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peter-evo
27-11-2008, 19:41
Also, correct spelling, grammar and punctuation is held in high regard over there.
Ah, okay, sorry about that.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 19:41
They've just proven us right. Charming bunch aren't they? Especially the wine-bottle comments towards the OP - disgusting. It's like a club of saddos who read The Sun seriously and spend the rest of their time on porn sites.

peter-evo
27-11-2008, 19:43
Whatever I might think of the place, I'm not sure it's fair to go over there in order to actually try and get certain kinds of responses out of them.
I haven't I posted a perfectly relevant comment and then the next post was something like "What is with all these people with half-a-dozen posts" I prefer it here anyway.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 19:43
I haven't I posted a perfectly relevant comment and then the next post was something like "What is with all these people with half-a-dozen posts" I prefer it here anyway.

You should see the posts aimed towards CaptainPlanet. *shakes head*

Edit: Granted, his approach was a bit more irate (and I can't blame him), the replies towards you were bad enough. It's like secondary school in there, the big boys bullying the new kids.

Double Edit: OK, perhaps not irate, but definitely firmer.

Triple Edit: Also, interesting how they've been spending their time posting worse "drivel" in that thread, than what was posted in it originally over here. Hypocritical, methinks.

fattyg
27-11-2008, 19:47
I wonder how this discussion between the mods is going on.?

Heisenberg
27-11-2008, 19:48
I have to say that even though I'm not the world's most regular poster, I would highly value a social group such as the one being mentioned on the previous page. I tend to stick to GD and the Arsenal thread in GPGT but the reason I don't post much here is the quality of responses from the forum regulars, who often answer my questions before I ask them

I generally feel the atmosphere is better in GD and that I can be confident of a constructive response if I have a problem (I don't have 09 yet so this hasn't really applied recently)

peter-evo
27-11-2008, 19:53
You should see the posts aimed towards CaptainPlanet. *shakes head*

Edit: Granted, his approach was a bit more irate (and I can't blame him), the replies towards you were bad enough. It's like secondary school in there, the big boys bullying the new kids.

Double Edit: OK, perhaps not irate, but definitely firmer.

Triple Edit: Also, interesting how they've been spending their time posting worse "drivel" in that thread, than what was posted in it originally over here. Hypocritical, methinks.
It feels like I'm a celebrity at the beginning at the moment, and captain's post was a lot more straight to the point.

CaptainPlanet
27-11-2008, 20:00
I've given up now, I've dealt with enough trolls and keyboard warriors already in my internet lifetime, I don't have the patience for any more.

My last point will be to the senior mods/devs, that there is definitely an inconsistent approach to moderating, across mods themselves and across forum subsections.

Yes I'm slightly bitter that I got infraction points for (what I thought was) a humourous rick roll in a whinge thread. Whilst other people can say "**** of you ****" with no reprecussion because it's in a different section. But my point is still a valid one, even if the mods are free volunteers there should be a level of consistency and professionalism, and I don't feel that's always apparant.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 20:04
Interesting how they said "think of the treatment as an initiation". They really do think they own the place. That and telling us to stay out of drivel threads - yet I don't see them staying away from that one.

A case for an FMGD Social Group is stronger than ever after that.

bridport_pouncer
27-11-2008, 20:20
Just been over to OTF for a look at some of the threads. Thought I might even contribute to a couple. Forget it!

What is wrong with these people?! Are they having a "let's see who can be the most burly and aggressive" competition? Almost all posts are basically spam! Five-word sentences for the sake of boosting post counts!

Quite frankly, Ter or anyone else, if you think I'm going over there to talk to the decent people from here about something other than FM, you can forget it. My ego just isn't big enough to be worthy of OTF. Seriously, it's like an e-club for 45 year old blokes who still live with their mums and need somewhere to try and make themselves feel bigger than they are.

Pathetic.


That's exactly it! Like I said, it's like a pub coming up to closing time, filled with dodgy lorry driver types who are trying to outdo each other in who can be more "blokey". And there's definitely some sort of pack mentality about the whole thing, like hyenas.


They've just proven us right. Charming bunch aren't they? Especially the wine-bottle comments towards the OP - disgusting. It's like a club of saddos who read The Sun seriously and spend the rest of their time on porn sites.

It's seeing comments like this that make me realise why you get "abused" in OTF. Pure ignorance, in my opinion. It's banter. It's not abuse - abuse is what 'Unrealgod' posted in the girlfriend thread, and that was not welcome. It's banter between members of different forums, in the same way there is banter between Arsenal and Spurs fans, Liverpool and United fans, etc. etc.

Sure - new users etc. always stand out. It's like an initiation ceremony. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I went through the same thing when I started on OTF and now there's no problem there. You can be assured that if you are outspoken, you'll get attention on OTF. But that's how it works, it's a forum.

As for the post count - I've only been here a couple of years, and on OTF for about a year or so. There is far more of interest in there, in my opinion, more variation in topics and more to discuss. I'm not saying everyone in OTF is perfect, far from it, but it's a little community in there like it is in here.

And I'd rather have big headed people being idiots than a forum full of 12 year olds saying "elp me si" etc.

But that's just what I think.

Kain
27-11-2008, 20:32
I really really think you're overreacting tbh (not aimed at anybody in particular). There's a massive difference between the two threads that R3b3cc@ started there and your average thread in OTF. Essentially, the place is the same as here. If you post sensibly in either forum, you don't really have a problem. Quite frankly, what was posted by the OTFers in that thread is truly awful. Very few threads in there descend into that.

The thing is, if you don't post there regularly, its hard to make a judgement on the place as a whole. If anybody took a 10 minute look at the threads here, it wouldn't be much of a leap to suggest 80% of threads in here are nothing more than the thread-started complaining about something in FM, somebody else replies saying "Blah blah blah its all been said before", somebody else saying "stop trying to be a mod".. Its only because we're here regularly that we know it isn't always like that.

fattyg
27-11-2008, 20:37
I don't think its purely ignorance as such. I'm sure there are plenty of good posters in the OTF (you probably included) but all we can go off is our own experiences. At the end of the day there is a fine line between "banter" and abuse. Personally I don't mind a bit of banter but from my own experience there are some posters over there that just take it too far.

All we want is somewhere for a group of us to have discussions which don't have to be related to FM, but also don't run the risk of being ruined by people who don't really care what we're talking about. If we were to start a thread of that nature in OTF I don't see why we have to go through any initiation or something of that nature, if nobody over there is interested in what we have to say then they don't have to post in that thread. However, in all honesty I just can't see that happening.

Neji
27-11-2008, 20:40
The problem with 'banter' though is that this is a forum, you can't sense the tone of posts and unless you know the posters, then different posters will take it in different ways.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 20:41
All we wanted was a place where we, as members of the SI forums, could chat freely and sensibly without the undercurrent of aggression that goes on in OTF. I posted in there yesterday and got nothing but crap thrown back at me - just for being a General Discussion regular. It makes me feel uncomfortable, especially the attitudes shown towards women in the posts that were made today, I certainly won't be going back.

djwilko6
27-11-2008, 20:43
I really really think you're overreacting tbh (not aimed at anybody in particular). There's a massive difference between the two threads that R3b3cc@ started there and your average thread in OTF. Essentially, the place is the same as here. If you post sensibly in either forum, you don't really have a problem. Quite frankly, what was posted by the OTFers in that thread is truly awful. Very few threads in there descend into that.

The thing is, if you don't post there regularly, its hard to make a judgement on the place as a whole. If anybody took a 10 minute look at the threads here, it wouldn't be much of a leap to suggest 80% of threads in here are nothing more than the thread-started complaining about something in FM, somebody else replies saying "Blah blah blah its all been said before", somebody else saying "stop trying to be a mod".. Its only because we're here regularly that we know it isn't always like that.

I'd take those threads over abusive/uncalled for "banter".

If only they held politeness and acceptence as highly as grammer and/or spelling. :D

bridport_pouncer
27-11-2008, 20:43
I really really think you're overreacting tbh (not aimed at anybody in particular). There's a massive difference between the two threads that R3b3cc@ started there and your average thread in OTF. Essentially, the place is the same as here. If you post sensibly in either forum, you don't really have a problem. Quite frankly, what was posted by the OTFers in that thread is truly awful. Very few threads in there descend into that.

The thing is, if you don't post there regularly, its hard to make a judgement on the place as a whole. If anybody took a 10 minute look at the threads here, it wouldn't be much of a leap to suggest 80% of threads in here are nothing more than the thread-started complaining about something in FM, somebody else replies saying "Blah blah blah its all been said before", somebody else saying "stop trying to be a mod".. Its only because we're here regularly that we know it isn't always like that.

Agree with that 100%. Don't judge a book by it's cover etc. ;)

Not sure if it's been put forward before, but why not give GQ and Off-Topic Thread of their own? We have a Football Manager thread after all, and it'd go a small way to help give GQ posters an area to go Off-Topic. But what's to say that wouldn't go the same way?

djwilko6
27-11-2008, 20:45
Agree with that 100%. Don't judge a book by it's cover etc. ;)

Not sure if it's been put forward before, but why not give GQ and Off-Topic Thread of their own? We have a Football Manager thread after all, and it'd go a small way to help give GQ posters an area to go Off-Topic. But what's to say that wouldn't go the same way?

Or, the OTFer's could be more accepting or people who are new to that part or the forum, and then everybody could post there, you'd have more people to have "banter" with aswell. :)

Mike7077
27-11-2008, 20:46
I really really think you're overreacting tbh (not aimed at anybody in particular). There's a massive difference between the two threads that R3b3cc@ started there and your average thread in OTF. Essentially, the place is the same as here. If you post sensibly in either forum, you don't really have a problem. Quite frankly, what was posted by the OTFers in that thread is truly awful. Very few threads in there descend into that.

The thing is, if you don't post there regularly, its hard to make a judgement on the place as a whole. If anybody took a 10 minute look at the threads here, it wouldn't be much of a leap to suggest 80% of threads in here are nothing more than the thread-started complaining about something in FM, somebody else replies saying "Blah blah blah its all been said before", somebody else saying "stop trying to be a mod".. Its only because we're here regularly that we know it isn't always like that.


It's hard to take that seriously from the guy responsible for "Amanda, I'm sorry". :p

In all seriousness, though, there is a difference between a forum where many threads are full of irritating complaining and a forum where many threads contain rudeness and aggression.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 20:46
Agree with that 100%. Don't judge a book by it's cover etc. ;)

Not sure if it's been put forward before, but why not give GQ and Off-Topic Thread of their own? We have a Football Manager thread after all, and it'd go a small way to help give GQ posters an area to go Off-Topic. But what's to say that wouldn't go the same way?

That's what we've been asking for, but they won't do it because it's specifically for questions about the game. So we're trying to get a social group made, but they're having to discuss it as there seems to be opposition to it.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 20:47
I haven't read the entire thread, but has this thread always been about GD vs OTF etc?

Kain
27-11-2008, 20:54
Again, it depends on the nature of the thread. If its essentially pure drivel, such as R3b3cc@'s second thread, then you'll get drivel-like replies. If there's actually something to discuss, you'll mostly get sensible replies. See the following threads that are all started by people whose status is still amateur, all picked from the first page:

Recommend some music? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72972)

George Bush is an idiot (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72954)

Guy selling his house (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72422)

Do you like Marmite? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72700)

The Killers' new album (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72727)

Writing a personal statement (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=42761)

Elf yourself (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=71971)

Best concert ever? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=71895)

Guns N Roses new album (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72691)

Thanks for your help/job interview (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72586)


Two of those threads had already been posted before. Note the lack of abuse for reposting it, something you're almost guaranteed to get here. Note CaptainPlanet started the Marmite one.. Feel free to point out any abuse to any of them in there. In fact, feel free to point out any case of people with higher post counts acting like they're better because of it.

I'm not saying there aren't any bad posters in there, but I really think there's less of them than in your average internet forum.

