I just had my most infuriating experience in my entire FM carreer

Let me give you a brief background to my season. I'm playing as Arsenal. Everything is going very well. We're nearing the very end of the season. Just took the league title and am in the semi finals of the CL. In the semis I'm playing Milan. The first leg is at home. We played a solid game and finished the first leg 2-0 and with much confidence that we'll go through to the final.

Now, time for the second leg. I'm 2-0 on the aggregate, plus I took a quick look at Milan and they just suffered another defeat so all their morale is fair at best. I know they will come at me hard so I tell my players to avoid complacency and go defensive and counter attacking. Narrow, slow tempo, short passing, tight marking on their key players... basically all the usual stuff you do when you want to protect a lead and sneak in a goal or two. This is almost the exact same tactic I used to dispatch my biggest rivals in the league.

Anyway, the match starts, we get to the 12th minute and Kaka scores. So ok, we're still up and I have confidence in my team to keep it going. Well, no, about 6 mins later Pirlo scores, and now I'm concerned. I check my tactical instructions and everything seems to be ok. Pirlo is being tight marked, closed down, and shown onto wrong foot and hard tackled. So I tell my mids to start doing more through passes to my striker because he has an advantage in speed over Milan's defense.

We pull one pack on the 30th minute and now we seem to be holding them up well and we're getting to the 45th minute and suddenly they score again from another player that's being closed down, and the first half ends.

I'm pretty ****ed off at this point about how my entire team is playing like school boys and Milan is pulling moves out of its... ehm, behind... My entire team is on rating 6 except one player who has a 7. So I try to tell them to stop screwing around and where's the damn passion.

We start the second half and a few minutes in Milan scores again, HOW?!?! I just don't get it. It's another player that I'm closing down and tight marking. What the hell is going on? I quickly go on the offense and we pull a goal back and now we're are tied but we are leading on away goals. So I quickly try to revert back to defense. Well, no, Milan is attacking again like they're on steroids and one of my players ends up scoring an own goal.

At this point I just wanted to cry because I honestly feel like I was cheated out of it. Even when Milan took off Kaka and Pato they still scored like it's no big deal. The the tactic didn't help, the opposition instructions didn't help, the pregame and half time talks didn't help.

I almost imagined myself like that German kid on youtube who goes nuts.

Basically Milan ended up winning the game 5-2 and 5-4 on the aggregate but this is by far the most devastating performance for me in my entire FM career and on top of it I'm just confused about how the hell the AI pulled this out like this with a team who's morale was borderline very poor, while my team was flying high.

This sort of stuff just makes me want to pull my hair out because it feels like the AI can just turn it on any time it pleases. Yes, I know it sounds stupid and crazy but this match was exactly that.

Just to add, the stats are mostly in my favor too, The possession was dead even, and we both had equal number of shots on goal, but I had considerably more tackles won, headers won, and crosses completed.

Just don't understand what the hell happened

One world class team beat another is what happened. Hardly shocking. Just because you close down/play to weaker foot/hard tackle a player doesnt mean he shouldn't be able to score. If that was the case the user would win every game against world class opposition.

No listen, I don't expect to win every single game by any means but this was absolutely insane. They basically went from being in a gutter in terms of morale and were just scraping by in their league while team team was on the opposite end of the spectrum, flying high and confident, and then it was like a coin flip. Basically, seemed like it didn't matter what I did, I was destined to loose. And guess what, the very next match they tanked yet again to another inferior team in their league.

It just felt very cruel. I don't know how else to describe it. My team was also in the better physical condition.

Its your tactics

Well,its not a surprise that you got beat by AC milan.Its not like you're god and you're invincible.Forget it,get over it and move on

No listen, I don't expect to win every single game

Oh, I see. It's just that you lost a game and then started a topic complaining about it. So that's what I assumed.

you would be starting a top declaring your supremecy and tactical genius, its understandable that your peed off but they just played better on the day.

