Regens with Unusual natural positions for their ability...

So after getting the board to finally invest in youth recruitment and facilities I have finally gotten a group of half decent youngsters. The best of which is fairly decent:

Can anyone guess what his singular natural position is from that? It seemed that on previous versions that the natural position was something that actually made some kind of sense to the player, but this time around I'm getting some odd players. I have a centrehalf who would make the best left winger in the youth team (as far as I'm concerned) and now I'm retraining this kid to get him into a position that he'll be actually useful in.

So... Can anyone guess the position that he apparently is, and the position I'm going to retrain him to?

When you put it like that, I guess he's a central defender?

More for GD mate.

When you put it like that, I guess he's a central defender?

...and I hope you train him as a winger

i would say he has come in as a defender, should be a winger tho.

good to see that the country typing for regens is accurate

he's english and has fantastic physicals, but naff at technicals

Position: DC

Retrained: AMR/L

It happens a lot that when younger players don't know their best positions nor do the people coaching them. If at school hes put in defence by his school teacher because at 10/11 he's bigger than other lads he then goes to the academy as a defender, which leads to him plying his trade as a defender whilst getting older becoming faster and better with his feet. Alan Smith came through as a forward but is now widely regarded as a CM, Dion Dublin another example. Whilst not famous an example I actually know of from my own life is Ryan Shotton (came through Stokes academy) was always a forward for his school team and largely considered such when first joining up with the academy, yet now he's registered in the first team as a CB and RB. He still has striker as a potential position listed in the game, looking at his stats you'd never use him as such though.

Nah... Defensive Midfielder. Not the worst one I've seen, but the most obvious for which position he should be. I've gotten him training to play on the right now and I've thrown him in the deep end. He's played two matches now and scored to become the youngest premier league goalscorer.

What's with all the strikers who can't finish in this version though?

What's with all the strikers who can't finish in this version though?

Funny you should say that- As soon as I saw "Finishing 5" I was certain he'd be a Striker!

It's being discussed in another thread which I can't be bothered finding. There is definitely a real issue, particularly with the 'average' players, whereby the key attributes for their position are terribly under-par. Finishing rarely >10 for strikers; Passing seems ok but Creativity struggles to get past 8 or 9; and countless defenders with appalling Marking. In fact, I've just signed a young Argentine DC because he was the only youngster within my budget with decent finishing! (needless to say, his tackling and marking are <6)

Yep, I've seen several DMs/CMs like that. I would guess that pace and acceleration has been set as a key attribute for the position, which is a little odd. It's certainly useful for the position, but I don't think it's vital, and it means you get some strange newgens.

I have one 18 year old DM who I recently signed who has 20 acceleration and 19 pace, corners and crossing, but 8 for passing and 7 for positioning. Like you, I'm retraining him to the right wing.

I also had one striker come through my youth system with a decent PA, but one for Finishing. That's right, 1! Luckily he's also Accomplished at AMR.

ive decided for the first time ever to download FMRTE just for this reason, any regen with stupid stats like that i will just adjust, and not just players i sign any youngster who has glaringly obviously stupid stats otherwise the game will end up with very few players actually good at their position.

It happens a lot that when younger players don't know their best positions nor do the people coaching them. If at school hes put in defence by his school teacher because at 10/11 he's bigger than other lads he then goes to the academy as a defender, which leads to him plying his trade as a defender whilst getting older becoming faster and better with his feet. Alan Smith came through as a forward but is now widely regarded as a CM, Dion Dublin another example. Whilst not famous an example I actually know of from my own life is Ryan Shotton (came through Stokes academy) was always a forward for his school team and largely considered such when first joining up with the academy, yet now he's registered in the first team as a CB and RB. He still has striker as a potential position listed in the game, looking at his stats you'd never use him as such though.

Both the original post and this point to an obvious flaw in the 'position' training system. It is not as if we are born with an innate position on the football pitch and its only if you are mentally versatile you can ever become natural in other positions - However, thats the way it is in the game.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z41/Megafan05/OscarGonzales.png

Worse than a DMC, hes a CB with positioning of 8. Still might develop into a reasonable player due to the fact his pace is so high! With a decent passing stat as well I may still make a ball-playing CB out of him.

Here's a bit of fun...

Which one is the striker?

^^^The Spanish dude.

if you think a score of under 10 for finishing is unrealistic for a striker, try managing outside the big leagues.

at a BSP club you would be lucky to find someone with 8.

don't forget, these are youngsters who will improve.

^^^The Spanish dude.

Do we have any more guesses before I reveal which one?

I've been thinking about why people are coming out with this line all the time and I think I now know why. This year, when we've implemented the newgen templates, it now allows for different kind of newgens to appear on the same position based on the kind of real players there are in the DB. Whereas in previous FM's all newgens got their attributes mainly set based on the attribute weights for their position. Naturally this meant that all newgens for the same position ended up quite similar to each other with little variation or different steretypes instead of just one mold. This means that in previous FM's pretty much all strikers had good finishing (because the attribute is highly weighed for the position), leading to users to expect the same this year as well.

Again, if you look at the real players in the DB and do a data comparison against the newgens, there is a very similar percentage of newgen strikers with lower than "ideal" finishing for their CA as there are real strikers in the DB with similar finishing attribute.

So if you have been used to having all newgens strikers coming through with high finishing, then naturally now that the spread of the attributes for any particular position is more varied (just like in the DB) it seems drastically different.

Interesting idea... Whilst this may make some kind of logical sense from the diverse regen point of view there are other issues that come into play in such cases. You say that the weightings are now more varied based on the types of players in the database. However the way the database is made may lead to bias in values for more famous players leading to these actual distributions being warped. Not only that but one may get the kind of abilities that one would expect for a Conference side striker and have that kind of player "scaled up" if you will, to that of a player with the CA of a premier league player. In such a case this would lead to unrealistic is possibly useless strikers. However, that is just a thought on possible problems and I have seen other young strikers which can finish (I signed both of them for my side).

The other issue mentioned here is that players are for the most part not set on a position when they are 16. It's not as though: "BAM YOU'RE 16! That's it, you're a midfielder forever now". Especially in this case I hope that the player will become "natural" in wide positions and just reach a level that I could retrain a 25+ year old to. We'll see though.

if you think a score of under 10 for finishing is unrealistic for a striker, try managing outside the big leagues.

at a BSP club you would be lucky to find someone with 8.

don't forget, these are youngsters who will improve.

I've actually played a team up the leagues once or twice. My least successful was my first attempt with Braintree... My most recent was Ilkeston who I managed to get to the Premier League before I ran out of time to play the game. What a difference a striker who had finishing over 10 could make.

I understand that there should be variations in the "prime" attributes for the different positions but is this tailored for different levels of PA?

I.e. High PA strikers should have decent finishing regardless of the template used.

Problem I see is that it doesn't make sense for high PA newgens to have crappy finishing when in the original database decent finishing is usually accompanied by average to high PA.

So while on the aggregate level finishing of newgens can match that of the original database, the distribution should be skewed such that high PA strikers should have a naturally high finishing.

I thought CM after opening the topic. Hes only really good at set pieces. And other than that, all his weaknesses are fairly evenly distributed. I.E. He can't finish, tackle or dribble. So I thought CM.

I understand that there should be variations in the "prime" attributes for the different positions but is this tailored for different levels of PA?

I.e. High PA strikers should have decent finishing regardless of the template used.

Problem I see is that it doesn't make sense for high PA newgens to have crappy finishing when in the original database decent finishing is usually accompanied by average to high PA.

So while on the aggregate level finishing of newgens can match that of the original database, the distribution should be skewed such that high PA strikers should have a naturally high finishing.

but it isnt the case in real life though, or in the case of real players at the start of the game. there are plenty of strikers in the game with low finishing

I've been thinking about why people are coming out with this line all the time and I think I now know why. This year, when we've implemented the newgen templates, it now allows for different kind of newgens to appear on the same position based on the kind of real players there are in the DB. Whereas in previous FM's all newgens got their attributes mainly set based on the attribute weights for their position. Naturally this meant that all newgens for the same position ended up quite similar to each other with little variation or different steretypes instead of just one mold. This means that in previous FM's pretty much all strikers had good finishing (because the attribute is highly weighed for the position), leading to users to expect the same this year as well.

Again, if you look at the real players in the DB and do a data comparison against the newgens, there is a very similar percentage of newgen strikers with lower than "ideal" finishing for their CA as there are real strikers in the DB with similar finishing attribute.

So if you have been used to having all newgens strikers coming through with high finishing, then naturally now that the spread of the attributes for any particular position is more varied (just like in the DB) it seems drastically different.

i see what your saying but i think what is annoying people is if you look at the big teams at the moment, all of the strikers likely to get a game have a good level of finishing, usually about 13ish, however after 5-6 seasons young strikers in top teams have finishing below 10, i do get that not every striker will have top finishing, but even your deep lying forwards will have a decent finishing stat in the original database, in this game they dont seem to have that, again with full backs, there are some in bigger teams maybe not that great at tackling or positioning, but its the extreme low level of these stats thats worrying, even if you work hard with them on this particular attribute it is very hard to take a stat of 5 or 6 and get it anything above a double figure bracket. I also get that maybe players will not always be suited to the position they come into the game as, we can spend all the seasons retraining them to be what we deem as right but the AI teams will not, they will play them as per their natural original positions and thus the the game ends up with a lot of players weak for their position in vital stats in the game, how this affects the stats the seasons i obviously dont know but in terms of first impressions it seems the footballing world has began to forget about full backs tackling or center backs being in the right position.

And yeah, this template thing sounds pretty poorly planned.

Seems like they whack any PA onto any template. When IRL, it wouldn't work like that at all.

It's not as if a 29 year old with 11 finishing, started off with 7 and had to improve. He was always crap, and just didn't improve.

I think most regens should start off much closer to their PA in terms of physical and technical. I think the main thing time wouldd improve on by far is mentals and consistency and important matches. Most young kids are as technically andd physically good as they ever will be at 19.

I think the template idea is awesome, would be cool to see some variation to players

I think most regens should start off much closer to their PA in terms of physical and technical. I think the main thing time wouldd improve on by far is mentals and consistency and important matches. Most young kids are as technically andd physically good as they ever will be at 19.

I disagree. If you look beyond the biggest stars in football, young footballers do not have the same technique as 27-31 year old players. And maybe they are more agile and quick, but youngsters definitely have poorer 'strength' than older ones. However, I agree that the most important attributes to change over the years are the mental ones, and what sets the good footballers apart from the ones that don't meet their abilities is the knowledge and experience about how to apply their skills.

I believe the mental attributes of football players increase vastly during the years, and that these attributes often defines whether a player 'makes it' or not. However I also think that other aspects of the good footballers increase during the years, but these aspects mostly increase BECAUSE the player is cut out for it (mental attributes).

I don't like the fixed PA system much as I find it completely unrealistic, and would prefer a system where mental stats, match experiences, club level, major injuries, international caps etc. defined how well the player progressed, instead of a fixed PA. Maybe that is a completely different discussion, but I hope to play that kind of football manager when I am sitting at my retirement home :-)

If the template thing is working right, then there must be a lot of bizarre players in the original DB that I'm not aware of. Like most others here, I've seen lots and lots of regen strikers who are good at everything but useless at finishing, a lot of goalkeepers with rubbish technical stats but brilliant mental and physical, and I've even had a bizarre case of a left-back who was rubbish at tackling but brilliant in everything you'd want in a striker - finishing, composure, off the ball, jumping, pace, etc. Tried retraining him as a striker but he couldn't go past "ineffectual" before his loan contract ended and he returned to his main club... he'll no doubt be wasted by the AI as a left-back for his whole career.

The template idea is nice, but I think it's bugged/unbalanced somewhere, really. It's not generating players similar to the ones in the original DB.

I would add at this point that fixed PA is something that is realistic in that some players really do simply have more potential than others. Everything that Reffi mentioned already does happen, except it has a limiting step. PA should be there, otherwise this would just become some RPG. Train your favourite players into the best every. Something like FIFA 2009 manager mode.

Also Reffi, Diego (the Spanish Guy) is a young defender that I signed. Jimmy Day (the other one) is a young striker at Chelsea that my scout came back with rave reviews about. I thought it was a good confusing one as Diego is pretty much as good of a striker as Day is. Actually, probably better. Anyhow I've found a young striker though who's more or less exactly what I was looking for now though.

So young strikers who can finish do exist.

I have another youngster who's only defining attribute is his finishing too.

but it isnt the case in real life though, or in the case of real players at the start of the game. there are plenty of strikers in the game with low finishing

That's not the point though.

I'm saying that strikers with low finishing tend to have low CA/PA in the original database

whereas for newgens this is not necessarily the case.

The templates do not work on absolutes but are always relative to the current ability of the player. So every time a template is applied, the attributes are scaled to match the starting ability of the player. It would make no sense linking attribute levels straight to PA, since that would basically rule out any need for scouting (as you could just filter for young players with the highest attributes to pinpoint the highest PA players). The higher PA players are naturally more likely to start off with a higher CA, so they are also thus likely to start off with better attributes as well.

The way the templates are used, is that two players can use the same template but have vastly different CA's which will result naturally in the attribute levels being higher for the player with the higher CA, while the pattern of the attributes (ie. which areas the players is good at in relation to his overall level) will still look similar.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess it's just unintuitive for us to see low finishing attribute to a high PA striker newgen. Maybe tweak it such that the higher CA is reflected in the finishing attribute?

Personally I don't see how it would rule out scouting as you can still have the case that low PA strikers have high finishing attributes but low in everything else.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess it's just unintuitive for us to see low finishing attribute to a high PA striker newgen. Maybe tweak it such that the higher CA is reflected in the finishing attribute?

