Offer to SI - willing to be the ultimate guinea pig!

Once again a new patch comes and new problems arrive along side, jumping on the bandwagon set by previous releases. This is an Offer to SI for over 100 FREE hours of deticated testing a week before the next and final patch is released. I might be total arrogant in thinking I can do a better job than the pro's but i would sure love to give it a try. I am willing to drop everything for a week to soley dedicate myeslf to being the ultimate geek and help sort this beautifull game out. Sure there are others out there that will be willing to do the same thing. You have nothing to lose.

We already do this anyway. Thats what we all are really, beta testers.

From another thread:

Here's what happens with FM:

1. The demo is released to the public a week or two before release, for no practical reason other than as a taster for the addicts and so that consumers can check whether the product works on their system.

2. The game is released religiously on a 12 month cycle, or less, with a bare minimum release date of November so as to cash in on Christmas.

3. The developers notice major bugs within the locked demo code during the two weeks between demo release and retail release, and prepare a patch to fix the locked code when retail release lands. This is the first patch.

4. The game is released with only two weeks of developer testing on the final code.

5. The game is badly bug-strewn as the code hasn't been Beta-tested to any large-scale degree, an opportunity that could be addressed by an extended demo release. The second patch is released in December, which addresses the flood of feedback from the forum. However, there's no time to fully test the newly altered code, so once more the developers only have around two weeks to test the locked code for new errors.

6. The community notice the errors from the first patch are fixed, but the second patch has created a load of other bugs (like the "Poland Bug" in 11.2). Urgent hotfix aside, these are ignored and will be addressed in February/March, after the community "Beta test" the second patch for two months.

7. The influx of bug reports, combined with the two to three month extended testing period for the dev team between December and March, allow the game code to be fine tuned to eradicate final bugs and the third patch basically completes the game.

We already do this anyway. Thats what we all are really, beta testers.

From another thread:

Here's what happens with FM:

1. The demo is released to the public a week or two before release, for no practical reason other than as a taster for the addicts and so that consumers can check whether the product works on their system.

2. The game is released religiously on a 12 month cycle, or less, with a bare minimum release date of November so as to cash in on Christmas.

3. The developers notice major bugs within the locked demo code during the two weeks between demo release and retail release, and prepare a patch to fix the locked code when retail release lands. This is the first patch.

4. The game is released with only two weeks of developer testing on the final code.

5. The game is badly bug-strewn as the code hasn't been Beta-tested to any large-scale degree, an opportunity that could be addressed by an extended demo release. The second patch is released in December, which addresses the flood of feedback from the forum. However, there's no time to fully test the newly altered code, so once more the developers only have around two weeks to test the locked code for new errors.

6. The community notice the errors from the first patch are fixed, but the second patch has created a load of other bugs (like the "Poland Bug" in 11.2). Urgent hotfix aside, these are ignored and will be addressed in February/March, after the community "Beta test" the second patch for two months.

7. The influx of bug reports, combined with the two to three month extended testing period for the dev team between December and March, allow the game code to be fine tuned to eradicate final bugs and the third patch basically completes the game.

This is complete rubbish and shows only that you don't have a clue about game developement.

This is complete rubbish and shows only that you don't have a clue about game developement.

...and you think you do then?

What's so wrong with that post? Please enlighten me.

...and you think you do then?

What's so wrong with that post? Please enlighten me.

Software development is a constant work in progress with some deadlines between the constant work in progress.

Software development is a constant work in progress with some deadlines between the constant work in progress.

Wow, thanks for the detailed insight there. Outstanding

If you don't like the way it is released just buy each new version on a Feb/Mar - Feb/Mar annual cycle instead of the Nov/Dec one. That way a) you pick the game up for a few pounds cheaper normally, and b) you get a game that is the finished article.

It's simple. As the consumer you have the choice.

If you don't like the way it is released just buy each new version on a Feb/Mar - Feb/Mar annual cycle instead of the Nov/Dec one. That way a) you pick the game up for a few pounds cheaper normally, and b) you get a game that is the finished article.

It's simple. As the consumer you have the choice to buy the game at the point it's just about to become irrelevant and massively behind reality.

Fixed. As if anyone bar the absolute girlfriendless penny counting hermitlike pedants is going to resist playing the current FM during the height of the football season... sheesh.

If you don't like the way it is released just buy each new version on a Feb/Mar - Feb/Mar annual cycle instead of the Nov/Dec one. That way a) you pick the game up for a few pounds cheaper normally, and b) you get a game that is the finished article.

It's simple. As the consumer you have the choice.

And likewise, SI / Sega could decide to delay the game and release alot more robust version. But who wants to let that get in the way of millions of punds worth of software sales to look good on your quarterly update. I have tested for SI, I have seen the way its done. I have also worked for SCEE ( Sony ) so I think I am able to comment.

The problem, in my opinion, is that SI are trying to create a game that caters for every level of player, where as earlier Champ / FM's I am talking 01/02 and before concentrated on delivering a tried and tested game ( For people who understand how Football managment sims operate). Ever since the ME and various other asthetic "features" have been added in, the series has declined big time.

There is no denying its the best management game still out there, but SI need to stick with what works and what they know best. Other games are (slowly) catching FM due to the year upon year release of a "new build"

How about just stick with a solid build, and update it slightly each year? Its how SI become who they are today, but unfourtunately its seems SI has forgotten its roots and along the way the fanbase that hads been loyal for 10's of years. It will eventually, end in tears as the game has declined year upon year, in my opinion.

If you don't like the way it is released just buy each new version on a Feb/Mar - Feb/Mar annual cycle instead of the Nov/Dec one. That way a) you pick the game up for a few pounds cheaper normally, and b) you get a game that is the finished article.

It's simple. As the consumer you have the choice.

The complexity of such games, but also new OS or other software makes it next to impossible to release "bug free" products right from the start. At least this company cares and is trying to release patches as soon as possible, but people do not realise that one small fix could have knock-on effects on other parts of the code, which makes it risky to release hotfixes that where not tested internally. It's understandable that people are disappointed, but on the other side if you just overlook some of the issues you could still enjoy the game until the next patch is released.

Fixed. As if anyone bar the absolute girlfriendless penny counting hermitlike pedants is going to resist playing the current FM during the height of the football season... sheesh.

Given that's how it's been for the last few years all he's saying is you have the choice, play a buggy new game purely because it's new, or play a 1 year old game (gasp! - not trendy!) that has significantly less bugs.

if you just overlook some of the issues you could still enjoy the game until the next patch is released.

Some bugs are significantly more difficult to just ignore. Especially UI related ones like having to change your formation and player instructions every single match.

Fixed. As if anyone bar the absolute girlfriendless penny counting hermitlike pedants is going to resist playing the current FM during the height of the football season... sheesh.

Mate, please don't change my words if you're going to quote me.

I promised myself this year that I would not buy the game until it was fully patched and tested properly by you guys. I couldn't resist though, and am glad I did. I'm enjoying it.

Anyone who has been buying CM/FM for any number of years knows the score by now with releases and patches. You can hardly claim to claim that you are not making an informed choice.

The ONLY way SI will change their strategy is if enough people hold off until the Feb/Mar....but then who will test it for all bugs??

The ONLY way SI will change their strategy is if enough people hold off until the Feb/Mar....but then who will test it for all bugs??

Ha ha yeah i was going to say that. Might force them into adopting a proper testing procedure though.

Just dont buy this bug invested game nest year... Its the only way they will learn and produce something that's bug free. Its always the same old story, they can never seem to get it right.

People should't comment on the testing procedure when they have't a clue about it or any experience about it

And likewise, SI / Sega could decide to delay the game and release alot more robust version. But who wants to let that get in the way of millions of punds worth of software sales to look good on your quarterly update. I have tested for SI, I have seen the way its done. I have also worked for SCEE ( Sony ) so I think I am able to comment.

The problem, in my opinion, is that SI are trying to create a game that caters for every level of player, where as earlier Champ / FM's I am talking 01/02 and before concentrated on delivering a tried and tested game ( For people who understand how Football managment sims operate). Ever since the ME and various other asthetic "features" have been added in, the series has declined big time.

There is no denying its the best management game still out there, but SI need to stick with what works and what they know best. Other games are (slowly) catching FM due to the year upon year release of a "new build"

How about just stick with a solid build, and update it slightly each year? Its how SI become who they are today, but unfourtunately its seems SI has forgotten its roots and along the way the fanbase that hads been loyal for 10's of years. It will eventually, end in tears as the game has declined year upon year, in my opinion.

I would totally agree that an annual release is too much. Every 2 years with a solid base and giving more time for development and testing would be brilliant, but SI have already said no way. The marketing men in suits get in the way!! But the annual release and bugs just alienates their hardcore fan base further each year.

Failing that, SI need a serious competitor in the football management sim. There is none at the moment and however much SI strive to improve, there is no greater motivation to focus effort than a serious competitor. Even the marketing men in suits would agree there.

FIFA and Pro Evo have it and I think that's healthy for fans of that type of football game.

Good point, having a competitor would ensure a better standard of quality control, but when you can't put out something as buggy as FM11 on release and still be 100 times better than your nearest competitor and still sell more units than you did the year before. Where's the incentive?

Good point, having a competitor would ensure a better standard of quality control, but when you can't put out something as buggy as FM11 on release and still be 100 times better than your nearest competitor and still sell more units than you did the year before. Where's the incentive?

That doesn't make it right though, yes the competitor is not as strong as SI and there effort still doesn't match SI's, but that breeds complaicency. As I stated I think other sims are getting closer, bit by bit. I think that they take for granted the fact that people will buy this game, regarldless of Bugs and bad reviews, for example. But one day, that attitude will come back and bite you because you cannot progress if your complacent.

That doesn't make it right though, yes the competitor is not as strong as SI and there effort still doesn't match SI's, but that breeds complaicency. As I stated I think other sims are getting closer, bit by bit. I think that they take for granted the fact that people will buy this game, regarldless of Bugs and bad reviews, for example. But one day, that attitude will come back and bite you because you cannot progress if your complacent.

Until it starts hitting them in the wallet, they won't drastically change anything in terms of development of the game.

For the first time ever after playing the CM/FM series for years and years I will now be a 3rd Patch buyer of FM.

It isn't until this patch is released that the game is 'complete' and going through the whole process of finding bugs and issues really bores me when I have paid for a 'finished' article. It's like buying a jumper and then being given the instructions of how to knit the rest of it....................stupid.

I know games are hard to develop, the series is still the best out there, etc, etc.............but the tide is turning, the experienced gamers year after year are seeing the same 'cash grabbing' from Sega (and I assume guilty by association, SI).

More and more are going to start to vote with their wallets and at some stage SI/Sega are going to need to review their strategy because if a big game player enters the market they are going to realise that they have relied on us for too long and that if a better product is out there then people will switch.

All in all not a rant at SI as I feel they are good in general with patches, fixes, etc but the day Sega jumped on is the day a game developed by 2 brothers in a bedroom got corporate greed injected into it.

We already have a number of beta testers and have asked for people interested to sign-up in the past. I'm sure we'll be looking for some further beta testers to join our external team at some point in the future.

And dave byrd, I'd appreciate it if you didn't keep posting the same thing across multiple threads, we do not see our userbase as beta testers and have never treated them as such. You're making a number of claims which are unsubstantiated - we don't mind constructive criticism, but half-truths and speculation isn't really helping anyone. Cheers.

It's you guys I feel sorry for. It's your game, and if the buyers are frustrated, then you must be doubly so. It's obvious SI do want to release the best game possible and without needing too many patches to fix game changers.

I know you have to toe the corporate line publically, but I would be fascinated to hear what you think needs to change to minimise the bugs and need for patches every year, every time the game is released.

Every year from Nov-Mar there are the same threads on these boards. Something should change to deal with that, but what?? From your off-the-record personal opinion (and hell just froze!! )?? Or is the current release/patch strategy okay as it is?? Ker-ching of the tills and putting bread on your table aside.

Otherwise, nothing will change. These exact same threads will be there for FM12. And that must be more frustrating for you guys than us.

It is amusing how people are so obsessed with having the most up-to-date game possible. The data is always incorrect because of the insistence of making it correct to the date or release rather than the date you start managing your team so you end up with players out on year long loans that you would never have loaned out or all your transfer funds spent on players you don't want, etc. And even for those who are obsessed with having the game start with all the very lates transfers of whatever date it is released it all starts to get out of sync with reality the moment you hit Continue and teams start buying players anyway!

Or there could be more focus on refining rather introduction of new features and it wouldn't affect sales but would give the brand a bit more strength amongst the more dedicated followers?

Just dont buy this bug invested game nest year... Its the only way they will learn and produce something that's bug free. Its always the same old story, they can never seem to get it right.

No piece of software is ever released bug free. It's impossible to test a game that's on PC across every configuration of computer out there. Even on the consoles games are released in even worse condition due to bugs than FM.

Well realistically, we'd have much more money and a much bigger staff. For the magnitude of the type of game we produce, we're not exactly a giant company.

Yeah we say more time, but a number of the bugs which have been complained about for this version came quite late in terms of development. That's the problem with having such a demand from the forums - (and I don't mean that in a bad way, it's great so many people are passionate about the game) - we try to meet said demand. That means we try and fit as much as we possibly can in, in terms of fixes, which doesn't always give us enough time to test things fully. But then how much time could you need to test thing fully? 15 odd testers and say a couple of hundred beta testers can't match thousands of 'players' of the game - there's always a chance stuff will come up we just didn't see. Or there's always the chance there's an issue which comes up which is of a lesser priority than one that unfortunately gets through.

That doesn't mean we're not good at our job, a hell of a lot of work goes into every version of FM. Personally I'm sure no-one would want any patches for FM, we wouldn't need it. But then we don't decide if a competition in Poland changes its rules, or that Liverpool is sold a few days after the game is submitted. Not every change that goes into each version is done out of choice - if a competition changes it's rules (like the new home-grown and squad rules for the Premier League) then we have to put them in the game. And that takes a lot of testing to make sure it works as it does in real life.

Yeah it's frustrating that we see these kinds of threads, but I do believe the majority of buyers are happy with FM11 and have got a number of hours of enjoyment out of it. Sometimes issues aren't noticed until you read about them on the forums, but yeah, ideally of course, there would be no issues at all to talk about.

Fair one, and thanks (I never expected a response). The resources issue is a fair one, if maybe more people realised this then they might be less harsh??

I do agree that reading these forums is not the best thing you can do if you're enjoying the game. You do start to see flaws that you'd not have noticed (having done exactly that myself). And that most people complain because they care passionately about the game, which can only be a good thing. Having bought more obscure games, there is nothing worse than going to their forums and realising you and 5 others are the only one's who care about the game, so waiting for anything to be fixed is a no-go.

I just feel that an annual release is just too ambitious on a game so data complex and especially so if resources are not as they might be in an ideal world. Saying that, I guess £30 a year for 100's of hours of enjoyment is not so bad.

Having bought CIV 5 at about the same time as FM11, I know it could be far, far worse when it comes to FM.

Well realistically, we'd have much more money and a much bigger staff. For the magnitude of the type of game we produce, we're not exactly a giant company.

Yeah we say more time, but a number of the bugs which have been complained about for this version came quite late in terms of development. That's the problem with having such a demand from the forums - (and I don't mean that in a bad way, it's great so many people are passionate about the game) - we try to meet said demand. That means we try and fit as much as we possibly can in, in terms of fixes, which doesn't always give us enough time to test things fully. But then how much time could you need to test thing fully? 15 odd testers and say a couple of hundred beta testers can't match thousands of 'players' of the game - there's always a chance stuff will come up we just didn't see. Or there's always the chance there's an issue which comes up which is of a lesser priority than one that unfortunately gets through.

That doesn't mean we're not good at our job, a hell of a lot of work goes into every version of FM. Personally I'm sure no-one would want any patches for FM, we wouldn't need it. But then we don't decide if a competition in Poland changes its rules, or that Liverpool is sold a few days after the game is submitted. Not every change that goes into each version is done out of choice - if a competition changes it's rules (like the new home-grown and squad rules for the Premier League) then we have to put them in the game. And that takes a lot of testing to make sure it works as it does in real life.

Yeah it's frustrating that we see these kinds of threads, but I do believe the majority of buyers are happy with FM11 and have got a number of hours of enjoyment out of it. Sometimes issues aren't noticed until you read about them on the forums, but yeah, ideally of course, there would be no issues at all to talk about.

This is all well and good, but you must admit that the quality and logevity of the game is declining. I know officially, your going to say this is our best game so far and everyone is enjoying it blah blah. I don't see how anyone at SI, can be genuinely happy and content with the standard of FM games they have released in the last couple of years. And I don't mean happy from a progress or ambition sense, I mean happy with the product that you are releasing as your latest and greatest, because it isn't and FM's haven't been great.

At the end of the day, all games need testing, every single one. All games have deadlines. All games / dev houses have suits breathing down there neck to get the game out on release. But I cannot think of any game that is released with so many issues, every time. Not issues like oh I had 20 CCC's and only scored one goal etc, I mean actually issues that break your game and to some extent make the game unplayable.

Imo, SI are the absoloute prestige in Sports managmanet sims, but only because other houses are yet to pull there finger out. Imo, SI haven't released a recent game that signifys why they are top of the tree. I feel you are living on past glorys and really hope, from a selfish point of view, that your next game shuts up people like me and instead of constant threads complaining, more threads on the actual game and the next To Maderia.

And come on, games are not released "because the forum / public demands it! " if that was the case then we would all get games exactly when we want. The issue is, Mr Sega ( or previlusly Eidos ) saying, Miles! we need this game released on the 9th November, we anticipate big sales and I want to buy my kid the best bike for Xmas! Then Miles / you / Duffy going, but the game isn't ready we have this and that bug if we release now the public will be mad as it doesn't work. Mr suit : Money Money money!!

Tell Corporate Sega to let SI do what they do best, and make a proper game. If it gets released in Dec, Jan so be it. I would rather a quality game playable from the off than a broken game 3 months earlier.

Tell Corporate Sega to let SI do what they do best, and make a proper game. If it gets released in Dec, Jan so be it. I would rather a quality game playable from the off than a broken game 3 months earlier.

errmmmm it was first released just over 6 weeks ago not 3 months

Maybe someone could start a poll to see what peolpl;e would prefer, a Nov release as current else one in Feb the following year?

errmmmm it was first released just over 6 weeks ago not 3 months

Maybe someone could start a poll to see what peolpl;e would prefer, a Nov release as current else one in Feb the following year?

I think your missing the point, I was talking hypothetically, saying that I would prefer the game to be released Dec / Jan in a good working playable state than have it released in November in an unplayable condition. So in short, I would rather wait 3 months longer for a playable and enjoyable game

look i can see both sides but in my opinion its a good game highly frustrating with some bugs but as people said you make the choice to buy and considering past experiences you know the procedures. I highly condone piracy myself but can see why people illegally download the game as some people want to play for free or refuse to buy until it is sorted. Consumers as we are all have the option to buy or not to buy. I still personally know of people playing fm08 because of the bugs in all other editions.

look i can see both sides but in my opinion its a good game highly frustrating with some bugs but as people said you make the choice to buy and considering past experiences you know the procedures. I highly condone piracy myself but can see why people illegally download the game as some people want to play for free or refuse to buy until it is sorted. Consumers as we are all have the option to buy or not to buy. I still personally know of people playing fm08 because of the bugs in all other editions.

I think you need to reread your sentence and confirm your position mate.

look i can see both sides but in my opinion its a good game highly frustrating with some bugs but as people said you make the choice to buy and considering past experiences you know the procedures. I highly condone piracy myself but can see why people illegally download the game as some people want to play for free or refuse to buy until it is sorted. Consumers as we are all have the option to buy or not to buy. I still personally know of people playing fm08 because of the bugs in all other editions.

I agree with you, but I also believe there is an obligation from SI / Sega to release a product that is in a standrd applicable to paying uprwards of £20 for it. It is all well and good saying we choose to buy it, but on the flipside SI / Sega can choose to delay the game because it isn't in a state worthy of a top level PC game. It is playing on your customer loyalty and thinking, ah well, people will buy it anyway because they are loyal to the brand / game.

And they clearly dont test very well, I mean, did anyone try loading up the polish league post patch build? Not that it has affected me but it still seems like quite an obvious and showstopping bug. If they were aware of this issue, why was the patch released? If they were not, did anyone even bother to test loading the leagues? It seems like quite an obvious generic test to me?

And they clearly dont test very well, I mean, did anyone try loading up the polish league post patch build? Not that it has affected me but it still seems like quite an obvious and showstopping bug. If they were aware of this issue, why was the patch released? If they were not, did anyone even bother to test loading the leagues? It seems like quite an obvious generic test to me?

You clearly have very little idea what goes into testing a game especially one such as FM.

As for your Polish issue it was explained that it appeared very late in the testing/patching process and didn't effect new games, only previous saves.

Before making comments please consider how open ended/complicated FM is, how many variables there are, how many different combinations of countries/teams/players could be loaded in any one particular save and even after all that how many different sorts of hardware it can run on.

You clearly have very little idea what goes into testing a game especially one such as FM.

As for your Polish issue it was explained that it appeared very late in the testing/patching process and didn't effect new games, only previous saves.

Before making comments please consider how open ended/complicated FM is, how many variables there are, how many different combinations of countries/teams/players could be loaded in any one particular save and even after all that how many different sorts of hardware it can run on.

Im well aware of it, as stated in previous posts I have been a QA tester for SI and Sony. And that is what the QA team are there for. The fact that this happens every patch and every release is not good enough. You can put it down to variables on occasion, I acceot that. But every patch? Every release?

Its not like this is a one off occurance. the one off occurance would be a game being released and being ready and playable from the off which is unfourtunate but true.

As someone who felt utterly let down by FM10 and 09 I am pleased to say that I love FM 2011, I do not see any of the issues that many of you guys have which may be part of the reason.

The only problem that I can find with this FM release is the reinstating of .lnc files after every patch. RUINED MY LONG TERM GAME. But apart from that I think SI have done a fantastic job.

Another point is that many people ask for the next FM to just be a polished version of the current one. That would drastically cut sales and could lead to no FM if demand is not high enough, so in a dreamworld maybe but it is not feasible right now for a company to not innovate their product.

As someone who felt utterly let down by FM10

You felt let down by 10.3? Why??

I thought it was the best version to date.

ditto, FM10 was the best so far, and thats coming from an ex-CM'er