The Real Arsenal (SI version)

Hey fellow FMers,

I believe that my copy of FM has a very special (and awesome) glitch. Now this may or may not be new to anyone, and at the same time, I'm not sure if something like this should be posted... if not it can always be deleted and buried away (just don't patch it, I find it VERY useful).

So... I am able to pull AI tactics from their most recent match and am able to recreate the tactics the AI uses. Almost everything is available to copy, right down to corner tactics (from what I can tell) EXCEPT, "specific" player roles, D-Line, width, tempo, and time wasting.

I've looked and studied many, but I've only recreated one so far, being the 4-5-1 tactic that Arsenal employs in the game. It took about an hour to pull and recreate the tactic and I was able to assume and plug in the D-line, width, tempo and TW settings from the editor. After testing, my Liverpool squad play like true gods even though I've only tested against mid table teams.

So if anyone is interested, here is the Arsenal tactic for your pleasure.

http://www.filefront.com/17655135/Actual_Arsenal.tac

Sorry, I won't be taking any requests for tactics at this time... for the time it takes me (which unfortunately is very limited) I'll be pulling tactics I'm only truly interested in, which I can then post as well.

If this is old news to anyone... please disregard.

-Cap

Disclaimer - I give all credit to the tactical genius at SI who created this tactic, and I in no way have tried tampering with game files in any way.

My poor english doesn't allow me to fully understand what it is.

Basically you take the tactic created by the AI, and used by Arsenal ?

Because I tried to play with the L'pool tactic in my data folder, but the game doesn't want to create the tactic ^^

Yes. I took the tactic that Arsenal used when playing against M'borough and Everton, and I made an exact copy. I did not get it from the data folder, it was all done in the game.

I guess one thing to note, this is probably Arsenal's most attacking tactic that they use in the game against weaker opposition. AI managers will actually change tactics based on the match, so once I'm able to pull a tactic that Arsenal used against tougher competition, I'll upload it as well.

i think it a great idea,how do you copy the tactics cos i wouldnt mind nicking the free flowing football of barcelonas lol

I have been thinking a long time for such a tool, that can extract a tactic from the computers teams..... I have wondered how man utd always manage to play so well with a straight up 4-4-2....

Anyway, i dont want to sound stupid, but exactly HOW is this done?

Great post btw

I guess one thing to note, this is probably Arsenal's most attacking tactic that they use in the game against weaker opposition. AI managers will actually change tactics based on the match, so once I'm able to pull a tactic that Arsenal used against tougher competition, I'll upload it as well.

That shouldn't be too hard to do anyway- just change the match strategy of this tactic.

@ SCIAG - From studying the CPU tactics, they build within the philosophies and starting strategies, but some tactical instructions transcend the base instructions, so would require tweaking past just adjusting philosophy from Attacking to Defensive.

@ akjonnoy - I'm in the process of pulling Man Utd's away tactic vs Chelsea (League cup in which they lost in ET).

I'll admit that I don't want to reveal how I do it, unless SI or a moderator gives me the go ahead. Last thing I want is to cause a backlash from SI if they think this is detrimental to their game. Personally I think this is exactly what people have been wanting and asking for, for a long time... I have anyways. And the little studying I've done, I've learned quite a bit about how the CPU plays the game. Could I take the knowledge and create a world beating tactic that exploits what I know about the CPU tactics... probably not me, but somebody could,so I could understand if how I do it became common knowledge, how it could ruin the game... at the same time, we play the game we want to, if people don't want to know how to exploit something, they won't.

@ bats - Trust me, Barca's tactic is high on my list of tactics to copy. Since I discovered this little glitch, they've been playing a 4-2-3-1 which I'm not too interested in copying at the moment and will wait till they play Real Madrid to copy their tactic.

Who originally found a way to copy CPU tactics back in FM07 or 08? Was it Lovesleeper? Anyways, this is like that I think, but much more detailed.

PS. If anyone is interested... I tried to beat Arsenal at their own game at the Emirates... and I got absolutely slaughtered, so don't try and beat the best at their own game.

Who originally found a way to copy CPU tactics back in FM07 or 08? Was it Lovesleeper? Anyways, this is like that I think, but much more detailed.

PS. If anyone is interested... I tried to beat Arsenal at their own game at the Emirates... and I got absolutely slaughtered, so don't try and beat the best at their own game.

