Learning new position - By playing there, not in training

We can ask our players to learn how to play new positions in training which is ok, im sure it happens irl.

But what about players becoming 'competent' at a new position by being forced to play there for a certain period of time.

I have a young strker who I was forced to play out wide due to an injury crisis at the club. He played 6 games there, scoring 3 goals with an avg rating well above 7. Yet he still has a 'red' dot beside his name in that position. Should he not be 'competent' by now?

6 games is no where near enough time to learn a new postition, the only way to really learn how to play in a certain position is to train and play there on a regular basis over the course of a season or so.

Ive had players who were 'training' for over 2 years before they were even 'competant'. It depends a lot on if they are adaptable, and if they play there regularly.

I converted Cesc Fabregas into a defensive midfielder in about 6 months playing him there every game (I had pastore... what was I susposed to do, sell him?) and hes now accomplished in that position.

Equally ive had Ramsay (god why did I buy ANOTHER central midfielder when I already had so many) and I cant seem to make him a DMC for love nor money (I play 1 MC and 2 DMC)

6 games is no where near enough time to learn a new postition, the only way to really learn how to play in a certain position is to train and play there on a regular basis over the course of a season or so.

But he's played well. Has the attributes to play well there. Scored 3 goals, 1 or 2 assists, high avg rating, 1 man of the match award.

Does the 'red dot' not seem a bit harsh?

But he's played well. Has the attributes to play well there. Scored 3 goals, 1 or 2 assists, high avg rating, 1 man of the match award.

Does the 'red dot' not seem a bit harsh?

yes but anyone can play 6 games out of position and do well, doesnt mean they are learning how to play there, they are covering a position when the team needs it. To fully learn a position you need time and practise, i would imagine his form would suffer over the course of a season.

Ive had players who were 'training' for over 2 years before they were even 'competant'.

I have a world class right winger (newgen), 5 star rating by my scouts (better than Ronaldo and Messi) yet his only positions are AMRC. Put him wide left of an attacking 3 and he has a red dot. Game has him 5 stars on the right and through the middle but 0 stars on the left??

But he's played well. Has the attributes to play well there. Scored 3 goals, 1 or 2 assists, high avg rating, 1 man of the match award.

Does the 'red dot' not seem a bit harsh?

Not really. I remember about 10 years ago, leicester had an striking injury crissis and their central defender was put up front.

He scored about 4 goals in 5 games, but as soon as the normal strikers were back he never played their again. He wouldnt have been given a big tick as a 'competant' striker, because he wasnt - he musceled his way into most of those goals, got a couple with his head.

You are saying that young striker has played wide and gotten goals, and thus should be 'competant' as a winger - but thats not the case, he might of just been lucky, or his attributes might really suit him to being a winger - just train him up the normal way and in time he will be.

yes but anyone can play 6 games out of position and do well, doesnt mean they are learning how to play there, they are covering a position when the team needs it. To fully learn a position you need time and practise, i would imagine his form would suffer over the course of a season.

Remember Alan Smith at Man Utd? Utd had an injury crisis in midfield and Alex Ferguson knowing Smith's attributes put him in centre mid thinking he could do a good job. A few games later he was labelled the next Roy Keane. Every version of FM since he's been 'competent' in centre mid.

Fergie didn't tell him to go learn to be a centre mid for 6 months.

I have a world class right winger (newgen), 5 star rating by my scouts (better than Ronaldo and Messi) yet his only positions are AMRC. Put him wide left of an attacking 3 and he has a red dot. Game has him 5 stars on the right and through the middle but 0 stars on the left??

Why is that surprising?

I can score penalties with my left foot, I can even (vaguely) curve a ball with my left foot - make my kick it with my right foot and im more likely to puncture the ball with my studs.

Now im sure that your player is not that bad, but hes obviously very right sided and doesnt play well up the left flank. I dont know if you are old enough to remember laurent robert playing for newcastle, but he was one hell of a left winger (with one hell of an attitude!) but he couldnt even kick the ball with his right foot - ive never seen someone dribble that well with only 1 foot.