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 21:00
Again, it depends on the nature of the thread. If its essentially pure drivel, such as R3b3cc@'s second thread, then you'll get drivel-like replies. If there's actually something to discuss, you'll mostly get sensible replies. See the following threads that are all started by people whose status is still amateur, all picked from the first page:

Recommend some music? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72972)

George Bush is an idiot (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72954)

Guy selling his house (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72422)

Do you like Marmite? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72700)

The Killers' new album (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72727)

Writing a personal statement (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=42761)

Elf yourself (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=71971)

Best concert ever? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=71895)

Guns N Roses new album (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72691)

Thanks for your help/job interview (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72586)


Two of those threads had already been posted before. Note the lack of abuse for reposting it, something you're almost guaranteed to get here. Note CaptainPlanet started the Marmite one.. Feel free to point out any abuse to any of them in there. In fact, feel free to point out any case of people with higher post counts acting like they're better because of it.

I'm not saying there aren't any bad posters in there, but I really think there's less of them than in your average internet forum.

All these threads are 'on a topic', we are looking for somewhere to discuss everything that is FM related. If we use any of those threads they will go 'off topic'. Also for 10 threads with no abuse I'm fairly sure we could find 10 to back up our side of the discussion

Kain
27-11-2008, 21:02
Isn't that what this forum is for? Discussions related to FM?

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 21:06
yes, but we don't always want to talk solely about FM, we want a place where as FM regulars we can 'hang out'. Alot of the other sub forums have a oft thread so we were after parity. we were told this would not happen so we are looking at alternatives.

If we go to OFT all the threads have a topic so our discussions would be 'off topic' for the thread.

Neji
27-11-2008, 21:07
The idea of the thread was to discuss anything really, but do it between each other ie the GD regulars. There is a group of posters on here who all get on pretty well. We don't know the OTF and they don't know us, all that turns into is OTF telling us to get back to GD.

Even if we made this thread in OTF, we wouldn't beable to talk amongst us because some of the more, lets say aggressive members would ruin it. It's starting to sound like I'm trying to exclude OTF guys too but if they are sensible then there is no problem.

djwilko6
27-11-2008, 21:09
I've just noticed the message at the top of the OFT forum (yes I've been here years and never noticed it!), its hardly inviting is it?

CaptainPlanet
27-11-2008, 21:09
Yey, more people currently love marmite than hate it.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 21:11
Again, it depends on the nature of the thread. If its essentially pure drivel, such as R3b3cc@'s second thread, then you'll get drivel-like replies. If there's actually something to discuss, you'll mostly get sensible replies. See the following threads that are all started by people whose status is still amateur, all picked from the first page:

Recommend some music? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72972)

George Bush is an idiot (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72954)

Guy selling his house (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72422)

Do you like Marmite? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72700)

The Killers' new album (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72727)

Writing a personal statement (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=42761)

Elf yourself (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=71971)

Best concert ever? (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=71895)

Guns N Roses new album (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72691)

Thanks for your help/job interview (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=72586)


Two of those threads had already been posted before. Note the lack of abuse for reposting it, something you're almost guaranteed to get here. Note CaptainPlanet started the Marmite one.. Feel free to point out any abuse to any of them in there. In fact, feel free to point out any case of people with higher post counts acting like they're better because of it.

I'm not saying there aren't any bad posters in there, but I really think there's less of them than in your average internet forum.

With all due respect, several of us have felt uncomfortable going in there and yesterday (and today) it's been proven that it happens.

As I've said, I posted sensibly when I went in there yesterday afternoon and was still treated badly just because I'd posted in the thread before. Yet the people abusing us for posting "drivel" are themselves bumping the thread up with garbage worse than what was posted in it initially. I don't want to go to a place where this can happen - like CaptainPlanet, I've had my fair share of trolls, idiots and bullies on message boards and shouldn't have to put myself in a position to deal with it further.

I just want to chat with my fellow members in a friendly, relaxed atmosphere.

Edit: Also, the idea was to have something like what the "concerned girlfriend" thread turned into - a single thread where we talked about everything, whether off topic or FM related, like one big long conversation.

SCIAG
27-11-2008, 21:14
The OTF bunch don't think highly of GQ posters either if that's any condolence. :D

Though they think even less of pretty much every mod (Serpico seems to be the only one widely respected).

djwilko6
27-11-2008, 21:14
Edit: Also, the idea was to have something like what the "concerned girlfriend" thread turned into - a single thread where we talked about everything, whether off topic or FM related, like one big long conversation.

Like all the individual topics in OTF, but rolled into one?

bridport_pouncer
27-11-2008, 21:14
I've just noticed the message at the top of the OFT forum (yes I've been here years and never noticed it!), its hardly inviting is it?

But that's the thing... Take it with a pinch of salt - however it's not a gentleman's gathering or anything!

Remember, the fine line between abuse and banter. ;)

Mike7077
27-11-2008, 21:15
I actually think getting into a debate about the merits or otherwise of OTF takes us away from our principle problem. What we need to focus on is how we satisfy the desire for some way for people from GD to discuss the world beyond FM. Clearly several of us are uncomfortable with the idea of attempting this in OTF. So the question is where do we go from here?

djwilko6
27-11-2008, 21:16
But that's the thing... Take it with a pinch of salt - however it's not a gentleman's gathering or anything!

Remember, the fine line between abuse and banter. ;)

Haha I enjoy banter as much as the next person, but sometimes those lines are crossed, both here and in OFT, the difference being tho, that people in OFT get away with it alot more in my opinion.

SCIAG
27-11-2008, 21:17
FMS has a community thread, but that only works because we don't have so many users.

I know CSE have a group of some sort- why don't we try that? Neji, do you have the power or will it take Duffy?

SCIAG
27-11-2008, 21:18
Haha I enjoy banter as much as the next person, but sometimes those lines are crossed, both here and in OFT, the difference being tho, that people in OFT get away with it alot more in my opinion.
They really don't. Look at their infraction counts compared to the rest of the forum- some even have 60 points.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 21:23
But that's the thing... Take it with a pinch of salt - however it's not a gentleman's gathering or anything!

Remember, the fine line between abuse and banter. ;)

Sorry, but it is - or at least feels like it. I don't want to go to place where theres the possibility that I'm going to be asked to "take a photo of myself with a wine bottle up my chuff", to quote one of the posters there, and having several sheep-like members applauding it. If someone said that to my face, I'd probably end up in a police station shortly afterwards...

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 21:25
FMS has a community thread, but that only works because we don't have so many users.

I know CSE have a group of some sort- why don't we try that? Neji, do you have the power or will it take Duffy?

That's where we're at at the moment, but the mods are discussing it and there's a chance it won't happen - even though there's a group for New Kids On The Block with 2 members.

djwilko6
27-11-2008, 21:26
They really don't. Look at their infraction counts compared to the rest of the forum- some even have 60 points.

I'd like to see what would happen if somebody was asked to post a video of someone sticking a wine bottle somewhere it shouldnt. :D (wether it was said in jest or not btw)

My guessing would be a ban of some sorts.

Kain
27-11-2008, 21:26
I admit, if you want a thread where you can essentially just "chat", then it would need an off-topic thread here as you wouldn't be able to have it in OTF (due to it being closed for being "drivel"). However, I really think you're fooling yourself if you think that it would only be the sensible users who ever posted in it.

As for yesterday, it was the thread itself that was the problem, not you guys personally. If you posted in your typical sensible-yet-lighthearted manner in pretty much any other thread, you wouldn't have had any problems. You have no reason to feel uncomfortable posting in OTF. As long as there IS something to discuss, you will hardly ever have a problem. (And if you do, that's what the Report Post button is for)

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 21:27
The idea of somewhere for GD posters to discuss things non-FM without abuse or the fear of abuse is a good idea, There are people here discussing whether OTF is good/bad in terms of attitude towards GD and other posters. The fact that it is been discussed in the first place points to some sort of problem that GD'ers are having in OTF, so i'll agree that somewhere needs to be created, i certainly feel more comfortable posting in here than in there, although i have posted in there a few times without abuse. apart from a few/one person who asked for me to be banned for replying to his abuse, i think he was in shock more than anything.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 21:31
I admit, if you want a thread where you can essentially just "chat", then it would need an off-topic thread here as you wouldn't be able to have it in OTF (due to it being closed for being "drivel"). However, I really think you're fooling yourself if you think that it would only be the sensible users who ever posted in it.

We've moved away from getting a thread (because we were told it won't happen) and trying for a social group, which would be moderated (I think). But there's a chance that we're not going to get one.

Ackter
27-11-2008, 21:31
If you thought that thread was offensive, you should see some of the stuff that's been thrown at me over the years.

And if you want drivel threads - that's generally what the Night threads in OTF are for.

Kain
27-11-2008, 21:33
Well, its a similar point, although I suppose a group would be easier to manage. I do suggest you give OTF another chance as well though, it really isn't as bad as you think.

SCIAG
27-11-2008, 21:35
No, you just have to learn to shrug it off and even expect it.

bridport_pouncer
27-11-2008, 21:37
Suzie MUFC: I'm with you on the wine bottle thing. That's out of order. But all I can say really is what I've said already: OTF isn't all like that, you've just got negative first impressions.

EDIT: And SCAIG is right on that one. If you expect it, after a while it'll go largely.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 21:37
A social group would be good i believe, its there that we could discuss the arton baleci situation www.thebeautifulaim.com

SCIAG
27-11-2008, 21:38
The really bad users (along with some of the better users, admittedly) emmigrated to another forum a while back, though they still occaisionally post there.

CaptainPlanet
27-11-2008, 21:40
it really isn't as bad as you think.

Sorry, but it is. Whilst some threads (like the ones you posted) are innocent, there really are plenty of others that aren't, and the attitudes of some of the posters are evident in those threads and in this one and it's not an attitude I want anything to do with.

As always it is the few that give the majority a bad name, but it doesn't help when people defend those few.


No, you just have to learn to shrug it off and even expect it.

I'm sorry but this is a prime example of behaviour that irks me, and is common of these sort of subsets. It's along with same line of "deal with it" or "oh, he's harmless he is" - Nobody should have to learn to put up with bad behaviour, they certainly shouldn't be expected to do it just to take part on an official forum!

SCIAG
27-11-2008, 21:43
Look, CaptainPlanet, it's better than it was. If you want bad, look at the other website they all post on.

Ackter
27-11-2008, 21:44
Tbh if you get offended easily then OTF is definitly not the place to be - its humour is very dry and very dark, but that's its charm.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 21:45
Sorry, but it is. Whilst some threads (like the ones you posted) are innocent, there really are plenty of others that aren't, and the attitudes of some of the posters are evident in those threads and in this one and it's not an attitude I want anything to do with.

As always it is the few that give the majority a bad name, but it doesn't help when people defend those few.



I'm sorry but this is a prime example of behaviour that irks me, and is common of these sort of subsets. It's along with same line of "deal with it" or "oh, he's harmless he is" - Nobody should have to learn to put up with bad behaviour, they certainly shouldn't be expected to do it just to take part on an official forum!

Agree 100%.

Kain
27-11-2008, 21:46
Would you care to post examples of these? Because I've hardly noticed anything particularly bad with the exception of the two threads that started this discussion. I certainly don't think its any worse than some of the posters here (admittedly not the regular ones). OTF has changed a LOT in the last few months, since the mods really started to clamp down on the abuse, and I think there's a general misconception that abuse is still as rife as it used to be.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 21:48
Sorry, but it is. Whilst some threads (like the ones you posted) are innocent, there really are plenty of others that aren't, and the attitudes of some of the posters are evident in those threads and in this one and it's not an attitude I want anything to do with.

As always it is the few that give the majority a bad name, but it doesn't help when people defend those few.



I'm sorry but this is a prime example of behaviour that irks me, and is common of these sort of subsets. It's along with same line of "deal with it" or "oh, he's harmless he is" - Nobody should have to learn to put up with bad behaviour, they certainly shouldn't be expected to do it just to take part on an official forum!

I agree, there shouldn't be abuse or bad behaviour in the first place. OTF was created to discuss non-FM things, but its now one big clique where it seems you have to be initiated. Thats not what people go there for surely

Ackter
27-11-2008, 21:48
For the record, the majority of abuse thrown my way originated from GD and the bugs forum. Nowadays it's like I'm not even on the map anymore :(

SCIAG
27-11-2008, 21:49
I_G_H- couldn't you say the same for "Go play FIFA manager" "It's your tactics" GQ?

bridport_pouncer
27-11-2008, 21:50
Tbh if you get offended easily then OTF is definitly not the place to be - its humour is very dry and very dark, but that's its charm.