Since I think you were referring to me, I just wanted to point out that I have never had any Computer Program that has been able to read the AI tactics - I heard about it one time but never tried myself or even attempted to. You are right that there was a discussion a few seasons back where 'playing like the AI' was discussed in a User named Code's thread. Another User named Abramovic put up some screen shots on what he descovered in regards to the issue discussed and from there things more developed step by step - but I guess most of it is just interpretations and personal tactical preferences. There is a way to 'translate' the different AI Manager instructions - but still it is a 'shallow' interpretation as there is a lot more tweaking involved 'underneath' within the ME.

The settings that the AI uses is the same that we FM Gamers have access to, so in that sense there is nothing really exceptional about them. When you did translate the settings into the sliders in the game, you would discover that they are not a 'win formula' just by simply implementing the tactics. First of all, the Closing Down & Defensive Line Settings were rarely correct and, second, when looking at the ME one could easily see that the AI was changing tactics so that would mean that they would 'move' away from their preferred styles of tactical gameplay to either close shop or to get back into a game. I took notice that it was an interresting subject within the Forum Community so I decided to use this as a way to describe how to play the game using the 'different strategies' and, most important, when...

This takes me to the last point and this has to do with your last sentance above: the Arsenal game. Now, usually Arsene/Arsenal will play a Mentality of 18 - Creative Freedom 19 - Passing 1 (very short) plus a higher tempo and more closing down. This is not the 'formula' (in other words: Strategy) that will enable you to win a match at the Emarites as you would be all over the place and simply be way too 'over-commiting'. Over-commiting settings against a much better opponent will spell disaster as Arsenals quality will simply evade your high-pressing team and most likey destroy you. That is why, just because we know how Arsene/Arsenal will play, it won't necessarily unlock a winning formula - to play like this you usually would only use these type of settings if you were Huge Favorites and it was a home match in sunny, beautiful weather...

Guaridola's tactic will most likely be a 'Overload' type of tactic with shorter passing, normal tempo, normal time-wasting but with a fair ammount of closing down. Still, it's a nice way to play football, you just have to consider two things before you use this type of tactic: #1 is your team strong enough to handle these type of settings and #2 am I using the tactic/strategy at the right time. Always a fun topic, though...

Happy gaming to all...

LL

Thx for the reply Lovesleaper. Now I remember the sequence of events... I had read all through those posts by Code and Abromovich as well, and remember playing exclusively with your Lovesleaper tactics set you had released (which I was quite successful with BTW). If you remember with Code's findings, most AI teams played with global settings and you couldn't really see any tweaks or different slider settings other than the global settings. What I'm finding with these AI tactics, are much more in detail. Look at the Arsenal tactic. I started with what I thought was the base tactic Very Fluid and Attacking, and then see the many little tweaks I had to make to make a copy... now that could be down to me choosing the incorrect roles, but needless to say I'am finding it much more in depth than the old AI global settings we could pull.

I agree 100% with everything you said about playing a certain style within certain circumstances. My goal with copying the AI tactics will be to also come up with a set of tactics that I can employ depending on situations. If I know Arsenal's tactic is going beat weaker teams 9/10 times, then I can employ that tactic when needed, but if I look at the history of games played against Arsenal at the Emirates and I find that Man U have managed a considerable winning percentage, I might try and copy Man U's tactic for playing away at the Emirates as I think it will give me the best chance. All in all, my game against Arsenal was more or less a test, and what happened was exactly to be expected.

With all that said, I've copied the Man Utd Away tactic they used against Chelsea... interestingly enough, Ferguson's tactics aren't really that diverse and I made very few tweaks from the base tactic, being a rigid/control tactic when playing away. Note a few things though, even with more expressive creative freedom, the sliders were pushed to the max for many of the attacking players.

Anyways, now for download.... Actual Man Utd

http://www.filefront.com/17658436/Actual Man Utd.tac

-Cap

Do you use a program like the Tac Grabber? If so can you upload it please. Thanks

Hey Cap, maybe would be nice to get some CPU tactics and organise them by formation types. E.g get all/some 4-4-2's, so on and organise them.

@ Maz - No I don't use any program like Tac Grabber, Its all done in game, so I cannot upload anything.

@ Miguel - It takes about 30-60 mins to copy a tactic, and I actually enjoy playing the game more than piling through thousands of slider settings. That said, I wouldn't have posted this if I wasn't willing to put in a little elbow grease and copy some of the more popular formations for people. Theres also a few variables to consider. I can only copy the tactic that a team used in its last game, so its almost a waiting game to compile all of one teams tactic, and I'm having an issue getting sufficient slider settings for teams that play outside of my league. I've upped the level of detail to max for Spanish leagues to see if that will allow me to copy, say Barca's tactic. But I will try my best to upload as many as I can as I'm copying them.

