Are SI going to look at Italian non-EU rules in more detail for future games?

The implementaion so far, is a simple 1 per season policy.

This is obviously very annoying as most of the top talent is South American and only being allowed one a season is a bit of a hinderence.

IRL, there are many things clubs do to get around this rule. They can look hard into the players heritage to magic up a dual nationality. They can actually forge the documents as happened with Dida and some other players. And they can also come to an agreement with another club with a spare non-EU space, who will sign the player for you, and then immeadiately loan/sell them to you. This also happens a fair bit.

I think it would be good to put some of these options in to give managers of Italian clubs a fair chance at snapping up South American talent.

Making the game as corrupt as real life italian football is on a par with the guy who wanted to drive the team bus to games.

Its just like how British clubs can have feeder clubs for work permits. Not really corrupt. Just makes it a bit more realistic.

Next you'll be asking for the ability to pay off opposition players or officials to throw the match for you!

The reason these aren't in the game is because they break that rule, it is illegal to forge nationality documents so SI definetly won't do it, and probably illegal, in the football sense, to pay other clubs to buy a player for you. There are some parts of football you don't want to be realistic in this game, like this and performance enhancing drugs for example.

Although looking at some of your other post I highly doubt this is a serious suggestion :/

No. The 1 non-EU rule was implemented because of Italy's poor performace during the WC, yes I know it was a bit drastic but Italy was trying to send a message. Just like how England implemented a 25 squad player rule and Spain a 25 man roster as well as a 3 foriegn player rule except for Africans.

probably illegal, in the football sense, to pay other clubs to buy a player for you.

Its definitely not illegal. They do it blatantly all the time. Kerlon to Inter was one. From his Wiki actually...

Kerlon was signed by Chievo in 2008. Likes the deal that Inter bought Júlio César and Victor Obinna, Inter borrowed the non-EU registration quota from Chievo instead of using its own quota.

It happens all the time, is legal, and would be very very useful. I'm missing out on lots of talent because I can only get one Brazillian a season

I don't know much about the rule in terms of loop holes but I would be pretty certain in betting that the SI researches do and if it was legal then it would be an option in the game to 'swap' quotas much like the way you can swap Draft Picks in the MLS

IRL, Udinese are sending a lot of young south American players to Granada CF in the Liga adelante in Spain. Usually with these youngsters, they're two year loans and some of these players won't even feature in Granada's first team plans. They'll play for the B side in the Spanish 5th tier. Essentially, they're sending them to Spain in order for them to be eligible for Spanish citizenship after two years, which due to political agreements (former colonies and all that...), they can apply for. Hence they'll be EU citizens and will avoid the foreign player restrictions.

I think what you're suggesting Sheva Elite, is that clubs (not only in Italy) aren't as proactive in the game as they might be IRL trying to find "solutions"?

If that's the case, then I would tend to agree. It's similar to clubs that have affiliate deals, but don't tend to use them effectively enough in the game to loan or sign players.

The problem is though, is that this is possibly an excruciatingly difficult aspect of "reality" to code into the game, I would imagine. From a research perspective, all we can do is to place players with teams, under whatever appropriate contracts, at the time of our deadlines, with the options available within the game itself.

Human users are more likely to exploit more realistic circumstances, than the AI controlled teams though. I've established affiliate deals in some saves myself, with the sole purpose of using those feeder teams to get around work permit restrictions. Sending non-EU players to teams in countries that offer the minimum period of time to gain citizenship. For example, when I'm managing a top English team, I'll always try to get a Spanish feeder club, purely so I can sign promising south American players, then loan them out for two years with the hope they'll decide to accept Spanish citizenship.

As for the other suggestions, such as dodgy paperwork and the like, I really don't think it would be appropriate for SI to go down that route.

Ideally, what I'd like is.

1) Player interaction where you ask the player to look into his heritage and see if he is eligible for an italian/spanish/portugese passport. This happens a lot IRL.

2) Have a new type of feeder club. One where you take the non-EU slot. So basically, exactly what happened in the Kerlon deal.