Personally I don't see how it would rule out scouting as you can still have the case that low PA strikers have high finishing attributes but low in everything else.

i think thats exactly it, players with a higher PA should surely have a decent level of stats for their position already, not perfect or finished but just a bit better and not missing glaring stats, how can they possible fufill their potential, say as a left back if their tackling starts off at 6, no matter how hard you work at it they will only get to an average level at the very best.

The game will generate world class players but it seems it will also generate a lot of useless players, who's PA is masking the fact they are missing vital stats.

I would add at this point that fixed PA is something that is realistic in that some players really do simply have more potential than others. Everything that Reffi mentioned already does happen, except it has a limiting step. PA should be there, otherwise this would just become some RPG. Train your favourite players into the best every. Something like FIFA 2009 manager mode.

Also Reffi, Diego (the Spanish Guy) is a young defender that I signed. Jimmy Day (the other one) is a young striker at Chelsea that my scout came back with rave reviews about. I thought it was a good confusing one as Diego is pretty much as good of a striker as Day is. Actually, probably better. Anyhow I've found a young striker though who's more or less exactly what I was looking for now though.

So young strikers who can finish do exist.

I have another youngster who's only defining attribute is his finishing too.

From what I've seen the problem lies not with regens who come in from unactive league with a already high CA, but with regens in the active leagues. Try coping with only using domestic players and you'll soon find it's almost impossible. National teams like Italy, Spain, England, Germany and France (who happens to be the league I have active) are after 6 seasons a shadow of their former self, while nations like Turkey, Holland, Brazil and Argentina have plenty of great players that doesn't lack skills in key areas.

Currently the PA itself may be fixed, but all the different factors you listed affect how the player will progress and gain CA and attributes. So all these factors together will define how close to their PA the player will end up reaching

Thanks for the reply, and I know that these things are factored in CA. I just don't believe that players are born with a fixed talent that can either be reached or not depending on these factors. Instead I believe that these factors act together and that talent is just one of the things that defines the player.

If you take a player almost without talent but fantastic mental attributes and he trains with Chelsea for 5 years he will probably not become a Premier league player, but could definitely rise above what FM have defined as PA (low becuase of the low talent). I don't believe that a 16 year old footballer is entirely dependent on an innate talent, but that this is more fluid and that the talent can be nurtured well or not so well, and it is this nurturing that defines CA, and that in reality there is no PA. Of course we shouldn't be able to make everyone CA 200 players, but this shouldn't be because of a fixed PA.

Given the right mental attributes and right training I think most people could become great footballers.

I would add at this point that fixed PA is something that is realistic in that some players really do simply have more potential than others. Everything that Reffi mentioned already does happen, except it has a limiting step. PA should be there, otherwise this would just become some RPG. Train your favourite players into the best every. Something like FIFA 2009 manager mode.

Instead of PA (=talent) you could factor talent as one of the things in CA, and have mental attributes set the speed of how fast the player is able to progress (determination, decisions etc.). That way a player player with fantastic mental attributes but very low talent would never become world class, but could definitely rise above some fixed PA 80 level.

In essence I just find the fixed cap on talent entirely unrealistic, although I acknowledge it should be a factor in determining how far a player could progress.

All players would at some point reach a level where only the best nurturing of their talent could make them progress, and some would progress very slow.

As at thought experiment pick any youngish rubbish player you know from your local team and put him in the Chelsea squad and let him play week after week. He would definitely progress as a player and not be stopped in his progress by some innate talent.

Then switch back to reality - this kid is never going to make it in football, because no one wants to waste ressources on making him a half decent footballer, although it is entirely possible.

If the fixed PA is removed it would make finding youngsters and nurturing them much more realistic and fun.

That being said finding youngsters and trying to improve them is what I enjoy the most.

Also Reffi, Diego (the Spanish Guy) is a young defender that I signed. Jimmy Day (the other one) is a young striker at Chelsea that my scout came back with rave reviews about. I thought it was a good confusing one as Diego is pretty much as good of a striker as Day is. Actually, probably better. Anyhow I've found a young striker though who's more or less exactly what I was looking for now though.

I had a sneaky feeling it was a trick question :-)

Can I suggest that key attributes have a floor. A lowest possible value that is tied to PA.

For example a player is created as a striker type poacher, PA 150 then his finishing could range between 7-20 but could never be 6 or bellow.

For PA 100, 6-20 etc

You would have to be careful selecting what the key attributes will be, restricting it to one or two for each position or you risk the newgens becoming too uniform.

And there might be problems with players with high PA low CA always becoming great in the key stats as they fulfil their PA.

Perhaps the solution is that a majority of players have key attribute floors but a minority maybe 10% don’t.

Does the CPU do a good job of position training? I don't know the answer myself, but it's a serious advantage for the player if that English guy in the first post is played as a CB instead of an RM or an RB.