, 07:03
Originally posted by medievalist:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there is an onus on new posters to 1) learn the rules of the forum they have just learned and 2) make at least a minimal effort (reading the thread they're posting in, looking at FAQs/headers). Not bothering to do that is lazy and shows little regard for the community they're 'excited' about joining.


Should be 'just joined' obviously. No edit. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 07:04
Oz. You think I'm going waaaaay over the top wanting to ban people who break the rules, and you suggest that I would be on my own if that was the case.

I've checked your posting history, (or at least attempted to). I went back 10 pages of your history and you haven't made a single post in here. I'm sure you have your finger right on the pulse as far as GQ is concerned.

You advocate giving people a chance much like many others have done. The reason the forum is in this state in the first place is because Mods were instructed to "give people a chance" rather than enforce existing rules.

I can see the direction this is going so I think I will leave you all to it.

Good luck.

Peacemaker7
24-09-2007, 07:05
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there is an onus on new posters to 1) learn the rules of the forum they have just learned and 2) make at least a minimal effort (reading the thread they're posting in, looking at FAQs/headers). Not bothering to do that is lazy and shows little regard for the community they're 'excited' about joining.

I agree that cutting down on impatient replies would be a good thing. But Rashidi was also wondering why quality posters do not post in GQ and are off in OTF and other places. If GQ is allowed to be a wasteland of lazy nonsense posts then no, it won't be popular. And then new posters won't get their questions answered because the veteran players will be avoiding GQ like the plague.

I actually agree with that to an extent. Hence when people come into FMS for example and post something like 'Where's the Continue button' or go into LLM and ask about a player or a tactic they quite rightly get shouted down. The rules on those forums are more specific, implied even in the forum name and description before you enter.

GQ however is the place to ask questions. It's not much fun coming into a forum as a new user, thinking this is the place to ask where the continue button is, only for a million people to swear at you that it's been asked a million times before instead of just telling the guy either where to find an answer of the answer.

Ideally, having an FAQ would be great, but it still won't cut out new people asking old questions, although it will give more established users a chance to say, I refer you to the this part of the FAQ.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 07:25
Having an FAQ is a good thing. It at least gives people somewhere to go first. Ignorance coming from not reading the FAQ cannot be an excuse.

The two strictest sub-forums are LLM and T&TF and the quality of the posts there are high, credit to the posters but that wasn't always the case. It wouldn't have been that way if we didn't have an FAQ and a strictly "policed" forum to protect good threads.

I don't advocate capital punishment as people can be reformed, but we do need to make sure the forums are policed effectively.

I must say this has been the best discussion in GQ in a while

cms186
24-09-2007, 07:31
something that could be useful is to introduce a " senior members " group who have no moderating powers, but who are formed out of useful and interesting posters who can:

A: be relied on to provide answers to "newbies" and other people without ripping their throats out

B: be someone who the mods will listen to ( so a "senior member" could be granted access to "the mods room" to discuss anything which needs the attention of a mod )

It would be more useful to have different senior members for different forums ( i.e. Peacemaker would be a good senior member for the FMS forum, but not for the OTF )

Hitesh
24-09-2007, 07:34
Originally posted by rashidi1:
Having an FAQ is a good thing. It at least gives people somewhere to go first. Ignorance coming from not reading the FAQ cannot be an excuse.

The two strictest sub-forums are LLM and T&TF and the quality of the posts there are high, credit to the posters but that wasn't always the case. It wouldn't have been that way if we didn't have an FAQ and a strictly "policed" forum to protect good threads.

I don't advocate capital punishment as people can be reformed, but we do need to make sure the forums are policed effectively.

I must say this has been the best discussion in GQ in a while

Agreed! If you give people a chance to be refored then fair play but if they continue to send bad posts then they should be punished otherwise they think they can get away with it. And IMO, an FAQ is one way that can help users avoid getting a warning.

Peacemaker7
24-09-2007, 07:42
Originally posted by cms186:
something that could be useful is to introduce a " senior members " group who have no moderating powers, but who are formed out of useful and interesting posters who can:

A: be relied on to provide answers to "newbies" and other people without ripping their throats out

B: be someone who the mods will listen to ( so a "senior member" could be granted access to "the mods room" to discuss anything which needs the attention of a mod )

It would be more useful to have different senior members for different forums ( i.e. Peacemaker would be a good senior member for the FMS forum, but not for the OTF )

Yup thats about that I was thinking cms. If there was a way to allow more senior members a bit of responsibility, and also means giving them a reward if you like for good behaviour.

I can see Jimbo's point, people really shouldn't need to be rewarded for behaving like normal human being, but sadly that isn't the way the world works. Besides, we all need to be appreciated and have some nice awards to our name.

A an FAQ would be good - in fact I thought there already would be one, didn't there used to be? However go into FMO, they have a whopping great header, an FAQ and a million closed threads.

medievalist
24-09-2007, 07:42
Originally posted by Peacemaker7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there is an onus on new posters to 1) learn the rules of the forum they have just learned and 2) make at least a minimal effort (reading the thread they're posting in, looking at FAQs/headers). Not bothering to do that is lazy and shows little regard for the community they're 'excited' about joining.

I agree that cutting down on impatient replies would be a good thing. But Rashidi was also wondering why quality posters do not post in GQ and are off in OTF and other places. If GQ is allowed to be a wasteland of lazy nonsense posts then no, it won't be popular. And then new posters won't get their questions answered because the veteran players will be avoiding GQ like the plague.

I actually agree with that to an extent. Hence when people come into FMS for example and post something like 'Where's the Continue button' or go into LLM and ask about a player or a tactic they quite rightly get shouted down. The rules on those forums are more specific, implied even in the forum name and description before you enter.

GQ however is the place to ask questions. It's not much fun coming into a forum as a new user, thinking this is the place to ask where the continue button is, only for a million people to swear at you that it's been asked a million times before instead of just telling the guy either where to find an answer of the answer.

Ideally, having an FAQ would be great, but it still won't cut out new people asking old questions, although it will give more established users a chance to say, I refer you to the this part of the FAQ. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, and I guess what I'm trying to suggest is that GQ needs rules as well. Obviously these would be much more relaxed rules than anywhere else on the boards but there should still be clearly laid-out rules that are then consistently enforced. It could be as simple as:

1) Usual forum rules re: textspeak, racism &c.
2) Read the FAQ before posting (and then have a regularly updated FAQ thread).
3) Do make an effort to see if your question has already been asked and answered. The search function is not perfect but repeat threads may be locked. (There is no reason why all those endless 'when is the demo' threads should have been tolerated)
4) We have full confidence in our moderators; enforcing the rules is not your job. If you find a post that you believe breaks the rules please simply report it.

Enforcement of rules does not even really have to be unfriendly. 'Your thread has been locked, the answer to your question is in the FAQ' is not being unkind.

To me, just because GQ is the forum for all sorts of questions from posters of varying levels of experience does not mean there should be no standards enforced at all. It will be a much better forum if there are rules that everyone understands and the rules are consistently applied. If that means appointing more mods, then so be it.

Bigwig
24-09-2007, 08:08
Hence when people come into FMS for example and post something like 'Where's the Continue button' or go into LLM and ask about a player or a tactic they quite rightly get shouted down.
Sorry, but why are they 'quite rightly' shouted down?

Isn't it easier to just let someone know they're in the wrong place and point them in the right direction rather than treat them like they've just killed your family?

I think the forum police are more of a problem than the people asking the 'wrong' questions.

Peacemaker7
24-09-2007, 08:12
Originally posted by Neil Purvis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hence when people come into FMS for example and post something like 'Where's the Continue button' or go into LLM and ask about a player or a tactic they quite rightly get shouted down.
Sorry, but why are they 'quite rightly' shouted down?

Isn't it easier to just let someone know they're in the wrong place and point them in the right direction rather than treat them like they've just killed your family?

I think the forum police are more of a problem than the people asking the 'wrong' questions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm they're politely told they are in the wrong place, nothing at all wrong with that. Can't speak for other forums but FMS had always been a self-regulating forum and it's worked well for over 7 years but thats not really the issue of this thread.

medievalist
24-09-2007, 08:20
Even in the infamous LLM forum they are told, firmly but politely, to read the headers and FAQ the first time. The only people who get 'shouted' at are the ones who try to argue.

And they deserve it.

mark24cde
24-09-2007, 08:20
How about a newbies only forum - with maybe a week or two week probation before automatically being allowed access to the other forums.
and conversely maybe a forum for the older users who seem to think there mods - I read earlier that one user had 290 people on their ignore list - sounds to me like there the one with the problem surely all of those 290 people couldn't have hacked him off that much

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 08:22
Originally posted by Neil Purvis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hence when people come into FMS for example and post something like 'Where's the Continue button' or go into LLM and ask about a player or a tactic they quite rightly get shouted down.
Sorry, but why are they 'quite rightly' shouted down?

Isn't it easier to just let someone know they're in the wrong place and point them in the right direction rather than treat them like they've just killed your family?

I think the forum police are more of a problem than the people asking the 'wrong' questions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Forum Police have been around for as long as the forum has been, and Neil is absolutely right that senior members should not resort to "shouting down". There is a right way and a wrong way to do this.

Moderators usually have tonnes to do, and we do appreciate responsible forum members who help and guide new users. What we shouldn't encourage is people "shouting down" and foul and abusive behaviour.

GQ is a forum which will attract all kinds of users...and we will definitely attract a lot of young users as well. And we need to understand that as well when we deal with them

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 08:23
Originally posted by mark24cde:
How about a newbies only forum - with maybe a week or two week probation before automatically being allowed access to the other forums.
and conversely maybe a forum for the older users who seem to think there mods - I read earlier that one user had 290 people on their ignore list - sounds to me like there the one with the problem surely all of those 290 people couldn't have hacked him off that much

I don't think he's entirely wrong in doing what he's done cos he does want to see posts that are constructive and if Jimbo has resorted to doing that it's just a symptom to a larger issue that needs addressing.

Peacemaker7
24-09-2007, 08:27
Well perhaps shouted down was the wrong term of phrase but I know what I meant and the point I was making is, there is a difference between this forum and others in the sense that this forum is the gateway if you like.

Theres actually nothing at all wrong with 'forum police' as long as it's done right. I think the correct level is, if someone on the street asked you the time, or can they have a light, you wouldn't punch them on the nose. Unless you were a psycho.

Your last point is probably the most valid rashidi.

mark24cde
24-09-2007, 08:30
whs

gavnoble
24-09-2007, 08:34
What happened to the age limit that used to be on the forums or did I dream that in the past you had to be 16 or over to join?

birdy123
24-09-2007, 08:44
gav - iirc the age limit is 12. Could be 13.

Arkim
24-09-2007, 08:54
The age limit doesn't really do anything does it? All you have to do is just make up a date. There is no way of confirming someone's age while registering. Unless I'm missing something?

earmack
24-09-2007, 09:00
As a new user the problem is stark and obvious. This is the first time I've posted so bear with me.
I have no idea about the demographic audience of the game but a huge guess would say that more older (29+) people play this(type of) game than other popular game genres. I would suggest that 90% of the problems lie with these people. People who have been there done that, they know the rules, they know when the new games are coming out, they know pretty much everything and they don't take kindly to newbies asking 'stupid' questions. They feel they have a right/they are doing a good thing by fielding queries with statements such as 'ohhhhhhh god not another one, read the rules.........' or something similar. In fact all they are doing is alienating new users. NO forum should encourage cliques of 'super' users and this seems to be what has happened on these forums(not just General Discussion). Really you have to ask yourselves do you want a forum of people who have been here for 3+ years who know everything about the game and only post on things they find 'ironic' or a forum where people can go for help with their queries. If you want the latter start banning (rolling bans http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) older members when they break rules or are simply rude and or abusive. In no circumstances should a new user be berated in the way I have seen and the only solution i feel is massive punishments.

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 09:02
mark & OZ. You've commented on by banned list so I will tell you who I put on it.

1. Anyone who continuously breaks the rules. They may only be small rules but what they are doing is sticking 2 fingers up to the rest of us and saying "I don't have to live to your rules".

2. Anyone who abuses anyone else in a manner that I consider more than light-hearted banter.

3. People who I have seen make serious rule breachhes but whom SI/Mods decided to turn a blind eye to.

4. People who I have reported for rule breaks to the Mods. Rather than see what action, (if any), the Mods are going to take, I just put them on my list and forget about it. As soon as they go on my list it becomes irrelevant what action the Mods take or what posts they make in the future.

5. People who re-load a game when they lose. (It's just a pet hate of mine and I have no intention of talking to them if I can help it).

6. People who I believe are just posting trying to get a reaction out of people.

Now I'm not doing this for antone's benefit other than my own. I used to have a VERY short temper. It is better now, but one way of dealing with my short temper is taking myself away from situations in which I might lose my temper. Adding people to my "ignore list" I suppose is an extension of this. The only thing that bothers me is that when someone on my list makes a new thread I am still able to see the opening post.

I used to spend A LOT of time in here and many of the people on my list were added around the release of the last 2 issues and the respective demos. I would hazard a guess that many of the people on my list are banned or are posting under an alias, but surely that is exactly what the ifnore list is there for.

Maybe if everyone used the ignore list rather than entering into slanging matches, the forum might be a far nicer place than it actually is. I'm not embarrassed at all by the number of people on my list. Maybe it's a sign of how much reading I do in here compared to posting.

Interesting that both of you seem to spend the majority of your time in OTF and not GQ.

Ackter
24-09-2007, 09:04
First offence: warning and linked to the forum rules
Repeat offence: 3 day ban
Repeat offence: 2 week ban
Repeat offence: 3 month ban
Repeat offence: Lifetime ban

The first three are the most important as it gives a user enough time to see that the forum is worth sticking around in but at the same time shows them there are rules to be respected.

Obviously with the possibility of leaping a few steps if the offence is severe.

Remember that if users were never given second chances then some of the SI team wouldn't be at SI now.

Ackter
24-09-2007, 09:06
Maybe if everyone used the ignore list rather than entering into slanging matches, the forum might be a far nicer place than it actually is.

Some people enjoy the slanging matches - for some I'm sure that's the only reason they're still here.

mark24cde
24-09-2007, 09:07
Why the last comment - does it matter where we post or are you just letting us know you've been checking our posting history http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ackter
24-09-2007, 09:09
do you want a forum of people who have been here for 3+ years who know everything about the game and only post on things they find 'ironic' or a forum where people can go for help with their queries.

Which is why I really think a Help (GQ) forum and a Suggestion/Discussion forum could be worth another trial.
A lot of those users would stay in the Suggestion/Discussion forum - while those who want to provide help can venture into the Help forum from time to time as well.

It would also make it slightly easier for SI and the mods to manage imo.

Ackter
24-09-2007, 09:10
Originally posted by mark24cde:
Why the last comment - does it matter where we post or are you just letting us know you've been checking our posting history http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's just one of Jimbo's 'Shall I ignore him' process. Looking through the first few pages of someone's past history can give a very good image of the type of poster that person is, and whether it's worth talking to them or simply ignoring them and moving on.

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 09:10
Originally posted by mark24cde:
Why the last comment - does it matter where we post or are you just letting us know you've been checking our posting history http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What part did you not understand?

I find it interesting that both the people who mentioned my ignore list spend the majority of their time in OTF.

Jimbokav1971
24-09-2007, 09:12
Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mark24cde:
Why the last comment - does it matter where we post or are you just letting us know you've been checking our posting history http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's just one of Jimbo's 'Shall I ignore him' process. Looking through the first few pages of someone's past history can give a very good image of the type of poster that person is, and whether it's worth talking to them or simply ignoring them and moving on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah. I do that a lot.

Rcjuk
24-09-2007, 09:13
Look lads, I'll be a mod if you want?

Highly respected poster round here and I tow the line, just drop me an email.

Can't wait to ban nelly.

saved_by_barry_horne
24-09-2007, 09:32
Originally posted by Rcjuk:
Look lads, I'll be a mod if you want?

Highly respected poster round here and I tow the line, just drop me an email.

Can't wait to ban nelly.

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

mark24cde
24-09-2007, 09:42
Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mark24cde:
Why the last comment - does it matter where we post or are you just letting us know you've been checking our posting history http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's just one of Jimbo's 'Shall I ignore him' process. Looking through the first few pages of someone's past history can give a very good image of the type of poster that person is, and whether it's worth talking to them or simply ignoring them and moving on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the explanation it was feeling a bit big brotherish but I can see the logic in that now tbf

gavnoble
24-09-2007, 09:46
Originally posted by Ackter:
First offence: warning and linked to the forum rules
Repeat offence: 3 day ban
Repeat offence: 2 week ban
Repeat offence: 3 month ban
Repeat offence: Lifetime ban

The first three are the most important as it gives a user enough time to see that the forum is worth sticking around in but at the same time shows them there are rules to be respected.

Obviously with the possibility of leaping a few steps if the offence is severe.

Remember that if users were never given second chances then some of the SI team wouldn't be at SI now.

I like the three strikes and you're out approach as it gives people a chance to change accordingly. Obviously there will have to exceptions for severe offences when an automatic ban is justified.

As for those saying you need to give new users time. I agree slightly but when I look back to when I started posting I made sure that I was aware before I posted what was within the rules and what wasn't. That's either common sense or part of my own ethic - not sure which.

I also took the time to read the forum header, which back in the CM days had a small, non-ovepowering list of what you could post etc i.e. no player naming etc. While not everyone reads the forum headers, it did give people a point of reference to refer to in posts as the FAQ, when compiled first by Liam Harper and then by myself used to.