Also, it would be great if their was more inter-club negotiation in the way you were suggesting. Basically, buying a player, but immeadiately giving them to someone else for abit until they are eligible to come back. Also a bit like what Barca have done with Kerrison and Henrique. Would be a good way to develop youth. You sign a player, but with an agreement in place that he doesnt actually even go to your team immeadiataly

1) this would go beyond realism as the game would have to start making up nationalities for players. They have a second nationality if it is known that they have one and if they have one that isn't known how is the game meant to find out? although distant ones like Ryan Giggs' Sierra Leone nationality could be 'hidden' for you to 'discover' though this would probably be pointless as it would just add hassle

2) again would not be realistic as i doubt this is actually allowed, just because it happens doesn't mean it's OK, as I said in an earlier post if it was then a 'swap deal' for these quotas would already be implemented into the game.

3) you can already do this when you sign a player by just signing the player at the end of yours or their season

Not everything that is real is good.

2) again would not be realistic as i doubt this is actually allowed, just because it happens doesn't mean it's OK, as I said in an earlier post if it was then a 'swap deal' for these quotas would already be implemented into the game.

What?

Of course it is allowed. It happens every season, and no one makes a secret of it. How can something that actual happens in REAL life frequently not be realisitc?

And for number 3), I meant having the option to send them to another club. So say I sign a Brazillian 18 year old. I can loan him to a Spanish 2nd tier side for 2 years before he has even arrived at my club. Or one year. Point is, the loan would be pre-arranged as opposed to signing the player, then hoping to be able to loan him out. Lots of times a talented younster refuses to go on loan for no good reason

Just because it happens doesn't mean its allowed, Italy is massively corrupt, and not just in football! Millions of people take drugs like Heroin, Cocaine and Weed etc. but doesn't mean there allowed to take them. Again as I have already said if this was allowed I would bet that it would be implemented as a 'swap deal' scenario bid thing...

As for the loaning just get a feeder club in spain or belguim or poland and send them there you may have to waste a few weeks of them being in that nation but it's not that disruptive is it?? and if they're rejecting to go out on loan do the little primadonna's even deserve to be at your club?? If no just sell them a year or so later for a profit or keep them for five or so years if they are worth it

Probably your first ever decent thread Sheva

I agree. Well, except for this bit:

Player interaction where you ask the player to look into his heritage and see if he is eligible for an italian/spanish/portugese passport. This happens a lot IRL.

It's too vague for the game. I'd stick to introducing an interaction system which allows a manager to select an affiliated club for the specific purpose of gaining dual nationality, and make it a lot more "applicable" than it currently is in-game.

I was just thinking about this myself actually, so I'm glad someone brought it up. All the nay-sayers in here misunderstand the suggestion, I think. The forged documents are beyond the scope of FM, I don't think that should be implemented; and the request to find some long-lost Spanish/Portuguese great uncle to get dual citizenship is attractive, but again probably not something that needs to be implemented given we already have 2nd nationalities (though the case could be made that newgen 2nd nationalities need major tweaking to increase the number of South Americans with dual EU citizenship).

The option to sign a foreigner via another club with a spare EA slot really must be implemented. It is such an integral part of managing in Serie A, especially given the incredible number of promising Brazilians on FM this year. Many posters above seem to relate this to corruption in some way, which just highlights their lack of knowledge and prejudices toward the Italian game. There have been some great examples listed above of where this system has been put to great, legal use (Kerlon, Obinna, Julio Cesar, etc).

As I said in an earlier post, as chuz seems to be referring to me, I don't know the loop-holes of this rule but highly doubt it is legal to pay a team to buy you a player, although reading in to it, it seems it is easily bypassed by simply making it look like a team bought them for them selves then sold them later i.e. Julio Cesar was at Chievo 6 months before he moved to Inter, Obinna was at Chievo for 3 years before leaving for Inter and Kerlon spent a year at Chievo... so it may not strictly be allowed but is just easily disguised despite being well documented other wise.

If this were to become implemented it would IMO as an ability to swap quotas for players like in the MLS with draft picks or as a co-ownership buying deal were you offerthe players services for a period of time in exchange for them using up here non-EU quota not as a buy this player for me and then give him me immediately as the rest of the thread suggests

We might as well call it Football Manager Sims :-/

There is no rule in Italy against dealing with another club so that they sign on your behalf another player... people just really love to hate the Italians

There is no rule in Italy against dealing with another club so that they sign on your behalf another player... people just really love to hate the Italians

Especially after the WC in 2006.

Serie A is an incredibly interesting league and SI needs to pay more attention to the way it operates. Corruption is everywhere in football (hello Qatar) and to pretend that it only exists in Italy is naive.