Absolutely right Ackter.

Neji
27-11-2008, 21:52
Tbh if you get offended easily then OTF is definitly not the place to be - its humour is very dry and very dark, but that's its charm.

Exactly, thats why a lot of people don't like it.

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 21:54
Tbh if you get offended easily then OTF is definitly not the place to be - its humour is very dry and very dark, but that's its charm.

I don't get offended easily, I have a very a dark, twisted sense of humour when it comes down to things. It's the personal insults, being told to go back where I came from, being looked down upon as a child (I'm 27) and treated like dirt which I don't like, and then have those people defended by others with the excuse of "Oh, it's just banter".

That's like someone bullying someone else, and then saying "it was just a joke, god you're so sensitive" when clearly it wasn't. The person who's insulted is too sensitive and it's his or her fault, rather than the other person who should be showing a bit more courtesy.

Nobody should have to deal with this and being made to feel it's their fault.

CaptainPlanet
27-11-2008, 21:55
Tbh if you get offended easily then OTF is definitly not the place to be

And this doesn't ring any alarm bells?

SI games have a global audience, from all cultures and ages - no part of their official forums should be somewhere they are likely to get offended.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 21:56
Absolutely right Ackter.

I'm not one to be offended by what one writes on a keyboard, but surely its 'charm' should be the fact that its somewhere to discuss non-FM related subjects? your thoughts are welcome

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 21:57
And this doesn't ring any alarm bells?

SI games have a global audience, from all cultures and ages - no part of their official forums should be somewhere they are likely to get offended.

fully agree with this

Ackter
27-11-2008, 21:58
Exactly, thats why a lot of people don't like it.

In my experience in OTF it's all about how you take things - most of what is said in there (that's deemed "offensive") is entirely based in humour, but if you want to take offense at something it's very easy to do so. It's almost exactly like being at a pub with a bunch of friends.

It doesn't mean that a few genuinely offensive posts don't turn up, but that's true of every single forum here, and everywhere else on the internet. As a whole you need a thick skin on the net, especially on forums.

Why get offended at what someone, who you almost certainly don't know and will probably never meet, says on a forum? There's a massive difference between being genuinely abusive and someone finding a forum post offensive.

Ackter
27-11-2008, 21:59
The above post can be applied to all posters quoting me as well.

bridport_pouncer
27-11-2008, 22:01
But OTF is very popular, lots of people use it day in day out, the regulars and the newer members. They get on fine, as much as I have sympathy for your treatment, which is pretty bad yes, all I can say is that OTF is not like that always. Many newer members are fine.

It's survival of the fittest, you could say. Whether that's right or wrong or good or bad beats me. But I know that atmosphere has driven away many of the less mature posters.

EDIT: I'll keep quiet for now, Ackter's taking the words out of my mouth. Good debate though. :thup:

djwilko6
27-11-2008, 22:03
In my experience in OTF it's all about how you take things - most of what is said in there (that's deemed "offensive") is entirely based in humour, but if you want to take offense at something it's very easy to do so. It's almost exactly like being at a pub with a bunch of friends.

It doesn't mean that a few genuinely offensive posts don't turn up, but that's true of every single forum here, and everywhere else on the internet. As a whole you need a thick skin on the net, especially on forums.

Why get offended at what someone, who you almost certainly don't know and will probably never meet, says on a forum? There's a massive difference between being genuinely abusive and someone finding a forum post offensive.

It's not what you say, its how you say it (the collective you, not you personally).

I've always quite liked the way you posted about a year ago Ackter, sometimes you were a bit too blunt, which is why I think a few didnt like you.

VonBlade
27-11-2008, 22:03
The above post can be applied to all posters quoting me as well.

Gah! I find that bloody offensive!! And some other righteous indignation!!! Another complaint with an exclamation mark!!!! I demand an apology!!!!!

:)

CaptainPlanet
27-11-2008, 22:04
Why get offended at what someone, who you almost certainly don't know and will probably never meet, says on a forum? There's a massive difference between being genuinely abusive and someone finding a forum post offensive.

Sorry, but "It's the internet" is not a valid excuse.

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 22:05
tbh Ackter I see what you are saying, but imo it's only easy to take offense if it offensive or potentially offensive. I don't need keyboard warriors. I get little spare time and want to spend it talking to people who wont abuse me. I don't see why I should even risk being abused.

Nobody is going to convince me to give OFT a 2nd chance as OFT didn't even give us a 1st chance yesterday

Animial86
27-11-2008, 22:08
I know this is off topic guys but i really want to play on FM and i carnt ive downloaded Fm but it isnt lauching it says...


THE APPLICATION FAILED TO INITIALIZE PROPERLY (0xc0150002)

Any idease if not where can i get info from??

Ackter
27-11-2008, 22:08
It's not what you say, its how you say it (the collective you, not you personally).

I've always quite liked the way you posted about a year ago Ackter, sometimes you were a bit too blunt, which is why I think a few didnt like you.

I don't believe in ****ing about with words - I'll say exactly what I think and softening the "blow" is not something that ever crosses my mind when typing. The problem is that "how you say it" is incredibly hard to judge when it's just text on a screen. OTF, while a bit harsh around the edges, is still in far better shape than the majority of other forums I've seen over the years (with the exception of small private forums) and a hell of a lot more fun when you have 5 minutes, or even 5 hours, to waste.

Removing the dark humour would remove that enjoyment. There's very few places on the web that can make you laugh as much as this place.

And this is coming from what OTF considered to be the posterboy of GQ.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 22:09
so when do we know about a possible social group for GD'ers

Ackter
27-11-2008, 22:09
tbh Ackter I see what you are saying, but imo it's only easy to take offense if it offensive or potentially offensive. I don't need keyboard warriors. I get little spare time and want to spend it talking to people who wont abuse me. I don't see why I should even risk being abused.

Nobody is going to convince me to give OFT a 2nd chance as OFT didn't even give us a 1st chance yesterday

If you remove everything that's potentially offensive you end up with situations like a council in mid-England that banned Winnie the Pooh because Piglet might be potentially offensive to their Muslim community (true story).

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 22:10
I_G_H- couldn't you say the same for "Go play FIFA manager" "It's your tactics" GQ?

I personally would never say that to someone in GQ as it's wrong - people are complaining because they have a problem, and there's always a solution to it, but it should always be explained in a polite and helpful manner. Not "It's your tactics, you noob". I just don't like the attitude associated with it, it smacks of "I'm better than you, and you're rubbish, so it's your fault".

The only time I've ever said that was last night to CaptainPlanet when he was joking about the modding process. And that's it.


Why get offended at what someone, who you almost certainly don't know and will probably never meet, says on a forum? There's a massive difference between being genuinely abusive and someone finding a forum post offensive.

Because it's usually a case of someone hiding behind their monitor, thinking they can get away with anything and putting you down to a point where you feel you can't fight back because they keep verbally punching away at you, and you're then getting ganged up on by his mates, applauding his actions.

"Why get offended"? Why should they be insulting us in the first place? They don't know us either.

Neji
27-11-2008, 22:10
In my experience in OTF it's all about how you take things

Yeah I agree. This is what I said earlier. It's a forum, you don't know what tone is being implied unless you know the other posters.

I'm posting in there right now, and it isn't as bad as I thought in fairness but it still isn't a nice place to be. Theres a couple of posts which are offensive, I don't get offended easily and I don't think I've ever been offended on the internet. Life is too short but even if I dont take offense to what is being said I still don't want to be posting around people who post absolute trash/blunt/ignorant comments.

CaptainPlanet
27-11-2008, 22:13
I know this is off topic guys but i really want to play on FM and i carnt ive downloaded Fm but it isnt lauching it says...


THE APPLICATION FAILED TO INITIALIZE PROPERLY (0xc0150002)

Any idease if not where can i get info from??

Check the tech thread here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=63556

And if still unsuccessful, post a new thread on the bugs forum.

GL :thup:

Kain
27-11-2008, 22:14
I don't get offended easily, I have a very a dark, twisted sense of humour when it comes down to things. It's the personal insults, being told to go back where I came from, being looked down upon as a child (I'm 27) and treated like dirt which I don't like, and then have those people defended by others with the excuse of "Oh, it's just banter".

That's like someone bullying someone else, and then saying "it was just a joke, god you're so sensitive" when clearly it wasn't. The person who's insulted is too sensitive and it's his or her fault, rather than the other person who should be showing a bit more courtesy.

Nobody should have to deal with this and being made to feel it's their fault.

I'm still waiting for these examples of personal abuse, which as SCIAG pointed out, you're just as likely to get here as in OTF. I've checked both threads, and the only thing I can see aimed at you is Ruckus saying "take it back", which is quite clearly a joke.

How you can find that offensive, and posts from before the thread was moved such as Doopyhole's "get ya rat out rebecca", eXistenZ's "Sure, i treat woman with respect also, i would be more surprised if you didn't, because then you really had some pshysological problem. However because you fail to notice, you belong in the category "stupid *******", i'm afraid." and "How about you be a good girlfriend and stop posting on these forums until all the housework is done, dinner is ready and all the clothes are ironed." don't even raise an eyebrow is beyond me.

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 22:14
Neji, is there any update on our social group idea?

ahmufcwafc
27-11-2008, 22:18
Neji, is there any update on our social group idea?

Hey what do you mean by our? ;) Clearly I deserve some credit for bringing the idea up in the first place. :D

Neji
27-11-2008, 22:18
Neji, is there any update on our social group idea?

I'm waiting to the response from other mods. I'll give an update tomorrow.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 22:19
Neji, is there any update on our social group idea?

Something i'm interested, and if it was "your" idea then congrats

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 22:22
wow i need to learn to post faster, they go out of date pretty quickly

Suzie MUFC
27-11-2008, 22:25
How you can find that offensive, and posts from before the thread was moved such as Doopyhole's "get ya rat out rebecca", eXistenZ's "Sure, i treat woman with respect also, i would be more surprised if you didn't, because then you really had some pshysological problem. However because you fail to notice, you belong in the category "stupid *******", i'm afraid." and "How about you be a good girlfriend and stop posting on these forums until all the housework is done, dinner is ready and all the clothes are ironed." don't even raise an eyebrow is beyond me.

I never even saw those posts - who even said I agreed with them? Don't go painting me with the same brush as the idiots who posted that rubbish, OK?

Edit: Also, your post is pretty much an indication of what the real problem was, that people lumped us all together as the same and not reading our individual posts and sorting out the good from the bad. You've paired me up with that rubbish without a thought that I didn't see it and certainly wouldn't agree with it. No wonder I was treated like a moron.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 22:31
I never even saw those posts - who even said I agreed with them? Don't go painting me with the same brush as the idiots who posted that rubbish, OK?

At the end of the day, in any society, you have a few bad eggs spoiling it for the rest of us. Of course sometimes it's subjective. People are making points back and forth, OTF is good, OTF is bad, GD is good, GD is bad, at the end of the day, isn't it down to the Gd'ers having their own little social group, Even if thats the case and they get it, how it affects the OTF lurkers im not sure, But if it is a group for GD'ers, how is it going to be regulated etc?

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 22:36
thanks Neji.

Unfortunately IGH I cannot take the credit for the idea.

I want to turn the tables on the OFT guys who have joined us for the evening, if I may.

Just wondering how you would feel if you come into GQ yesterday and had been treated the way we were in OFT, when in all honesty the only reason we were there was because it was the only comprimise we could come to with Ter that would allow us to keep the thread open. Please bear in mind when answering this that yesterday was the 3rd time in my life I had been in OFT and have still yet to post in there due to the general attitudes of some users.

I would also like to point out that I pm'd Ter to ask for reinstatement of the thread in OFT, so I was more than willing to give it a chance. That lasted less than 10 minutes.

I suspect like most of us you would come out thinking 'I'm not going back in there any time soon. How do we get a OFT thread in GQ'.

Thats what pretty much all of us did.