I had a league cup semi final as Man U against Man city, Won the first leg 4-0. Lost the second leg 5-0, Van der Saar made errors that I dont see in myt BSN Kettering game and they scord three of the weirdest goals It happens from time to time

That's football, these things happen. If the better team that was on form won all the time things would be boring right? Perhaps because they're doing badly in the league it gave them more determination to do well in europe, who knows? Just use it to plan for next season.

it's your tactics

Originally posted by Dirty_ACE:

Just to add, the stats are mostly in my favor too, The possession was dead even, and we both had equal number of shots on goal, but I had considerably more tackles won, headers won, and crosses completed.

Just don't understand what the hell happened

yeh, it happens in real life mate - im a livid arsenal fan but for the triology (l'pool) i had to watch us drop 2 points in the league, AND crash out of the cl coz 1 dirk kuyt KNEW the ref and 2 because babel refused to keep his balance its absoultley pathetic and its annoying - so maybe the game is a little REALISTIC ??

You didn't drop two points in the league because Kuyt knew the ref. You dropped to points in the league because you drew and didn't win. Same in the Champions League. If you were good enough to have been 3-4 up, the rest of it would have been irrelevant. Seems it is realistic though - if the "big four" don't win every game, it's everyone else's fault.

i can see were you coming from but hleb was chucked down to the ground, had that been gerrard at anfield (or babel) it would have been given without a mutter - its just fustrating losing to a penalty decision but hey! im not moaning!

Originally posted by Mitja:

it's your tactics

...just joking. it's one of those matches when no metter what you do, you're gonna loose. happens a lot.

Originally posted by Lewe - Young Wenger:

i can see were you coming from but hleb was chucked down to the ground, had that been gerrard at anfield (or babel) it would have been given without a mutter - its just fustrating losing to a penalty decision but hey! im not moaning!

You didn't lose to a penalty decision. You lost because Ryan Babel scored a goal to put Liverpool 5-3 up

Location: Bill Shankly 'If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing.'

What about if you're limping into fourth?

Sorry, couldn't resist

Originally posted by Junkhead:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Location: Bill Shankly 'If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing.'

What about if you're limping into fourth?

Sorry, couldn't resist </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, anything less than a title challenge next season will probably see Rafa for the Chop regardless that it took until this time in Alex Ferguson's time at United to even win a trophy.

Lifes a bitch :/

Originally posted by MattyHart:

Lifes a bitch :/

whats that to do with the topic

please post sense

Originally posted by williamshankley:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Junkhead:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Location: Bill Shankly 'If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing.'

What about if you're limping into fourth?

Sorry, couldn't resist </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, anything less than a title challenge next season will probably see Rafa for the Chop regardless that it took until this time in Alex Ferguson's time at United to even win a trophy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

United were a far poorer side, with worse players and less money in a different era where 3/4 sides didn't dominate the league, when Fergie took over. And he single handedly took them to where they are today.

Rafa is a lucky (this proven simply by asking people in spain, which was said when he first joined Liverpool, much less all the luck he's had since), cup manager who cares not about some foreign league, but soley about building a winning cup team for the Champions League.

Sure I'd love United to win the CL again and get into several finals, but I'd be ashamed if we did so by scraping, and sometimes NOT, 4th place almost every season.

Anyway thats not the point...to the original poster; the game decided that, adding up whatever variables it adds up, you were losing that day without a million re-starts and every change of tactic/personnel you could think of.

Of course most people on here say it's not true, but I've done tests with sides flying high, against teams at the bottom of the league, and some games are impossible to win, no matter how many times you play them.

Course I'm talking rubbish though. A computer game could never have a pre-set thing when starting a match, could it?

United were a far poorer side, with worse players and less money in a different era where 3/4 sides didn't dominate the league, when Fergie took over. And he single handedly took them to where they are today.

Rafa is a lucky (this proven simply by asking people in spain, which was said when he first joined Liverpool, much less all the luck he's had since), cup manager who cares not about some foreign league, but soley about building a winning cup team for the Champions League.

Have a look at where United where finishing at the time before Fergie took over.

Fergie has done an absolute brilliant job and I wasn't making the point of that I was just saying where do Managers get their time anymore?

In todays Game Fergie wouldn't have kept his job.

Fact

P.S He has a lot to thank Mark Robins for.

