Pele stats at 17

Going to add a few legends to one of my games and see how they get on just wondering what sort of stats people would give Pele at 17 years old?

I've got the legends database for FM10 what someone made over in the Editors hideaway,so here's his stats at aged 19, suppose you could lower them a few notches here and there.

Pele 19

Cheers dude that's a great help.

That Pele at 19 looks just about spot on for Pele at his peak, but was he really that good at 19? Also I'd probably give his about 15 for flair rather than 20, and lower his technique and dribbling slightly too. To me Pele's best qualities were his physical qualities, and his football brain, hence high anticipation. Technically he was very good, but not superb like Garrincha or Maradona. Pele was also rather two footed too, but you mightn't be able to make him so otherwise you'll run out of ability points for his other attributes.

That Pele at 19 looks just about spot on for Pele at his peak, but was he really that good at 19?

Didn't he shine at a world cup when he was 17?

At the 58 world cup he won young player of the tournament as was runner up in player of the tournament and was the second top scorer.

Pele was nowhere near that good.

He'd be the best player on the game by a country mile. I'd lower flair and dribbling quite a bit, lower finishing a bit, lower technique a bit,

What do you mean he was nowhere near that good? Pele was a better player than any player in the world today.

Most of what I've seen of Pele is from World Cup 70, and footage around that time, so I can't claim to know much about what he was like very early on in his career, so perhaps at age 19 he was at his peak. I tend to agree with Sheva Elite on this one though. Obviously he's a great player of football's history, you'd have to give him a CA/PA of 195, but I don't think he was a superb technical player.

For me, the greatest Brazilian player of all time will always be Zico.

Most of what I've seen of Pele is from World Cup 70, and footage around that time, so I can't claim to know much about what he was like very early on in his career, so perhaps at age 19 he was at his peak. I tend to agree with Sheva Elite on this one though. Obviously he's a great player of football's history, you'd have to give him a CA/PA of 195, but I don't think he was a superb technical player.

For me, the greatest Brazilian player of all time will always be Zico.

Yet for every Brazilian, including Zico, it will always be Pele. And not just Brazilians, so many people who are actually able to pass judgment will tell you he was the greatest.

Lets face it, no one on here has ever seen anyway near enough footage to be able to give you a definitive answer. That said however for anyone to be asking for lower dribbling, flair, technique and saying he wasn't a superb technical player is just absolutely embarassing.

I would also say that his stats here are overrated, both for a 19 year old and for Pele in an FM 2010/11 context.

That being said, any speculation all of us do is simply our opinions. I personally feel that everything needs to be toned down some.

Really though, you can look to replicate Pele in one of two ways:

1) Give him stats in FM10 that are equal to what one of the SI scouts would give him if he played today (my opinion)

2) Give him stats in FM10 that allow him to replicate performances in FM10 like what he did during his best (the one from your legends database), taking into account today's better overall play, stronger defenders, tactics, etc.

Neither is wrong, so enjoy!

He wasn't an amazing technical player though.

Loads of players are better than him in that respect like Maradona, Cruyf, Garrincha.

I think what others said is generally right.

Pelé at 17 was pretty weak physically, I would say something around 10-12 for strength and balance. He only became stronger a few years later, around the 1962 WC.

His left foot should be pretty good (he was still a right-footed though). His attacking related attributes should be around 14-16. Another thing is that what made Pelé special is not that he was the best in this or that attribute, but the fact that he was a very complete player, could dribble (but Garrincha dribbled better than him), could finish (but wasn't the best Brazilian finisher ever), had vision, could pass, was good at heading, and at 17 he was agile and fast too.

He was also very professional, unlike for example Garrincha. I also agree 20 for flair is too high, 15 would be more appropriate.

In general, you should try to give him a CA of around 155-160 at 17, with a PA of 200 obviously.

Pelé should also have decent goalkeeping attributes, I mean, decent compared to the typical outfield player, as he played there before a few times and even played as a goalie in official matches (when the original goalie was sent off).

Yet for every Brazilian, including Zico, it will always be Pele. And not just Brazilians, so many people who are actually able to pass judgment will tell you he was the greatest.

Lets face it, no one on here has ever seen anyway near enough footage to be able to give you a definitive answer. That said however for anyone to be asking for lower dribbling, flair, technique and saying he wasn't a superb technical player is just absolutely embarassing.

Yes, Zico was probably our 3rd best player at best, as Pelé and Garrincha were both miles better than him and were key to our WC titles. There are other good players that arguably did more than Zico like Nílton Santos and Leônidas da Silva, and more recently the likes of Romário, Ronaldo and Rivaldo.

He wasn't an amazing technical player though.

Loads of players are better than him in that respect like Maradona, Cruyf, Garrincha.

Did you watch him play every week or are you basing your profound knowledge of Pele on youtube videos? If the latter then you should word your posts differently instead of stating it as facts

It is a fact. I'm not wrong. You think he was an unbelievable technical player? You're wrong.

was pele really that fast? he doesnt look that fast in videos

Very helpful post PMLF, thanks.

Did you watch him play every week or are you basing your profound knowledge of Pele on youtube videos? If the latter then you should word your posts differently instead of stating it as facts

Like I said (and I'm not in supporting or arguing against Sheva's conclusions), anything that anyone surmises about Pele's playing abilities is opinion - even more so when trying to "translate" it to the context of the game in 2011.