Spot on, Boooooom and bterz. I hate Italy as much as any football-loving Australian, and wouldn't hesitate to land a right hook on Totti if ever I had the chance, but to let these sentiments influence the playability of the league in Football Manager is absurd. People need to relax, take a breather, and look at the facts. This is not corrupt, this is widely used by the top clubs, and is absolutely legit. It is no more 'corrupt' than an English club purchasing a player who can't get a work permit with the intention of loaning him to an affiliate club to gain citizenship. It is a valuable and ingenius work-around, and I'm sure the Premier League players out there would be up in arms if the aforementioned ability was not included in the game, so Serie A gamers have every right to expect this to be introduced.

I think the more difficult aspect is logistics- How do SI actually go about implementing this.

I'm not sure whether an 'affiliate' type reationship should be set up between clubs (eg. Inter and Chievo) or if it should be more of a once-off deal between two clubs depending a lot on who has a non-EU slot available. The in-game benefits would be fantastic whether the player controls the big or smaller club: Obviously, the bigger club is able to sign their player, whilst the smaller club would benefit hugely from having a talented youngster at the club for a time and would also perhaps get a sizable payment for their cooperation.

I think the easiest way would be for the game to treat it as an instant loan, without ability to recall, for a season (or two). The player signs for the big club, but instead moves to the small club on loan for a year, due to return to the big club after this time.

Making the game as corrupt as real life italian football is on a par with the guy who wanted to drive the team bus to games.

ive got to agree with that:D:D

The option to sign a foreigner via another club with a spare EA slot really must be implemented. It is such an integral part of managing in Serie A, especially given the incredible number of promising Brazilians on FM this year. Many posters above seem to relate this to corruption in some way, which just highlights their lack of knowledge and prejudices toward the Italian game. There have been some great examples listed above of where this system has been put to great, legal use (Kerlon, Obinna, Julio Cesar, etc).

I think most of the posters saying it is corruption are actually talking about the orginal poster saying forging documents, and magic up a dual nationality.

1) the Italian league is the most 'corrupt' of any of the major leagues. No other major league has had teams relegated for cheating. Either that or everyone else is sooo much better at being sutble.

2) the game cannot and shouldn't replicate any form of corruption or legal dodgyness. Faking work permits is not appropriate for this game.

3) I spent ages searching for the Italian transfer rules, but not speaking italian I cannot answer if the buying on another clubs behalf is legal or not. It would be illegal in the premier league as it would fall foul of both the third party ownership rules and the fact that a player cannot move twice in the same season.

4) no matter how many times something is done it does not make it legal. If it is very hard to prove the Italians will try it. Just look at Ferrari, team ordèrs are illegal, but do long as they do it in such a way that it cannot be proved, no matter how blatant. Therefore just because something is so well recognised that it has become an item on wikipedia, it does not mean it is an allowed practice and thus si should not implement it.

3) I spent ages searching for the Italian transfer rules, but not speaking italian I cannot answer if the buying on another clubs behalf is legal or not. It would be illegal in the premier league as it would fall foul of both the third party ownership rules and the fact that a player cannot move twice in the same season.

i thought that was a general Fifa ruling now a days.

The rest of your points are really good, this would be almost impossible to implament properly, and as others have said SI will never put anything even remotely illegal in this game, until someone comes up with hard evidence that this is not just a loop hole being exploited there is no chance they will look at this. There are rules in place to stop every team being full of south americans, and they are there for a reason.

1) the Italian league is the most 'corrupt' of any of the major leagues. No other major league has had teams relegated for cheating. Either that or everyone else is sooo much better at being sutble.

Its actually the fact that the Italian FA decided to investigate that is the difference. There have been many many rumours about Spanish football over the last few years, particularly with regards to promotion chasing clubs from the Adelante, but the Spanish FA have swept these under the carpet with only cursory 'investigations'. The German FA have suspended a few refs, but on the whole the Italians are the only ones who have fronted this problem and dealt with it, I think to an extent they should be applauded, not castigated.

As for the OP, I believe that the Italian non EU rules are being looked at by SI anyway but I very much doubt we will get any 'look for dual nationality' or 'extra special affiliate' options in the foreseeable. The dual nationality thing was also clamped down on a few years ago in Italy with a big fuss made over quite a lot of players, Carrizo at Lazio being one of the ones at the forefront. Whilst they may have slipped back to their ways somewhat, I feel it is not as rife as years gone by.