I know this won't help at all but sometimes its just the way it goes on FM. I had a result even worse than that on my file that was by far and away my most frustrating moment. C1A playoff final - we were leading 4-0 from the home leg. Went away, played our counter attacking away tactics but no matter what we tried it all went wrong. Lost 5-0 in the end! I was absolutely gutted.

Oh I know, I mean he took over a side with problems, especially a drinking culture, but had been coming 3rd/4th. He got them up to 11th, then came 2nd, but then fell off for a couple of seasons, and if one of the big 4 did that today, it'd be hard to imagine a new manager sticking around.

But as I said, at the time things were different to now, where the top 4 are almost a lock in from the 1st game of the season, because of CL money etc. So if one of them came mid-table now, it'd be so much bigger than back in the 80's with a struggling United side which was being re-built.

My main point is it's seemed like Rafa hasn't given a crap about the league since he got there, and only about the Champions League. And I think but for that magnificent comeback in Istanbul, I doubt Liverpool fans would have had as much to back him for really.

The test of a truly great team and manager is to compete in everything you can, mainly these days the league and Europe. This season was meant to be the year Liverpool concentrated on the league, but all season Rafa has rested in the league before CL games. Ah well, none of my business lol

back to the original question:

In my experience, the computer very rarely (if ever) allows you to get away with starting defensively in a cup mach, whether it's domestic or european, and whether it's played over one leg or two.

Also, players with good off-the-ball (of which milan has loads) can easily 1-touch pass their way around a pressing style of game, like that which you were playing, and leave your players as the pig-in-the middle.

Personally, would have gone with my normal tactics, but with my full-backs pushing up slightly less.

(Also, think you're telling your players to do so many things to Pirlo that they may be getting bewildered)

had this aswell. i was PSV in 1st round after the groups in the champs league had beaten real madrid at home and drew away, so go into the round vs lyon with confidence, beat them 4-2 at home, conceded late goals. so second leg away thought i could grab a draw, nope i lost 6-3 and lost 8-7 on agg, benezma scored 4, i wasnt very happy to say the least.

Originally posted by williamshankley:

You didn't lose to a penalty decision. You lost because Ryan Babel scored a goal to put Liverpool 5-3 up

That kind of stupidity does my head in.

The score would'nt have been 4-2 if Arsenal weren't going for it, last minute and all that. It's either 3-3 or 4-2.

What cost them the game is the penalty as it changed the game, not the 4th goal. And the penalty is debatable, if that was given then Hleb's one should have been given.

Some people say people cant accept defeat I dont mind losing to anyone, and I'll hold my hands up and say well done if I believe the opposition played well. But Liverpool did not win it 'properly' the match was overshadowed by two penalty decisions.

So next time dont say it was 4-2 and penalty doesnt matter, cos it does!

Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

it's your tactics

...just joking. it's one of those matches when no metter what you do, you're gonna loose. happens a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sure is. doesnt say a lot for fm.

i got beaten by derby ( was managing chelsea) 4-3. the scored couple of incredible goals in the last few minutes. i was so cheesed off that i replayed the game to see what happens.

i got beaten eight times in a row. ranging from 1-0 to 6-5. some of the goals were incredible. terry scored a hat trick of owngoals in one of them. derby got four penalties in another.

changes the linups, changed the tactics..nothing helped. its bs.

some games are just pre determined.

Opposition instructions are the reason. If the other team has class players (which Milan certainly does), opposition instructions do more harm then good. It just means that you have one guy marking Kaka, but the problem is that he is committed to Kaka so other players can find openings in your defense. Or Kaka can just use his skill to get around your defenders.

Also, I find that playing with defensive mentality almost always backfires. If you want to keep the opposition at bay, play balanced, deep back line, with a slow built-up attack, and keep possession. Most AI teams play the counter attack so you probably shouldn't go too fancy. I think the short passing was your problem because you may have given the ball away too much and let them score on the counter. Generally, hard tackling is a VERY BAD idea against good teams. Skillful players like Pirlo can evade your tackles and can pick out the tightly-marked players like Kaka.

Also, look at your team talk results, the players may have reacted badly to it for whatever reason. Or possibly, the Milanese were inspired by their team talk.

BTW, Kaka scoring isn't necessarily a fault of your own

Originally posted by mizan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by williamshankley:

You didn't lose to a penalty decision. You lost because Ryan Babel scored a goal to put Liverpool 5-3 up

That kind of stupidity does my head in.

The score would'nt have been 4-2 if Arsenal weren't going for it, last minute and all that. It's either 3-3 or 4-2.

What cost them the game is the penalty as it changed the game, not the 4th goal. And the penalty is debatable, if that was given then Hleb's one should have been given.

Some people say people cant accept defeat I dont mind losing to anyone, and I'll hold my hands up and say well done if I believe the opposition played well. But Liverpool did not win it 'properly' the match was overshadowed by two penalty decisions.

So next time dont say it was 4-2 and penalty doesnt matter, cos it does! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love bitter Arsenal Fans!!

Also, i have to agree with Nostromo, i've also experienced similar things when facing an easy win situation. I tried 4 or 5 different formations and tactics with no success against a non-league team in the cup... every time they won with a dubious decision!

I don't think it's any big mystery. Using defensive tactics against AC Milan, with close marking and hard tackling? Against Kaka & Co.? This isn't a good idea, as these players' footwork is world class. Your defenders were probably left lying on the ground as they went around your over-aggressive defenders right and left.

Frankly, I would have stuck with the tactics that got you 2-0, perhaps just tweaked it a little by playing your back line a little deeper, slowing down the game slightly and edging your offense/defense slider just a tick or two towards the defensive. You're still playing the same game, but you're compensating for the different atmosphere.

When you "switched back" to the defensive, you went right back to what wasn't working the first time. When you got level on agg, that was probably the time to step up the aggression.

I might not have undressed the team at half time either, perhaps told them to do it for the fans, or somesuch.

Better luck next 'round.

Didn't expect to have a whole discussion on this thread. Thanks to all for offering their advice. To tell you the truth, I was quite angry after that match and needed to vent a bit so I posted but I'm glad to see you all giving me some tactical advice.

@ToonForever: Well that's what I did in the first leg too. I actually played a defensive counter-attacking game and that's how I got the 2-0 lead. I actually managed to mark out Kaka, Pirlo, and Gilardino in that game pretty well. I suppose the second leg was one of those games where you'd just loose no matter what you did. Two of their goals were a bit lucky though since one was an own goal and another took a crazy deflection and went past my keeper.

Anyway, I came to terms with it after sleeping it off and went on to close out the season by winning the FA cup.

The funny thing is that I'm a big Milan fan and was ****ed at them quite badly for what they did to me

Sorry for the double post. To one of the people who asked about the team talk feedback. The half time talk was good and half the team seemed to be motivated after it but it didn't seem to matter much at all. Just one of those days.

Just one of those days.

Isn't it funny, though, how one of these losses like that makes you feel just as bagged as when your team gets worked?

To me, *that's* realism

Originally posted by ToonForever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just one of those days.

Isn't it funny, though, how one of these losses like that makes you feel just as bagged as when your team gets worked?

To me, *that's* realism </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. You feel like you got robbed of everything. I love this "realism"

A bit off topic... you're in Cali, I'm in Oregon

Originally posted by Dirty_ACE:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ToonForever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just one of those days.

Isn't it funny, though, how one of these losses like that makes you feel just as bagged as when your team gets worked?

To me, *that's* realism </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. You feel like you got robbed of everything. I love this "realism"

A bit off topic... you're in Cali, I'm in Oregon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, just getting our first "summer" weather here in Steinbeck Country :-)

Originally posted by ToonForever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dirty_ACE:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ToonForever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just one of those days.

Isn't it funny, though, how one of these losses like that makes you feel just as bagged as when your team gets worked?

To me, *that's* realism </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. You feel like you got robbed of everything. I love this "realism"

A bit off topic... you're in Cali, I'm in Oregon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, just getting our first "summer" weather here in Steinbeck Country :-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here. Today, for the first time it actually feels like spring.