Thanks mate, forum appreciate this kind of contribution.

Nice work

Perhaps it should come handy at some point.

However, it was possible in FM2009 to see the EXACT tactic the AI used if you used a certain skin (dDs) - this, i believe is not possible anymore though.

I'll admit that I don't want to reveal how I do it, unless SI or a moderator gives me the go ahead. Last thing I want is to cause a backlash from SI if they think this is detrimental to their game. Personally I think this is exactly what people have been wanting and asking for, for a long time... I have anyways. And the little studying I've done, I've learned quite a bit about how the CPU plays the game. Could I take the knowledge and create a world beating tactic that exploits what I know about the CPU tactics... probably not me, but somebody could,so I could understand if how I do it became common knowledge, how it could ruin the game... at the same time, we play the game we want to, if people don't want to know how to exploit something, they won't.

Its a known bug with pre patched version of the game so there is nothing wrong with revealing how its done Sadly it wont work for many that have patched the game but thanks for providing different tactics for people, keep up the good work

I remember seeing this in the bugs forum a while back, basically copying the AI's tactic from custom views and seeing what they set all the sliders to.

I did notice also that the AI regularly changed there approach to most matches.

For me though i honestly think the best way to create a great tactic is through the wizard, quite simply the best tool on FM for me.

I did notice also that the AI regularly changed there approach to most matches.

For me though i honestly think the best way to create a great tactic is through the wizard, quite simply the best tool on FM for me.

Yes it is if you have time to adjust your tactics, research like this gives you an insight and can point you in the right direction

For me though i honestly think the best way to create a great tactic is through the wizard, quite simply the best tool on FM for me.

I would agree there (though my success is very limited).

I do find it a bit of a shame that the AI still works with sliders. It means we're not fighting with the same weapons here. I feel that if the cpu also used 'presets' like in the tactics creator, the game would be more theoretical; the game would function based on ideas rather than numbers.

I remember seeing this in the bugs forum a while back, basically copying the AI's tactic from custom views and seeing what they set all the sliders to.

I did notice also that the AI regularly changed there approach to most matches.

For me though i honestly think the best way to create a great tactic is through the wizard, quite simply the best tool on FM for me.

The bold part of the above quote is why this bug is not really useful. I've played games in which the AI manager changed instructions and sometimes formations at least 4 times during the match. Those hoping for a plug-n-play will be sorely disappointed.

Its a known bug with pre patched version of the game so there is nothing wrong with revealing how its done

So how do you do it then? I'm curious!

Remember it has to be a pre-patched game:

go to your tactics screen click on views ->custom - > manage views -> and create copies of views such as mentality

then go to club you want to emulate/copy and press on those copies of the views to view the setup

as a reminder it will only work for player instructions

Remember it has to be a pre-patched game:

go to your tactics screen click on views ->custom - > manage views -> and create copies of views such as mentality

then go to club you want to emulate/copy and press on those copies of the views to view the setup

as a reminder it will only work for player instructions

Interesting! Thanks.

While I'm curious about how the AI opposition managers utilise the TC etc., I'm not sure that I actually have the energy to do all of that!

Interesting! Thanks.

While I'm curious about how the AI opposition managers utilise the TC etc., I'm not sure that I actually have the energy to do all of that!

I only looked at it briefly, due to lack of time and game being unplayable before the patch

Few things i remember was 4-1-2-2-1 (451) formation the AI would adjust the wingers. If facing a low reputation team and odds being in their favor the AI would stretch the game play by having 2 out and out attacking wingers

When facing tougher opposition one of the winger would be changed to inside forward of def winger. Def winger being particularly useful in that he holds the ball up to allow the lone st to get into space

Low reputation teams going against bigger sides would start of with contain strategy and slowly increase it based on the result if need be.

Assuming CapEm has enough time to provide several tactics it could help us find a reasonable pattern of setting up our tactics

Interesting observations there Abramovic.

right the actual man utd tactic it is what the ai uses then within the game,but how will it work against the ai throughout a season?will the ai figure it out fast as it is what it uses or will it blitz the ai,may do some testing when i break up from work next week

barca in fm play nothing like they do in real life....

I wouldn't mind seeing real madrid's....

This can be good, thanks.

Ok guys, sorry I've been inactive recently.