It's not embarrassing, it's the truth. Pele was used his pace to dribble. That's not to say he wasn't a good dribbler, but in terms of having quick feet, or maneuvering himself out of tight situations, he wasn't superb at that. It was hardly a problem though, as he was so quick, in both mind and body, that he could play the game a step ahead of everyone else, and never really needed do the kind of things Garrincha or Maradona would do. He was also a great team player, and would drop deep and play killer passes too, as he had superb vision. As for flair, he wasn't a showy player (let's not forget the flair takes up no CA, so it's not saying he was any less a player). Everyone remembers that dummy he did against Uruguay in the World Cup, but I wouldn't class that as an example of flair, but rather anticipation. Flair is unpredictability on the ball, and I don't think you get so much of that from Pele to warrant a 20. He had tricks up his sleeve, but he wasn't the sort like Robinho who actively looks to isolate a defender 1 v 1 to embarrass them. All those overhead kicks too, I don't think that's flair but rather pure athleticism and anticipation.

As for Zico, that's rubbish. There are many people, Brazilian and otherwise, who think he's the greatest player to ever play the game. I personally think that Maradona at his best would take the honour. However I would agree that there's never been a more accomplished player technically than Zico.

Also, to your final argument, has anyone really seen enough footage to pass judgment. Let's not forget that particularly in Pele's time, there wasn't a camera rolling at every stadium on a given day, and he played most of his football in Brazil before there was even a national league, so all those 1000 goals mostly came in the Sao Paolo state league, which wasn't even the best state league in Brazil. As for comparisons with him and Zico, who I have seen plenty of footage on, comparisons would be hard given that those few who did actually witness Pele regularly wouldn't have witnessed Zico regularly as they played in different parts of Brazil. So having to go on national team form, Pele would edge it as he actually won World Cups with Brazil whereas Zico never did. If Zico had have won the World Cup, I have no doubt he'd be widely considered at the very least Pele's equal.

If any player should have 20 finishing it should be Pele. He scored the most goals ever!

Someone challenging PMLF's knowledge

was pele really that fast? he doesnt look that fast in videos

He was, not the fastest player in the world, but was clear above average. When he joined Santos he was even nicknamed gasolina (gasoline) due to his speed.

Very helpful post PMLF, thanks.

You're welcome!

It's not embarrassing, it's the truth. Pele was used his pace to dribble. That's not to say he wasn't a good dribbler, but in terms of having quick feet, or maneuvering himself out of tight situations, he wasn't superb at that. It was hardly a problem though, as he was so quick, in both mind and body, that he could play the game a step ahead of everyone else, and never really needed do the kind of things Garrincha or Maradona would do. He was also a great team player, and would drop deep and play killer passes too, as he had superb vision. As for flair, he wasn't a showy player (let's not forget the flair takes up no CA, so it's not saying he was any less a player). Everyone remembers that dummy he did against Uruguay in the World Cup, but I wouldn't class that as an example of flair, but rather anticipation. Flair is unpredictability on the ball, and I don't think you get so much of that from Pele to warrant a 20. He had tricks up his sleeve, but he wasn't the sort like Robinho who actively looks to isolate a defender 1 v 1 to embarrass them. All those overhead kicks too, I don't think that's flair but rather pure athleticism and anticipation.

I more or less agree with the above.

As for Zico, that's rubbish. There are many people, Brazilian and otherwise, who think he's the greatest player to ever play the game. I personally think that Maradona at his best would take the honour. However I would agree that there's never been a more accomplished player technically than Zico.

I think it's mainly Flamengo fans that think Zico was the best Brazilian player ever, and also some people who loved the 1982 national team.

Also, to your final argument, has anyone really seen enough footage to pass judgment. Let's not forget that particularly in Pele's time, there wasn't a camera rolling at every stadium on a given day, and he played most of his football in Brazil before there was even a national league, so all those 1000 goals mostly came in the Sao Paolo state league, which wasn't even the best state league in Brazil. As for comparisons with him and Zico, who I have seen plenty of footage on, comparisons would be hard given that those few who did actually witness Pele regularly wouldn't have witnessed Zico regularly as they played in different parts of Brazil. So having to go on national team form, Pele would edge it as he actually won World Cups with Brazil whereas Zico never did. If Zico had have won the World Cup, I have no doubt he'd be widely considered at the very least Pele's equal.

The Paulista League was the best state league back then, if you take a look at the winners of the Rio-São Paulo tournament, you'll see most of them were from São Paulo (Rio did have a period of domination in the early 1960s though). São Paulo teams also dominated Taça Brasil. From Rio the best team in that period was Botafogo, the rest couldn't challenge Santos in a regular basis.

Many Pelé's games are available in video, especially those from the 1970 WC, but also a few others.

Someone challenging PMLF's knowledge

I was challenging JediSpurs post. I hadn't actually seen PMLF's post before I posted my last rather long winded post. But I actually agree with everything PMLF has said about Pele, and clearly he does have quite some knowledge, and it's pleasing that he's actually backed up some of my points like Pele having 15 for flair and being more two-footed.

EDIT - Cheers for that bit on the Rio-Sao Paulo tournament. I know most would consider the Sao Paulo state league the best these days, however I've always had the idea the the Rio was historically the best in Brazil. I may as well out myself now as having a slight leaning towards Flamengo, although not being from Brazil I'd hardly consider myself a truly passionate fan, and my feelings toward them are mostly to do with Zico. I do love to catch a Fla-Flu whenever I can though.