Kain
27-11-2008, 22:36
I never even saw those posts - who even said I agreed with them? Don't go painting me with the same brush as the idiots who posted that rubbish, OK?

Edit: Also, your post is pretty much an indication of what the real problem was, that people lumped us all together as the same and not reading our individual posts and sorting out the good from the bad. You've paired me up with that rubbish without a thought that I didn't see it and certainly wouldn't agree with it. No wonder I was treated like a moron.

The point was that there were more offensive comments from GQers than there were in OTF.

I think you're also being rather hypocritical, seeing as you're talking about OTF as being an unfriendly place where you get unwarranted abuse, when 99% of the users do no such thing. My point all along is that the regulars here in GQ's perception of what OTF is like is just as wrong as OTF's perception of GQ itself. I'm not sure how many more ways I can point this out.

Kain
27-11-2008, 22:38
Oh, and for what its worth, I'd estimate around 4,000 or so of my posts have been made here in GQ, with 7,000 or so in OTF. I've been around enough in both forums to know what they're like.

Neji
27-11-2008, 22:41
Kain, I don't think anyone is saying all OTF posters are rude/ignorant but there are many users who are. Like I said, I'm in there know and it honestly isn't as bad as I thought it was but even though I beleive that, there are still alot of idiotic posts in there.

TBH, I think that this debate will never reach a middle ground unless users go out of their way to change their opinions. You know what first impressions are like :D

BBB
27-11-2008, 22:41
And this doesn't ring any alarm bells?

SI games have a global audience, from all cultures and ages - no part of their official forums should be somewhere they are likely to get offended.

www.mylittlepony.com/forum

is more your place to post imo

Neji
27-11-2008, 22:42
Stop trolling BBB.

BBB
27-11-2008, 22:43
The idea is of the off-topic thread/social group is to create a community sense for those who use GD. When you goto OTF you get a bunch of internet warriors and that's not something I'm going to move over to, the concerned girlfriend thread was an example of how GD users are treated in OTF.

what :D

what utter crap, it was treated with the criticism it got because it was a dire dire thread.

BBB
27-11-2008, 22:43
Stop trolling BBB.

offering an opinion is trolling now?

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 22:43
www.mylittlepony.com/forum

is more your place to post imo

Point proved!

Neji
27-11-2008, 22:44
No but posting to wind people up is.

Kain
27-11-2008, 22:46
Kain, I don't think anyone is saying all OTF posters are rude/ignorant but there are many users who are. Like I said, I'm in there know and it honestly isn't as bad as I thought it was but even though I beleive that, there are still alot of idiotic posts in there.

TBH, I think that this debate will never reach a middle ground unless users go out of their way to change their opinions. You know what first impressions are like :D

Agreed, I can't see there ever being an end to the debate either. I just feel like I'm more of an OTFer than a GQer and feel like its necessary to defend it once in a while.

On the plus side, its nice to have a serious lengthy discussion once in a while, the good threads here get ignored far too often.

BBB
27-11-2008, 22:46
fairy muff

Neji
27-11-2008, 22:49
I'll assume you just meant to write 'fair enough' :D


the good threads here get ignored far too often.Indeed they do :)

SCIAG
27-11-2008, 22:50
Am I being classed as a "OTF poster who joined us for the day"? I post more in here than there!

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 22:53
Am I being classed as a "OTF poster who joined us for the day"? I post more in here than there!

No, I was more thinking of Ackter as we don't see him round GQ much any more! Also by his own admission Kain spends more time OTFing than GQing.

Kain
27-11-2008, 22:54
I think of you as being an OTFer more, I'm sure I've seen more of your posts in there than here.

Edit: Ackter used to post loads in here. Back in the day when him and Dave C used to start threads where the opening post was 6+ paragraphs...

Mike7077
27-11-2008, 22:56
I spend almost all my time in GD but I don't like being pre-judged in another forum because of that. I suppose it's inevitable that you'll get the label of the place you most often frequent. Still, I'd rather be judged on the posts I make instead of the place I make them.

Ter
27-11-2008, 23:02
I spend almost all my time in GD but I don't like being pre-judged in another forum because of that. I suppose it's inevitable that you'll get the lable of the place you most often frequent. Still, I'd rather be judged on the posts I make instead of the place I make them.

You'll find that most people on the forums started off posting in the General Discussions area and eventually start using some of the other sections. The thread that got moved there didn't give the best impression of people in this section as it was just absolute drivel in the end.

If people who post mainly in this section go to OTF and post normally and join in the discussion then there will be no problems whatsoever. If people go over there and post like an idiot then they will get treated like one. Not that it's acceptable but that's what happens.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 23:04
wow. untill tonight i never realised that an OTF/GD divide even existed. Forum politics, lovely.

djwilko6
27-11-2008, 23:05
I think of you as being an OTFer more, I'm sure I've seen more of your posts in there than here.

Edit: Ackter used to post loads in here. Back in the day when him and Dave C used to start threads where the opening post was 6+ paragraphs...

I miss those kinds of threads. :(

Kain
27-11-2008, 23:06
Just wondering how you would feel if you come into GQ yesterday and had been treated the way we were in OFT, when in all honesty the only reason we were there was because it was the only comprimise we could come to with Ter that would allow us to keep the thread open. Please bear in mind when answering this that yesterday was the 3rd time in my life I had been in OFT and have still yet to post in there due to the general attitudes of some users.

I would also like to point out that I pm'd Ter to ask for reinstatement of the thread in OFT, so I was more than willing to give it a chance. That lasted less than 10 minutes.

I suspect like most of us you would come out thinking 'I'm not going back in there any time soon. How do we get a OFT thread in GQ'.

Thats what pretty much all of us did.

Also, don't get me wrong, I do agree with you. The majority of what was posted once the thread was moved wasn't exactly a positive impression for anybody, and while I'm defending the majority of OTF, I'm not going to defend that. However, it really was because of the topic of the thread itself and partially because it started in GQ, rather than because the posters themselves were from here.

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 23:09
Has the GD/OTF debate ran its course? are we not now just repating whats gone before?

Neji
27-11-2008, 23:11
The thread that got moved there didn't give the best impression of people in this section as it was just absolute drivel in the end.

To be fair though, if thats what gave them a bad impression - they are hypocrites. Take this thread for example....

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=73056

IMO, it's no better than what was being discussed in the moved thread. I think I could quite like this thread though having said that :D

Kain
27-11-2008, 23:12
I'm trying to boost my post count so my opinion becomes more important. ;)

I think Ter's second paragraph pretty much sums up my stance on it anyway. Hope people do give it another chance without feeling uncomfortable.

Celtic_1967
27-11-2008, 23:14
You'll find that most people on the forums started off posting in the General Discussions area and eventually start using some of the other sections. The thread that got moved there didn't give the best impression of people in this section as it was just absolute drivel in the end.

If people who post mainly in this section go to OTF and post normally and join in the discussion then there will be no problems whatsoever. If people go over there and post like an idiot then they will get treated like one. Not that it's acceptable but that's what happens.

To be fair Ter that thread ended up the way it was as a natuarl progression. It may have been 'drivel' but even you must admit that it made a nice change of pace from all the usual post game release shennanigans we always get. I understand why you closed it and am grateful, despite the end result, that you moved it for us. (Although I suspect that was because you didn't want it dirtying the HoF.)

However the thread got treated the way it did in OTF because very few people over there wanted to read the whole thing. They read the OP and assumed we were idiots. However we were just having a laugh. So to say we will have no problems if we post normally simply doesn't add up for me. We felt we had, and we certainly were not any worse than some of the 'drivel' OTF creates however we were basically chased away. Also as I mentioned earlier all the OTF threads have a topic so to use one of those to have the 'banter/drivel' (whatever you want to call it) would drag that thread off topic too.

I hope you can see I am not being difficult. (And it's not because you like blue :D )

Insert_Goal_Here
27-11-2008, 23:36
I bid you all goodnight

Ackter
27-11-2008, 23:50
I miss those kinds of threads. :(

The ignoring of threads like those is the main reason I no longer post frequently in here. The days of those discussions, with few recent exceptions, are long gone - and even when one of those discussions does make its way back, it's soon drowned off the main forum and it becomes a fight just to keep the discussions going.

I do most of my discussing in private via MSN/private chats/in person etc these days and know there'd be little point in actually putting these thoughts down in public.

I have very limited personal time these days and I generally have more enjoyable ways of spending it than having to fight to keep a thread in view. Having a job has also taken away the time I used to play FM in - I don't think I could offer much in the way of help with FM09 as I've barely played it so you'll rarely see me in threads asking for help either.


No, I was more thinking of Ackter as we don't see him round GQ much any more! Also by his own admission Kain spends more time OTFing than GQing.

I still lurk here, and in the FML forums too, but for the above reasons I keep my visible presence to a minimum.

Heisenberg
28-11-2008, 00:21
It seems that regardless of what should be the case on the forums, there is a definite divide between GD and OTF. Though in an ideal situation the GD users would feel happy to migrate to OTF for these kinds of conversations the fact remains that there is still enough of an "us and them" mentality on both sides that there are a number of GD users who aren't happy doing that, and as far as I can see a number of OTF users who'd be less than helpful if they did

The fact that you can generalise forum users this easily highlights the problem. There will always be people on both sides willing to argue against a migration and people willing to cause trouble, so why not simply do as suggested and give GD a social group of it's own, so that the problem isn't there? Though I personally have no fears of posting in OTF I'd rather post in a GD environment, because I'm used to the regulars and though I have no problem with "very dry and dark" humour I'd prefer an alternative where I don't constantly have to have my wits about me in a conversation. I get enough of that in uni

I apologise if my sentence structure is a bit dodgy, I'm half asleep


Edit: I assume the separate GD forum created by Jez is open for all to join?

djwilko6
28-11-2008, 00:23
I for one would enjoy to see a return of those threads by both you and DaveC, but as I know myself, real life sometimes leaves no time for such things.

I will say tho that some people might feel a similar thing about posting in OFT, having to fight to get there points/views accepted without mocking or redicule.

I may well make the effort over this weekend to have a look over there, it all depends on how well the kids have behaved during the day as to my mood tho!

fattyg
28-11-2008, 00:45
Heisenberg: yeh i presume so mate, i dunno how many people will be on it tho

Suzie MUFC
28-11-2008, 01:42
From the FAQ:


Can I create my own social group?

As a registered member, you can create your own social group (providing the administrator allows this). Go to the groups page and click 'Create A New Group'. Complete the title and description for your group then select the type. There are three types of groups:

Public - open to everyone. There is no restriction on who can join or who can post messages to it
Invite Only - require an invitation to be sent to join them. Invitations can only be sent by the group creator or forum moderators and administrators. Invitations are sent by clicking 'Pending & Invited Members' at the bottom of the page for that individual group
Moderated - open to everyone to join but messages need to be moderated before they will appear. They are moderated by the group creator and the site moderators and administrators


Check out the invite option - that's what we'd use. If a member posts sensibly in GD, and has a good reputation, then they could be invited to our group.

I was checking out the CSE group (oddly enough, all the other groups were deleted this evening) and they seem to have the impression that we're going to be letting every "omgz where iz teh patch?!?!" type member into the group. We've never intended this to be the case, and if that's why everyone was against us having one, then you've underestimated us.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 01:46
You've really got the bit between your teeth about this, haven't you?

MacG
28-11-2008, 03:50
When did everyone become so sensitive? It's the internet, don't take everything so personal and you'll be fine.


On a side note, racists shouldn't be allowed to post and pointing out someone is being offensive shouldn't get you yellow carded.

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 08:22
Would you care to post examples of these? Because I've hardly noticed anything particularly bad with the exception of the two threads that started this discussion. I certainly don't think its any worse than some of the posters here (admittedly not the regular ones). OTF has changed a LOT in the last few months, since the mods really started to clamp down on the abuse, and I think there's a general misconception that abuse is still as rife as it used to be.

I think Kain's got a point here. As Ter has pointed out, we have discussed OTF, and I think we've proven that we're stamping out on abuse and/or bullying, which simply aren't tolerated. Often, however, we rely on users using the Report function. That doesn't mean we'll always agree with you that something is an infraction-worthy offence, but it does mean that the offending post is drawn to our attention for our consideration.