First off, the instructions Abramovich wrote on how to do this is correct, although my game is fully patched with 11.2 and I'am still able to make copies of mentality, passing style, etc and view AI tactics with very few issues.

Second, my initial idea about AI tactics being complex and heavily altered, may have been incorrect and the AI actually uses base tactics that we ourselves can create with the tactics creator. When I first copied the Arsenal tactic, I kept the same roles I had for my 4-5-1 and therefore had to tweak and adjust. Since then I've copied the Barca, Real Madrid tactic, and re-copied the Arsenal tactic. The Arsenal tactic and Barca tactic are almost completely identical. Both are very fluid, attacking formations, and with the correct roles, there is no tweaking needed. The only difference between the two formations is that the DCr plays as a Ball Playing Defender in the Arsenal tactic where as Barca plays with two standard Central Defenders. The only other difference is in the Arsenal tactic, the MCl plays as an attacking Central Midfielder and in the Barca tactic the MCl plays as a Support Box to Box midfielder. Both MCr play as Support Advanced Midfielders roles and the rest of the tactic plays the same. Actually there is one other small change, Arsenal only has 3 free roam players while Barca has 4.

Barca AI 4-5-1

http://www.filefront.com/17667262/Actual_Barca-No Tweak.tac

Arsenal AI 4-5-1

http://www.filefront.com/17667272/Actual_Arsenal-No Tweak.tac

Real Madrid 4-2-3-1

http://www.filefront.com/17667280/Actual_Real Madrid-No Tweak.tac

Currently I'm reworking the Man Utd Tactic, but cannot seem to fit the AI tactic into the base tactics that the Tactic Creator gives me, which leads me to believe there tactic is tweaked from the base...so I'll be continuing to work on that as well.

Now the one thing that remains a mystery is if tempo, dline, etc are tweaked by the cpu. I'll try and upload a screen pic that can be used in the debate with dline and width, a bit later.

Once I can rework the Man Utd tactic, I'll upload some more, but to give a quick little insight on some other teams... Chelsea play Fluid/Control (not much of a surprise) and most lower league teams play a Very Rigid/Defensive or Counter style (go figure)

- Cap

PS. Since switching to AI tactics, and using the appropriate starting philosophy's rather than using my plug and play tactics, I've gone unbeaten in the first 7 games... could be due to my squad, but it might say something about heavily altered tactics.

Ok guys, Finally able to fit Man Utd's AI tactic into the proper style and roles.

http://www.filefront.com/17667573/Actual_Man Utd-No Tweak.tac

Correct me if im wrong, but the information you are able to get is way to restricted to even be close recreating the ai tactics?

Even so, I appreciate you hard work Capem. Keep it up!

akjonnoy - I'd have to disagree to a point with what you say about being "too restricted that we can't even come close to recreating the AI tactics", as I think that your exaggerating a bit. True, I agree we are restricted though in some aspects, like I can't tell you exactly what the AI sets their tempo at, or their D-line, so yes you're correct in that assumption. BUT, my findings might also debunk some of the myths like I first had, that the AI had these ludicrous slider settings that would be impossible to ever figure out and that the AI could super tweak tactics, when I think I've found that isn't the case at all, but the AI plays with the same basic base tactics we can create. And I've found in large part, exactly how the AI play.

So lets make an assumption - IF the AI sets a basic philosophy, and chooses a starting strategy, and makes no further tweaks which is what I've now found, then should we not assume that the AI doesn't further tweak the Tempo, and Dline, sliders and leaves them at their default setting as well? Why would the AI tweak one slider outside of the defaults, and not the others? To play devils advocate against my own idea, maybe Dline and Tempo are the ONLY sliders that AI managers tweak outside the default, and that is what separates the Arsenals from the Barcelona's.

Now I'm not saying that the AI doesn't tweak anything either. I'll assume that the AI can make the same shouts and touchline instructions as a human manager can, but rather than the AI making a single notch here and a notch there adjustment and super tweaking to combat a human players tactic, I'd assume the AI plays under the same rules and conditions that our shouts/instructions do.

So all in all, I'd say we have a very good idea how the AI plays, and we have all seen how dominate a team like Barca is in FM or maybe we've got "that team" who we just can't beat, now maybe you can find out why, based on their tactics. Going forward, I'm sure there are some tactical genius' in the community that could take these tactics, and fill in the holes to make them even stronger, which I'm sure someone has already done based on the simple fact that these AI tactics, aren't that complex.

Anyways, just my two cents.