Remember Alan Smith at Man Utd? Utd had an injury crisis in midfield and Alex Ferguson knowing Smith's attributes put him in centre mid thinking he could do a good job. A few games later he was labelled the next Roy Keane. Every version of FM since he's been 'competent' in centre mid.

Fergie didn't tell him to go learn to be a centre mid for 6 months.

How do you know what he was doing behind the scenes? How do you know he didnt spend long periods training for that after everyone else had gone home.

Sure he played well (ish) there, and over time it became more natural for him, just as it will in the game for your player.

Remember Alan Smith at Man Utd? Utd had an injury crisis in midfield and Alex Ferguson knowing Smith's attributes put him in centre mid thinking he could do a good job. A few games later he was labelled the next Roy Keane. Every version of FM since he's been 'competent' in centre mid.

Fergie didn't tell him to go learn to be a centre mid for 6 months.

i take it your privy to the training Man U arrange then?

i take it your privy to the training Man U arrange then?

I didn't mean to come across arrogant, I just remember at the time the big song and dance in the media about his performances there and Fergie saying due the injury problems they would give him a go in there.

Sounded to me like a decision taken at the time rather then a planned move.

Why is that surprising?

It's surprising that a player of supreme ability is rated a zero as and inside forward from the left but as a 5 star inside forward through the middle or right. 3 star would be more realistic.

I think there needs to be a bit more flexibility with players learning new positions.

I didn't mean to come across arrogant, I just remember at the time the big song and dance in the media about his performances there and Fergie saying due the injury problems they would give him a go in there.

Sounded to me like a decision taken at the time rather then a planned move.

no worries the internet does that!!

Anyway what your describing is exactly like the OP, i bet after fergie saw potential in smith playing there and then worked on it with him in the training ground.

no worries the internet does that!!

Anyway what your describing is exactly like the OP, i bet after fergie saw potential in smith playing there and then worked on it with him in the training ground.

Thanks but I am the OP

I take your point but it's a guess as well.

Thanks but I am the OP

I take your point but it's a guess as well.

hahahahaha ooops!!!

It is a guess, but having played football myself for a number of years i know its almost impossible to play one position for most of your life then suddenly change to something completely different without working on it in the training ground. There is no way a club like Man U would just throw someone into a new position and not work on it with him over the season.

A good point raised here, especially backed with Alan Smith example.

hahahahaha ooops!!!

It is a guess, but having played football myself for a number of years i know its almost impossible to play one position for most of your life then suddenly change to something completely different without working on it in the training ground. There is no way a club like Man U would just throw someone into a new position and not work on it with him over the season.

Maybe, but having being a Mr. Versatile myself before I could dispute that

A good point raised here, especially backed with Alan Smith example.

Yeah thanks.

Im not saying it should be possible to become accomlished or natural at a certain position after only a few games, but certainly 'competent' would be realistic. 6 games and you would learn quite a bit.

Yeah thanks.

Im not saying it should be possible to become accomlished or natural at a certain position after only a few games, but certainly 'competent' would be realistic. 6 games and you would learn quite a bit.

We are talking about PROFFESIONAL footballers who earn £Millions and have massive expectations on them.

Imagine any other job that also earns millions.. Now think of a similar job, but not the same one.

Are you telling me that a person can be COMPETENT at that job in 9 hours?

Of course not - thats whats important. We arent talking about a pub team where the striker says hes 'alright on the wing' we are talking about moving people with one mentality (eg attacking as a striker) and completely altering their aspect of playing and expecting them to be competent in 6 games, while still playing at a very high professional level.

Competent does NOT mean they can pay football to a good standard - competent means they really know what they are doing in THAT particular part of the field.

Competent does NOT mean they can pay football to a good standard - competent means they really know what they are doing in THAT particular part of the field.

Ok id take that over being told my world class attacking midfielder is 'ineffectual' as an inside forward from the left while being best in the world on the right.