Now, if GQ members want a place to discuss FM, that should clearly be here in GQ. As someone said earlier, the problem with a community forum thing, is that questions (and their inevitable answers) will be asked in there, and not in here. With the search function, it means vital answers can be missed. Let's keep it all in one place.

If you want a place to "hang out" then I'd suggest OTF. No, really. I don't mean create one topic called "GQ/GD hang-out thread", but feel free to post in each other's topics. If you want to start a topic in OTF - go ahead. They have plenty of drivel there, so I don't think any of them are in a position to complain.

In terms of the cries of "but it's not friendly over there", look at my posts about 15 pages ago in this thread - I agreed with that. But I think it's different now. Some of the more caustic members have been removed, and we're clamping down on abuse of members.

I implore you - go post in OTF, you shouldn't feel that you can't post in any forums. If you are abused, report the post, and we'll deal with it as appropriate. I appreciate this is unlikely to absolve all your concerns, but I'd urge you not to give up on OTF - we have an Off Topic Forum for just this very reason: so members from one forum can talk other things than FM, Tactics, Editors, etc. You should feel free to post there and we'll do what we can to ensure that you're not abused.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 08:30
I notice that a lot of people in OTF who have high post counts also have quite a few infractions. I think that says two things. Firstly, it says something about the way they post. Secondly, it shows that the moderators are trying to do something about it. I'll take a look in there some more today and see if I can comfortably get involved, but after seeing someone with considerably more posts than me saying "what's with all these people with half a dozen posts?", I wonder just how welcome I'll be.

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 08:34
I notice that a lot of people in OTF who have high post counts also have quite a few infractions. I think that says two things. Firstly, it says something about the way they post. Secondly, it shows that the moderators are trying to do something about it. I'll take a look in there some more today and see if I can comfortably get involved, but after seeing someone with considerably more posts than me saying "what's with all these people with half a dozen posts?", I wonder just how welcome I'll be.

You see, that's the sort of comment that's very difficult to deal with. It's condescending, but it's not abuse, so we can't really infract it. There are definitely some users who are like that, and tbh there's not a great deal we can do about that. However, if they step over the line into abuse, they'll be dealt with accordingly. I'm glad you've noticed that we're dealing with some issues. :thup:

In terms of being made welcome - the overwhelming majority are decent posters, so don't let the minority spoil it for you, and feel free to report any abuse. :thup:

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 08:36
You say you can't do anything about it, but if you can. Why not post a sticky or a message somewhere on the page explaining that rudeness and condescension will not be tolerated?

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 08:38
You say you can't do anything about it, but if you can. Why not post a sticky or a message somewhere on the page explaining that rudeness and condescension will not be tolerated?

Not a bad idea in fairness - can't remember when the last time one was posted, aside from that one about bullying. I'll raise it as a suggestion, but don't be offended if they don't do it (there may be a valid reason for not posting an announcement about it).

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 08:40
I suspect some of the mods (not yourself) will sympathise with the nature of some regular OTF posters, to be honest. I think, while they may not say it in here, that some of them (naming no names) believe that condescension is a rightful part of that forum. So I won't expect anything. But I also won't give up on the place.

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 08:51
I suspect some of the mods (not yourself) will sympathise with the nature of some regular OTF posters, to be honest. I think, while they may not say it in here, that some of them (naming no names) believe that condescension is a rightful part of that forum. So I won't expect anything. But I also won't give up on the place.

Weeeeell, there is an element of that, that even I agree with. I think that if you're having a debate about something and you're disagreeing with someone, I don't think a user should expect everyone to be 100% nice - and this is true of nearly all forums, and you may need thick skin if you're going to engage in a debate (that's true of GD as well - look at the debates Von Blade and I have had, I'd say we're both thick skinned, but we both kept it non-abusive, though clearly disagreeing completely with each other). However, if someone calls someone else a "****" or whatever that's a different story.

I don't like it when someone posts a new thread and the first post is "jesus wept" or whatever. They've added nothing to any potential thread and just set a tone for other sheep tomorrow. We can't detract post counts, but we can delete posts, and I'm seriously tempted to start deleting those sorts of posts if I catch them in time (not much point deleting it after the tone's already been sent) and PM'ing whoever posted it, advising them it was deleted as it contributed nothing to the forum.


Caveat: These are simply my musings on the matter and no action will necessarily be taken as a result of these musings.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 08:55
I'm sure you can tell by now that I have no problem with debate and am thick-skinned enough to handle it. I was referring more to the deliberate looking down on people based on post counts and how new they are.

CaptainPlanet
28-11-2008, 09:01
They have plenty of drivel there, so I don't think any of them are in a position to complain.

They seem to think otherwise, after saying "it's a no drivel tolerance" and the way they jumped on the "drivel" that was in the concerned girlfriend thread (despite then posting drivel afterwards)

I agree that the OTF should be the place for the thread that we want, and you can hardly be suprised by our hesitance given the actions of the last few days. For gods sake, I've been trolled in this thread by an OTFer.

Genuinely, what do you think are the chances of us creating a "general chat" thread to have a laugh and get to know each other, without several OFT regulars jumping in and ruining it?

There are plenty of ways they can disturb a thread without collecting an infraction for it, and even if they do get an infraction, is it really going to stop them doing it? One guy in the concerned girlfriend thread said "another infraction to add to my collection :D" what a brilliant attitude to have.

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 09:08
They seem to think otherwise, after saying "it's a no drivel tolerance" and the way they jumped on the "drivel" that was in the concerned girlfriend thread (despite then posting drivel afterwards)

I agree that the OTF should be the place for the thread that we want, and you can hardly be suprised by our hesitance given the actions of the last few days. For gods sake, I've been trolled in this thread by an OTFer.

Genuinely, what do you think are the chances of us creating a "general chat" thread to have a laugh and get to know each other, without several OFT regulars jumping in and ruining it?

There are plenty of ways they can disturb a thread without collecting an infraction for it, and even if they do get an infraction, is it really going to stop them doing it? One guy in the concerned girlfriend thread said "another infraction to add to my collection :D" what a brilliant attitude to have.

I totally understand your POV - as I said, it's one I held not long ago at all. What I would like to get rid of, however, is the OTF/GD divide. These are different forums on the same website and there shouldn't be a divide. Of course there is something of a divide, but it's not major, and I do think we can integrate the two forums more.

When OTF'ers talk about GD in a negative context, I suspect that they're mostly referring to the newbies who sign up and ask stupid questions with their first posts ("when's the next patch coming out", "why can't I holiday", etc), and I think we all agree with OTF on that to a certain degree. Those posters do detract from the forum, and I've seen posts agreeing with that from most of the people in this thread!

I've dealt with the trolling issue and we will continue to deal with issues that a) we pick up on and b) are reported. We don't want to ban users, but we do have that as a last resort if the infractions don't work.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 09:13
Just out of interest, I noticed a poster in OTF saying that hardly any of them actually play FM. What brought them to the forums in the first place if not FM?

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 09:16
The idea of a social group really appeals to me, the only problem is that GD is considered a boys club (sorry Suzie :p ) by many members and this will only emphasise that perception. Everyone here who knows me, knows that I prefer certain members, but I don't think it would be right to exclude people because of post count/attitutde, members like Wakers or PhillyFlyer really annoy me at times, but I don't think they wouldn't add anything to an Off Topic Social Group.

I'm concerned that we may be asking for a Royston Vasey esque social group, a local group for local peopl :D I'm joking, but the point is serious.

As for OTF, i've been one of it's critics, but I don't think we should tar every thread or member with the same brush. I've taken part in quite a few discussions in there and it really is a matter of sticking to things you know about or you'll get eaten alive. I love the film thread, but I know my stuff and am into foreign and Indie cinema so I can hold my own, but there are threads I know nothing about and if I tried to add my 2p worth i'd get flamed for it.

In saying that, sticking to things you know isn't really the way an open and cosntructive forum should work. Yeah, it's annoying having someone pontificate on subjects they don't understand, but sometimes the reaction is uncalled for. I don't know anything about cars, but my opinion on them is as vaild as most peoples, unfortunately if I tried to talk about it in OTF i'd be greeted with a "You're wrong" reply.

I don't think OTF is as bad as some people make out, but I think that people are put off it because, in much the same way as GD, certain members opinions are considered more relevant or important than others. TBH GD and OTF are very similar, the only difference I see is that GD's more respected members aren't quite as rude as OTF's.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 09:25
To some degree, this is all going round in circles now. Personally, I've been convinced that it's worth giving OTF another try. I'll see how that works out. As for the social group thing, I'm still interested in the idea. However, I'm starting to get the feeling it's not going to happen.

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 09:27
Well I have to say I'm disappointed. I really wanted our own social group, because I feel excluded in OTF. I spent a bit of time in there last night, just reading, and even some of the threads that were 'sensible' had elements of 'abuse' in. I for one do not want anything to do with OTF and the few bad apples in there, however I feel like I'm going to be forced to put up with it so I can chat with my GQ friends.

I think it is grossly unfair and potentially may drive me away from the boards all together. Which might make no difference to anyone else, but I would be disappointed if it came to that, based on feeling like I had no other option.

Based on GillsMan's replys I am not expecting good news from Neji later

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 09:29
I don't think it will happen, and the "concerned girlfriend" thread is the reason why. In less than a day it reached 8 pages long and was out of control, users such as Mike and myself stuck to that thread for quite a while and ignored GD. I hope the mods give it a go, but I understand why they wouldn't because I think it would turn into another forum that needed their attention and I can honestly see it being as popular as GD, which would be more hastle for them than it's worth.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 09:31
I've just seena thread in OTF where one user describes somebody who signed up this September as "the only person who signed up since September 2008 that OTFers actually like". It was later edited to "tolerate". But that says it all. Don't expect to be tolerate if you've signed up recently, no matter how sensible you might be.

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 09:33
What's stopping someone setting up a blog or forum of their own and inviting everyone they want to come along? Our post count wouldn't increase, but that's not why we want it, you could set your own moderator and have them decide on who is welcome and who is not.

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 09:33
Nomis, I think we are now proposing an Invite only option, thus we actually wouldn't need that much moderation.

CaptainPlanet
28-11-2008, 09:35
I have to admit I feel a bit bad that for the last few days I haven't been helping as many people on the GD forum as I usually do, partly because of work, partly from playing games but mostly because I've spent more time refreshing this thread :p

Personally, I'm not overly comfortable with an invite only option - it seems a bit schoolyard clique-y and we have to judge who is a sensible enough poster to join us, thus we'd in theory be judging new posters too.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 09:35
What's stopping someone setting up a blog or forum of their own and inviting everyone they want to come along? Our post count wouldn't increase, but that's not why we want it, you could set your own moderator and have them decide on who is welcome and who is not.


What's stopping me is that I wouldn't know how to do that! :D


(I know this isn't the thread for this really, but what the hell. I've finally managed to get a game going on FM09! Couldn't be happier! Just wanted to share that with certain people. :D)

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 09:40
But who decided who is welcome and who is not?

I wouldn't know either, but there's bound to be someon who knows how to :confused:

Damn you Mike, i'm still loading 09 every now and then, but giving up because I just can't be arsed.

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 09:41
What's stopping someone setting up a blog or forum of their own and inviting everyone they want to come along? Our post count wouldn't increase, but that's not why we want it, you could set your own moderator and have them decide on who is welcome and who is not.

www.gd2.com? Wow, perhaps they could have wars with a certain spin-off OTF forum as well. ;)

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 09:44
Something that FM08 seemed to suggest to me, and that FM09 has confirmed, is that I will only get a game going these days if I choose a team I feel some sort of connection with. Gone are the days when I can choose a team for no obvious reason and then enjoy myself.

I will now stop talking about FM in this thread.

CaptainPlanet
28-11-2008, 09:44
On the FM09 subject, I'm sure we could arrange a fun Network game between some of us at some point :D

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 09:47
Not me CaptainPlanet, I can type and click, that's about it. Network games, gdr.com (thanks Gillsman), etc mean nothing to me, I didn't even patch an FM game until 08 :D

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 09:48
On the FM09 subject, I'm sure we could arrange a fun Network game between some of us at some point :D

Now that is a good idea. :thup:

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 09:49
On the FM09 subject, I'm sure we could arrange a fun Network game between some of us at some point :D

I actually thought this last night. Would be quite interesting.

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 09:50
who has the best computer, and could host?

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 09:53
You guys around here are the only ones I'd consider a network game with, to be honest.

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 09:55
we could start our own clan, start a thread in the FMO section to discuss the clan, and bingo we get our place for discussions!!!! :D

(GillsMan, you are not allowed to point out that the FMO should be 'on topic'.) ;)

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 10:15
I just had an idea. Totally unrelated to anything we've been discussing, but this seems like the place. I just thought it might be a good idea to put instructions on how to find the Data Editor at the top of the forum.

Ter
28-11-2008, 10:37
Keep it on topic in here guys (I've deleted some posts incase you are wondering what I'm on about)

CaptainPlanet
28-11-2008, 10:58
Could use an official response in the training schedule thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=62706

It's ugly in there.

Bigwig
28-11-2008, 11:54
I’m not quite sure why OTF always gets pinpointed at being an unwelcome place as the unwritten rules are pretty much the same as in the other forums.

If you go straight into OTF without a feel for the place and start posting threads about random rubbish then of course you’re likely to get flamed because it’s not the done thing. You might think that’s being hostile or unwelcome but it’s no different to the other forums.

If someone bought the game and heard there’s an upcoming patch so registers and posts in GQ asking when this patch will be out they’ll likely be subjected to abuse before the thread gets closed and they haven’t a clue what they did wrong.

Similarly if someone likes to play in the lower leagues and sees the LLM forum then they might naturally think they can start posting there about their experiences and I doubt they’d receive a warm welcome either.

If someone thinks there’s a bug so have a rant in the bugs forum they’ll more than likely be told off for not going through the proper channels and similarly if someone wants a good tactic to play with Hull City so goes into T&TF asking for a good tactic to keep hull safe then they’ll probably get abuse.

OTF is no different that if you want to post there you get to know what it’s like first. Someone mentioned it being like a saloon but you wouldn’t burst into a saloon waving and shouting to get attention when you would be better accepted to just ease yourself in and get a feel for the place.

On a side note while OTF is classed as somewhere people form GQ might not want to go you may want to ask yourself why GQ isn’t somewhere OTF users want to go. It’s a two way street and can’t all be blamed at one userbase.

Glenn Wakeford
28-11-2008, 12:01
If you go straight into OTF without a feel for the place and start posting threads about random rubbish then of course youíre likely to get flamed because itís not the done thing. You might think thatís being hostile or unwelcome but itís no different to the other forums.

I think many people's points have not been that they get abuse for starting rubbish threads, but that they'll make a sensible post in an existing thread only to get that 'abuse'. No-one in GW is going to go into OTF and post random rubbish for threads and to think that that is what GQ users want to do is wrong.

fattyg
28-11-2008, 12:03
I guess giving a thread in OTF is probably worth a shot. Having read through what some people have posted here i can see both sides of the argument to a certain extent. If the thread turns out to be a disaster and our fears are realised then at least we've tried it, as there aren't really many other options it appears.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 12:04
skorp's right. Nobody here would expect anything other than a good roasting for posting rubbish. It's more the fact we want to post decently over there and can't because we'll just get abused for various reasons.

That said, I've posted about ten times in OTF this morning and there have been no negative repurcussions... yet. ;)

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 12:13
any positive's from it Mike? or have you been ignored?

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 12:15
I've pretty much been ignored. But,

a) Few posts get a direct response over there
b) I would expect to be overlooked as someone who doesn't regularly post there in the same way that I tend to focus on posts by specific people here while overlooking the majority.

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 12:20
ok, cool. I'm starting to think we should give this a go. However we might need to be careful how we title the thread! Don't want people thinking we are there to cause problems.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 12:23
I wouldn't start a thread just for us to talk in. It wouldn't be appropriate.

Bigwig
28-11-2008, 12:30
I think many people's points have not been that they get abuse for starting rubbish threads, but that they'll make a sensible post in an existing thread only to get that 'abuse'. No-one in GW is going to go into OTF and post random rubbish for threads and to think that that is what GQ users want to do is wrong.
Can you show me any examples of this happening? Can't think of many examples of sensible posters getting flamed so unless I'm missing something it's not nearly as bad as you make out.

Neji
28-11-2008, 12:35
Read the concerned girlfriend thread, just after Ter's post about it being moved.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 12:38
I would point Bigwig to post #11 of the thread asking about yawning.

fattyg
28-11-2008, 12:41
how does the infractions system work, is there a certain number someone needs to get before they get banned?

Bigwig
28-11-2008, 12:46
You can’t count the concerned girlfriend thread because it was moved from GQ. You’d get a similar reaction if you moved other huge threads across the forums.

If you think that comment in the yawning thread was abusing and unwelcoming then you’ve led an extremely sheltered life.

Neji
28-11-2008, 12:50
You can't count it because it was moved? I disagree. It showed the attitudes of some people in OTF perfectly well.

This is a pointless debate because will just go around in circles.

TheOriginalJez
28-11-2008, 12:52
But who decided who is welcome and who is not?

I wouldn't know either, but there's bound to be someon who knows how to :confused:

Damn you Mike, i'm still loading 09 every now and then, but giving up because I just can't be arsed.

It's already been done sorta, as a tester the other night when the conversation originally arose. Didn't catch on ;)

Edit, GDF2.com is available... regardless of forum things a four character domain is gold, i'm having that!

Suzie MUFC
28-11-2008, 12:58
You can't count it because it was moved? I disagree. It showed the attitudes of some people in OTF perfectly well.

This is a pointless debate because will just go around in circles.

I've pretty much given up on the idea now, I didn't think it would be so much hard work. I'll look into some external stuff if the social group doesn't get the go ahead.

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 13:07
SI, how about taking a look at my post while you're here?

page 37

djwilko6
28-11-2008, 13:08
SI, how about taking a look at my post while you're here?

About adding you in the next patch? :)

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 13:10
I still think we should sort out a network game as was suggested earlier. (ok ok I know, put it in the 'on topic' FMO sub-forum) :D

This way we could use the 'manager chat' thingimy

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 13:11
well... i would like my user to be a player/manager/coach....

oh yeah, and Chairman too

but that's a suggested feature for the editor...

now where's the "suggestions" thread?...

hmmm... that's strange... can't seem to find one....

fattyg
28-11-2008, 13:12
I still think we should sort out a network game as was suggested earlier. (ok ok I know, put it in the 'on topic' FMO sub-forum) :D

This way we could use the 'manager chat' thingimy

i would be up for that seeing as i don't really have anything to do at the moment.

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 13:19
I have to work or look after my daughter during the week, but most evenings I'm available

I think we should probably start a clan thread in FMO to discuss this more though. Don't want to be seen dragging the thread to far OT

Suzie MUFC
28-11-2008, 13:24
I've never actually played FM Online. We could start some sort of GD Clan (or something) - didn't know there was a manager chat thing either. :thup:

I'll check it out and get myself set up, in the meantime, perhaps we should sort out a thread in FMO?

Neji
28-11-2008, 13:25
I'll check it out and get myself set up, in the meantime, perhaps we should sort out a thread in FMO?

Indeed. If not just in to keep this thread on topic :)

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 13:25
I've never actually played FM Online. We could start some sort of GD Clan (or something) - didn't know there was a manager chat thing either. :thup:

I'll check it out and get myself set up, in the meantime, perhaps we should sort out a thread in FMO?

I'll go set the thread up, if everyone wants it?

EDIT: threads open!!!! The GQ Clan

Suzie MUFC
28-11-2008, 13:28
I'll go set the thread up, if everyone wants it?

Please. \o/

fattyg
28-11-2008, 13:29
I'll go set the thread up, if everyone wants it?

yeh awesome mate :)

Celtic_1967
28-11-2008, 13:32
I'll go set the thread up, if everyone wants it?

EDIT: threads open!!!! The GQ Clan

see above :)

glamdring
28-11-2008, 13:43
SI, how about taking a look at my post while you're here?

page 37

Just a random point...page number depends entirely on your personal settings of how many posts you have per page. Mine is set to 20 or 30 (I think) so this thread is pushing on towards 200 pages and has grown by 13 pages since I last posted...

That's another reason why a single thread encompassing anything that is a very wide subject area is an iffy idea. I haven't followed this thread much anyway, just dipped in very occasionally, but when I find 13 pages of posts since my last one I quickly lose interest in trying to catch up :p

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 13:51
I was away for my lunch (Subway). What exactly is happening at the moment?

fattyg
28-11-2008, 13:54
I was away for my lunch (Subway). What exactly is happening at the moment?

Theres a GQ clan thread open in the Online forum, talking about doing a online game some evenings i think.

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 14:04
I was away for my lunch (Subway).

You know it's pay day when people treat themselves to Subway, I had one yesterday (meatballs, extra cheese and all the trimmings) yum yum yum. This time next week i'll be back on the cup soups and crackers :(

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 14:08
Just a random point...page number depends entirely on your personal settings of how many posts you have per page. Mine is set to 20 or 30 (I think) so this thread is pushing on towards 200 pages and has grown by 13 pages since I last posted...

That's another reason why a single thread encompassing anything that is a very wide subject area is an iffy idea. I haven't followed this thread much anyway, just dipped in very occasionally, but when I find 13 pages of posts since my last one I quickly lose interest in trying to catch up :p

so basically if no-one responds to you before the page moves on you're ****ed...

i post a thread on the front page, it's quickly locked & not responded to & i can't get a response on a page where members of Si are posting.
Great.

you ever see Anger Management?
when he's sitting on the plane & the stewardess is talking to her friend about trivial **** whilst he's waiting on his... whatever it is he wanted...

urge to kill... RISING!!!

glamdring
28-11-2008, 14:08
Bleh @ pay day. I went on a work trip first 3 days of this week...cunningly timed so that my expenses claims will have to wait a whole month now before I can be re-imbursed since they get added to my next pay packet :( Thankfully the hotel was already paid for else I'd be living on the streets :p

Neji
28-11-2008, 14:11
rorschach2u, I think the forums are fine as they are. If you want to 'spill your guts' about Fm then do it in General Discussion. Just don't make it a rant or it will be closed, also try to be constructive.

glamdring
28-11-2008, 14:12
so basically if no-one responds to you before the page moves on you're ****ed...


Well, I dunno about other people, but I generally pick up reading a thread from wherever I last left it, depending on the thread, but I draw the line at catching up on 13 pages of posts while I'm in work!

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 14:16
You know it's pay day when people treat themselves to Subway, I had one yesterday (meatballs, extra cheese and all the trimmings) yum yum yum. This time next week i'll be back on the cup soups and crackers :(

That's exactly what I had. And pay day is actually every Friday for me. While I still work here, that is.

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 14:21
Meatballs sub is the best, I was tempted by "The Feast" yesterday, but I just didn't think it could beat meatballs.

I kinda wish I was paid every week, it all works out the same in the long run, but come Monday and my direct debits i'll be struggling as usual :( It just seems easier to manage your money when paid weekly.

As for catching up on threads, I'm the same as Glamdring, if it isn't on the last page then i'm not interested. If a thread isn't on the first page of GD i'll not bother looking for it either.

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 14:21
rorschach2u, I think the forums are fine as they are. If you want to 'spill your guts' about Fm then do it in General Discussion. Just don't make it a rant or it will be closed, also try to be constructive.

my questions where constructive in terms of bettering the game.
although recieving suggestions on how to better the game may not be constructive to those who can't be bothered.

as for the forums being fine...

:D

ok Warden, whatever yiou say...

Neji
28-11-2008, 14:24
I meant the forums are fine in the way they are seperated.

I wasn't reffering to any of your posts being unconstructive, I was just letting you know that posting a rant isn't a good idea :)

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 14:27
Iím not quite sure why OTF always gets pinpointed at being an unwelcome place as the unwritten rules are pretty much the same as in the other forums.

If you go straight into OTF without a feel for the place and start posting threads about random rubbish then of course youíre likely to get flamed because itís not the done thing. You might think thatís being hostile or unwelcome but itís no different to the other forums.

If someone bought the game and heard thereís an upcoming patch so registers and posts in GQ asking when this patch will be out theyíll likely be subjected to abuse before the thread gets closed and they havenít a clue what they did wrong.

Similarly if someone likes to play in the lower leagues and sees the LLM forum then they might naturally think they can start posting there about their experiences and I doubt theyíd receive a warm welcome either.

If someone thinks thereís a bug so have a rant in the bugs forum theyíll more than likely be told off for not going through the proper channels and similarly if someone wants a good tactic to play with Hull City so goes into T&TF asking for a good tactic to keep hull safe then theyíll probably get abuse.

OTF is no different that if you want to post there you get to know what itís like first. Someone mentioned it being like a saloon but you wouldnít burst into a saloon waving and shouting to get attention when you would be better accepted to just ease yourself in and get a feel for the place.

On a side note while OTF is classed as somewhere people form GQ might not want to go you may want to ask yourself why GQ isnít somewhere OTF users want to go. Itís a two way street and canít all be blamed at one userbase.

I actually think there are some reasonable points here, and some that are useful for us to remember: GD is not always the friendliest of places for newbies either. We've all been guilty of snide remarks to newbies asking the same question that's been answered a thousand of times before, I'm sure! That said, I think GD has massively improved in that department and the established members are quite helpful. And yeah, good luck posting in LLM if you haven't read the rules properly - there's some real (understandable) flaming going on in there when that happens, so good points. :thup:

I've also said that the majority of OTFers are good posters, won't flame newbies just for being new, etc. There is, however, a massive superiority complex from some of the posters in there and, when they don't cross the line into abuse it's hard to do anything about. I'm a staunch GDer, and I guess that means that some OTFers think I'm less intelligent, but that's clearly rubbish. They should judge people on their particular posts, not whether they predominantly post in a particular forum. But then that goes for GDers as well - you shouldn't think that, just because someone has accrued tens of thousands of posts in OTF that they're going to be an arse - because that's not all true either.

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 14:54
I meant the forums are fine in the way they are seperated.

I wasn't reffering to any of your posts being unconstructive, I was just letting you know that posting a rant isn't a good idea :)

my first comment was asking for directions.
ignored.

2nd request
2 responses. neither were "constructive" (including yours)

opened a new thread looking for directions.
not ignored, but locked & not responded to.

going by these actions it seems the only good ideas come from those in the "clique".

feel free to take my posts & stick them in a "not to be opened til 2010" thread
then you can just keep moving it back a year

i appreciate the help. the direction to the "wishlist" is something at least.

p.s why you even thought you had to mention "ranting not being a good idea" says more about you than me.

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 14:59
What do you mean directions though, I saw your original post, but tbh I didn't see the point of it. The forums are clearly marked and relatively easy to navigate, your threads do not command a response and given you received no replies that would seem to imply that everyone except you is in this "clique" you talk about, which is utter nonsense.

Neji
28-11-2008, 15:09
my first comment was asking for directions.
ignored.What comments? I thought your whole post was about not knowing where to post your general feelings about the game. I answered that by saying you should post in GD.



2nd request
2 responses. neither were "constructive" (including yours)

what was the second request?


opened a new thread looking for directions.
not ignored, but locked & not responded to.

No, you opened a thread saying the forums are a 'fooking mess'. Like I said, I told you to post your thoughts/suggestions etc in GD.


feel free to take my posts & stick them in a "not to be opened til 2010" thread
then you can just keep moving it back a year


i could have included more but i feel this has probably ****ed you off enough

The previous two quotes are reasons why I said for it not just to be a moan. If you're going to be swearing then you need to rethink you posts. It was nothing against you, just a simple warning.

Ter
28-11-2008, 15:24
I would point Bigwig to post #11 of the thread asking about yawning.

You could have reported it as well as posting about it in here then it will be dealt with quicker. Those are the sort of posts we're trying to discourage as there is no need for it.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 15:27
You could have reported it as well as posting about it in here then it will be dealt with quicker. Those are the sort of posts we're trying to discourage as there is no need for it.

I only pointed it out as a specific answer to something Bigwig asked us to do. Judging by his response, you have to have led a sheltered life to think it's offensive. So I guess there's no point reporting it if it passes for acceptable over there.

glamdring
28-11-2008, 15:51
The forums are clearly marked and relatively easy to navigate, your threads do not command a response and given you received no replies that would seem to imply that everyone except you is in this "clique" you talk about, which is utter nonsense.

That'd be a clique graph with a monumentally large number of edges! :p

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 15:54
Neji

the post as a whole was general because i couldn't find specific threads for my questions & i didn't want to **** anyone off.

within the post were some very specific points

1 - i'm new & lost even after a couple of hours. can i get some help, if not here, where?
(i mention this a couple of times, again, not wanting to **** anyone off)
2 - would it be possible to add a "create new division" option into the editor?
3 - also editing in batches would be a great help. adding a preferred or disliked team/player to a whole team &/or staff
4 - how about adding a "users" folder to the forums?

the second request was for someone to Si to actually respond to my post seeing as a couple of you/them had posted afterwards but not responded to it.

my thread was titled "where's the best place to post a question to SI & get a response?"
i would have left it blank but didn't think i could.
"this place is a fooking mess" had a lighthearted intention.
it's also COMPLETELY true, infact, it seems a bunch of the experienced users were talking about it earlier.

you said i should post in GD, great... i did... and was ignored.
you guys being so experienced i figured you could have at least said something like "this point here should go there, that one there, a new thread for this maybe"

so if this is where i should post but it just gets ignored what then?
multiple postings?
i'm guessing that wouldn't be a good idea either...

lol, the first quote you mentioned came AFTER you said not to post a rant so that doesn't count, & the 2nd quote was me saying "i'm sorry, if i've said too much already, i'm new, just lookin' for a little help"...

so again, you feeling the need to tell me not to rant says more about you than it does me.

apologies for being new & not knowing the protocol

*rolls up trouser leg, gives funny handshake whilst stepping on your foot & blinking morse code with one eye*

as for the "swearing", i wasn't aware that pressing SHIFT + 8 four times was swearing.
even then i thought i was being pretty conservative considering the word i had in my mind.

glamdring
28-11-2008, 15:58
Being a new forum member at a time that coincides with a new release is "unfortunate" to be honest! There's always more nonsense around at those times than most of the rest of the year.

Ter
28-11-2008, 16:01
I only pointed it out as a specific answer to something Bigwig asked us to do. Judging by his response, you have to have led a sheltered life to think it's offensive. So I guess there's no point reporting it if it passes for acceptable over there.

I would say it's exactly the type of post we're trying to stamp out.

GillsMan
28-11-2008, 16:02
as for the "swearing", i wasn't aware that pressing SHIFT + 8 four times was swearing.
even then i thought i was being pretty conservative considering the word i had in my mind.

It is swearing. Please refrain from it.

CaptainPlanet
28-11-2008, 16:05
Rorschach2u - have you used internet forums much at all? Because I'm struggling to see how it is confusing.

If you post a well-written new thread in the relevant section asking a question, you're guaranteed a response, maybe not immediately, but you're unlikely to be ignored.

If you've got any questions at this precise time, send me a pm, I'll be happy to help you out.

Neji
28-11-2008, 16:22
rorschach2u, I thought you just wanted somewhere to post you musings. Which GD is the place, not in this thread though.


seeing as a couple of you/them had posted afterwards but not responded to it.

If you post in the right section ie wishlist or a new thread with your ideas in you will most likely get replies. Not necessarily from SI though. Also I have no affiliation with SI, I just happen to be a mod. :thup:

Aplogies for any confusion caused.

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 16:41
the "wishlist" proves my point exactly, i just found it a few minutes ago by sheer luck...
after spending a couple of hours yesterday searching through editor threads, "searching "suggestions" & "questions" i found nothing.
there's nothing on the front page that would point to it & nothing in GD.

i stopped looking at the top of the page having read something about the mac patch & then seeing the message for those with technical issues so i switched off.

thanks for the responses.

Nomis07
28-11-2008, 16:43
Suggestions for future versions
Individual ideas on one subject should be posted in their own topic. Please name your topics sensibly and give an indication of what it is about. If you want to list ideas then please use this Wishlist topic

Other than that at the top of this page :confused:

glamdring
28-11-2008, 16:55
Too easy ;) Summat ain't worth doing if it ain't a challenge. If it ain't a challenge in itself then tha 'as to make it into one in some way :p

Glenn Wakeford
28-11-2008, 17:03
the "wishlist" proves me piont exactly, i just found it a few minutes ago by sheer luck...
after spending a couple of hours yesterday searching through editor threads, "searching "suggestions" & "questions" i found nothing.
there's nothing on the front page that would point to it & nothing in GD.


If you looked at the top of the browser window you will see this:

Suggestions for future versions
Individual ideas on one subject should be posted in their own topic. Please name your topics sensibly and give an indication of what it is about. If you want to list ideas then please use this Wishlist topic

It includes a link to the wishlist thread.

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 17:33
If you looked at the top of the browser window you will see this:

Suggestions for future versions
Individual ideas on one subject should be posted in their own topic. Please name your topics sensibly and give an indication of what it is about. If you want to list ideas then please use this Wishlist topic

It includes a link to the wishlist thread.

it not showing up when you search "suggestions" is pretty stupid.
i found it by luck... i didn't expect something like that to come after info on technical issues.

the fact that it doesn't show up when you do a search for "suggestions" just proves my point about the problems i was having finding the right threads.

Glenn Wakeford
28-11-2008, 17:37
it not showing up when you search "suggestions" is pretty stupid.
i found it by luck... i didn't expect something like that to come after info on technical issues.


It's not at the top of the search result page, but it's at the top of the GQ forum page, and at the top of every thread page. It's not hard to miss. In order to get to that search page you had to have been at a page that had that information already on it.

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 17:50
It's not at the top of the search result page, but it's at the top of the GQ forum page, and at the top of every thread page. It's not hard to miss. In order to get to that search page you had to have been at a page that had that information already on it.

ikt follows technical information. i wasn't looking for that so i read a little & moved on.

it says "suggestions for future versions"
if it doesn't show up in a search for "suggestions" that's just stupid. no 2 ways about it.
yeah it's there i found it earlier & was surprised (& glad) to have found it.
i was just unlucky & that's fine. i'm not complaining about it being there but it not showing up in a search for "suggestions" is, as i said, stupid.

it should be the top result that's all
that example just shows what i mean by these forums being confusing

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 17:54
I would say it's exactly the type of post we're trying to stamp out.

You might want to make that clear to the likes of Bigwig.

Glenn Wakeford
28-11-2008, 17:57
It's not all technical information: it's a noticeboard. If you didn't read the noticeboard properly you can't go round saying the forums are confusing. This information is placed at the top because it is the most commonly requested information. The information you needed is at the top of the screen since we (as Westerners) read left-> right, top-> bottom, and the heading is in bold. It can't be made much clearer without posting it in size 20 font.

bill b
28-11-2008, 18:18
Iím not quite sure why OTF always gets pinpointed at being an unwelcome place as the unwritten rules are pretty much the same as in the other forums.

If you go straight into OTF without a feel for the place and start posting threads about random rubbish then of course youíre likely to get flamed because itís not the done thing. You might think thatís being hostile or unwelcome but itís no different to the other forums.

If someone bought the game and heard thereís an upcoming patch so registers and posts in GQ asking when this patch will be out theyíll likely be subjected to abuse before the thread gets closed and they havenít a clue what they did wrong.

Similarly if someone likes to play in the lower leagues and sees the LLM forum then they might naturally think they can start posting there about their experiences and I doubt theyíd receive a warm welcome either.

If someone thinks thereís a bug so have a rant in the bugs forum theyíll more than likely be told off for not going through the proper channels and similarly if someone wants a good tactic to play with Hull City so goes into T&TF asking for a good tactic to keep hull safe then theyíll probably get abuse.

OTF is no different that if you want to post there you get to know what itís like first. Someone mentioned it being like a saloon but you wouldnít burst into a saloon waving and shouting to get attention when you would be better accepted to just ease yourself in and get a feel for the place.

On a side note while OTF is classed as somewhere people form GQ might not want to go you may want to ask yourself why GQ isnít somewhere OTF users want to go. Itís a two way street and canít all be blamed at one userbase.

Excellent post. Nail hit on the head imo

rorschach2u
28-11-2008, 18:54
It's not all technical information: it's a noticeboard. If you didn't read the noticeboard properly you can't go round saying the forums are confusing. This information is placed at the top because it is the most commonly requested information. The information you needed is at the top of the screen since we (as Westerners) read left-> right, top-> bottom, and the heading is in bold. It can't be made much clearer without posting it in size 20 font.

like i keep saying, i don't have a problem with the wishlist being up there, i just put it down to bad luck on my part. although it's completely understandable to me how it would be easy to miss as all the attention is drawn to the technical stuff so i just figured it was all that, having been put in the frame of mind, from all the talk going on about problems with installing, activation and all that from the front page of the forums.

i'll say it again, that's not a problem, but the wishlist not showing up first when you search for "suggestions" is just plain stupid, no 2 ways about it.

i'm not complaining here or trying to make an issue. i found what i was looking for a while ago & just commented on the absurdity of the "wishlist" search example...

i would've LIKED to have gotten some better feedback in the beginning from other users but that is also not an issue, now i'm enjoying my game & looking forward to getting involved with the forums. they are complex & that can be a good thing, once you get a feel for them.

GunnerReece
28-11-2008, 18:55
I like these forums :)

Neji
28-11-2008, 18:58
I like these forums :)

Welcome :thup:

rorschach2u, you bring a good point up. Unfortunately, I think the search software is a bit tough to change, maybe something that one of the vB guys have a hack for or something?

canvey!!
28-11-2008, 19:07
I've started 5 threads in OTF. None of which have been flamed.

The concerned girlfriend thread is probably a bad example as it was mainly drivel. I like to think that OTF regulars are just less tolerant of drivel than GQers.

Oh, and, btw, I seem to have become the foremost authority in the French GQ section. :)

Neji
28-11-2008, 19:08
I don't buy the 'drivel' arguement. Take the night thread for example.

It's ok OTF though. Not as bad as I thought.

Wlv
28-11-2008, 19:09
I think the main problem with the links being up the top of the screen is when you load the forums you automatically look at the main bulk of text, even though there are up the top and some of it in upper-case red writing, it's still difficult to spot. Perhaps changing the lay-out slightly will help this, i.e is it possible to spread out an important threads topic over two lines (assuming each thread topic takes one line), meaning the text is literally huge :D

CaptainPlanet
28-11-2008, 22:47
It can't be made much clearer without posting it in size 20 font.

Incidently the top of the FMO section has big words in massive font saying READ STUFF FIRST.

Maybe it's time to try that here.

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 22:56
I hereby declare my withdrawal from the GD vs OTF debate. It's tired me out today and I'm bored of it.

ahmufcwafc
28-11-2008, 22:59
Any news on the social group? On a side note, I've noticed that all the dead social groups were removed today. So only the CSE group is left now. :p

Mike7077
28-11-2008, 23:33
Just had a really helpful response in OTF in a thread I think could be very interesting. Guess it's not all bad.. :p

Pawel_lfc
29-11-2008, 01:24
less chatter here, more fixy fixy, yeah?

god knows it needs it.

TheOriginalJez
29-11-2008, 01:25
less chatter here, more fixy fixy, yeah?

god knows it needs it.

Sure, come on fellas we've got our orders - lets take over SI Towers and see what we can do! haha

Mike7077
29-11-2008, 01:36
less chatter here, more fixy fixy, yeah?

god knows it needs it.

You must be playing a different game to me.

super_imps
29-11-2008, 02:42
Oh dear god, if you people are this scared by a fairly docile internet forum, what the hell do you make of the real world?

Grow a pair, the lot of you.

iamweesel
29-11-2008, 04:41
I think the argument between the GQ v OTF just sums up the real world

Nomis07
29-11-2008, 08:48
Oh dear god, if you people are this scared by a fairly docile internet forum, what the hell do you make of the real world?

Grow a pair, the lot of you.

It's cretinous comments like that, that put people off OTF. No-one has claimed to be scared of OTF, if anything they just don't like the way some of the OTF members get on, it doesn't put me off using OTF, but that doesn't mean I like the place.

Some OTF members really know how to sell the forum to people who don't use it as much :rolleyes:

GillsMan
29-11-2008, 09:00
Oh dear god, if you people are this scared by a fairly docile internet forum, what the hell do you make of the real world?

Grow a pair, the lot of you.

Yeah thanks mate. I've been sticking up for OTF and then you wade in here and tell people to grow a pair. See people like Bigwig have come in here and extolled the virtues of OTF in a sensible reasonable manner. It's a shame you're seemingly incapable of doing the same.

djwilko6
29-11-2008, 09:18
Yeah thanks mate. I've been sticking up for OTF and then you wade in here and tell people to grow a pair. See people like Bigwig have come in here and extolled the virtues of OTF in a sensible reasonable manner. It's a shame you're seemingly incapable of doing the same.

Well his location seems to be pretty accurate to himself...

Mike7077
29-11-2008, 11:19
Oh dear god, if you people are this scared by a fairly docile internet forum, what the hell do you make of the real world?

Grow a pair, the lot of you.

Grow a brain cell. That would be a start. There are some great people in OTF, as I've recently discovered. But you prove that many of us were right about the cretinous cabal who dominate it.

We're not scared of it! Nobody is going to beat us up or steal our money. But guess what? We are mature enough to want internet forums to be welcoming places where views can be freely expressed and moronic behaviour clamped down upon. I wager you stopped developing mentally somewhere around the age of 14.

CaptainPlanet
29-11-2008, 15:17
Oh dear god, if you people are this scared by a fairly docile internet forum, what the hell do you make of the real world?

Grow a pair, the lot of you.

*facepalm*

super_imps
30-11-2008, 01:26
You see, this is why people don't come into GQ. People come on and make valid points and get shouted down and abused just because they're not part of the so called "in crowd". It's not a very nice place to be and I think this needs sorting.

CaptainPlanet
30-11-2008, 01:54
"Grow a pair" is not a valid point.

GillsMan
30-11-2008, 09:03
You see, this is why people don't come into GQ. People come on and make valid points and get shouted down and abused just because they're not part of the so called "in crowd". It's not a very nice place to be and I think this needs sorting.

If you think your first post constituted a "valid point" then you need to think again son. Seriously, stop trolling. If you have anything sensible to say, say it. If not, please don't post. Thanks.

iamweesel
30-11-2008, 09:49
You see, this is why people don't come into GQ. People come on and make valid points and get shouted down and abused just because they're not part of the so called "in crowd". It's not a very nice place to be and I think this needs sorting.

I've never seen anyone getting "abused" over here

Where have ya

And the part which I've bolded

I always think that this place has constituted healthy discussion

djwilko6
30-11-2008, 15:52
You see, this is why people don't come into GQ. People come on and make valid points and get shouted down and abused just because they're not part of the so called "in crowd". It's not a very nice place to be and I think this needs sorting.

Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself, telling people to "grow a pair" will get you...less favourable responses.

Mike7077
30-11-2008, 16:19
super-imps is trolling, guys. The last point he made is exactly what we've been saying about OTF. He thinks he's being clever.

iamweesel
30-11-2008, 16:56
super-imps is trolling, guys. The last point he made is exactly what we've been saying about OTF. He thinks he's being clever.

Isnt that what all OTF'ers think???

Mike7077
30-11-2008, 16:58
Isnt that what all OTF'ers think???

I've been over there a little bit lately. There's a contingent who definitely think that way, but it's not as bad as I thought it was.

iamweesel
30-11-2008, 17:04
I've been over there a little bit lately. There's a contingent who definitely think that way, but it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Maybe

but i've faced stick before,and I didnt like it

super_imps
30-11-2008, 22:22
super-imps is trolling, guys. The last point he made is exactly what we've been saying about OTF. He thinks he's being clever.

Well noticed.

bflaff
01-12-2008, 05:02
There is value added to OTF if you can make people laugh, or if you are able to offer useful info to other users. If you can do that, most good posters don't really care if you came from GQ, or have a low post count, or have any other supposed fault.

People do get bored on OTF, though, which is probably why they're on it in the first place. So boorish comments are sort of unavoidable, even on innocuous posts, and even from people that are normally qg.

chopper99
01-12-2008, 12:30
Wow, I go on holiday for a week and 5 new pages get filled in this thread, mostly about OTF Vs GQ!

I'm disappointed I missed the thread that was moved to OTF, I think that would have been a very interesting 'experiment' to be involved in.

A while back in this thread I was one of the great detractors of OTF, but i think that like GD it's improving quite a bit. Established members are getting infractions for abuse now, which is something that was much less likely to happen a few months ago.

However (of course there's a 'however' involved), there are still some members over there who treat it like their forum that belongs to them and should not be invaded by stupid outsiders. This is only a minority of people, but it's enough people to still give the place a bad rep. As soon as these people accept the fact that the forum doesn't belong to them and that anyone is welcome to post in their on an equal footing, the better the place will be.

Like with any forum I like to get a feel for the place and a grasp of the rules and general attitudes before posting anywhere (unfortunately far too many people, both in GD and OTF, just jump in and post anything that pops into their head) and when I did this in OTF I've generally had a decent response. I've posted a fair few questions in there that have been answered by some very helpful OTF regulars. Unfortunatley there are still a few in there that feel it is their right to troll and put people down, particularly if they feel thay are more intelligent that the person they're talking to. They'll then go onto say that intelligent threads get pushed down the page to often, but this is partly because only people who have vast knowledge of the subject matter of the intelligent threads are accepted into them, leaving anyone who doesn't have encyclopedic knowledge of that subject left out or driven out.

So I suppose what I'm saying is that OTF is improving, and the wit and dark humour that make the place what it is need to stay. But some members need to be more open to more people posting in thread, even if those people might not have as much knowledge on a particular subject as you do. It might even extend thye discussion and lead to you educating someone about something you're interested in.

Keep the humour, lose the elitism.

Glenn Wakeford
01-12-2008, 12:40
Keep the humour, lose the elitism.

I think this is what everyone wants. The OTFers have mainly been complaining in this thread they don't want the humour of the place taken away. The GQers don't either, they just want it to be a more 'approachable' place to post.

glamdring
01-12-2008, 13:36
I stay away from the OTF forum for the simple reason that if I want to discuss all manner of random things a community who have in common only that they all play a football management computer game is not the place I'd choose to do it! I like to discuss aspects of the game and of football in general with some of the people in such a community, but to discuss totally off-topic things I prefer to do it in a smaller and more discerning group...in much the same way as I wouldn't chose to stand on the steps of Monument in the centre of Newcastle like a religious preacher and start discussing some subject with the world at large. Some people like that kind of discussion, open to all and sundry, but it's not for me.

I'd rather just be able to slip in the odd bit of frivalous banter in topics posted in GQ with people I've got to know on this forum, so long as it doesn't dissolve into a whole conversation taking the thread totally off-topic. It's the same reason why I tend to have discussions in the FMS Community thread because it's a smaller group and I know (to a decent level) most of the regular posters.

Nomis07
01-12-2008, 13:51
so long as it doesn't dissolve into a whole conversation taking the thread totally off-topic.

I.E. as long as no-one mentions Panathinaikos or Anorthosis Famagusta :D

super_imps
01-12-2008, 13:59
A while back in this thread I was one of the great detractors of OTF, but i think that like GD it's improving quite a bit.

I'd hazard a guess that you're one of the few who thinks that...

Nomis07
01-12-2008, 14:03
I'd hazard a guess that you're one of the few who thinks that...

I don't think so, there are a few GD regualrs in here who have sung OTF's praises. Both forums have their problems, I find GD particularly crap atm and will probably be sticking to OTF (and this thread) for the next few weeks.

Mike7077
01-12-2008, 14:14
Yeah, the GD forum is seriously lacking in threads of any great value at the moment.