It's quite encouraging to see that most of the people offering constructive suggestions are the people that I highly regards as posters anyway, with many sharnig the same view of myself that this place isn't like it used to be so that's why the majority of us (myself included) don't post very often in here anymore.

Towards the end of my regualr time in here I was starting to lose patience with the same questions asked multiple times on the same pages and the constant slanging matches.

The FM Forum has the potential to be as good as the CM Forum was in what I think was it's hayday with posters like Liam Harper, Caleyjag, jedimonkey, cleon, Herman Bloom and many others of a similar ilk. It seemed that back then people were slightly more tolerant of new users but also the new users weren't as impetuous either.

I know I mentioned it earlier, but I think the fact the CM Forums had its designated moderating team made a big difference to how the forum operated and it seems that a good proportion of people posting in this thread agree that it would be a step in the right direction to have a similar team in place here.

It provides a figurehead for the forum and also helps keep control to know that someone is assigned and will be keeping an eye on things.

Someone earlier (was it rashid?) mentioned using cards as a way of removing access to some of the forums. While I like this as an idea I'm not sure it would be feasible as I imagine most of the rulebreakers would really only use this forum anyway. However Ackter, mentioning bans for various lengths of time is a sensible idea I think.

Those that want to change will come back and adapt whereas those that don't isn't a great loss to the FM gene pool really.

FungusMungus
24-09-2007, 09:49
Lovely thread this.

mark24cde
24-09-2007, 09:56
Reading through this thread the overwhelming feeling I get is that the main problem is not new people posting incorrectly its the way they get told about it.
People need to be far more welcoming tbh Miles main comments were regarding bullying behaviour and not people posting in the wrong forum or continually asking when the demo will be out.

birdy123
24-09-2007, 09:59
As for those saying you need to give new users time. I agree slightly but when I look back to when I started posting I made sure that I was aware before I posted what was within the rules and what wasn't. That's either common sense or part of my own ethic - not sure which.

I feel the same. I think that is why I get frustrated by the same questions being asked over and over again. I always search before starting a new thread and I didn't post much in my first month or two. I got the feel of the place and started learning things, etc.

Maybe something that could be implemented is a newcomers forum. This could be the only forum that brand new users have to read before they can post anywhere else or something along those lines. In here can be threads that explain what to do, not to do, explain what forums should be used for what, etc. I feel that this would be a way to help the newcomers to the community, and also a way to help stop the same threads being posted with the same responses in.

super_imps
24-09-2007, 10:04
Give everyone mod rights.

rashidi1
24-09-2007, 10:06
One other reason why some of us haven't really been posting that much is cos we are getting a bit older, a little bit more senile too..at least in my case.

dafuge
24-09-2007, 10:17
Originally posted by gavnoble:

I know I mentioned it earlier, but I think the fact the CM Forums had its designated moderating team made a big difference to how the forum operated and it seems that a good proportion of people posting in this thread agree that it would be a step in the right direction to have a similar team in place here.

It provides a figurehead for the forum and also helps keep control to know that someone is assigned and will be keeping an eye on things.


I agree, the moderators are there to set the tone of the forum and act as role models for the regular users. If the moderators are around to set examples and keep on eye on people's behaviour, I'm sure people will be more amicable towards the newer / less experienced members of the forums. This seems even more important on this particular forum where there seems to be only small number of regular experienced users in comparison to the past.

playmaker
24-09-2007, 10:24
Originally posted by birdy123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for those saying you need to give new users time. I agree slightly but when I look back to when I started posting I made sure that I was aware before I posted what was within the rules and what wasn't. That's either common sense or part of my own ethic - not sure which.

I feel the same. I think that is why I get frustrated by the same questions being asked over and over again. I always search before starting a new thread and I didn't post much in my first month or two. I got the feel of the place and started learning things, etc.

Maybe something that could be implemented is a newcomers forum. This could be the only forum that brand new users have to read before they can post anywhere else or something along those lines. In here can be threads that explain what to do, not to do, explain what forums should be used for what, etc. I feel that this would be a way to help the newcomers to the community, and also a way to help stop the same threads being posted with the same responses in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A lot of people will register because they have a question they want to ask. If they have to wait to get onto GQ then they will lose interest.

birdy123
24-09-2007, 10:34
But there could be a thread in the forum that has a list of FAQ's. And if their question is not in there, then they can post in the FAQ forum and ask there.

dafuge
24-09-2007, 10:37
Originally posted by birdy123:
But there could be a thread in the forum that has a list of FAQ's. And if their question is not in there, then they can post in the FAQ forum and ask there.

If they are new and their question does not appear in the FAQ, they will assume that it is not a frequently asked question and ask it in GQ anyway though.

birdy123
24-09-2007, 10:48
If they ask it in GQ, then that question can be added to the list of FAQ's if it is necessary.

dafuge
24-09-2007, 10:57
Originally posted by birdy123:
If they ask it in GQ, then that question can be added to the list of FAQ's if it is necessary.

I think that whatever is done to prevent it, you will always get a certain number of people asking the same old questions. I think the point of this thread is that people should be responding to these threads in an appropriate manner that is informative but polite and well mannered at the same time.

Kriss
24-09-2007, 11:05
Exactly Dafuge, or saying nothing is an option.

LRJ
24-09-2007, 11:06
I think there should be more effort from the mods when closing a thread, lots of the time its closed and thats the end of it, an explanation would be nice so the creator/followers knew why it was closed

And mods need to react quicker to people, eg somebody called treml was right spamming a thread, posting totally off-topic and everything and nobody banned him for ages causing the ruining of the thread (about Mourinho leaving) which i for one was interested in

All in all its not just the posters that arent up to scrath tbf

robbo_16
24-09-2007, 11:07
How about if the same question keep popping up, have a general response already made up (similar to a signature - the response would be agreed on by authoritive figures and would only need to be copy and pasted), which would get posted by a moderator. It would have a fair tone, indicate that the question the user has asked is frequent and point them in the direction of a FAQ section via a link.

birdy123
24-09-2007, 11:12
All in all its not just the posters that arent up to scrath tbf

Hopefully more moderators will be put in place in the not too distant future http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LRJ
24-09-2007, 11:16
i remember somebody asking to be one

the message from Ter was '' we are not currently looking for more moderators '' despite the fact that there is only about 5

Ter
24-09-2007, 11:23
i remember somebody asking to be one

the message from Ter was '' we are not currently looking for more moderators '' despite the fact that there is only about 5

That is the standard reply when people ask to be a moderator. Moderators are selected by the current bunch of moderators and voted in via a top secret method involving dark tunnels, gowns and other stuff I'm not allowed to talk about.

Kain
24-09-2007, 11:24
Originally posted by Liverpool Rule---Jehrome:
I think there should be more effort from the mods when closing a thread, lots of the time its closed and thats the end of it, an explanation would be nice so the creator/followers knew why it was closed

And mods need to react quicker to people, eg somebody called treml was right spamming a thread, posting totally off-topic and everything and nobody banned him for ages causing the ruining of the thread (about Mourinho leaving) which i for one was interested in

All in all its not just the posters that arent up to scrath tbf
Tbf, the moderators can't be online all the time (though I admit, if there were more moderators who were regular posters, perhaps there would be one online almost all the time). Treml did go on forever though!

LRJ
24-09-2007, 11:24
right, i understand now.

highly doubt that there is gowns involved though, way too classy http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kris
24-09-2007, 11:28
Originally posted by Liverpool Rule---Jehrome:
i remember somebody asking to be one

the message from Ter was '' we are not currently looking for more moderators '' despite the fact that there is only about 5

1. theres more than 5.
2. We close threads without explanation because they dont need one. Its a direct violation of the house/forum rules which you are required to read on registering.
3. OTF, which you seem to be referring to, is lower on our priority list then the other SI forums. Perhaps read my earlier email about the amount of posts and new members we get a day?

Kris
24-09-2007, 11:29
FYI there are 52 users with moderator privledges at least.
28 are non SI.

LRJ
24-09-2007, 11:39
i know there is more than five

1) I mean that i actually see about, posting all the time and whatever

2) I know there was more than 5 i was being under-exagerating (I dont know the word)

Kris
24-09-2007, 11:45
In OTf maybe (and Ive explained why I wasnt around, combined with the fact I was visiting the in-laws in Jamaica when hurricane dean hit for the past month).

Most moderators are online during the day, as Ive said a lot of it is background work that you dont even see.

FrazT
24-09-2007, 11:56
Originally posted by Kris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Liverpool Rule---Jehrome:
i remember somebody asking to be one

the message from Ter was '' we are not currently looking for more moderators '' despite the fact that there is only about 5

1. theres more than 5.
2. We close threads without explanation because they dont need one. Its a direct violation of the house/forum rules which you are required to read on registering.
3. OTF, which you seem to be referring to, is lower on our priority list then the other SI forums. Perhaps read my earlier email about the amount of posts and new members we get a day? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kris- while there are certain times when no explanation for closing a thread is OK ( experienced users ), there are also lots of times where a couple of lines from the Mod would be an advantage especially if the OP was new to the Forums.

The whole theme of this thread has been to try and be less harsh on newbies as well as trying to educate them, so surely some short explanation would be better than none at all?

LRJ
24-09-2007, 12:00
yeah i agree FrazT, i mean ive seen somebody have their thread closed so they have either opened a new one exactly the same or opened one asking why it was closed

i understand its difficult for a mod to always be around, but why not get new mods for each forum who are always there like me (im not saying make me a mod) im always in OTF except from the odd occasion so make a person like that a mod for that forum

just an idea, would probably benefit you all

birdy123
24-09-2007, 12:14
a lot of it is background work that you dont even see

I appreciate that, but as has been mentioned in this thread a couple of times, it is nice to see moderators around and for them to set an example for newer members.

Kris
24-09-2007, 12:21
We cant set an example for a few thousand new members every week.

Thats your job (as one of the 100,000 forum members), ours is to maintain the forum, report bugs and do housekeeping (on top of the normal mod duties).

We also wouldnt take mods on for OTF only, I originally and still do come from Tech (PC) forum. People seem to highlight OTF a lot when its really a forum that SI could best do without but adding to the community as a focal point of anything offtopic needs to have.

FMS/FMO/Tactics Forum being some of the fourms we would and have take(n) on specialised mods.

LRJ
24-09-2007, 12:25
Im not saying just OTF i said for each forum, i used OTF as an example because thats my main place

dafuge
24-09-2007, 12:28
What about the Challenges / Sign-Ups / Holiday Games forum, will that get it's own mod?

Kris
24-09-2007, 12:28
And if you read my post properly then I state




We also wouldnt take mods on for OTF only, I originally and still do come from Tech (PC) forum. People seem to highlight OTF a lot when its really a forum that SI could best do without but adding to the community as a focal point of anything offtopic needs to have.

FMS/FMO/Tactics Forum being some of the fourms we would and have take(n) on specialised mods.

Kris
24-09-2007, 12:30
Originally posted by dafuge:
What about the Challenges / Sign-Ups / Holiday Games forum, will that get it's own mod?

that forum is on a trial run iirc, mods will no doubt be assigned or it will be put back to a fully post moderated (started) forum.

LRJ
24-09-2007, 12:30
Originally posted by Kris:
And if you read my post properly then I state

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

We also wouldnt take mods on for OTF only, I originally and still do come from Tech (PC) forum. People seem to highlight OTF a lot when its really a forum that SI could best do without but adding to the community as a focal point of anything offtopic needs to have.

FMS/FMO/Tactics Forum being some of the fourms we would and have take(n) on specialised mods. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kris
24-09-2007, 12:32
So whats your point, no we wouldnt take mods on just for OTF. I was pointing out that we do take on mods for other forums which are have a direct link to SI/FM/OOTP/EHM.

LRJ
24-09-2007, 12:34
yeah but i never said take them on just for OTF

Kris
24-09-2007, 12:37
I never said you did, I stated that we wouldnt (given your example) take them on just for OTF. It's no a SI related forum and it really doesn't benefit SI in nayway other than to be an outlet or convenient dumping ground for anything non SI/FM/OOTP/EHM related.

LRJ
24-09-2007, 12:48
ok, but i think it does offer something to SI

if you got rid of OTF i think alot of users would leave, where-as now alot of users have OTF as there main place but still go around GPTG, GD, TT.

I wouldnt leave, id just return to Challenges or GPTG as i started at the latter then moved on

Kris
24-09-2007, 12:52
Most OTF people (read about 70% of the active members in there) do not post or view the other forums (short of release date).

daggerhammer
24-09-2007, 12:54
To be honest i dont think there is such a big bullying problem on the forum. I cant say iv'e ever been a victim.

ok so some people do get jumped on, but then they do ask/ suggest some really rediculus things.

the best way to deal with it if you do believe there is a problem is to reset karma points back to zero if people are deemed to be out of order! that would sort them out!

LRJ
24-09-2007, 12:59
i think some people jump on your back too easy, the other day i asked if something was sarcastic and another person who had nothing to do with the conversation says 'if you cant tell then you deserve to die tbh' maybe not them exact words but it was die/shot and i was like wtf there is no need

i dont think reset karma points, happened to YNWA and he threw a bennie and closed his thread (well refused to continue it) which results in unneccesary problems

i just think we need new shorter bans like 1 week, 3 days w.e so people stop

yellow cards arent really affective

LRJ
24-09-2007, 13:00
Originally posted by Kris:
Most OTF people (read about 70% of the active members in there) do not post or view the other forums (short of release date).

expected more tbh

meant to reply in other post

spotg
24-09-2007, 13:00
Originally posted by Kris:
Most OTF people (read about 70% of the active members in there) do not post or view the other forums (short of release date).

Bang on.

This is the first time I've been out of OTF for about a year. Unless a thread gets linked in there, I just don't come in.

I'm sure that as far as SI is concerned, OTF is a waste of time and money.

Michael F
24-09-2007, 13:03
Originally posted by Ter:
top secret method involving dark tunnels, gowns and other stuff I'm not allowed to talk about.

Ter's been watching the Stonecutters, Simpsons episode http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kris
24-09-2007, 13:04
Yellow Cards arent effective for the determined idiot.
Shorter bans would result in a lot more administrative work as the forum software really isn't geared twords that.
And , as mentioned, SI want bans to be a last resort.

People wont stop just because they receive a 3 day 1 week ban, a 3 month or lifetime ban is sufficient imo.

LRJ
24-09-2007, 13:05
i see what your saying there Kris but the ban could increase each time until you are getting to the 3 month/life ban

The Enforcer
24-09-2007, 13:06
Originally posted by muncherdave:
To be honest i dont like the idea of karma or any other reward system. If, for example, the user that has the highest amount of karma on the entire site one day breaks a rule they should be punished in the same manner as the lowest, so it makes the whole system a little pointless other than rewarding people for being decent on the forum, which is how they should be anyway.

Do we really need treats to be nice people here, isn't the gratification of helping another user when they are in trouble enough? And is it going to make a big difference in stopping the real issue (abuse)?

Strict guidelines on what are and are not acceptable are necessary here I feel, I'm sure once they get laid down some regular users would help by reporting posts like they have with other rulebreakings. The main problem is where to draw the line however, a lot of things like sarcasm can be misinterpreted because its just in text form when the users intent may actually be innocent and humourous, and before you know it every thread has a post that could be seen to be abusive when they are tongue in cheek.

Oh, and if people are going to be complaining they haven't seen whatever new rules you are going to put in place, you could always just do a mass email or private message, with whatever rule(s) come from this issue and maybe all the other rules as a reminder in there. People have no excuse to have not seen them then.

Sorry if it didn't come across well, but any reward system effectively run by the members, which would include both the ability to mark up and mark down, would run hand-in-hand with a disciplinary system run by the mods. To give an example, this means that someone with 100% positive feedback from members could still be banned by a mod for a racist remark. One would like to think their 100% would take a nose-dive also.

I think what I was driving at, is that it looks like the consensus is that a clampdown on bad behaviour by both newbies and oldies alike is necessary. This seems likely to result in the 'do's and don't's' and the punishments attached to not following them being displayed more prominently and quite rightly so. I feel that an announcement of some kind of reward system next to the rules and regulations would help to give the forums a more positive spin.

The sort of thing I am envisaging at the top of the forum/subforums is:

"Please enjoy these forums, but obey these rules [link], otherwise these punishments [link] will be imposed. We also have a "Kudos System" [link to explanation of how it works] in place, so that consistently helpful posting is recognised and rewarded."

The second sentence would make the forums seem a lot more inviting, in my view.

Matthew Le God
24-09-2007, 13:07
Originally posted by Liverpool Rule---Jehrome:
yellow cards arent really affective

well im not going to post another video again http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Michael F
24-09-2007, 13:07
Kris, do you not think that warnings/yellow cards are seen more as a trophy than actually being a warning about their conduct on the forum?

LRJ
24-09-2007, 13:13
yeah ive seen some people show them off but like Matthew said, he aint going to post more videos in te wrong place

I dont think that Karma should be removed, it earns some people respect in ways, like if i was new to these forums then im gonna give Mika and Ratinho more respect than another new person, the only way i know he has been around long is his Karma rating (and maybe the registered date http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

anyway thats me done for tonight, will carry this on tommorow

Kris
24-09-2007, 13:20
Post counts were removed as they were seen as a status symbol (god knows why, Im the saddest user here http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )/

Yes, some people view cards as a trophy, however they tend to end up getting banned shortly after http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Enforcer
24-09-2007, 13:22
Originally posted by Frankie 7:

I for one don't think Kudos would work here. it would only cause unrest between members. Some members might feel that they are getting alienated just because no one bothered rating them. Not everyone will bother to rate other members.