Is it possible to post screenshots of the tactics for each position?

I would assume that after selecting the general strategies (philosophy and mentality) and the playing style ( passing, creative freedom, closing down etc...) to get the roles to have the correct settings I would assume that the D-line, width and tempo are unchanged, for simplicities sake.

Hey CapEm, any chance you could load up an "actual' Everton. It would be interesting to have a look at. cheers

Here ya go telV7

http://www.filefront.com/17688508/Actual_Everton.tac

This one actually deviated from my findings a bit. Even with everyone with the correct roles, team settings, and playing style, the AMC and MCl had to be tweaked slightly. Both were tweaked 1 notch lower on creative freedom, and the AMC had to be tweaked a notch lower on mentality. Otherwise, everything else fits perfect.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone been playing with any of the AI tactics?

I have been playing with the Arsenal tactic, with the DC changed to a central defender. While surprisingly I've conceded the second least amount of goals, I've also had a hard time scoring... could be due to the fact I've lost Torres for 3 months and Meireles who was leading the league in assists, and rating till he got injured for 6 weeks, and rattled off a string of draws. Otherwise, coming up to the middle of December playing with the Arsenal AI tactic, I've only lost one game, and sit second in the league.

Cheers mate much appreciated. I will be interested to see how it plays out. I am currently playing the first match of the season using the Man u no tweak, tried both the arsenal and barca. The manu is quite nice, plays some good football.

One thing I have noticed is that you don't seem to be able to modify the set piece routines, not sure whether that is the same for you or not.

but thanks again for the Everton tac

CapEm - great work and it spaked my curiosity to have a look, so I fired up a new game in the Spanish division and then did a holiday until Barcelona had played a league game (I added myself in as some lowly team).

On my game however Barcelona play a 4-1-4-1

Philosphy Very Fluid

Starting Strategy Attacking

Passing Style Default

Creative Freedom More Expressive

Closing Down Default

Tackling More Cautious

Marking Default

Crossing Default

Roaming Default

GK Goalkeeper Defend

RB Full Back Auto

DCR Central Defender Defend

DCL Central Defender Defend

LB Full Back Auto

DMC Defensive Midfielder Defend

RM Winger Attack

MCR Central Midfielder Auto

MCL Deep Lying Playmaker Support

LM Winger Attack

STC Advanced Forward Attack

All the settings fit into roles - this is the same for Arsenal (different formation and roles though). However Arsenal on my game do not play with Ball Playing Centre Backs and just normal Centre Backs

Just a thought. You should probably put the manager's name next to the tactic because it seems that the AI manager brings his own tactics to each team.

How do you extract the computer tactics? Do you use the pkm to do it? Because bayern just got thrashed 7-2 on my game by wolfsburg and i can never beat them!

Hi Capem,

Can you tell me how you do that to pull the AI tactics from their most recent match and how to recreate the tactics the AI uses to create my own tactic.

I am very eager to know you do that.

Greetz Jurgen

Would like to know Steve Bruces Sunderland, and possibly Martin Oneills tactic with Aston Villa.. Campbell - Bent / Delfouneso - Agbonlahor is the most intresting, would like to know the settings they use on the strikers..

has anyone played games using these tactics and do they work well

and do you take the AI tactics from the new 11.2.1 patch??

thanks in advance dude

Hi Capem,

Can you tell me how you do that to pull the AI tactics from their most recent match and how to recreate the tactics the AI uses to create my own tactic.

I am very eager to know you do that.

Greetz Jurgen

It is explained in post 22:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/245157-The-Real-Arsenal-(SI-version)?p=6283085&viewfull=1#post6283085

But it doesn't have to be pre-patched.

CAPEM you are a true genius and i think you made have just made history i am in a state of shock at what i am seen please can you do the Brazil tactic the 4.2.2.2 sao paulo use a 4,2,2,2 formation i have always wanted to now how the AI make that tactic work so I'm begging you please can you

Lucatonix thank you. i have just recreated the formation Leverkusen are using at the moment (442 diamond).

I don't know if anyone has ever played a German league before, but Leverkusen always dominate on my games and I wanted to see if could overachieve with my Hoffenheim team.

I'd very much like to see a Real Madrid tactic, because José Mourinho just doesn't seem to lose much, if at all, on this game.

I'd very much like to see a Real Madrid tactic, because José Mourinho just doesn't seem to lose much, if at all, on this game.

he has already posted it mate scroll up a bit:thup:

Bayern Munchen please:thup: