4-5-1 no longer works - rather than fix defending, SI decided it would be realistic to make a lone forward merely follow the right sided CB...

Having recently installed 8.0.2 i was determined to enjoy it.

Generally this has been the case, corners work, defenders are marginally more intelligent, shots are reduced and finishing appears to be improved. (just don't get me started on IFKs which seem to have been ruined...)

However, due to the fact i normally play 4-5-1/4-3-3 i noticed a quite large issue.

If i play a lone striker, with an AMC, the striker constantly moves to the FL position, whilst the AMC constantly moves to a slightly reduced FR position.

The reason i want to play 4-5-1 is so my striker plays BETWEEN the two CBs (in theory creating confusion over who's marking him etc) and the AMC plays through the middle between the CBS and DM/CM in order to take advantage of space created by the above mentioned forward, fairly straight forward and logical IMO.

Unfortunately SI don't seem to agree that this is how it works. FM seems to think that a lone forward clearly has some overwhelming desire to play as a left sided forward, making the marking of said forward very straight forward.

I've had this problem with 3 teams (chelsea, everton and athletico madrid) although the latter 2 were just to see if the problem was limited to drogbas incompetance, and as such only 6 games were played with each.

I'm writing this in the hope that i've overlooked something glaringly simple and other users of 4-5-1 have found a solution.

I really wanted to enjoy this game after the patch, but my teams complete lack of willingness to follow orders is irritating. I'm not expecting a response from SI, as i'm sure they have no intent of producing an 8.0.3, i'm just hoping that someone has found another work around...

Having recently installed 8.0.2 i was determined to enjoy it.

Generally this has been the case, corners work, defenders are marginally more intelligent, shots are reduced and finishing appears to be improved. (just don't get me started on IFKs which seem to have been ruined...)

However, due to the fact i normally play 4-5-1/4-3-3 i noticed a quite large issue.

If i play a lone striker, with an AMC, the striker constantly moves to the FL position, whilst the AMC constantly moves to a slightly reduced FR position.

The reason i want to play 4-5-1 is so my striker plays BETWEEN the two CBs (in theory creating confusion over who's marking him etc) and the AMC plays through the middle between the CBS and DM/CM in order to take advantage of space created by the above mentioned forward, fairly straight forward and logical IMO.

Unfortunately SI don't seem to agree that this is how it works. FM seems to think that a lone forward clearly has some overwhelming desire to play as a left sided forward, making the marking of said forward very straight forward.

I've had this problem with 3 teams (chelsea, everton and athletico madrid) although the latter 2 were just to see if the problem was limited to drogbas incompetance, and as such only 6 games were played with each.

I'm writing this in the hope that i've overlooked something glaringly simple and other users of 4-5-1 have found a solution.

I really wanted to enjoy this game after the patch, but my teams complete lack of willingness to follow orders is irritating. I'm not expecting a response from SI, as i'm sure they have no intent of producing an 8.0.3, i'm just hoping that someone has found another work around...

Is it possible that the match engine has been improved to work round your magnificent tactic. IE one centre back says to the other, I'll mark him?

interesting. have you tried this out with different forwards too? maybe there is a PPM which make your forward move to the side rather than stay at the centre?

i wanted to set up a 4-5-1 system soon because of lack of good strikers in my squad. so if there is a problem in the game regarding playing lone striker then i will have to rethink the tactics

i play 3-6-1, and that doesnt happen to me... maybe is your creativity freedom or some ppm?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJW1979:

Is it possible that the match engine has been improved to work round your magnificent tactic. IE one centre back says to the other, I'll mark him? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the fixes was apparently to make a lone forward easier to mark - i thought this would make the CBs follow him, alas he just follows the right sided CB.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andyinuk:

interesting. have you tried this out with different forwards too? maybe there is a PPM which make your forward move to the side rather than stay at the centre?

i wanted to set up a 4-5-1 system soon because of lack of good strikers in my squad. so if there is a problem in the game regarding playing lone striker then i will have to rethink the tactics </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've used drogba, anelka, yakubu, johnson, aguero, forlan and guilherme - they all move left.

I love 4-5-1 as it saves money on forwards for one thing, but it just doesn't seem to work that well - 4-4-2 (which i normally avoid) works fine, it's quite annoying.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luiz Hemerly:

i play 3-6-1, and that doesnt happen to me... maybe is your creativity freedom or some ppm? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hoped that CF would make the forward move around a fair bit (i.e. left and right in order to confuse CBs) but he just sits in the one position.

I will do some more tinkering with CF and see if that fixes anything.

Thing is 451 isnt about your forward bagging all the goals, its about getting other players forward.

I cant score for love or money with 451 but thats imo because my team are sitting and letting the FC do all the work.

451 is a targetman formation and I think I need to set my team up for that.

As it is Im pleased as my team are solid as ****.

At the moment I'm playing with a 6-1-2-1 formation in Brazilian leagues and scoring goals, theres a lot more to tactics that just where the players start on the pitch.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mallen102000:

I've gott a 4-5-2 working, my Barce side sit top of la liga unbeaten at half way stage and going well in all other competitions, we don't score many but have a defence that keeps so many clean sheets most games I only need one goal to win

It's definanttly possible to do </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems to be some confusion here:

1/ i am winning fairly frequently

2/ i don't expect bags of goals

3/ what i want is my forward to behave as a lone froward would IRL

other players would get up to support him, unfortunately due to the fact he wants to fondle the right sided CB he gets tackled before they can get there....

My main issue is that rather than fix something properly, SI appear to have just messed up the movement of lone forwards (i say appear, as it is entirely possible that i am mistaken - i would like nothing more than someone from SI to come on here and tell me i'm daft and how to solve it, it just doesn't seem to be tactics related).

my lone striker have all individual sliders set to rarely but trought balls, wich is mixed(i want him to put my AMCs on front of goal).

His mentality is 2 ticks more than my AMCs, and creativity freedom is set to 6. I dont have target man set on my normal tactic(only on my counter and attacking ones) but in all he keep his position without problem...

Maybe they have CF or Forward Runs too high??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luiz Hemerly:

my lone striker have all individual sliders set to rarely but trought balls, wich is mixed(i want him to put my AMCs on front of goal).

His mentality is 2 ticks more than my AMCs, and creativity freedom is set to 6. I dont have target man set on my normal tactic(only on my counter and attacking ones) but in all he keep his position without problem...

Maybe they have CF or Forward Runs too high?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, i'm off to try this, i'll be back later with a humble appology if it is just my tactics.

I've got some advice for you -

Consider giving your lone striker a "free role", that way he'll feel less held back by tactics and run wherever he wants upfront.

Why don't you put him an arrow to move right?

The truth is that 4-2-3-1 was a killer tactic for the game . I don't think that in reality it is a successful tactic. Lone strikers usually move to the flanks to take long passes and "brake" the ball to players coming from behind .

As i understand one of the CBs follow your player on the side while you play with 3 AMCs behind? and you complain?

i have to add another thing, my CF usually have the PPM "plays with back to goal"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mallen102000:

I've gott a 4-5-2 working, my Barce side sit top of la liga unbeaten at half way stage and going well in all other competitions, we don't score many but have a defence that keeps so many clean sheets most games I only need one goal to win

It's definanttly possible to do </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought having 12 players on the park was cheating

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

Why don't you put him an arrow to move right?

The truth is that 4-2-3-1 was a killer tactic for the game . I don't think that in reality it is a successful tactic. Lone strikers usually move to the flanks to take long passes and "brake" the ball to players coming from behind .

As i understand one of the CBs follow your player on the side while you play with 3 AMCs behind? and you complain? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

many top european sides play like this. arguably man utd do

Fixed!

I'll describe what i did for the curious.

- First, i left my forward in the FC position but reduced creative freedom.

- no change, forward still stayed left.

- Next, i gave my forward a free role, as suggeted above.

- no change

- Next, i S-arrowed my forward from FC to FR.

- No change

- Next, i moved my forward to the FR position.

- Forward stayed right.

- next, i S-arrowed forward from FR to FC.

- Forward stayed right.

- Finally, i s-arrowed forward from FR to FL.

- Woooo! forward stayed inbetween the two CBs. Minor movement left and right (realistic) and took advantage of space well. Goal ration improved to 1.5 goals per game, and without any tweaks, my AMC has stopped pratting around and now plays through the centre, moving left or right into space made by my forward - exactly what i wanted to happen!

Firstly, i must say i am happy that my team are now playing as i want them to. But i still can't help feeling that the ME is making things difficult for us for no apparent reason.

I don't think it is unreasonable to hope that if you place your forward in the FC position, you want him to play in the FC position. Why SI made it so i needed to mess around so much in order to get something that was fairly simple is beyond me.

A single striker will function properly if he and his team mates are given the correct instructions.

He and his supporting AM's will not now be scoring gods which the defence can't ever cope with.

That's as it should be and Paul C should be congratulated on getting the "fix" just right in this case.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

Why don't you put him an arrow to move right?

The truth is that 4-2-3-1 was a killer tactic for the game . I don't think that in reality it is a successful tactic. Lone strikers usually move to the flanks to take long passes and "brake" the ball to players coming from behind .

As i understand one of the CBs follow your player on the side while you play with 3 AMCs behind? and you complain? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the CB doesn't follow my striker.

My striker just stayed left - it was daft.

If the CB had followed him into the centre i would have applauded it.

Glad to hear that you've got it working Ched.

So he's giving the CB's a lot of grief?

Is one of them following him?

Is he splitting the defence for the AMC to take advantage of?

Cheers.

I believe they fixed marking with 1 striker upfront and pressing. This will make playing 1 upfront less fruitful than it was before (overpowered).

Plus remember, in real life even if you play in the middle you're going to veer to a favourite side slightly. It's not viable to expect a striker to stay dead inbetween two defenders, I like how it is now.. slightly more realistic.

Using arrows is a good way to dictate how your player behaves, I like using FLC arrowed to FRC (or vice-versa) is the easiest way to get your player in the middle of the two defenders when the ball is played.

I'm so glad they fixed this.

I can't believe people complain because the game is made some what more difficult as opposed to it not getting rid of baltantly the most broken and flawed tactic.

Why don't teams IRL play 4-5-1 much unless they have an utterly super-amazing striker? Seriously. =/

ive always had right footed strikers go left and left footed go right, just so they can play on thier stronger foot,

I've noticed the same before 8.0.2

Try reducing the forward runs for your AMC.

Ched, can you re-post this over in T&TT, if you haven't? They'll want to know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Fixed!

I'll describe what i did for the curious.

- First, i left my forward in the FC position but reduced creative freedom.

- no change, forward still stayed left.

- Next, i gave my forward a free role, as suggeted above.

- no change

- Next, i S-arrowed my forward from FC to FR.

- No change

- Next, i moved my forward to the FR position.

- Forward stayed right.

- next, i S-arrowed forward from FR to FC.

- Forward stayed right.

- Finally, i s-arrowed forward from FR to FL.

- Woooo! forward stayed inbetween the two CBs. Minor movement left and right (realistic) and took advantage of space well. Goal ration improved to 1.5 goals per game, and without any tweaks, my AMC has stopped pratting around and now plays through the centre, moving left or right into space made by my forward - exactly what i wanted to happen!

Firstly, i must say i am happy that my team are now playing as i want them to. But i still can't help feeling that the ME is making things difficult for us for no apparent reason.

I don't think it is unreasonable to hope that if you place your forward in the FC position, you want him to play in the FC position. Why SI made it so i needed to mess around so much in order to get something that was fairly simple is beyond me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this really working for you? I just tried it and it worked half the time. I think it most probably nerfs the AI marking....

Although I have to say I don't think that a target man staying to one side like that is too unrealistic, he's probably trying to pull the defense apart and creat space for others.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_AO:

I'm so glad they fixed this.

I can't believe people complain because the game is made some what more difficult as opposed to it not getting rid of baltantly the most broken and flawed tactic.

Why don't teams IRL play 4-5-1 much unless they have an utterly super-amazing striker? Seriously. =/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you mean, why don't they play a true 4-5-1, it's probably because of a lack of scoring chances, as well as inviting opposing backs to push up. If you mean the 4-3-3, it tends to leave too much space in the midfield, making it difficult to defend. In order to counter these two problems, you would need wingers with lots of speed and stamina.

now really

that was a wreid solution

shouldnt be happening this way IMO and should be looked ar more seriously

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by htfc_ttid@yahoo.co.uk:

Glad to hear that you've got it working Ched.

So he's giving the CB's a lot of grief?

Is one of them following him?

Is he splitting the defence for the AMC to take advantage of?

Cheers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He spends much of the match un-marked, which is a bit daft, but i suppose it's better than him following the CB.

And yes, the spaces he's making my AMC is taking advantage of, which i'm quite happy about!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:

A single striker will function properly if he and his team mates are given the correct instructions.

He and his supporting AM's will not now be scoring gods which the defence can't ever cope with.

That's as it should be and Paul C should be congratulated on getting the "fix" just right in this case. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He hasn't gotten any fix just right - the change that has been made is that a lone forward plays as a FL and is therefore easier to mark - if he had gotten the fix "just right" then the defense would deal with a lone forward properly - as it stands with my forward moving from FR to FL and in effect playing as i want an FC to play, he's scored 16 in 12 - which is more than he was getting in 8.0.1.

There has yet to be a game where my forward or my AMC hasn't scored - so it really isn't fixed, they just screwed up a lone forward rather than fix defending.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_AO:

I'm so glad they fixed this.

I can't believe people complain because the game is made some what more difficult as opposed to it not getting rid of baltantly the most broken and flawed tactic.

Why don't teams IRL play 4-5-1 much unless they have an utterly super-amazing striker? Seriously. =/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is that they haven't fixed anything - as my fix shows a lone forward WHEN HE PLAYS WHERE I WANT HIM TO still scores too many, basically all SI did was make a lone forward behave like an idiot, unless you S-arrow him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

He hasn't gotten any fix just right - the change that has been made is that a lone forward plays as a FL and is therefore easier to mark - if he had gotten the fix "just right" then the defense would deal with a lone forward properly - as it stands with my forward moving from FR to FL and in effect playing as i want an FC to play, he's scored 16 in 12 - which is more than he was getting in 8.0.1.

There has yet to be a game where my forward or my AMC hasn't scored - so it really isn't fixed, they just screwed up a lone forward rather than fix defending. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry mate, but you're mistaking something that's happening to you for something happening to everyone.

Lone forward is working perfectly well for me... he's banking in a fair number of goals too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_AO:

Why don't teams IRL play 4-5-1 much unless they have an utterly super-amazing striker? Seriously. =/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

tbf, you don't REALLY need an "utterly super-amazing striker"... you just need someone with excellent staming, and decent pace.... and preferably some modicum of height.

Witness Everton getting to 4th place with Marcus Bent upfront on his own.

stamina, obviously

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TopToffee:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

He hasn't gotten any fix just right - the change that has been made is that a lone forward plays as a FL and is therefore easier to mark - if he had gotten the fix "just right" then the defense would deal with a lone forward properly - as it stands with my forward moving from FR to FL and in effect playing as i want an FC to play, he's scored 16 in 12 - which is more than he was getting in 8.0.1.

There has yet to be a game where my forward or my AMC hasn't scored - so it really isn't fixed, they just screwed up a lone forward rather than fix defending. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry mate, but you're mistaking something that's happening to you for something happening to everyone.

Lone forward is working perfectly well for me... he's banking in a fair number of goals too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All i'm doing is referring to the differences I'VE experienced between 8.0.1 and 8.0.2 and the main difference i can see is that my lone forward is not performing correctly - at no point did i say it is happening to everyone, so i'm not sure where you plucked that bit of info from.

All i've commented on is how an SI "fix" appears to have affected my game in an unrealistic way - nothing more.

If it's working fine for you then woopee.

the statement "4-5-1 no longer works - rather than defending, SI decided it would be realistic to make a lone forward merely follow the right sided CB" is pretty sweeping, and contains entirely NO qualifier to relating to YOUR personal experience.

btw Ched... where on the Wirral? Oxton here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TopToffee:

the statement "4-5-1 no longer works - rather than defending, SI decided it would be realistic to make a lone forward merely follow the right sided CB" is pretty sweeping, and contains entirely NO qualifier to relating to YOUR personal experience. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who elses experience was i going to be referring to?

At the very start of this thread i stated what had happened to me. I have only ever commented on what has happened to me.

There is a limit to how long titles can be, if you want ask SI to increase the character limit of titles so i can call this something like:

"In one save of mine, that only i have played, with no reference to anybody elses games... the 4-5-1 formation appears to have been broked during the transition form 8.0.1 to 8.0.2...etc"

I think you will agree that things would get a little long winded if we had to site evidence in the title of every thread rather than the body....

I totally understand you Ched. People give this guy a break, his is only trying to fix something that he thinks is not right. If other people dont have this problem dosnt mean that he is over reacting. Personely I didnt notice this problem probable because I was not paying atention at this. I am using both 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1 so I have to look at this with more atention. If this is truth, I have to say that SI didnt solve this problem right.

in the previous 08 versions i just for the life of me couldnt create a 451/433 formation which was fruitful, however on 8.02 i now have and when i get home (at work) i shall upload my tact ched and if you could upload yours id like 2 compare to see if we could tweak it.

just 2 add my cf generally acts "normal" but thats because i have my amc as a mc with an arow to amc.