This could be avoided if the system was operated in a way that members' ratings were hidden from all but SI, thereby keeping everyone guessing and, more importantly, posting helpfully.

Gazzaroon
24-09-2007, 13:54
I have to say that I have found these forums becoming too insult driven and have therefore not visited as often as i used to. I love playing the game and I love talking to people about the game but I am not happy coming to the forum to see people complaining for the sake of complaining and not being very nice about it.

I have actually taken it to be the age of the people on these forums to be a basic problem, but I am not sure that is the problem. I am a regular user of another forum and it does have a nice community feel about it and everyone is nice to each other and when someone starts a new thread about a problem the other users don't complain, insult or anything like that the moderators will simply merge the new thread with the old thread and that is the end of the problem.

Also if someone does ask a question people try to help them rather than call them an idiot. For me now I just look for when the newest release is coming out and that is all apart from sometimes checking a couple of posts.

WHen I first joined it was a very nice place - today not so much!

Schit Onzermancs
24-09-2007, 14:09
I agree with wwfan that there is currently a large divide between the fan-base and it's apparent in these forums (particularly the tactics forum). I think that the biggest reason for this gulf is down to the state of the game itself and the supporting texts—the manual and tutorial just don't tell us what we REALLY want to know. A lot of the arguments arise simply because we STILL don't know what the sliders do exactly. If we can't even agree with the functions of each slider then we are already at a loss. With a feedback system, and knowledge of what each slider REALLY does (for example, what DOES the defensive line really do?) in place we would be able to learn from the actual game itself rather than adopting a poster's 'theory.' Many an argument has surfaced because a person in need will follow somebody's 'theory' to the letter, come back in failure, and be told that the game is more than just tactics — that they haven't managed the 'other' segments of the game correctly (team-talks, media interaction, training, etc.). How can one truly learn the pros and cons of a tactic if this is true and outside variables are actually so influential and dominant?

Personally, I would like to see the back of the 'gloating' threads (as I call them) where people post successes and tactics in a story-telling manner. It's awful that I have to say this, but there is no way to know if the person posting has cheated or not so the thread holds no value at all. I've posted successful tactics to this forum before only to be told they are useless. Why does it work for me and not others? I honestly don't know? I feel that tactical threads, or experiments, should be carried out in a collaborative manner by a number of people until consistent success is achieved by all (whatever success may be since it's relative). This will stop people responding in a 'theoretical sense', meaning, people will often post what their thoughts are on the real-life game without actually having any proof as to whether this applies in FM. This is, after all, just a game.

I personally feel that the moderators should moderate more than post, or at least have a separate log-in name when they want to contribute. Often they will use their position of 'power' in their postings. Being a moderator does not make one an authority or a master tactician. Unfortunately, certain moderators feel that this is the case it seems and to disagree with moderator's opinion will often leave one held in contempt. This is supposedly a democracy yet does not always feel so. If a certain section of the fan-base feel the game has tactical flaws or inadequacies, it should not be held as a 'complaint' or be deemed worthy enough of a crime to have the thread closed if communicated constructively enough. Many threads have been closed because the topic contradicted the moderator's perception of the game. Pride and sentiment is at an all time high currently.

To summarise:
— We need a new manual
— We need to all agree on what each slider does
— Tactical 'experiments' should be implemented in a collaborative manner to reach a standardised agreement
— People need to stop 'theorising' so we can deal in fact
— Mods should not close postings that are constructive regardless of personal sentiment
— Insults should be dealt with zero-tolerance
— The ambiguity of the game needs addressing without enabling us to 'paint by numbers'

At the minute, the AI has evolved to such an extent that it is extremely effective, and a lot of human users simply don't know how to combat it with the tools at our disposal. This is why many cheat threads have reared their ugly heads. I think it's time we had a feedback system that allows us to know how and why we are being exposed. At the minute is seems the AI scores from 1 shot all game on the counter attack (or with a swift change to the dreaded 4-2-4) although the human has 25 shots on goal. I can assure you that if we knew why this was a regular occurrence, there would be a much more harmonious forum.

Dayle Wood
24-09-2007, 14:29
Originally posted by Schit Onzermancs:
all time high currently.

To summarise:
— Mods should not close postings that are constructive regardless of personal sentiment
— Insults should be dealt with zero-tolerance
These two are in conflict with each other. Constructive posts that spiral into abuse SHOULD be closed and treated with zero tolerance.

That is what the mods do. Sentiment doesn't even enter into it.

Schit Onzermancs
24-09-2007, 14:45
Constructive posts should NOT be closed if one idiot comes along and ruins the discussion. That idiot should be immediately dealt with. There is no reason for a constructive discussion to reach 'gutter level.' I'm not sure how these two conflict, Dayle.

I would also like to see forum-members warned for 'policing.' There are a certain section of forum-members that are 'pally' with the moderators that have recently formed a clique of some sorts. I don't think this is healthy for the forum either since disagreeing with one person often leads to a disagreement of many, hence 'bullying' arises.

Dan Baker
24-09-2007, 14:48
Originally posted by spotg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kris:
Most OTF people (read about 70% of the active members in there) do not post or view the other forums (short of release date).

Bang on.

This is the first time I've been out of OTF for about a year. Unless a thread gets linked in there, I just don't come in.

I'm sure that as far as SI is concerned, OTF is a waste of time and money. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm similar to spotg, in so much as that I avoid venturing into the other areas of the forum too much.

However, that's mainly due to what I have witnessed when going elsewhere - particularly in GQ. In OTF, we have the FM thread which is well populated, as the people in there understand that there is a certain 'standard' set within OTF in order to be a respected poster - I know that I couldn't express myself in the same way in GQ, because people are either too young, too stupid or too stubborn to go along with the way a thread is going.

We then find ourselves in a tough spot - I don't doubt that many of the users in that thread (myself, Andy Jordan and Purvis immediately come to mind) would like to give constructive feedback to the SI team, but no-one ever really ventures into the thread to respond. Well, apart from Ackter - and I don't want to go into that.

I understand that OTF is the excommunicated relative of the rest of the board, as it offers little in terms of game/brand development - however, there is a regular userbase that could be mined for ideas and feedback, under different circumstances. If GQ could be straightened out then the rest of the board could possibly pull together - but the volume of posts my casual members/players mean it's difficult to maintain such a standard.

Kudos to those who've built a reputation in GQ though - and in particular for swimming against the tide.

Dayle Wood
24-09-2007, 15:15
Originally posted by Schit Onzermancs:
Constructive posts should NOT be closed if one idiot comes along and ruins the discussion. That idiot should be immediately dealt with. There is no reason for a constructive discussion to reach 'gutter level.' I'm not sure how these two conflict, Dayle.

I would also like to see forum-members warned for 'policing.' There are a certain section of forum-members that are 'pally' with the moderators that have recently formed a clique of some sorts. I don't think this is healthy for the forum either since disagreeing with one person often leads to a disagreement of many, hence 'bullying' arises. It conflicts when a 10 page thread that started of pretty good but for the last 3 pages has just been bickering and whinging and so on. At that point the thread has outlasted its usefulness and should be closed.

As for your second point, policing and being friendly with the mods are two different things entirely. There is no reason we can't be frienly with mods.. They are people after all and enjoy the game and community as much as us.

I fully agree that 'policing' or moderating of other members should in the main be left up to the mods. However people advising other people that they are breaking rules (cd cracks, swearing, wrong forum etc etc) should be acceptable if done in the right manner and in the best of intentions. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Schit Onzermancs
24-09-2007, 15:51
Originally posted by Dayle Wood:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schit Onzermancs:
Constructive posts should NOT be closed if one idiot comes along and ruins the discussion. That idiot should be immediately dealt with. There is no reason for a constructive discussion to reach 'gutter level.' I'm not sure how these two conflict, Dayle.

I would also like to see forum-members warned for 'policing.' There are a certain section of forum-members that are 'pally' with the moderators that have recently formed a clique of some sorts. I don't think this is healthy for the forum either since disagreeing with one person often leads to a disagreement of many, hence 'bullying' arises. It conflicts when a 10 page thread that started of pretty good but for the last 3 pages has just been bickering and whinging and so on. At that point the thread has outlasted its usefulness and should be closed.

As for your second point, policing and being friendly with the mods are two different things entirely. There is no reason we can't be frienly with mods.. They are people after all and enjoy the game and community as much as us.

I fully agree that 'policing' or moderating of other members should in the main be left up to the mods. However people advising other people that they are breaking rules (cd cracks, swearing, wrong forum etc etc) should be acceptable if done in the right manner and in the best of intentions. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree mate, that often threads can become a bickering site with all kinds of insults flying round. I would rather there be a solution that involves ridding the world of the idiots instead of closing the thread completely simply because an imbecile or two can not hold their tongues. Why should we all suffer? Know what I mean?

williamshankley
24-09-2007, 16:00
I agree the rules need revising! Speaking as a member that received a yellow card. I believe I deserved the card! I was over the top and I do think that its due to the level of critism that is being bandied about! Then again Grame Kelly agreed with me I recall seeing so its not only the members that have been guilty of this!

If Ter the skin man is reading then, and this is over due I apologise!

I believe short week bans would be good!

More stricter rules would be good!

thefootman
24-09-2007, 16:01
I remember the strategy guides that used to come out after the most recent versions of CM and I personally
found them extremely useful.

They would cover things in far more detail than the manual and it's a shame that they don't produce one for FM.
This would be an extra cost,of course.The reason I mentioned them is this:

Is it possible a major online strategy guide may help to reduce the need for people to start the threads that end up
in squabbling matches in the first place?.(Something along the lines of Mark Vaughan's hints and tips but a lot more
in depth?).I know the SI guys have an extremely heavy workload (so could it be produced by someone else with a unique
insight into the game?).

A link to the download area could encourage new users to consult it first,but this is assuming they can be bothered
to read it.(And considering lots of them don't read the house rules I'm probably being a bit naive to think this way).

There will be many who would really appreciate it (and of course it would be optional).There are areas of the game
that are simply not explained in enough detail for many people to understand them and more help in this area could
possibly reduce the amount of 'this game is c**p/too hard/cheats threads' that result in so much nonsense being posted.

This is not to undermine the current forums in anyway at all.But it might help to keep the sensible discussion threads
in pole position where they belong.

Feel free to disagree http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dayle Wood
24-09-2007, 16:13
Originally posted by Schit Onzermancs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dayle Wood:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schit Onzermancs:
Constructive posts should NOT be closed if one idiot comes along and ruins the discussion. That idiot should be immediately dealt with. There is no reason for a constructive discussion to reach 'gutter level.' I'm not sure how these two conflict, Dayle.

I would also like to see forum-members warned for 'policing.' There are a certain section of forum-members that are 'pally' with the moderators that have recently formed a clique of some sorts. I don't think this is healthy for the forum either since disagreeing with one person often leads to a disagreement of many, hence 'bullying' arises. It conflicts when a 10 page thread that started of pretty good but for the last 3 pages has just been bickering and whinging and so on. At that point the thread has outlasted its usefulness and should be closed.

As for your second point, policing and being friendly with the mods are two different things entirely. There is no reason we can't be frienly with mods.. They are people after all and enjoy the game and community as much as us.

I fully agree that 'policing' or moderating of other members should in the main be left up to the mods. However people advising other people that they are breaking rules (cd cracks, swearing, wrong forum etc etc) should be acceptable if done in the right manner and in the best of intentions. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree mate, that often threads can become a bickering site with all kinds of insults flying round. I would rather there be a solution that involves ridding the world of the idiots instead of closing the thread completely simply because an imbecile or two can not hold their tongues. Why should we all suffer? Know what I mean? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>yep, and I agree.

dane0
24-09-2007, 17:04
Having been a moderator of a relatively large community on the internet (app. 200.000 registered users, although a much smaller part of those attended the forums) I recognize a lot of the problems facing these forums from a time of 4-5 years ago in "our" forums... On the FM forums the problems seem to be centered around a general lack of feeling of this being a real "community". The place seems to be perhaps too big to create that sense of being a close-knit community, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be a good, albeit very large community. Remember that the golden standard for a community is being exactly that, a community and this community could be great.


So what to do? Well, what worked at the forums were I moderated was relatively simple. The place was extremely "laissez-faire", but it worked wonders to let people know what the rules were and enforce them strictly when they were broken. The main problems as we saw them were the following:

1) Abusive posts directed at other users
2) Post boosting (ie. pointless posts, posts containing a smiley only etc.).
3) Threads asking the same questions that had been asked a thousand times before.
4) Threads asking for cracks etc., especially of the software that our community centered around.

So actually more or less a complete replica of the problems facing these forums. The measures that we took to beat the problems were relatively simple:

1) Very quick reaction to posts or threads with the above problems. They should preferably be deleted, closed or moved to the appropriate forum within 15-30 minutes. This is paramount to secure that abuse etc. is kept to a minimum. When abuse against forum members occurs it is not enough to simply close the thread. Make a post saying that such posts are wrong and harmful to the forum, chide the offender. Warn the perpetrator that further actions in that vein will have consequences. This must be entirely consistent across the different boards.

2) ALWAYS give a reason to the user in question why you took action against their posts/threads. If deleted write to the user why it was deleted. If it is a post containing content that has already been debated delete the post and send a message with a link to the former post etc.

3) Be a noticeable presence in the forums. Be sure to make a post saying when a post is close to going over the line instead of just stepping in when the problems have already gone out of control. This requires great constraint from the moderators chosen. Power hungry people must be kept a long way from these positions of power (which they certainly are as long as they control forums to which people dedicate a lot of their time). Being a presence is also about being a moderator who knows most of the people who come on the forums; indeed I guess the only reason why you're a moderator in the first place is because you spend more time than most people on the forum in question, so this should actually be a prerequisite for being a mod.

4) Locate key users of the forum, ie. the people that the general populace respects and urge them to take an active role in the forum. It is unfortunately the case that reacting against a faceless moderator who wants to tell you how to act on an internet forum is the easiest form of "rebellion" today. A lot of users seem to take great pride in "standing up" to moderators and fight just for the fight's sake. As a moderator you're more or less alone at this point, unless you can get the respected users to take a stance too and make it unacceptable by the standards of the forums to act like that, be it against moderators or other users.

The amazing thing that we discovered was that once the worst troublemakers were gone (whether they were forcibly removed or left by choice once they couldn't act like they would anymore) and the tone on the forums had been improved the forums started moderating themselves more or less by themselves. Actually after 6 months or so we could more or less count on 95% of the users to behave themselves without any need for intervention from our part and we knew who the people who would step dangerously close to the line were, so that the quick intervention mentioned in point 1 became that much easier.


The downside to this approach is of course that it demands a damn lot of the moderators. If there is only about 50 moderators and many of thos are SI workers who have enough to do with putting out the game it is simply completely impossible to moderate a community as big as this one effectively. We worked with about 1 moderator for every 100 users or so, and that was about right I guess.
Also this demands a lot of coordination between the different members of the moderator team. Everyone needs to agree on where the lines for the different forms of intervention lie and it is absolutely essential to warn fellow team members about potential troublemakers and about what actions you take against members.
Finally you must always be prepared to take responsibility for your actions as a moderator. If you cannot defend the actions you've taken, DO NOT take them.


Being a moderator is hard work and I certainly don't envy the people who have to sort these boards out, although the potential to become one of the best communities on the web is certainly there, especially as the contributions of the people behind the game could be the defining trait to make this community just that little bit better than all of the rest...

sydfc4ever
24-09-2007, 19:29
I guess the main rebuttal to this thread is that you are interloping on peoples given right to free speech, by stating what is and is not acceptable in your eyes; you are limiting the spread of insights into a narrow field.

Having said that I must admit that I do not post on a regular basis due to this very issue, I understand people may see this as a contradiction to what I said above, but I do not believe banning or punishment a solution to any issue. Education is, as always, the way forward.

If a member makes an inappropriate comment enforce a ruling that states they can only view for a short period, and also must take a short quiz on the rules and regulations prior to being given posting rights again.

I think the issue regarding our ‘karma’ is also an area to be discussed. ‘Karma’ points should be a reward for intelligent and productive posting, receiving a bonus because you type WHS in 10 different threads is, in my opinion, idiotic. Personally, if I receive a reply to my post from a user with a rating of ‘Star Player’ or similar I pay far more attention than people on my own level, ‘Amateur’.

People like Jimbo, Ackter, etc may occasionally post something that could be taken as offensive or derogatory but I believe that is simply due to frustration.

So I return to my main point here, if we can educate the people, we can better the world.

That’s me done, I’ll take my ‘karma’ points now thank you kind sir!

sydfc4ever
24-09-2007, 19:31
Sorry for making two quick posts, but I forgot to mention my other idea, regional moderators.

I understand the majority of members are located in the UK/Europe region, so if a user from my part of the world (Australia) says something that belongs in a Rugby Union scrum and not a forum it could be reported and acted upon in a fair more timely manner if there was a moderator logged on.

Just a thought, thanks.

Ackter
24-09-2007, 19:34
remember the strategy guides that used to come out after the most recent versions of CM and I personally
found them extremely useful.

They were never made by SI though.