Ok id take that over being told my world class attacking midfielder is 'ineffectual' as an inside forward from the left while being best in the world on the right.

because someone can play on the right wing does not mean they can play on the left side of the pitch.

We are talking about PROFFESIONAL footballers who earn £Millions and have massive expectations on them.

Imagine any other job that also earns millions.. Now think of a similar job, but not the same one.

Are you telling me that a person can be COMPETENT at that job in 9 hours?

Of course not - thats whats important. We arent talking about a pub team where the striker says hes 'alright on the wing' we are talking about moving people with one mentality (eg attacking as a striker) and completely altering their aspect of playing and expecting them to be competent in 6 games, while still playing at a very high professional level.

You are totally over complicating this issue!!

That mentallity rant is nonsense. Sorry. Managers are often forced to use players out of position due to injuries.

You can't compare positions on a football pitch to switching positions in a business. Moving from Centre back to centre forward is not quite the same as moving from secretary to doctor.

All im saying is in FM, if we use a player in a position that he's not 'trained' for and he does a good job there, he should become 'competent' in that position. His attributes should be key to how he does there. A 6ft 7" centre back with 4 for pace is unlikely to succeed as a winger.

because someone can play on the right wing does not mean they can play on the left side of the pitch.

Cannot play as good as on the right, I agree. But to say 'ineffectual or 0 out of 5 stars is ludacris imo.

The player in question is better than Ronaldo and Messi. He has skill, technique, pace, power, dribbling, creativity, anticipation etc etc all 15+, most near 20.

Cannot play as good as on the right, I agree. But to say 'ineffectual or 0 out of 5 stars is ludacris imo.

why? if a player is very one footed putting him on the wrong wing will make he far less affective even to the point where he is wasting his time.

Your player may be better technically than those two, but he obviously is not as rounded a player, more focused on his one position.

why? if a player is very one footed putting him on the wrong wing will make he far less affective even to the point where he is wasting his time.

Your player may be better technically than those two, but he obviously is not as rounded a player, more focused on his one position.

But he is a more rounded player in FM world. In FM we can compare players and trust me this guy is better technically, physically, mentally. His preferred foot is 'right', which actually makes him ideal for an inside forward from the left.

But he is a more rounded player in FM world. In FM we can compare players and trust me this guy is better technically, physically, mentally. His preferred foot is 'right', which actually makes him ideal for an inside forward from the left.

But, if he has never played there how would he know what he is doing? Playing central and playing wide are two very very different things, we also get the luxury of seeing actual real time stats for players, and we make assumptions based on the stats that the player should be able to do what your asking of him, but it doesnt mean he can, you could train him into that position if you wanted to im sure. How many positions can the guy play? He may be limited by his adaptability, not everyone can learn new positions, or are very stuck into the position they play naturally.

But, if he has never played there how would he know what he is doing? Playing central and playing wide are two very very different things, we also get the luxury of seeing actual real time stats for players, and we make assumptions based on the stats that the player should be able to do what your asking of him, but it doesnt mean he can, you could train him into that position if you wanted to im sure. How many positions can the guy play? He may be limited by his adaptability, not everyone can learn new positions, or are very stuck into the position they play naturally.

They are different but he is natural at both! Im sure Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi played all over the pitch growing up. Players with that level of ability are taught to play all over the place with their various coaches growing up.

There is a clear issue with top newgens being restricted to one or two positions. Slightly off topic but if you look at all the top real life attacking players in the game. Most have 1 or 2 natural positions, a couple more positions 'Accomlished' and a few positions 'Competent' or below. Newgen's only ever have 'Natural' or 'Accomplished'.

Why is that surprising?

I can score penalties with my left foot, I can even (vaguely) curve a ball with my left foot - make my kick it with my right foot and im more likely to puncture the ball with my studs.

Now im sure that your player is not that bad, but hes obviously very right sided and doesnt play well up the left flank. I dont know if you are old enough to remember laurent robert playing for newcastle, but he was one hell of a left winger (with one hell of an attitude!) but he couldnt even kick the ball with his right foot - ive never seen someone dribble that well with only 1 foot.

What does taking penalties have to do with being able to play one side or another......

Dar if your player is as good as you say he is, then ignore your scouts/coaches. Even if your player is not mind-blowingly amazing on the left, he will still likely be better than most who are natural on that side.

I played david villa as a AML in a 442/424 and he got the most assists on my team that season. It becomes easier to play people out of position when you are dealing with some of the best in the world.

What does taking penalties have to do with being able to play one side or another......

Erm - did you read the rest of the post?

Im left footed - I play on the left (badly!) and playing on the left as a left footed player is utterly different to playing on the right as a left footed player because all your approaches are different - a left footer on the right will always cut inside because they cant cross with their right. I just mentioned that I take penalties with my left foot to emphasise the fact that im left footed.

A two footed player would not have as many difficulties, but the op hasnt specified if they are right left or both, so I am using supposition.

Cannot play as good as on the right, I agree. But to say 'ineffectual or 0 out of 5 stars is ludacris imo.

The player in question is better than Ronaldo and Messi. He has skill, technique, pace, power, dribbling, creativity, anticipation etc etc all 15+, most near 20.

Have they ever played their before? No. do they play there, no. Hence why he does not have a rating in that area.

If you train them up to play on that side then the star rating will change dramatically.

You could have the worlds greatest centre back, but if hes always played centre forward then his rating as a centre back is zero. If however, you train him up and play him there, gradually that rating changes and peoples perception changes - and the coaches would rate him differently.

Just because the coaches say he has no stars in that position does not mean he wont play well there, or infact, that he wont be world class in that position if trained to play there - just that at the moment they are an unknown quantity and thus wont perform to their ability.

The OP has a point to be fair.

A right winger who only has AMR as a green dot and nothing else is saying they will be as equally useless as a left winger as a centreback regardless of attributes. Because they're so far out of position.

Suprised people are disagreeing.

The OP has a point to be fair.

A right winger who only has AMR as a green dot and nothing else is saying they will be as equally useless as a left winger as a centreback regardless of attributes. Because they're so far out of position.

Suprised people are disagreeing.

But thats not what it means. It just means that they are unrated in that position.

In a game they will actually play better on the left wing, than they would in defence - no one is saying thats wrong.

They shouldn't have the same penalty, left wing isn't as far out of position as centre back.

They shouldn't have the same penalty, left wing isn't as far out of position as centre back.

Im about 90% certain they dont, im sure ive read somewhere that positions are linked and thus you dont have the same penalty in a linked position. Will try and check that out.

Im about 90% certain they dont, im sure ive read somewhere that positions are linked and thus you dont have the same penalty in a linked position. Will try and check that out.

Whether it's true or not the game doesn't show that. The indication on the positions screen shows that all positions are equal.

Whether it's true or not the game doesn't show that. The indication on the positions screen shows that all positions are equal.

Well, not really - it just shows them as blanks - whether you chose to read that as all equal, or merely as 'undetermined' is up to you really.

From the manual:

"Ineffectual – The player cannot play this position. You are free to play him there but he will not perform well."

Keep fighting for your opinion though

Erm - did you read the rest of the post?

Im left footed - I play on the left (badly!) and playing on the left as a left footed player is utterly different to playing on the right as a left footed player because all your approaches are different - a left footer on the right will always cut inside because they cant cross with their right. I just mentioned that I take penalties with my left foot to emphasise the fact that im left footed.

Just because the coaches say he has no stars in that position does not mean he wont play well there, or infact, that he wont be world class in that position if trained to play there - just that at the moment they are an unknown quantity and thus wont perform to their ability.

I did read the rest. Just did really get the point of your penalty taking argument

Also the point of a winger is not just to cross the ball in. What if the OP doesn't play with out and out wingers? What if he wants them to come inside on occasion?

Now the second stuff makes a lot more sense.

From the manual:

"Ineffectual – The player cannot play this position. You are free to play him there but he will not perform well."

Keep fighting for your opinion though

I've done it successfully on many occasions so this opinion can't be that off now can it

Now the second stuff makes a lot more sense.

If at first you dont succeed and all that

I've done it successfully on many occasions so this opinion can't be that off now can it

I haven't said they can't play there, I'm moaning about the UI

I haven't said they can't play there, I'm moaning about the UI

But, consider this, if the UI started ranking players on positions they arent 'set' with, then there would be no challenge to finding a player with the wrong position and re-training him - the computer would have it all set out for you.

Arsene Wenger is well known for buying players in one position because he can see their potential in another (song, van persie, henry + others) what you are saying would make us all as good, if not better than that.

A youngster who was only listed as a centre-back I bought, but had great attributes for a striker, wasn't "ineffectual" for me. He scored something like five goals in his first three games. Within ten games, he developed an orange blob, "Awkward", in the striker position.

So, depending on a combination of their visible attributes and hidden attributes, they can learn a positional "ability" relatively quickly. It may take time to develop that ability fully though. The added advantage is always going to be playing attributes suited to the position and role. I find that even if they've no positional attribute, they can still perform well and the more they play there and retrain to that position, the better chance they have to develop it.

Regardless of linked positions, which I agree do/should develop quicker positionally, you're able to retrain a player to any position (apart from goalkeeper I think?). How well or quickly they adapt to that new position, is dependent on many factors and attributes.

Do I have to quote this again at you?

From the manual:

"Ineffectual – The player cannot play this position. You are free to play him there but he will not perform well."

Keep fighting for your opinion though

There is no ambiguity in that. The game is saying if it's a red dot they WILL NOT perform well.

The game is wrong. It's saying that if you play a right winger on the left wing he's as far out of position as if you played him in the central of defence. And in either position he WILL NOT perform well.

Christ on a bike I'm just repeating what I've already said and you're still not getting it.

There is no ambiguity in that. The game is saying if it's a red dot they WILL NOT perform well.

Fine - I agree with that - they need to change the wording to say 'unknown ability'

I have played football for a number of years, including the last 6 or 7 seasons (excluding the season just gone) at right back. Having joined a new team run by a friend I was told I would play centre back instead of full back. I had to play there with no previous training there (and no training there during the season, as we don't do any of that we just play like 6 a side for an hour :/) and I have picked it up well and can now play there very competently. I back up to a point what the OP is saying, as I have first hand experience at seeing how positions can be picked up in games, however I don't feel that 6 games is enough.

On the point of just because you can't use your weaker foot means you are pants on that side, I would disagree with that. Again, I have played left back many times and you just work around it. It is the same as playing down the right but on the other side. Players (particularly players who are judged at "5 stars") will find a way around the problem of not being able to use their weaker foot. yes, you won't be able to play as well but you wouldn't be 0 stars

I personally think SI should ditch the idea of set positions altogether. Positions are a means of classification anyway. In terms of the function of the game, there are only two positions, goalkeeper and outfield.

I think the best and most realistic approach would be that players just have their attributes, and it's up to the manager to decide where to play, and how to use a player based solely on their attributes, and not some chart of coloured dots. Obviously players get used to playing in certain roles for their teams, so a player's preferred role (or position if you like), could be honed through the match preparation training.

If im not wrong, the "positional rating" tends to affect a players decision more than anything. Also, if the player is very very good physically, he will tend to perform well nonetheless.

Don't forget, some player just can't play the invert role (or don't like too), such as Valencia at Man Utd, and I don't think Shawn Whright Philippes is much good at it either.

Putting an end to this:

6 matches in some unnatural or incompetent position on good ratings shouldn't make you "competent". However, it should trigger a transition phase which could eventually end up with that player becoming "competent" enough to carry on the job after, say, half a season.

Maidel will still find stuff to disagree though. He is a competent dissident doing it in the wrong position instead of some parliament.

Why would I find anything to disagree with? Your post agrees with what I said...

That's an improvement there, sire.