ShaunO1
24-09-2007, 19:58
High iv only just sskimmed through this thread but i would like to put forward an idea that ive seen put into practice by another other (non Fm)forum

I dont know if this is feasible or even would require a serious overhaul of forum software but i thought i might mention it as it seemed to work

The way it worked was as folllows

where the current karma structure is used and a post count would be then they had a system that was a bit like a golf score

People would get points added to this if they post somthing against the rules various amounts of points were used depending on the offence

if the person got to a certain level then they were banned , also other user had a idea who would talk sense so could keep clear of

the score would automatically decrease over time and also could cme doen if they posted good sense or a useful link (it was a tech forum)

THerfore the most respected people were them with the lowest score

Gazzaroon
24-09-2007, 21:41
Originally posted by sydfc4ever:
Sorry for making two quick posts, but I forgot to mention my other idea, regional moderators.

I understand the majority of members are located in the UK/Europe region, so if a user from my part of the world (Australia) says something that belongs in a Rugby Union scrum and not a forum it could be reported and acted upon in a fair more timely manner if there was a moderator logged on.

Just a thought, thanks.

Whilst I accept you opinion that we are open to free speech etc, there has to be rules to maintain the peace. We have it in our everyday lives, we can't speed, we can't kill etc. In everyday life the Law keeps the peace and those that break the law are punished. Now I also agree educating people is a great move forward and I think it is an important change that needs to be made on these forums. However, saying that I do think that some of the worst offenders may actually have to be removed to restore calm and reasoned debate once more to the forums.

I do agree with Dane0 that more action is needed against bad posts etc but I do think that the age of the members is a crucial factor in the problem. Society has changed nad young people are more outspoken than ever before and the internet is a perfect place to be outspoken without consequence.

I do urge reasoned debate on how to get back to a forum that is both friendly and informative.

Dayle Wood
24-09-2007, 21:50
Just to add to what Gazzaroon said there are rules within the forum that you accept when you join (terms and conditions).

If people are concerned their free speech is being violated then simply don't join the forum.

Alurny
24-09-2007, 21:58
Originally posted by sydfc4ever:
I guess the main rebuttal to this thread is that you are interloping on peoples given right to free speech, by stating what is and is not acceptable in your eyes; you are limiting the spread of insights into a narrow field.

Having said that I must admit that I do not post on a regular basis due to this very issue, I understand people may see this as a contradiction to what I said above, but I do not believe banning or punishment a solution to any issue. Education is, as always, the way forward.

If a member makes an inappropriate comment enforce a ruling that states they can only view for a short period, and also must take a short quiz on the rules and regulations prior to being given posting rights again.

I think the issue regarding our ‘karma’ is also an area to be discussed. ‘Karma’ points should be a reward for intelligent and productive posting, receiving a bonus because you type WHS in 10 different threads is, in my opinion, idiotic. Personally, if I receive a reply to my post from a user with a rating of ‘Star Player’ or similar I pay far more attention than people on my own level, ‘Amateur’.

People like Jimbo, Ackter, etc may occasionally post something that could be taken as offensive or derogatory but I believe that is simply due to frustration.

So I return to my main point here, if we can educate the people, we can better the world.

That’s me done, I’ll take my ‘karma’ points now thank you kind sir!

WHS http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


No in all seriousness I agree with everything you have said. I echo a lot of the sentiments that we need stricter rule enforcement.

I remember when this place felt much more like a community. Back when Dave C etc were active in discussions in this forum. Now its all Demo's/AI cheats http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I agree that FAQs, Sticks with up to date announcements that you do not reply to would all ease the strain on those members who try their best to point everyone in the right direction.

sydfc4ever
24-09-2007, 22:01
I agree with you completely Gazzaroon there are times at which education is not an answer and expulsion is the only option (promoting CD crack, extensive coarse language, personal abuse, racist/sexist/religious abuse)

Truth be told I often disagree with the Human Rights movement and the complete and unadulterated Free Speech that is demanded by every moron with a bigotry belief, I was simply stating that there is an argument for the against.

I believe these forums need to be cleaned in order for it to continue being a constructive environment. The question is who decides who needs to be removed? I’d assume that responsibility can fall only with Miles and his team at SI. Tough call to make.

Keep up the great work Miles and I don’t envy you in making the final call re the forums.

Ter
24-09-2007, 23:48
We then find ourselves in a tough spot - I don't doubt that many of the users in that thread (myself, Andy Jordan and Purvis immediately come to mind) would like to give constructive feedback to the SI team, but no-one ever really ventures into the thread to respond. Well, apart from Ackter - and I don't want to go into that.

Any time I've looked in that thread a lot of the feedback when experiencing any issues with the game is far from constructive!

chopper99
25-09-2007, 00:49
Originally posted by Schit Onzermancs:

Personally, I would like to see the back of the 'gloating' threads (as I call them) where people post successes and tactics in a story-telling manner. It's awful that I have to say this, but there is no way to know if the person posting has cheated or not so the thread holds no value at all. I've posted successful tactics to this forum before only to be told they are useless. Why does it work for me and not others? I honestly don't know? I feel that tactical threads, or experiments, should be carried out in a collaborative manner by a number of people until consistent success is achieved by all (whatever success may be since it's relative). This will stop people responding in a 'theoretical sense', meaning, people will often post what their thoughts are on the real-life game without actually having any proof as to whether this applies in FM. This is, after all, just a game.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this in the slightest. Many of the 'theories' that have been posted in the tactics forum have massively helped myself and many other members.

Excellent, well constructed posts by people such as wwwfan, Cleon, Rashidi, Dayle Wood and many others have helped so many people improve their fortunes on the game and to understand a lot better how things work. Only a small number of people come back and complain that they didn't get the success they expected from using the theories, you just notice these people more as they tend to be the more vocal. The people who are happy with what they've learned get on with playing the game and don't make endless posts about it.

But many people just can't accept that fact that these are just theories, they'll help you understand how to improve your own game but there is no one-size-fits all solution, and that's the beauty of this game. What we be the point of having it as you suggest? Where everything is explained to the letter and there is a specific formula for success. 'Do exactly this and you'll win with no effort whatsoever'. That's exactly what most members of this forum feel was wrong with previous FM games, after a few months a framework could be developed that meant the game could be beaten every time.

I agree that SOME transparancy is needed to help people understand how to do things for themselves a little more but in my opinion the threads on this forum go a long way towards doing that already, thank to a big effort from some people who work hard to understand the game and then happily share their findings with other members. I only hope the growing number of people saying things like 'I did exactly what you said and it didn't work for me' or 'you can have success and I can't, therefor you must cheat' don't dissuade the aforementioned people from continuing to provide excellent posts that help a lot of people. There's no specific winning formula, and long may it continue.


I personally feel that the moderators should moderate more than post, or at least have a separate log-in name when they want to contribute. Often they will use their position of 'power' in their postings. Being a moderator does not make one an authority or a master tactician. Unfortunately, certain moderators feel that this is the case it seems and to disagree with moderator's opinion will often leave one held in contempt. This is supposedly a democracy yet does not always feel so. If a certain section of the fan-base feel the game has tactical flaws or inadequacies, it should not be held as a 'complaint' or be deemed worthy enough of a crime to have the thread closed if communicated constructively enough. Many threads have been closed because the topic contradicted the moderator's perception of the game. Pride and sentiment is at an all time high currently.

Again I have to disagree. The T&T forum is, as has been mentioned in this thread many time, one of the better forums on these boards in terms of post quality and friendliness. This is because the rules are enforced. Posts being closed or people being warned by the moderators has nothing to do with them disagreeing with the moderators gaming beliefs, it's because they continue to just cry the game cheats without anything constructive to back it up. If you spend some time in there you'll see that anyone who provides PKM's and therefore proper evidence of this so-called 'cheating' will be given proper attention and as much help as they want. The same goes for people who are willing to listen to the help and advice that is given to them. It's only the people who seem unable to grasp the fact that plenty of us do have success on the game so it therefor their problems must be down to something they're doing that get treated less kindly by a certain number of members. And this is only because so many people make a big effort to offer help but some just don't want to hear it. All they want is to be fed the exact formula for whay something works.

If these people were just allowed to carry on this way that forum would have degenerated a lot more than it has. There are plenty of people who have issues with the game but don't get 'shouted down' because they turn it into a constructive discussion where both sides of the argument are put forward and listened to.


At the minute, the AI has evolved to such an extent that it is extremely effective, and a lot of human users simply don't know how to combat it with the tools at our disposal. This is why many cheat threads have reared their ugly heads. I think it's time we had a feedback system that allows us to know how and why we are being exposed. At the minute is seems the AI scores from 1 shot all game on the counter attack (or with a swift change to the dreaded 4-2-4) although the human has 25 shots on goal. I can assure you that if we knew why this was a regular occurrence, there would be a much more harmonious forum.

This is the only part I agree with, more is needed in the way of transparicy in the game to help people figure things out for themselves. But at the same time we don't want to go backwards and make the game too easy and boring again.

Sorry, this has gone a bit off the topic of this thread, but it's the people who just want to download a tactic and win everything that cause a lot of arguments on here imo.

Bigwig
25-09-2007, 01:25
Like spot and Don said, there are plenty of ‘good’ users who are alienated by GQ because of the format of it. I’ve asked for a separate forum for suggestions for ages now but still don’t see it happening.

Miles mentioned the low number of people contributing, but I’d rather have a small forum of people posting constructive suggestions rather than a large forum of users asking every single question that pops into their head.

Taking a look at GQ now on the front page there’s only a few threads I’d be interested in reading. It’s also worth noting that there’s about a dozen closed threads and the majority of threads fail to get 10 replies before they drop off onto page 2.

Maybe you could do a bit market research to find out why users are being driven away?

Dan Baker
25-09-2007, 01:27
Originally posted by Ter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We then find ourselves in a tough spot - I don't doubt that many of the users in that thread (myself, Andy Jordan and Purvis immediately come to mind) would like to give constructive feedback to the SI team, but no-one ever really ventures into the thread to respond. Well, apart from Ackter - and I don't want to go into that.

Any time I've looked in that thread a lot of the feedback when experiencing any issues with the game is far from constructive! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a vicious circle, though - if those people don't feel like their opinions will be taken on board, then there will be hostility.

I appreciate that it's a difficult position to be in, but perhaps extending the olive branch once in a while (an invitation to give some constructive feedback, for example) could be a good thing. And there's only so many times you can put with with Ackter acting as though he is some kind of mouthpiece for you guys.

johnnydude
25-09-2007, 01:32
I think there are maybe two things other than more moderators etc that you could think of.

1. Educate the people. I am guessing that some people do not know that they are being bad sometimes. I am not here to demonise people but I have at times (and I only make a few posts) caused problems without meaning to. The trouble for some is that what they write can be taken the wrong way and that causes problems after. So educate how people should lay out their responses.

Once people learn they can have no excuses so if people then carry on you have tried to help you can card them but its not worth your hassel. I read a post from Kris that bans cause admin overheads so just Ban them full stop.

IF the forums are losing many decent people cause of the few then isnt it in everyones best interest to just lose their custom and keep the others who make it contructive.

I know we all want it to be a place for everyone but if you have tried to teach and they are not listening then it is surely not worth anyones time to ban them and card them and ban them...so just get stop them from coming back. Its not worth it.

playmaker
25-09-2007, 01:37
Originally posted by Neil Purvis:
Like spot and Don said, there are plenty of ‘good’ users who are alienated by GQ because of the format of it. I’ve asked for a separate forum for suggestions for ages now but still don’t see it happening.

Miles mentioned the low number of people contributing, but I’d rather have a small forum of people posting constructive suggestions rather than a large forum of users asking every single question that pops into their head.

Taking a look at GQ now on the front page there’s only a few threads I’d be interested in reading. It’s also worth noting that there’s about a dozen closed threads and the majority of threads fail to get 10 replies before they drop off onto page 2.

Maybe you could do a bit market research to find out why users are being driven away?

Personally I think that the suggestions need to be within GQ, rather than a separate forum. It would take good users away from GQ, not to mention GQ supplies much of the inspiration(?) for ideas.

LFC Lloydy
25-09-2007, 02:53
Originally posted by playmaker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neil Purvis:
Like spot and Don said, there are plenty of ‘good’ users who are alienated by GQ because of the format of it. I’ve asked for a separate forum for suggestions for ages now but still don’t see it happening.

Miles mentioned the low number of people contributing, but I’d rather have a small forum of people posting constructive suggestions rather than a large forum of users asking every single question that pops into their head.

Taking a look at GQ now on the front page there’s only a few threads I’d be interested in reading. It’s also worth noting that there’s about a dozen closed threads and the majority of threads fail to get 10 replies before they drop off onto page 2.

Maybe you could do a bit market research to find out why users are being driven away?

Personally I think that the suggestions need to be within GQ, rather than a separate forum. It would take good users away from GQ, not to mention GQ supplies much of the inspiration(?) for ideas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you Playmaker. I understand the argument for a suggestions forum but don't really think it is needed. Like you see to of noticed, I have also seen lots of ideas develop from a question being asked about the game. I honestly can't see splitting the forum a solution to anything.

I would much rather this one forum was improved so that good and lengthy debates can happen.

Ter
25-09-2007, 03:46
Like spot and Don said, there are plenty of ‘good’ users who are alienated by GQ because of the format of it. I’ve asked for a separate forum for suggestions for ages now but still don’t see it happening.

I would like to see one as well. One thing I enjoy about these forums is reading other people's ideas on how to improve the game and what new stuff they would like added.

The thing about a suggestions forum is that people might want and expect 'official' responses to their ideas, which I can understand, but we can't turn round and say 'yes that will be in the game' which often puts us in an awkward position if we reply to some of these topics. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Michael F
25-09-2007, 03:53
Originally posted by Ter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Like spot and Don said, there are plenty of ‘good’ users who are alienated by GQ because of the format of it. I’ve asked for a separate forum for suggestions for ages now but still don’t see it happening.

I would like to see one as well. One thing I enjoy about these forums is reading other people's ideas on how to improve the game and what new stuff they would like added.

The thing about a suggestions forum is that people might want and expect 'official' responses to their ideas, which I can understand, but we can't turn round and say 'yes that will be in the game' which often puts us in an awkward position if we reply to some of these topics. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Id like to see a seperate suggestions forum, cant you put something in the banner of that forum saying along the lines of 'Although we do take ideas from these forums, it is not guarenteed that you will always get an official response from SI when posting a future idea for the game, please be assured that we do read your suggestions and your ideas do get discussed'

Something along those lines but less posh?

Ter
25-09-2007, 04:04
I'm sure it's something that will be considered when discussing all this stuff.

LiverpoolSimplyTheBest
25-09-2007, 04:05
Foster that was a very cunning way to ban me from the WeeGie forums, played.

P.S. I think your idea is pretty lame.

gavnoble
25-09-2007, 04:30
The one thing I can see happening if the GQ is split into General Questions and a separate Suggestions Forum is that the Suggestions forum will probably end up being the more popular of the two and busier so the GQ users will end up posting their questions in there anyway. Result is you're back to square one.

I think it was right that the Sign Up games ended up with their own forum but perhaps this is something that should happen only for the first three months after the game comes out and after that the popular games moved to the GQ Forum and extra sign up games can be posted thereafter.

This way after release time for a few weeks the threads in the FM Forum that are relevant won't end up dropping off the page due to the inane amount of sign up threads that are posted at this time.

HHUK
25-09-2007, 04:41
I think better organisation with more friendly words would be the way forward, especially a "Help" forum. For less experienced users who are lost or want some help with a specific item, ofcourse.. it wouldn't be just for less experienced users it would be for everyone. It's just calling it the "Help" forum deters people from the bullying culture.

Actually, to further divide matters, there could be a subforum for Technical Help. Maybe put the Tactics section as a subforum of the Help Forum.

Also, I believe in the Help Forum, alot of new players would name players without thinking, so putting the Good Players Guide as a subforum of the Help Forum would also be a nice idea. Make the rules more lenient and casual friendly, whereas also making them more respectful, hit harder on bad language and insults.

Also, if you were to introduce new mods, the Help Forum (and all subforums) would be the only forum in need of them.

A suggestions subforum would also be good, it would take away abit of clutter in General Discussion.

The only downside would be gutting the General Discussion forum, you'd be taking away a few common topics. Although, there's still a large number of debates. Maybe SI should enable polls so debates could be more evident. Polls would also be nice in the Good Players Guide.

More organisation, clearer questions, clearer answers, less complication.

FrazT
25-09-2007, 06:10
With currently 370 replies to date with lots of good suggestions, it would be good to hear from Miles or the guys at SI which thoughts/suggestions they are considering and an approximate timetable for their implementation.

rashidi1
25-09-2007, 06:23
They're probably soaking this in and having internal discussions.

Ter
25-09-2007, 07:09
FrazT - It's a bit premature for that. Things aren't going to happen instantly and when we've got some decisions in place and are ready to make some changes then we'll make sure you are all aware of them.

birdy123
25-09-2007, 07:27
Originally posted by LiverpoolSimplyTheBest:
Foster that was a very cunning way to ban me from the WeeGie forums, played.

P.S. I think your idea is pretty lame.

Perfect example of why this thread is here.

Michael F
25-09-2007, 07:38
Originally posted by birdy123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LiverpoolSimplyTheBest:
Foster that was a very cunning way to ban me from the WeeGie forums, played.

P.S. I think your idea is pretty lame.

Perfect example of why this thread is here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was that for me or him?

P.S LSTB - i cant remember banning you but if i did then its probably due to the constant abuse i get from you on here so i probably banned you as i dont want on the WeeGiE forums

Michael F
25-09-2007, 07:39
btw back on topic why is my idea lame?

playmaker
25-09-2007, 07:41
We've periodically had FAQ threads, but they always make little difference. A FAQ forum might though (named that way rather than 'Help forum' as people would assume that is technical help).

Most of the newbies gravitate towards whatever forum is at the top of the page, so they will naturally go there if they have questions. It is also easier to organise than a single FAQ thread and new users can quickly find what they want, i.e. a stickied thread entitled 'Release Date' which says "we don't know yet."

That means more of the users coming into General Discussion will arrive without a big divide between them and the more established users, thereby reducing one of the causes of conflict.

The FAQ forum would also be easy to police (ignoring time required). If someone posts a repeat topic it gets closed. It could also encourage 'super-users' to post 'how-to' guides.

I really don't think you can separate discussion and suggestions as one usually leads to the other.

shamule
25-09-2007, 07:48
i not sure on this but if you don't have to be reg to down load patches , why not make it that you do then if people get banded they cannot get the patches and they may think twice about getting banned

playmaker
25-09-2007, 07:52
Originally posted by shamule:
i not sure on this but if you don't have to be reg to down load patches , why not make it that you do then if people get banded they cannot get the patches and they may think twice about getting banned
The level of service shouldn't be limited to people that SI like. You can't really run a business that way.

I'm sure there must be some variation on that idea that would work though.

Warrenwwr
25-09-2007, 08:26
how about we have the power to be our brother/sister's keeper, and enforce the law (passively?) to protect the bullied.

not giving the power that can be abused, but be encouraged to step in while flaming ensues (poetic, huh)

birdy123
25-09-2007, 08:29
Originally posted by Michael Foster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by birdy123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LiverpoolSimplyTheBest:
Foster that was a very cunning way to ban me from the WeeGie forums, played.

P.S. I think your idea is pretty lame.

Perfect example of why this thread is here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was that for me or him?

P.S LSTB - i cant remember banning you but if i did then its probably due to the constant abuse i get from you on here so i probably banned you as i dont want on the WeeGiE forums </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LSTB.


We've periodically had FAQ threads, but they always make little difference. A FAQ forum might though (named that way rather than 'Help forum' as people would assume that is technical help).

Most of the newbies gravitate towards whatever forum is at the top of the page, so they will naturally go there if they have questions. It is also easier to organise than a single FAQ thread and new users can quickly find what they want, i.e. a stickied thread entitled 'Release Date' which says "we don't know yet."

That means more of the users coming into General Discussion will arrive without a big divide between them and the more established users, thereby reducing one of the causes of conflict.

The FAQ forum would also be easy to police (ignoring time required). If someone posts a repeat topic it gets closed. It could also encourage 'super-users' to post 'how-to' guides.


Posted about this idea before, glad to see I'm not the only one.

gavnoble
25-09-2007, 08:43
Not so sure that a FAQ Forum would work myself. People would just click into it, see that there in the wrong place and click out again straight away when they see they are the only one in there.

The FAQ threads did work in the past and did get high view figures because people were able to direct people asking the questions that had been answered in the FAQ to that thread when they replied, so I disagree with anyone saying they didn't work and that's not just because I wrote a couple of them. There's enough people have suggested they worked in this thread aside from me.

Yes, there will always be people that ignore them but that's just a fact of life that some people want everything handed to them immediately and aren't prepared to put their own legwork into things in order to get them.

rashidi1
25-09-2007, 09:08
The FAQs were a great help in those days, it helped me. I think it will help people. Its those kind of things that people take for granted. When it works well no-one notices it.

Sounds like a typical IT tech's life @work

Gazzaroon
25-09-2007, 09:34
I don't know why we just can't respect each other and remember that at the end of the day the thing we are talking about is a game, it cost about £30 or so and it isn't a lot of money in the great scheme of things. I think to be honest people take pleasure in being abusive and I think people should be denied access to the forums if they are abusive on a regular basis.

As in the use of the forum, people need to be educated how to use them, where to find information and how best to search for the information they want. Gentle reminders are far better than blasting a person for making a mistake, however I don't agree with the free speech argument at all.

Maybe for the more regular users they can be rewarded or something for helping the newbies learn the ropes and so on, guiding them along the way and encouraging the newbies to post in the correct place etc. Punishment isn't always the answer but for some it is.

I personally would like to get back to the time where we all discussed our games, successes and how we think we could improve the game. Surely constant constructive criticism is better than non-constructive criticism that people don't listen to.

FrazT
25-09-2007, 10:03
Originally posted by Ter:
FrazT - It's a bit premature for that. Things aren't going to happen instantly and when we've got some decisions in place and are ready to make some changes then we'll make sure you are all aware of them.

Was neither advocating nor suggesting a reply by today but purely that this type of thread deserves some sort of response by SI since they opened it, at some time so that those who have been interested enough to respond feel that the suggestions put forward have at least been considered.

playmaker
25-09-2007, 10:37
Originally posted by gavnoble:
Not so sure that a FAQ Forum would work myself. People would just click into it, see that there in the wrong place and click out again straight away when they see they are the only one in there.

I think you over-estimate some people's ability to notice they are in the wrong forum! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HHUK
25-09-2007, 10:49
Originally posted by Gazzaroon:
I don't know why we just can't respect each other and remember that at the end of the day the thing we are talking about is a game, it cost about £30 or so and it isn't a lot of money in the great scheme of things. I think to be honest people take pleasure in being abusive and I think people should be denied access to the forums if they are abusive on a regular basis.

As in the use of the forum, people need to be educated how to use them, where to find information and how best to search for the information they want. Gentle reminders are far better than blasting a person for making a mistake, however I don't agree with the free speech argument at all.

Maybe for the more regular users they can be rewarded or something for helping the newbies learn the ropes and so on, guiding them along the way and encouraging the newbies to post in the correct place etc. Punishment isn't always the answer but for some it is.

I personally would like to get back to the time where we all discussed our games, successes and how we think we could improve the game. Surely constant constructive criticism is better than non-constructive criticism that people don't listen to.

Well, after a community has been around for a while you get the veterans, the people who try too hard to be recognised by veterans (often bullying people) and the rest of the population. It's like a class divide, you get it at every community you goto.

A reward for players helping other players would be awesome, that's why I think the forums should be laid out better, ofcourse the best ones would be made mods. Maybe a member of the month award? They'd get a free month on FM Live or something, now that'd give people a real incentive to be helpful.

Matthew Le God
25-09-2007, 11:25
this may sound crazy or be impossible to implement however bear with me http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

whenever a new user clicks reply or start new thread for thier first 10 posts a screen comes up with frequently asked questions which they have to click through one by one. once the have posted 10 posts without problem this function is removed from their account and they post as normal.

if anyone breaks one of the house rules aswell as cards warnings etc this function is turned back on for their next 10 posts no matter how many posts they have previously made

Matthew Le God
25-09-2007, 11:27
if my idea is ever used i'd like it to be named after me http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Schit Onzermancs
25-09-2007, 12:05
I don't like the rewards idea at all. All this would do is create unwelcome competition in which people post to win 'Bully's Special Prize.' This forum is competitive enough without adding incentive for more. It's been mentioned already that a lot of the friction here is in part due to people's lack of understanding of how the game functions. As soon as some of the ambiguity has been eliminated and we have an acceptable manual, I am sure you will see the mood here improve since people will no longer have an excuse to complain. I reckon we should wait until 2008 has been released and then go from there. With a bit of luck, it will be a masterpiece and there will barely be reason to complain.

Gazzaroon
25-09-2007, 12:29
Originally posted by Schit Onzermancs:
I don't like the rewards idea at all. All this would do is create unwelcome competition in which people post to win 'Bully's Special Prize.' This forum is competitive enough without adding incentive for more. It's been mentioned already that a lot of the friction here is in part due to people's lack of understanding of how the game functions. As soon as some of the ambiguity has been eliminated and we have an acceptable manual, I am sure you will see the mood here improve since people will no longer have an excuse to complain. I reckon we should wait until 2008 has been released and then go from there. With a bit of luck, it will be a masterpiece and there will barely be reason to complain.

The idea of a reward system was for those that helped those who inappropriately posted in the wrong place rather than bit their heads off. When I first came onto the forums 4 years ago people were kind enough to help each other and politely mention when someone had placed a post in the wrong place - now it is like someone has committed murder!

I don't think rewarding people who post is the idea but rewarding those that support the forums and help make it a better place surely is a welcome idea.

Schit Onzermancs
25-09-2007, 12:41
It may have been mentioned already, but I'm not sure, and since this forum is now a 'sanctuary' of patience and virtue, my head is not allowed to be bitten off for my laziness, i.e, not searching. Anyway, how about a forum dedicated to asking questions to SI regarding tactics? I actually received a great email from Marc V. the other day (he responded in less than a day) http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif explaining what he thought was wrong with my tactical set-up. It's no coincidence that since his reply, I have been playing much more consistently and winning most games at home. I can't help feeling that if I had access to this information sooner, my enjoyment of the game would have started sooner rather than later.

Glyn
25-09-2007, 13:49
Originally posted by Schit Onzermancs:
I don't like the rewards idea at all.

How about the big stick then? ie The one I'm beating you with for trying to get round being put on post moderation by setting up this alias account. How does that sound?

Jimbokav1971
25-09-2007, 14:06
When I first came onto the forums 4 years ago people were kind enough to help each other and politely mention when someone had placed a post in the wrong place - now it is like someone has committed murder

That's not what I find at all.

When I try and help someone, but say that they might get a better/accurate response in the correct forum, I am often told that they know but they are just posting in here as well as it will get viewed my more people.

Some of you people seem to be trying to suggest that all the people posting new threads in the wrong forum, do so by accident or without knowledge of where the post should be made.

In actual fact, the people making the majority of these posts know exactly what they are doing and simply don't care because their experience has taught them that you don't get punished for abusing the rules.

Jimbokav1971
25-09-2007, 14:09
Glyn. Now that's what I'm talking about.

Post of the day http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

Parmie
25-09-2007, 14:57
Good intentions from Miles, hope it's followed through as there are a small number of regular posters who put down other members of the forum, mostly dressed up in condescending formality as a way to try to mask the insults.

I know this has bound to have been suggested in the other 7 pages of the thread but an effective search engine would go some way to reduce the numbers of repeat topics plus an improved archiving solution for dead threads, say 3 months with no new replies.

thefootman
25-09-2007, 17:03
Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">remember the strategy guides that used to come out after the most recent versions of CM and I personally
found them extremely useful.

They were never made by SI though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's true,Ackter.SI allowed someone with unique access to the game to put them together.

And I suppose however useful an in depth guide may be for some it still couldn't cover every conceivable situation
that people find the game throws at them.

Sean M
25-09-2007, 22:25
I am not sure what the problem is. GQ has always been like this.

There has always been a high volume of users and threads, repeated questions and ideas, threads descending into arguments and not as many regulars.

There are better periods due to the enthusiasm and helpfulness of certain posters.

=----------------------------------=

I think have a "Beginners Questions forum" which is more tolerant of repeated questions. And have a regularly updated FAQ with the most common questions.


And then have a "Suggestions" forum which would have a slower turnover of threads to encourage regulars.

Have an index with links to the best threads of the last month. This means they don't drop off the page too quickly, gets more people involved and gives posters something to aspire to.

Tactics forum is good in that way. Big threads contributed to. They hang around. They are not made and forgotten within a day. There is a community of regulars within those threads.

Sean M
25-09-2007, 22:34
Also if you get new GQ mods. Only roster them on for a few days a week to prevent burnout.

I remember prodigious GQ posters from the past like Liam Harper, gavnoble, Herman Bloom, Smiley Dan etc. There was a certain point where they seemed to get burnt out.

Dayle Wood
25-09-2007, 22:55
Sean M - there is no roster, they just come on when they feel like it. I don't know what you mean by them getting burnt out? DO you mean they became abrasive with people?

rashidi1
25-09-2007, 23:23
Burnt out means we gently fade away...we do get older each year, hopefully wiser ;-)

FrazT
25-09-2007, 23:29
Originally posted by Dayle Wood:
Sean M - there is no roster, they just come on when they feel like it. I don't know what you mean by them getting burnt out? DO you mean they became abrasive with people?

Burned out for the Mods probably means the same as for all of us- They will get bored and tired of answering the same questions day after day, correcting those who choose to ignore the basic rules of the Forum and so their interest levels drop. There wont be many of the regular posters who can sustain say 6 months of continual posting in GQ especially without getting tired and wanting a rest for a while. We can turn off, they cant really.

Sean M
25-09-2007, 23:33
No, I mean they post a lot in GQ.

But then after a while they get tired, less enthusiatic and stop posting. They have to take a long break.


I think the same thing would happen to a fulltime GQ mod who was doing it intensely every single day. I think they need to make sure they get a break before the peak periods where it gets chaotic.

gavnoble
25-09-2007, 23:59
Originally posted by Sean M:
Also if you get new GQ mods. Only roster them on for a few days a week to prevent burnout.

I remember prodigious GQ posters from the past like Liam Harper, gavnoble, Herman Bloom, Smiley Dan etc. There was a certain point where they seemed to get burnt out.

I can only answer for myself here but I didn't get burned out. I got fed up with seeing and answering the same old questions and taking part in the same old arguments day in day out. I didn't feel burnt out, I just felt disappointed with the way the forum was heading and didn't want to be a part of its regular life anymore.

I still look on a regular basis but rarely post because I've noticed the levels of hostility gradually get higher and higher. I'd hazard a guess and say that since this thread appeared I've posted more in this forum over the last 3 days than I have at any point in the last 12 months. (Of course another reason could be that last year for the first time in a few versions I actually enjoyed playing FM more than talking aout it).

Divinity
26-09-2007, 00:15
The current situation is a product of the people that the game is marketed to. The older population tend to get a little frustrated when the same questions they've watched for ten years still get asked because the search function is inept or because people simply can't be bothered using it. I'm sure people wouldn't feel the need or desire to abuse others if the posting was made a little more difficult for those who only want to click new topic straight after registering.

And on another note, attempting to change the culture of a forum to one of following the rules will fail dismally when the people enforcing them can only be bothered to do so selectively, ala the piracy bans / free discussion of downloading TV shows debacle.

Everyone has bad days. It simply depends on how much you want to change things as regards how rigidly you want to enforce a standard - if you want to do so strictly, at a minimum you need impeccable, unquestionable, frequent supervision.

All the best with locating that.

FrazT
26-09-2007, 01:24
if the posting was made a little more difficult for those who only want to click new topic straight after registering.

Perhaps reinforcing the suggestion made earlier that before being allowed to post a new discussion or question, posters neded to fill out 2 or 3 questions about the relevancy of their post and whether it is in the right forum.
May be difficukt to implemet of course.

port-ton
26-09-2007, 01:34
dont know if theres already one or if its been suggested but maybe there could be a sticky Q&A thread at the top for anyone with questions about the game, which mods and SI could check regularly and help people out along with other posters. this would eliminate all insults to do with people not understanding the game.

this leaves the rest of the forum for general FM discussion which would be a lot easier to control.

playmaker
26-09-2007, 02:06
Originally posted by FrazT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if the posting was made a little more difficult for those who only want to click new topic straight after registering.

Perhaps reinforcing the suggestion made earlier that before being allowed to post a new discussion or question, posters neded to fill out 2 or 3 questions about the relevancy of their post and whether it is in the right forum.
May be difficukt to implemet of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't see SI limiting new posters like this. They have as much right to just get on and ask a question as the rest of us.

Dayle Wood
26-09-2007, 02:26
I agree with playmaker, that would just alienate and drive away new members which is counterproductive to what we are trying to achieve.

The key issue is member behaviour.

a) people coming on and behaving like fools
b) other people exacerbating the problem by fueling the initial fools statement and replying wih abuse.

I think a thread at the top of the page listing the reasons people are getting carded should be started. If a person gets a card, next to that card is a number corresponding with the problem they are caused.

So in the thread there might be the following list:

1. Abuse of other members
2. Swearing
3. spammming
4. posting offensive material
5. etc etc.

Each offence carries a yellow card sentence period so that if you are guilty of 2) swearing it might be worth a yellow card for one months duration.

Spamming might be worth 2 weeks and so on.

This way there is a list of the offences and a visible punishment next to them.

These offences would be applicable to all, new or old so that there is no favortism.

Just an idea.

Divinity
26-09-2007, 03:49
Originally posted by playmaker:
I can't see SI limiting new posters like this. They have as much right to just get on and ask a question as the rest of us.

That shouldn't exempt them from being able to use a search function. On other forums I'm on it's mandatory for the first month of being a member - physically impossible to post a new thread unless you've searched for it beforehand.

FrazT
26-09-2007, 03:56
Originally posted by playmaker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FrazT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if the posting was made a little more difficult for those who only want to click new topic straight after registering.

Perhaps reinforcing the suggestion made earlier that before being allowed to post a new discussion or question, posters neded to fill out 2 or 3 questions about the relevancy of their post and whether it is in the right forum.
May be difficukt to implemet of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't see SI limiting new posters like this. They have as much right to just get on and ask a question as the rest of us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok then make is mandatory for ALL posters to answwer the questions before having the thread authorised- it wont stop the idiots but it will at least make everyone who wants to post a serious question or discussion be aware that they have to fit in with the guidelines. No serious poster will mind this IMO.

LFC Lloydy
26-09-2007, 04:07
I like your idea FrazT, it doesn't have to be too time consuming but it will remind/inform users of whether they are right to be posting the thread in the forum. It would also mean that nobody would have the excuse of not knowing if it was the right place.

After a while most people will get used to it and it won't really be a nuisance to them, for new members though it is a good way of getting them used to things.

I am not too sure how easy it would be to implement though.

Ter
26-09-2007, 06:19
There isn't much we can do in regards to changing the way the forum software works to do stuff like having to answer a question before posting. I don't think that is necessary anyway.

chopper99
26-09-2007, 06:35
Originally posted by Divinity:

That shouldn't exempt them from being able to use a search function. On other forums I'm on it's mandatory for the first month of being a member - physically impossible to post a new thread unless you've searched for it beforehand.

I like this idea a lot, and if it could be done I think it would be of great benefit. However, the search function would need improving to make it worthwhile.

Matthew Le God
26-09-2007, 06:40
Originally posted by LFC Lloydy:
I like your idea FrazT

it was my idea, he used bits of my idea that i said 14 hours before him


whenever a new user clicks reply or start new thread for thier first 10 posts a screen comes up with frequently asked questions which they have to click through one by one. once the have posted 10 posts without problem this function is removed from their account and they post as normal.

if anyone breaks one of the house rules aswell as cards warnings etc this function is turned back on for their next 10 posts no matter how many posts they have previously made

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

migwar
26-09-2007, 06:42
ok, i havn't really entered this debate, as i'm pretty new, but i have an opinion, so here goes...

i actually hadn't read the rules of the forums until someone was flaming someone else about using text-speak. they said it was in the rules, so i read them...

i also actually thought that all the flaming, arguing and downright rudeness was just the way people spoke to each other here, and adopted a pose accordingly...

so anyway, i now realise that is not the case, but it wasn't until miles started this thread a couple of days ago. now my stance has changed. i'm being much more helpful, and answering questions politely to the best of my ability. i'm trying to adopt a friendlier attitude and by doing this i hope others will do the same.

bottomline. if everyone on here, seasoned veterans especially were just a little more patient, polite and helpful i truly believe the general board attitude would shift a lot and quickly.

finally, i think the rules need to be more prominently displayed and advertised...

that is all

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FrazT
26-09-2007, 06:53
Originally posted by Matthew Le God:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LFC Lloydy:
I like your idea FrazT

it was my idea, he used bits of my idea that i said 14 hours before him


whenever a new user clicks reply or start new thread for thier first 10 posts a screen comes up with frequently asked questions which they have to click through one by one. once the have posted 10 posts without problem this function is removed from their account and they post as normal.

if anyone breaks one of the house rules aswell as cards warnings etc this function is turned back on for their next 10 posts no matter how many posts they have previously made

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matthew- I have no desire to enter into any debate about whose idea it is but I did make the following suggestion earlier in the thread so perhapsd you should check the whole thread before suggesying things like this. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Posted 24 September 2007 07:49 Just had a thought to try and ensure that all new threads are reasonable-

After you click on New/Discussion and before you type in your thread title, what about a couple of questions which require a yes/no answer before the thread is allowed? No answers, no thread.

For example:
If you are asking a question, have you searched to see if it has been asked before?
Is your thread relevant to the General Questions Forum?
Is your thread relevant to the current FM game?

There may be other relevant questions but these are for example only. This will not stop all nonsense getting through but will at least make posters aware that the quality of their threrad is thought about before they post it.

LFC Lloydy
26-09-2007, 07:07
I've started an argument in a thread about stopping arguments http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lets just say you are both so creative that you both came up with such a great idea. Although based on current evindence provided FrazT deserves the credit http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It really doesn't matter, the fact that you are both trying to find a solution is what is most important. You both get a thumbs up from me http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Can you feel the love? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

migwar
26-09-2007, 07:24
good save, lloydy...

rashidi1
26-09-2007, 07:48
actually kinda nice to see the old skool arguing in GQ been awhile..hmm methinks this thread has done more for GQ than any rule could have actually.

Call it a shot of awareness.

FrazT
26-09-2007, 08:21
Originally posted by LFC Lloydy:
I've started an argument in a thread about stopping arguments http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lets just say you are both so creative that you both came up with such a great idea. Although based on current evindence provided FrazT deserves the credit http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


It really doesn't matter, the fact that you are both trying to find a solution is what is most important. You both get a thumbs up from me http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Can you feel the love? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Sweeping over me as wee speak

- Couldnt care less about credit or otherwise but am keen that all ideas are debated and hopefully some good come of them http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Divinity
26-09-2007, 08:28
Originally posted by rashidi1:
actually kinda nice to see the old skool arguing in GQ been awhile..hmm methinks this thread has done more for GQ than any rule could have actually.

Call it a shot of awareness.

This is the part where I say I only came here because it was linked in OTF and I'll be scarpering back there just as soon I pick up my own seemingly inevitable warning.

Well, not quite, but GQ being what it is nowadays is the reason I don't come here, and probably still won't.

Matthew Le God
26-09-2007, 08:38
Originally posted by FrazT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LFC Lloydy:
I've started an argument in a thread about stopping arguments http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lets just say you are both so creative that you both came up with such a great idea. Although based on current evindence provided FrazT deserves the credit http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


It really doesn't matter, the fact that you are both trying to find a solution is what is most important. You both get a thumbs up from me http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Can you feel the love? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Sweeping over me as wee speak

- Couldnt care less about credit or otherwise but am keen that all ideas are debated and hopefully some good come of them http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry frazt http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i think our ideas would work well in combination as weren't completely the same but do compliment each other

Nicolai
26-09-2007, 08:49
When will the bug forums and the likes be replaced with Fm08?

Evon
26-09-2007, 09:20
Flood control. It'd stop the spamming. It's one of the reasons why I'm not as active on these forums anymore. Most of the old GPTG crowd have left actually.

birdy123
26-09-2007, 09:23
Originally posted by Evon:
Flood control. It'd stop the spamming. It's one of the reasons why I'm not as active on these forums anymore. Most of the old GPTG crowd have left actually.

Flood control is in place.

And all the GPTG crowd have left because they have no GPTG OTF thread, and are scared to enter OTF.

FrazT
26-09-2007, 09:57
Originally posted by Nicolai:
When will the bug forums and the likes be replaced with Fm08?

Regrettably they will usually be superceded as soon as the demo comes out because all the questions and comments will be about the new game. It is a shame IMO that there is little or no support for FM07 within a year of its release but I can see why it happens.

FrazT
26-09-2007, 09:57
Originally posted by Matthew Le God:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FrazT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LFC Lloydy:
I've started an argument in a thread about stopping arguments http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lets just say you are both so creative that you both came up with such a great idea. Although based on current evindence provided FrazT deserves the credit http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


It really doesn't matter, the fact that you are both trying to find a solution is what is most important. You both get a thumbs up from me http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Can you feel the love? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Sweeping over me as wee speak

- Couldnt care less about credit or otherwise but am keen that all ideas are debated and hopefully some good come of them http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry frazt http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i think our ideas would work well in combination as weren't completely the same but do compliment each other </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problems mate- http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

gangooly
26-09-2007, 10:15
I've not been on the forum anywhere near as much as I used to be and it's probably for this reason.

I agree with the main consensus that a larger (and possibly a bit stricter) mod team would be a good first step.

LRJ
26-09-2007, 10:33
Ive never been a GQ/D guy and i never will for the following reasons:

1) the crowd aint nice, you say a stupid question and it seems like you have the whole forum on your back

2) its not active enough, the same thread will stay in the top 10 for a whole day sometimes, i like new threads where you can give good asnwers because after your first in here there is no point with other (as your giving advice)

dafuge
26-09-2007, 10:35
Originally posted by birdy123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Evon:
Flood control. It'd stop the spamming. It's one of the reasons why I'm not as active on these forums anymore. Most of the old GPTG crowd have left actually.

Flood control is in place.

And all the GPTG crowd have left because they have no GPTG OTF thread, and are scared to enter OTF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always wondered why they had an off topic thread.

gavnoble
26-09-2007, 10:38
Originally posted by Liverpool Rule---Jehrome:
Ive never been a GQ/D guy and i never will for the following reasons:

1) the crowd aint nice, you say a stupid question and it seems like you have the whole forum on your back

2) its not active enough, the same thread will stay in the top 10 for a whole day sometimes, i like new threads where you can give good asnwers because after your first in here there is no point with other (as your giving advice)

1. Which is why this thread has been started by SI, to try and find a way of cutting down on the unpleasantness.

2. Sort out problem one and problem two will be sorted as well, as more people will be inclined to post threads.

LRJ
26-09-2007, 10:39
yeah GPTG is pretty dead http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i remember when the Liverpool thread was going strong, new page almost every day

There was LSTB, OST, Me, YNWA loads of us, only ever see LSTB thesedays

LRJ
26-09-2007, 10:40
Originally posted by gavnoble:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Liverpool Rule---Jehrome:
Ive never been a GQ/D guy and i never will for the following reasons:

1) the crowd aint nice, you say a stupid question and it seems like you have the whole forum on your back

2) its not active enough, the same thread will stay in the top 10 for a whole day sometimes, i like new threads where you can give good asnwers because after your first in here there is no point with other (as your giving advice)

1. Which is why this thread has been started by SI, to try and find a way of cutting down on the unpleasantness.

2. Sort out problem one and problem two will be sorted as well, as more people will be inclined to post threads. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but people are saying be more strict give more cards/bans but that will make even more people leave thus making number 2 even worse

gavnoble
26-09-2007, 10:43
Originally posted by migwar:

bottomline. if everyone on here, seasoned veterans especially were just a little more patient, polite and helpful i truly believe the general board attitude would shift a lot and quickly.

finally, i think the rules need to be more prominently displayed and advertised...

that is all

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I will disagree and say there that your definition of seasoned GQ veteran and my definition would differ somewhat.

I think some of the seasoned veterans on here who haven't been around much for whatever reason would be quite ooffended at being lumped in with the mob you're referring to!

birdy123
26-09-2007, 10:43
Originally posted by Liverpool Rule---Jehrome:
yeah GPTG is pretty dead http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i remember when the Liverpool thread was going strong, new page almost every day

There was LSTB, OST, Me, YNWA loads of us, only ever see LSTB thesedays

Called spam, mate.

gavnoble
26-09-2007, 10:51
Originally posted by Liverpool Rule---Jehrome:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:

1. Which is why this thread has been started by SI, to try and find a way of cutting down on the unpleasantness.

2. Sort out problem one and problem two will be sorted as well, as more people will be inclined to post threads.

but people are saying be more strict give more cards/bans but that will make even more people leave thus making number 2 even worse </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only time will tell. I personally believe that it will sort out the quality from the dross. Those that want to contribute will change accordingly to fit in with the rules, those that don't won't and in their case are no great loss, are they?

What I'm advocating here is not a total beat them with stick zero tolerance policy - I'm more in favour of a balanced approach.

Longer term users will remember the CM Forum and the, quite frankly, brilliant standard of moderating from Smiley Dan who was firm with his warnings when he needed to be but gave out stiffer punishments when warranted. I would say a lot of the users in there had a great deal of respect for Smiley Dan in the way he treated the users of that forum and because he was assigned that forum he was the figurehead that I've referred to a few times in earlier posts.

I still think there's room for the users of the forum to provide a friendly nudge in the right direction as well though. So long as people are re-directed to the right forums if they've posted in the wrong place or reminded that text speak or posting in capital letters is frowned upon in the right way then the forum users can be used as an asset in educating newer users in the board etiquette.

LRJ
26-09-2007, 11:02
alot of the problem in threads is, when one person insults the creator or somebody it starts a chain reaction which ends up in a big arguement

Jimbokav1971
26-09-2007, 11:04
I think part of the reason for that is that people have lost confidance in the moderating system.

It's not an excuse though.

birdy123
26-09-2007, 11:46
I think that people just get annoyed by bad threads with pages full of spam that aren't getting locked, the participating users banned, warned, etc.

Would just be nice to see some mods posting and helping out.

But I fully agree, most people also just want someone to blame, and the moderators are right in the firing line.

Jimbokav1971
26-09-2007, 11:50
To be honest birdy, I'm not blaming the moderators at all. That's why I worded it in the way I did.

I think they do a good job with the resources available but it has just been let get out of hand.

migwar
26-09-2007, 12:00
Originally posted by gavnoble:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by migwar:

bottomline. if everyone on here, seasoned veterans especially were just a little more patient, polite and helpful i truly believe the general board attitude would shift a lot and quickly.

finally, i think the rules need to be more prominently displayed and advertised...

that is all

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I will disagree and say there that your definition of seasoned GQ veteran and my definition would differ somewhat.

I think some of the seasoned veterans on here who haven't been around much for whatever reason would be quite ooffended at being lumped in with the mob you're referring to! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you can disagree all you like, my point is still valid. i'm refering to people who have a rating above 'amateur'. these people are the one's that noobs such as myself watch to see how to act. if they're just flaming people for asking a question, which was answered yesterday, then everyone else will do that...

this is what i meant by seasoned veterans...

as you can see by my joined date, the guys you are refering to i probably wouldn't even know.

i certainly never meant any offense http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

birdy123
26-09-2007, 12:06
Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
To be honest birdy, I'm not blaming the moderators at all. That's why I worded it in the way I did.

I think they do a good job with the resources available but it has just been let get out of hand.

I didn't say you were blaming the moderators, I was just agreeing with your point that people are using it as an excuse.

dannyboy24
26-09-2007, 12:39
I think what attracts a lot of members here (including myself is the reputation that SI do listen to the forum members ideas, and that the ones with the most consensus and requests do eventually make it in some form into the game.

Thats why I joined up, to give ideas etc. But when you do post ideas they most often getting buried in an avalanche, after having 2 replies.

I think we really need a seperate suggestions sub-forum, but one with a different set up to the current forums. An area where, members post there ideas, giving as much detail to them as they think neccesary. And While replies and discussion would be welcome, the point of subforum would be to rate the various ideas. So that hopefully the most liked ideas would float to the top.

The hope would be that with a good place to air ideas, it would reduce the load on the general forum.

Jimbokav1971
26-09-2007, 13:24
Originally posted by birdy123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
To be honest birdy, I'm not blaming the moderators at all. That's why I worded it in the way I did.

I think they do a good job with the resources available but it has just been let get out of hand.

I didn't say you were blaming the moderators, I was just agreeing with your point that people are using it as an excuse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok. Gotcha.

FrazT
26-09-2007, 23:01
I think we really need a seperate suggestions sub-forum, but one with a different set up to the current forums. An area where, members post there ideas, giving as much detail to them as they think neccesary. And While replies and discussion would be welcome, the point of subforum would be to rate the various ideas. So that hopefully the most liked ideas would float to the top.

The hope would be that with a good place to air ideas, it would reduce the load on the general foru


This is a good idea and certainly worth considering especially to take some of the load off the GQ forum.

chopper99
27-09-2007, 00:16
Something that just struck me as I was looking at the T&TT forum this morning is that the stickied threads don't stand out that much from the other threads really. Despite being in bold I think that because they are the same colour as the other thread titles it's sometimes easy for you to forget about them and move onto the main bulk of the forum.

I think something as simple as making the Forum Rules and FAQ stickies a different colour to the rest of the thread titles (as well as being bold) will draw newer members attention to them more effectively and may cut down on the number of rule breaks and repeated questions. The FAQ in the tactics forum is very useful and something like this made obvious in GQ could be also.

The search function could be more obvious as well.

emgergo
27-09-2007, 02:34
WHS ^

I also think that the stickied threads are not separated enough.

Box
27-09-2007, 04:24
Personally I happen to think the SI boards are among the best moderated boards I frequent.

I regularly check different forums,and have been on these forums since 2000(ish).I even run my own 600 user forum and base my forum admin policy from the example I have seen here.

What you have to rememebr is forum and internet activity is much more popular than it was 6-7 years back, and its getting more and more frequent all the time. A lot more people have internet access, especially kids.With more people frequenting the forums it's inevitable that you are going to see an increase in some of the idiots who don't bother reading rules or abiding by your codes of conduct.

I understand it's putting some members of the community off and I personally don't post much because of this, but it doesnt stop me visiting and reading the fourm.

I'm surprised at the attitude of the SI staff TBH, basically saying that its getting a bit too hostile so we basically wont come here anymore. I think thats a poor way to react to an increase in what we all see every day on the internet. Especially as this is exactly why SI's games have been so popular - because of the interaction with the community.

I would have expected SI to understand this increase in poor forum conduct. Whilst I agree it's a nightmare and it does grind you down searching through the pointless posts and sorting the chaff from the real gems of posts.

I think the only way to combat it is to just enforce the rules you have already, again as already suggested this is simply to increase the number of moderators.

The only other way to reduce the idiots signing up is to possible introduce subscribed boards, perhaps asking for a subscription donation or a small joining fee to subscribe to certain boards. I certainly would have no problem donating towards aboard that some of the idiot posters wouldnt/couldnt post on and perhaps your admins could prioritise these boards for moderation. The free boards could then perhaps be a little more "relaxed" with the moderation.

Also I would suggest doing AWAY with the forum ranking system! These only lead to an increase in spam!!! If you want to rank users and give them ratings introduce a KARMA system whereby people are rewarded/smited by their posts. Or you could also give "paying" members a rating system of their own so people can instantly see who are the more serious members of the forum.

Just my thoughts

Dayle Wood
27-09-2007, 04:42
People paying to come on the forums would cause an uproar I suspect. I doubt you would get much support for that.

Ter
27-09-2007, 05:13
I'm surprised at the attitude of the SI staff TBH, basically saying that its getting a bit too hostile so we basically wont come here anymore. I think thats a poor way to react to an increase in what we all see every day on the internet. Especially as this is exactly why SI's games have been so popular - because of the interaction with the community.

I would have expected SI to understand this increase in poor forum conduct. Whilst I agree it's a nightmare and it does grind you down searching through the pointless posts and sorting the chaff from the real gems of posts.

I think the only way to combat it is to just enforce the rules you have already, again as already suggested this is simply to increase the number of moderators.

It is a bit demoralising coming on here sometimes when, for example, we've been working our arses off all week then come on here for a bit of relaxation or whatever and see people abusing each other and/or some harsh deconstructive criticism of the game.

If we can make it a more pleasant place on here then maybe some more of the SI staff will be more active again. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rashidi1
27-09-2007, 05:47
I've been about this for a bit, and I have to think that Custom titles are beginning to make more sense. I agree wholeheartedly that the current karma system that tallies up our posts and gives us a title makes no sense to me. It certainly rewards people for making posts, it also rewards those for making nonsensical posts.

There is a tendency for people to imitate others, its a natural sociological event. It really makes more sense to me that there should be more moderators and that there should be a way to identify and reward the more constructive posters.

Posts by Dave C, Amaroq and a whole host of other OPs continually get swept away under the tide of new members eager to get their post count up. If we were to do away with this and instead introduce custom titles for individuals that continue to set a good example it would also act as encouragement for others to follow suit.

These need not be serious titles, even humorous ones will serve a good purpose, furthermore custom titles unique to forums will allow new users to understand where certain suggestions come from. An individual who continually posts great stories and comes in here to talk about these would have a custom title "Order of the Scribe".

These custom titles should only be individuals who have posted sensibly in the past month, a list could be short-listed everymonth posted in GQ, and the mods can go and do a secret ballot.

I do not suggest an open ballot for obvious reasons of administration. Going forward, this may be something worth considering.

medievalist
27-09-2007, 05:47
Ok, I mean this as constructive criticism and I hope it will be taken as such.

Just now we had a bunch of threads locked in GQ (the Crouch one, 'just tell us how to win', etc.) and I'm not saying that those threads should not have been locked, but it would also have been good if whichever mod did it left a brief explanation as to why.

Enforcement of standards is good, but making those standards crystal clear is just as important. Was it the thread itself - a dupe, in the wrong place, or stupid? Was it the replies? Over time (hopefully) the community will learn these standards and there will be less threads that need locking.

Ter
27-09-2007, 06:04
rashidi - We had custom titles in the past and had nothing but bother from people being jealous that others had them, posts about how to get them and they ended up being more hassle than they are worth. I wouldn't be keen on reintroducing them. In fact, I would get rid of the karma titles altogether.

rashidi1
27-09-2007, 06:42
I agree whenever a thread is closed there should be a response even if the reasons were obvious. They are many reasons a mod may close a thread. I wouldn't know the particulars of those threads however.

rashidi1
27-09-2007, 06:43
I think karma titles should go as well.

medievalist
27-09-2007, 06:43
Yeah, I don't particularly care about those specific threads, it was just a convenient example. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FrazT
27-09-2007, 06:53
Originally posted by rashidi1:
I agree whenever a thread is closed there should be a response even if the reasons were obvious. They are many reasons a mod may close a thread. I wouldn't know the particulars of those threads however.

This is a point that has been raised a number of times and is surely something small that could be done to educate poster who break the rules.

rashidi1
27-09-2007, 07:45
Yeah but sometimes despite giving the same reason to the same OP repeatedly, it goes go, which is why we sometimes just go and close the thread.

Usually in most cases the mods do give reasons for closing a thread, there are times though we do feel like we rushing from room to room reading a litany of threads, moderating and still trying to get on with our normal lifes, not to mention get some game time in as well -)

Beret83
27-09-2007, 08:13
Hi Everyone!

I'n new to the forum but been an avid fan of FM for years. Have to say this is a great forum where else can you chat with makers of the game themselves!

Looking forward to Sunday.....thanks to SI for the wonder of FM!

Box
27-09-2007, 08:21
Originally posted by Ter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm surprised at the attitude of the SI staff TBH, basically saying that its getting a bit too hostile so we basically wont come here anymore. I think thats a poor way to react to an increase in what we all see every day on the internet. Especially as this is exactly why SI's games have been so popular - because of the interaction with the community.

I would have expected SI to understand this increase in poor forum conduct. Whilst I agree it's a nightmare and it does grind you down searching through the pointless posts and sorting the chaff from the real gems of posts.

I think the only way to combat it is to just enforce the rules you have already, again as already suggested this is simply to increase the number of moderators.

It is a bit demoralising coming on here sometimes when, for example, we've been working our arses off all week then come on here for a bit of relaxation or whatever and see people abusing each other and/or some harsh deconstructive criticism of the game.

If we can make it a more pleasant place on here then maybe some more of the SI staff will be more active again. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without sounding disrespectful or judgmental, maybe you should try relaxing another way. After I go home from work and I want to unwid I tend to move away from things that are related to my job - which is IT related. I dont go home and start tinkering with PC's or building websites etc.

Perhaps thats part of the reason you all are getting weary - at high pressure times of work, which it undoubtedly is at the moment at SI, you lads are bound to feel a bit of the pressure - and then to come on here and face thousands of fans, many of whom are just wasting their time (and ours!) with nagging and bitching - its no wonder you arent as enthusiastic as you have been in the past.

It's understandable, and I understand only too well from running my smaller community and forums, sometimes after working your arse off all day then to be confronted by a hundred and one childish complaints and spiteful posts, it does take the pleasure of the forum and even the game its self away from you.

It's understandable and you have my empathay, and to be honest. This is something I have often wondered about the SI team, with all the best will in the world and the great enthusiast the team undoubtedly has, its incredible they even come on here at all! Thats why I believe whole heartedly that these forums should have an exclusive area for subscribed members only - it generally weeds out the fly buy nights who aren't serious about being a committed and friendly member of this community.

People who are willing to subscribe to these forums , or at least a dedicated section fo the forum, are clearly only interested in the good of the community and are far more likely to make this a more pleasant and friendly place. They are far less likely to risk their subscriptions by making ridiculous comments and spamming the forums with the normal crap we get.

In summary my recommendations are:-

- Introduce a subscribed section of the forum. Profits of which could possibly be used in someway to benefit the paying community, perhaps produce an online magazine, im not sure, thats open to debate.

- Do away with the forum members ranking system all together. perhaps replace it with a forum karma system that is like the one used by proboards , where karma points are awarded by fellow forum users based on the usefulness/relevance of members posts.

- Introduce more moderators.

Matthew Le God
27-09-2007, 08:25
Box,

not many will pay to use these forums, i certainly wouldn't

Box
27-09-2007, 08:28
Thats a fair point. But there again going by your recent posts and your warnings, perhaps the thats the whole point and perhaps that proves what I'm saying.

Box
27-09-2007, 08:31
Besides, I wasnt suggesting making the whole forum subscribed, just a small section. I personally wouldn't mind paying a small subscription fee if I thought it was going to be better moderated and wasnt going to be spammed to death by 13 year old kids who haven't used the search button, haven't read the rules of the forum and have no intention of committing to the community and are only here to find out the "ultimate tactic" and the "best players"

Jimbokav1971
27-09-2007, 08:33
Sorry Box but I don't think it does.

You need to get away from thinking of these forums like a community run by and for the benefit of the community like many other forums are.

This forum is used as an advertising tool by SI and is run in that way. That is why the Mods are instructed to only ban people as a last resort.

SI want people to come in here and discuss the game. It is worth it's theoretical weight in advertising and costs them very little.

And anyway, shave off that sill tache and change out of that ridiculous hawian shirt http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

birdy123
27-09-2007, 08:40
The forums would be empty if you had to pay. People would just migrate to other forums.

Box
27-09-2007, 08:41
Fair point, but if thats the case how come this initial topic has actually come from SI? If this is really just one big marketing exercisers why would they even care about what we get up to on here?

I personally don't think it is, and I genuinely believe that this is a community and having frequented the forums since about 1999/2000 you can see how much impact the members of this community have actually had on the game over the years.

Also why would the SI guys come on here outside their work hours if they weren't genuinely fans of the game and sincere in their commitment to the game and it's fans?

PS I'll lose the tash and Hawaian shirt but im keeping the Ferrari and the chopper! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Box
27-09-2007, 08:43
Originally posted by birdy123:
The forums would be empty if you had to pay. People would just migrate to other forums.

Many would migrate,but who would be left? The die hards and genuine committed fans.

It would be a case of quality over quantity. Besides, you would still have a fair proportion of the forum free, just a select few boards for exclusive use.

gavnoble
27-09-2007, 08:57
SI did an April Fool a couple of years back when they joked about introducing fees - did not go down well!

I've heard in the past that SI pay thousands each month for the forum but believe it's an expense worth paying due to the amount of input they get back from the forums. Charging people to make this input would be a non-starter as no matter how committed you are I don't think many would actually pay to use these forums. I certainly wouldn't.

Box
27-09-2007, 09:00
Then perhaps SI should decide what they want;

a free for all forum whereby they have to put up with the inevitable arguments and idiots who are here for something to do , but whereby they get to advertise and pluck the odd tasty idea

or nice friendly community where people are genuinely interested in the advancement of the game and sharing their experiences of the game

As I see it, it's impossible to have both.

gavnoble
27-09-2007, 09:05
It is impossible to have both and you never will have an argument free community as people will inevitably clash, but it is not impossible to reverse the way the standards have declined on this forum, particularly over the last 12 months.

It has been more civil in the past and I truly believe it can be again.

Box
27-09-2007, 09:17
I blame it on the general standards of the internet community as a whole and the increase in internet users. This kind of thing is common place on every forum, I think it's going to be very , very difficulty to reverse to be honest without punishing the genuine users of the forum and making them feel like they are in the forum of stalag luft.

Is what you are saying gav is possibly the moderators anrt enforcing the rules as well as they could/should be? Because I happen to think they do a decent enough job as is ot be fair, in fact sometimes I think that perhaps sometimes some of them are even a little overzealous.

I think to have a free and useful service that SI seem to want, they have to either take measures to stop some of the younger and/or dafter people signing up. What happened to the days when you need a proper email address to register? Perhaps they should introduce a system of forum membership that comes with a paid for version of FM?

bob
27-09-2007, 10:08
how about a NEWS page maybe stickied or maybe a redirect upon entering the forums to help cut down on the usual 'whens the new patch out' an stuff, where you can see an official line on a certain subject or a certain date for a patch release or a simple 'there is NO set date for this/that!' and you could also include some tidbits an other stories and the like!!

as for the bullying/ill will, i think sterner punishments maybe(?) and clear and concise warnings about any future consequences for peoples actions if they continue! it should also be across the boards as i have seen long standing members get away with stuff that would not have been tolerated if it was by a newbie!

dannyboy24
27-09-2007, 10:09
I really think any sort of paid area is a bad idea, or indeed any structure which elevates certain members over others for anything other than quality of posts.

Box
27-09-2007, 10:16
Originally posted by bob:
how about a NEWS page maybe stickied or maybe a redirect upon entering the forums to help cut down on the usual 'whens the new patch out' an stuff, where you can see an official line on a certain subject or a certain date for a patch release or a simple 'there is NO set date for this/that!' and you could also include some tidbits an other stories and the like!!

as for the bullying/ill will, i think sterner punishments maybe(?) and clear and concise warnings about any future consequences for peoples actions if they continue! it should also be across the boards as i have seen long standing members get away with stuff that would not have been tolerated if it was by a newbie!

There used to be an announcements board, I'm not convinced people in this lazy time will be bothered to go search for the answers they need there, its far easier to make a post and get people to reply to you.

However I agree with your posts about uneven moderating, I too have seen examples of longer standing members being let off with comments/posts that a newr memebr would be slated for.

Perhaps temporary bans with clear information as to why they have been banned is the answer. 24 hour, 48 hour or eve week long bans may help change peoples attitudes, then perhaps if those aent working revert to a permanent ban.

Also think about using the old system of only allowing new members to register who have a paid for email account , its much easier to keep tabs on those members and restrict them from just creatinga new account to get banned.

Kris
27-09-2007, 10:21
Groupee (our forum software) has premium membership and the "april fools joke" about introducing subscription services a year ago could easily have become true.

I believe that there is an area for premium content for a subscription fee. It works well at arstechnica , a very big forum compared to ours.

Forums have "cycles", everything returns to a previous state every x months, where the state is either considered good or bad by the community or by the forum owners. The two are not necessarily in agreement.

The forums cost used to be in the ,000's per month but a switch to a shared hosted (as opposed to opentopic dedicated server) server ubb.x system has reduced this cost.

As for introducing reasons for thread closures, the obivous closures dont need a reason as you are instructed to read the house rules in the welcome / sign up email.

bob
27-09-2007, 10:25
Originally posted by Box:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bob:
how about a NEWS page maybe stickied or maybe a redirect upon entering the forums to help cut down on the usual 'whens the new patch out' an stuff, where you can see an official line on a certain subject or a certain date for a patch release or a simple 'there is NO set date for this/that!' and you could also include some tidbits an other stories and the like!!

as for the bullying/ill will, i think sterner punishments maybe(?) and clear and concise warnings about any future consequences for peoples actions if they continue! it should also be across the boards as i have seen long standing members get away with stuff that would not have been tolerated if it was by a newbie!

There used to be an announcements board, I'm not convinced people in this lazy time will be bothered to go search for the answers they need there, its far easier to make a post and get people to reply to you.

However I agree with your posts about uneven moderating, I too have seen examples of longer standing members being let off with comments/posts that a newr memebr would be slated for.

Perhaps temporary bans with clear information as to why they have been banned is the answer. 24 hour, 48 hour or eve week long bans may help change peoples attitudes, then perhaps if those aent working revert to a permanent ban.

Also think about using the old system of only allowing new members to register who have a paid for email account , its much easier to keep tabs on those members and restrict them from just creatinga new account to get banned. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats why i think a redirect would be better as it could include links to popular threads at that moment. news on upcoming stuff or news in general!

if it was worth the read, people would stop and read it!

i dont think a paid for email account is the way to go though!

Kris
27-09-2007, 10:27
Box, we are not going to introduce even more banning options which would add a complete minefield of complaints and even more admnistrative time required.

Over the years I have regulary spent over 6 hours a day on top of my usual work time "on forum".I'd say about 70-80% of this was admin/software development. Kinda leaves very little time to enjoy the fourms

Alurny
27-09-2007, 10:42
Originally posted by dannyboy24:
I really think any sort of paid area is a bad idea, or indeed any structure which elevates certain members over others for anything other than quality of posts.

Agree.

Paying your way to titles isn't really the best thing!

We need:

- A larger base of users with moderating abilities
- A better attitude towards new users: only post if your post is going to be useful
- Shorter bans so users can "learn" from their mistakes
- Bans enforced more clearly

Despite all this I enjoy the board immensely.

Amaroq
27-09-2007, 11:30
Community - I don't agree with the person who said that they don't feel a sense of community. I do feel one, and in class posters like Dave C, wwfan, dafuge, playmaker, rashidi1, Peacemaker7, Terk, Jimbokav, Ackter, and many other of you, I feel connected to a bunch of intelligent, well-spoken, like-minded people. I've exchanged e-mails with a number of folks, and I enjoy that!

Getting replies from Ter, Marc Vaughan, Miles, and others, that's exciting! I think its a beautiful thing how responsive SI are to the community. I wish my company matched your example, gentlemen - and your presence on these forums engenders a loyalty-of-customer feeling that I don't have for most other companies.

Sure, the new user doesn't feel that. But its up to the rest of us to provide the environment that nurtures those relationships, and helps the new user grow into that productive style of behavior.

Karma - I'm with rashidi1 on this one. I think the system of "title from volume" is pretty ludicrous; it encourages the behavior we want to discourage. If "+1" in a thread you can tell is about to get closed is worth just as much as one of Dave C's epic articles.. **shaking my head**

On the other hand, acknowledgement-from-the-community, whether its in the form of an *actual* Karma system, user-voted awards, a custom-title system, or otherwise, can be used to encourage the behaviors we want.

There's plenty of simple 'karma' systems out there, preventing the grief that one guy who takes a dislike to somebody can do whilst rewarding the sort of community we want to see.

I'd love to see the GQ awards reinstated; it was a lot of fun.

Bullying - I think this has been well discussed. Low tolerance policing by the mods is one thing we can do.

As a community, however, there's two other things we can do.

One is to use the search ourselves to find the guy his topic. If the first answer posted is "There's already a topic on it - Link", that's an infinitely better experience for the new user than "ffs do a search!"

Two is, let it go! If the first answer posted was a link, and then there are no other replies.. the topic drops off the first page quick enough. No biggie - and certainly no need for piling on.

And finally, there are some "rules" which a new user should be informed of if they're breaking them, e.g. "no sms speak", but there's no reason that can't be done politely by one established member of the community: "Answer-to-your-question, and by the way, we have plenty of non-native English speakers on the forum who don't understand sms-speak, please use proper English"

And the guy who piles on with "No sms speak!" two replies further down might merit a warning for it - for ignoring the first reply.

Signal to Noise - I suspect GQ is withering because the signal-to-noise ratio has been constantly dropping since I first joined. Its what chased off Dave C, and I've gotten to the point where I'm perusing every tenth topic at most, and like playmaker, it doesn't feel worth posting my ideas for discussion; there's nothing more frustrating than a ten-paragraph post followed by four one-line replies, the whistle of the wind, and a passing tumbleweed.

I suspect one of the reasons bullying starts is because users get frustrated with the signal-to-noise ratio. Rather than seeing the excited 13-year-old making his first post on a forum, they see "one more jerk asking when the Demo's gonna be out - for the tenth time today!"

Proper forum etiquette, of course, was to lurk for a couple days and get a feel for what the frequent topics are, read the first page or two to see if you can find your question, maybe do a search.

Maybe we could do something like "new accounts can read but can't post for 48 hours?", "new accounts can read but can't post until they've read the forum rules for the current forum", or "new accounts can ready but can't post until they've read ten (twenty?) threads".

The idea isn't to be exclusionary, just to drill home the "You've got to read!" perspective. Obviously, you've got to set the bar, whatever it is, low enough that your excited-13-year-old comes through it still-excitemed, but hopefully a little wiser.

Bans - My company uses 24- and 72-hour bans (on a site with 20M subscribers). It works very well, just enough of a "bip on the nose" to get the attention, while not enough to turn the person off of the site permanently.

Obviously, a trouble-child is going to pick up a 24-, then a 72-, and possibly a lifetime ban thereafter..

The "short bans" would be very effective when coupled with the "new users can't post for 48 hours" idea, as it prevents you from just making a new hotmail account and piling back into your discussion with an alias.

Liam Harper
27-09-2007, 11:36
Hope this gets sorted http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. i'm rarely on here meself nowadays. WoW taking up most me time and FM has lost it's magic with me. Still downloading the new demo when it's released http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Would always be nice to have the old feeling of the CM (at the time) forums back http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gazzaroon
27-09-2007, 12:11
Originally posted by Amaroq:
Community - I don't agree with the person who said that they don't feel a sense of community. I do feel one, and in class posters like Dave C, wwfan, dafuge, playmaker, rashidi1, Peacemaker7, Terk, Jimbokav, Ackter, and many other of you, I feel connected to a bunch of intelligent, well-spoken, like-minded people. I've exchanged e-mails with a number of folks, and I enjoy that!

Getting replies from Ter, Marc Vaughan, Miles, and others, that's exciting! I think its a beautiful thing how responsive SI are to the community. I wish my company matched your example, gentlemen - and your presence on these forums engenders a loyalty-of-customer feeling that I don't have for most other companies.

Sure, the new user doesn't feel that. But its up to the rest of us to provide the environment that nurtures those relationships, and helps the new user grow into that productive style of behavior.

Karma - I'm with rashidi1 on this one. I think the system of "title from volume" is pretty ludicrous; it encourages the behavior we want to discourage. If "+1" in a thread you can tell is about to get closed is worth just as much as one of Dave C's epic articles.. **shaking my head**

On the other hand, acknowledgement-from-the-community, whether its in the form of an *actual* Karma system, user-voted awards, a custom-title system, or otherwise, can be used to encourage the behaviors we want.

There's plenty of simple 'karma' systems out there, preventing the grief that one guy who takes a dislike to somebody can do whilst rewarding the sort of community we want to see.

I'd love to see the GQ awards reinstated; it was a lot of fun.

Bullying - I think this has been well discussed. Low tolerance policing by the mods is one thing we can do.

As a community, however, there's two other things we can do.

One is to use the search ourselves to find the guy his topic. If the first answer posted is "There's already a topic on it - Link", that's an infinitely better experience for the new user than "ffs do a search!"

Two is, let it go! If the first answer posted was a link, and then there are no other replies.. the topic drops off the first page quick enough. No biggie - and certainly no need for piling on.

And finally, there are some "rules" which a new user should be informed of if they're breaking them, e.g. "no sms speak", but there's no reason that can't be done politely by one established member of the community: "Answer-to-your-question, and by the way, we have plenty of non-native English speakers on the forum who don't understand sms-speak, please use proper English"

And the guy who piles on with "No sms speak!" two replies further down might merit a warning for it - for ignoring the first reply.

Signal to Noise - I suspect GQ is withering because the signal-to-noise ratio has been constantly dropping since I first joined. Its what chased off Dave C, and I've gotten to the point where I'm perusing every tenth topic at most, and like playmaker, it doesn't feel worth posting my ideas for discussion; there's nothing more frustrating than a ten-paragraph post followed by four one-line replies, the whistle of the wind, and a passing tumbleweed.

I suspect one of the reasons bullying starts is because users get frustrated with the signal-to-noise ratio. Rather than seeing the excited 13-year-old making his first post on a forum, they see "one more jerk asking when the Demo's gonna be out - for the tenth time today!"

Proper forum etiquette, of course, was to lurk for a couple days and get a feel for what the frequent topics are, read the first page or two to see if you can find your question, maybe do a search.

Maybe we could do something like "new accounts can read but can't post for 48 hours?", "new accounts can read but can't post until they've read the forum rules for the current forum", or "new accounts can ready but can't post until they've read ten (twenty?) threads".

The idea isn't to be exclusionary, just to drill home the "You've got to read!" perspective. Obviously, you've got to set the bar, whatever it is, low enough that your excited-13-year-old comes through it still-excitemed, but hopefully a little wiser.

Bans - My company uses 24- and 72-hour bans (on a site with 20M subscribers). It works very well, just enough of a "bip on the nose" to get the attention, while not enough to turn the person off of the site permanently.

Obviously, a trouble-child is going to pick up a 24-, then a 72-, and possibly a lifetime ban thereafter..

The "short bans" would be very effective when coupled with the "new users can't post for 48 hours" idea, as it prevents you from just making a new hotmail account and piling back into your discussion with an alias.

Well reasoned and logical comments made by amaroq and maybe something SI should look into.

One of the points I have read was about the forums being an 'Advertising Tool' for SI. I am sure it is but a non-regulated Forum would simply begin to create negative publicity as more and more people become unhappy or feel bullied and move away and word begins to spread.Thus creating negative advertising and eventually have an adverse effect.

Being polite isn't expensive or time consuming it is simply a way of life.

I think the Karma system has to be changed to a system that more reflects the effectiveness of the person posting or to be done away with altogether. What does it matter how many posts you have made?

I would love the place to get back to a couple of years ago or so when things were definately nicer and there were some really good threads and discussions.

However, it is also up to the community to try and police itself and make clear to those people who do bully, post destructive posts etc that it isn't acceptable nor is it clever.

oescus
27-09-2007, 12:11
The attitude and demeanour of some of the posters is why I do not offer many posts. One other is, I do not see the point of talking if you haven't anything to say.
There are people getting into the game all the time. Some, like myself are not pc literate and require more assistance than others. I have sometimes found replies rather less than helpful. Good luck in your efforts Miles.It is long overdue. Kind regards.

Glyn
27-09-2007, 12:24
One thing I'd like to see (even though I know it wouldn't happen) is for there to be a unique code inside the FM box that gives the purchaser access to parts of the messageboard.

Keeps the pirates out, and makes sure that reported bugs are proper ones and not resulting from cracked games. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Spanky
27-09-2007, 12:37
Re The Karma Points/Titles discussion on the Previous Page:

I agree that custom titles could be a nightmare as casual posters feel unappreciated and jealousy arises.

I'd like to write a reasonably long post on three words (and two asterisks) in Amaroq's excellent post above: "*actual* Karma system".

I think a system of voted Karma could work a lot better. Each logged in user would be able to vote for or against each post once and the poster accumulates both positive and negative karma which is disclosed as a "helpfulness percentage" of positive votes/total number of votes.

So as an example, suppose a thread is started where a member asks when the demo is out. The first reply is "ffs use a search" by Negative Nic. The second reply is "Sunday - see the official thread *link*" by Positive Pete. Thread is then locked. People come along and see this thread and disagree with the negative post. Negative Nic gets 19 negative karma votes and one positive vote (from his mother). Pete's post is seen to be helpful and so Positive Pete gets 20 positive votes.

Underneath our two members locations, is now a helpfulness percentage ie for Nic it's 5% (1/20) and for Pete it's 100% (20/20). These percentages will change the more Pete and Nic post. In addition, maybe Nic and Pete's posts on that particular thread could change colour due to the posts' overwhelming alignment (eg Nic's red and Pete's blue). Each post could be remarked as having x positive votes and y negative votes.

It would not apply to OTF else it'd be ineffective.

This method would have the following advantages:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> It would reward excellent posters such as Dave C or Amaroq with a feeling of recognition
<LI> It would equally reward posters (and I consider myself in this bracket) who lack the inspiration to come up with a brilliant new idea, or the eloquence/writing skills to communicate an idea effectively, but try to be as helpful as possible
<LI> Due to the large number of members as mentioned by Kris, individuals who try and ruin the spitit of the system eg by voting positively for "ffs" replies because they agree would largely be crowded out by the good meaning members (and the fact that this is on page 9 is surely a testament to the fact that they're out there)
<LI> Members could skip past the unhelpful posts quickly on a thread as they are coloured red
<LI> When SI look to start an exclusive thread for only the well meaning posters, they could use this percentage as a cut-off point (in addition to some measure of posts made). Not only would it serve to encourage good posting but it would be convenient for SI to search that way
<LI> The voting buttons could be labelled "+1" and <insert wall banging smiley here> in keeping with the communal feeling of the forum!
[/list]


Anyway, there's my two cents - it's a great debate lads - well done everyone!

Neji
27-09-2007, 12:45
I like the idea Amaroq posted about 48 hour period of not being able to post, I'm sure that would stop a whole load of useless threads and people would be jumping on others less as a result.

And Glyn, I like your idea but what about people who want to post on the board but don't have the game? It would be helpful for the bug forum, as you rightly said but GQ wouldn't benefit from it.

Lastly, I'd like to see a 'Kudos' system. Instead of the post count, I think it should be replaced by a system ranking posters. So if I posted a question on help with tactics and one of the more knowledgeable posters helped me, I could then thank them. This way the good posters would acknowledged. Instead of people posting one line useless replies to get the post count up, they would be forced to post something useful if they want a good rank.

dafuge
27-09-2007, 13:28
The "*actual* Karma system" sounds like a really good idea. So often I have read an excellent response from Amaroq, but been unable to contribute anything afterwards that hasn't already been covered.

I feel a bit awkward just posting something like 'brillant post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif' because if everyone does that then the discussion would become lost amongst all the short replies. People like Amaroq and some of the others mentioned earlier really need something that makes them stand out from the others as these are the people that make the biggest contributions to the forums.

An option for negative feedback would also discourage people from making the unhelpful 'ffs do a search' type comments.

thefootman
27-09-2007, 14:12
To be honest I'd never really understood how the Karma system worked at all until I noticed that someone who had
registered more recently than I had already moved up a level.From what I've been reading here it seems that it must
have been as a result of the sheer volume of posts he/she had been making.

I agree it doesn't seem right that some of the excellent,informative and simply inspired posts that appear on these forums
from many brilliant members (some of whom have already been mentioned) should be rewarded with the same rating (is it 1 point
per post?) as those less deserving.

I'm sure SI will take great heart from the fact that this thread proves that a lot of us (even the less articulate and
insightful among us,and I include myself in that) do care.

So far there have been lots of ideas sensibly discussed and it has been an illuminating read.
Regards to everyone who has conributed. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Ackter
27-09-2007, 14:22
Any actual karma system would need to be forum-specific.

Extending it to the likes of OTF would be pointless for example, while being a good poster in GQ is not much help in the LLM forum.

Ackter
27-09-2007, 14:26
I agree it doesn't seem right that some of the excellent,informative and simply inspired posts that appear on these forums
from many brilliant members (some of whom have already been mentioned) should be rewarded with the same rating (is it 1 point
per post?) as those less deserving.

I doubt you'd find that any of those posters would care either way.

Karma in its current form is good for new users as it helps them feel involved, but there should be a cut-off point - say after a certain amount of time or posts your karma rating is no longer visible.

Tim Madisun
27-09-2007, 14:29
My 2p.

I've seen the system of not being able to post actual threads for a certain amount of time as a newbie on a different site work well.

I post regularly at Metafilter (http://metafilter.com) and some of their practices would be applicable here. There are limits for new members in posting a new thread - you have to wait a week after registering and post 5 comments before you can physically post a thread.

Once you've served your probation, so to speak, you can then only post a new thread once a week. Comments, as much as you like. This encourages people to really consider what thread they want to post, plus breaks a new user into the community at a slower pace. Mods are friendly and do much the same type of job as ours, with a large volume of posts and a certain amount of editing.

Users of the site can also bring up questions/improvements/grievances in a separate "forum". I note we don't really have a place for this. In fact, the only way we can contact mods is via an email address. I'd like to see a place where we can discuss issues/new features/questions much like we have in this thread.

I'm not a fan so much of karma points as personally I'd be concerned that too much emphasis would be placed on both garnering favour with the regulars, encouraging groupthink rather than diversity. I'm all for thanking good people for good posts, I'm just not convinced that a rating system is the best way.

So to summarise:

- Delay first post for a week and a few comments
- New forum for questions/issues/improvements
- No karma points, just current post count system

saved_by_barry_horne
27-09-2007, 14:35
Amoraq - snsible and eloquent posting as ever. in full agreement with all those suggestions.

Moving to dafuge's point:


I feel a bit awkward just posting something like 'brillant post ' because if everyone does that then the discussion would become lost amongst all the short replies. People like Amaroq and some of the others mentioned earlier really need something that makes them stand out from the others as these are the people that make the biggest contributions to the forums.

Totally understand how you feel when someone else has made an excellent point and there is nothing left to add.

My only worry about actual karma would be if people start giving -ve karma for responses such as 'excellent idea' or 'whs', (basically validating someone elses point/suggestion) because they've not actually contributed further to a thread.

Amaroq
27-09-2007, 14:37
Originally posted by Ackter:
Karma in its current form is good for new users as it helps them feel involved, but there should be a cut-off point - say after a certain amount of time or posts your karma rating is no longer visible.
Unless you spend a lot of time posting, or post a lot of one-liners, it doesn't grow very rapidly at all. It felt like it took me forever to reach "Part-timer".

Your "Different karma systems for different forums" idea actually makes very good sense; as you say, a GQ legend may be an utter noob in LLM or FMS. "+1" might be an appropriate karma system in OTF, and in fact the OTF'ers are probably the ones most invested in the current system; letting them keep it might make it easier to "sell" a "*actual* Karma system" for GQ. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PS - dafuge, the feeling is mutual!

Amaroq
27-09-2007, 14:41
Originally posted by Tim Madisun:
There are limits for new members in posting a new thread - you have to wait a week after registering and post 5 comments before you can physically post a thread.

Once you've served your probation, so to speak, you can then only post a new thread once a week. Comments, as much as you like. This encourages people to really consider what thread they want to post.
What was dafuge's line? Oh yeah. "Brilliant! http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif"

Seriously, I like that idea a lot. Would seriously help the "Sign up, post three threads asking FAQ's in my first ten minutes" problem.

I'd imagine the "one thread a week" probation relaxes over time?

Ackter
27-09-2007, 14:51
See this is what threads used to be like a few years ago.

Pages of discussion and idea developmet.

Pros and Cons etc

It's quite disapointing that this is one of the only threads of this ilk for such a long time.

Jimbokav1971
27-09-2007, 14:57
Originally posted by Ackter:
See this is what threads used to be like a few years ago.

Pages of discussion and idea developmet.

Pros and Cons etc

It's quite disapointing that this is one of the only threads of this ilk for such a long time.

Yeah but Ackter, very similar ideas were suggested in a similar thread that I linked to back on page 2-3 just over a year ago and absolutely nothing was done about it.

If they don't put something into action then will we be here again next year?

Ackter
27-09-2007, 14:59
I think the fact that nothing has got better is the reason why SI are discussing this so publicly now.

Spanky
27-09-2007, 15:01
Originally posted by Amaroq:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tim Madisun:
There are limits for new members in posting a new thread - you have to wait a week after registering and post 5 comments before you can physically post a thread.

Once you've served your probation, so to speak, you can then only post a new thread once a week. Comments, as much as you like. This encourages people to really consider what thread they want to post.
What was dafuge's line? Oh yeah. "Brilliant! http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif"

Seriously, I like that idea a lot. Would seriously help the "Sign up, post three threads asking FAQ's in my first ten minutes" problem.

I'd imagine the "one thread a week" probation relaxes over time? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This in conjunction with a well written FAQ could be very effective.

Members sign up looking to ask basic questions and since they can't post, they might look around and find their answer. Bold the FAQ sticky, increase the font size and mention the FAQ in bold in the activation/welcome to the forums email.

I think Ter said earlier that a FAQ was tried and still there was no joy, but if new members can't post then they might be more inclined to root around and find out the answers themselves.

Spanky
27-09-2007, 15:04
Yeah but Ackter, very similar ideas were suggested in a similar thread that I linked to back on page 2-3 just over a year ago and absolutely nothing was done about it.

If they don't put something into action then will we be here again next year?

Well let's give this one a chance. This thread came from Miles so it's obviously something SI/SEGA want to fix. With the release of FM08 causing an influx of new members, presumably this is something at the forefront that they want to fix.

I'm sure we'll hear from Miles in good time, even if it's to say they've taken suggestions on board and are thinking about it.