Should FM be tested more before its available to buy ???

Seems to me every year theres more new features added to the game to make it better, but the most annoying thing for me is how many little bugs in the game that seem to be missed every year.

I feel if less time was spent thinking of new features and ideas to make it better and more time on testing to make sure its as bug free as possible would make the game alot more enjoyable

So should the demo be made available at least 1 month before the full game is sold or should the full version date be put back to later in the year.

Or are people happy to play the game as it is and wait for the next patch to fix the problems??

Even if it was tested more there still be bugs thats how it is im afraid, people wont admit it but there be more moaning if game was released later

As long as there is nothing that's completely unbearable, I'd play the game in its current state as I am with FM11

The only way this would truly work is to open up restriced public beta testing as there are so many different PC permitations out there. Lets face it there will always be bugs in any software, however I do believe the current build of FM is more than playable.

But like i said are they spending more time adding new features rather than actually fixing the bugs that are in the game.

The more new features that keep being added to the game seem to create even more issues on top of the other problems

Set Pieces is something that annoys me.

Every time i make a change to my starting 11 i then have to check every set piece for each sub brought on.Changing long shots and changing where the player positions himself etc etc

and now i read peoples set pieces are changing every few games

Meh, they're a business too. They need to release a product every year, and they need new features to market it. That's non-negotiable. New features will bring bugs, and likely knock-on effects, which is the nature of the beast.

That being said, for something like the defending in the match engine to be in its current state this far along the line is unforgivable. That's not a cosmetic feature, that's a fundamental flaw.

But like i said are they spending more time adding new features rather than actually fixing the bugs that are in the game.

The more new features that keep being added to the game seem to create even more issues on top of the other problems

Set Pieces is something that annoys me.

Every time i make a change to my starting 11 i then have to check every set piece for each sub brought on.Changing long shots and changing where the player positions himself etc etc

and now i read peoples set pieces are changing every few games

Well of course they try fix existing bugs but its not easy and if they did't add new features people would moan the games same every year its a hard thing to balance

Things like adding Twitter and YouTube to me is just a waste of time.

Does it improve the game.Not at all.

How many different views do we now have while being able to watch the game??? Are they all necessary???

Things like adding Twitter and YouTube to me is just a waste of time.

Does it improve the game.Not at all.

How many different views do we now have while being able to watch the game??? Are they all necessary???

People use most of the views, and IMO the ones added recently are the best, so yes, they are necessary.

The game is tested for months beforehand. SI have to finish adding the new features, and once they do that, they spend months working on bugs. There is already loads of time dedicated to bug fixing and making the game as polished as possible.

But do people use most of the views seriously??

I just think that putting the demo out there 2 weeks before the full game isnt long enough. Yes people will moan they have to wait longer but they will still buy it. Will the amount of people that play the game (and its a hell of alot of people) the best people to test it are the customers.

I mean a 2 week gap for customers to test the demo and for those people to then come on here and tell SI whats wrong is a very short space of time.

But do people use most of the views seriously??

I just think that putting the demo out there 2 weeks before the full game isnt long enough. Yes people will moan they have to wait longer but they will still buy it. Will the amount of people that play the game (and its a hell of alot of people) the best people to test it are the customers.

I mean a 2 week gap for customers to test the demo and for those people to then come on here and tell SI whats wrong is a very short space of time.

The demo is the gold version though so nothing you find in demo would be fixed in full version without a patch

But do people use most of the views seriously??

I just think that putting the demo out there 2 weeks before the full game isnt long enough. Yes people will moan they have to wait longer but they will still buy it. Will the amount of people that play the game (and its a hell of alot of people) the best people to test it are the customers.

I mean a 2 week gap for customers to test the demo and for those people to then come on here and tell SI whats wrong is a very short space of time.

The demo is a time limited full version and has nothing to do with chasing bugs as releasing the demo usually coincides with the game going gold, so your view here is slightly flawed. I do change from different views to give a bit of variety. Its going to happen that people will have problems because as I have said before the different amount of PC specs will throw up lots of different problems.

Ok well with the demo being available for longer than 2 weeks will then give SI even more information about bugs to add to the patch

Release the game on a two year cycle, but have a pay-for £10 update in the "middle year" to update the entire game. Remove the player information editor if they have to to make this work.

Won't happen but that's the solution if you want a "good" FM on release day.

The other option, as a consumer, is to pretend October/November isn't the "real" release days, and simply buy the game every year in March when the game is actually "complete" - which is what I'm going to be doing. I'm buying FM12 in March 2012

People seem to treat major bugs the same as minor one's. I don't care what anyone says, older versions of FM were released with very few minor bugs and no major bugs at all. More recently FM is being released with an increasing number of major bugs that spoil gameplay and, in some cases, render it impossible. Something, somewhere IS wrong because the problem is getting worse every year, I honestly thought after last year FM2011 would be in a better state than this, but if anything there are more 'gamebreaking' bugs than FM2010.

I really hate having a go at the game because I certainly couldn't do any better and I think it has the potential to be the greatest PC series ever. However the poor state it's released in every year is making me feel like a beta tester for an unfinished piece of software.

im guessing the next patch wont be out until january. so thats another 5 weeks of moaning and putting up with annoying flaws in the game

and we have already had 1 patch to fix certain things already and still theres issues

and if things go the way Tubey feels when finally the game will be bug free in March then what does that say about the state of the game???

maybe its just me but like most things in life its the little annoyances that seem so simple to fix that bug me. i would rather have 30% less new features added and 30% more bugs fixed than vice versa

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i would rather have 30% less new features added and 30% more bugs fixed than vice versa

Exactly this!

Yes, of course it should be tested more.

This years version of FM has some glaringly bad and obvious bugs. Makes you feel a little bit ripped off that these were released with the game. There is no excuse for not spotting them, in fact they were spotted because you would have to be blind not to have seen them, which basically tells me they said sod it and released it anyway.

I've noticed computer games in general have gone seriously down hill in the last couple of years and people seem to be getting ripped off left right and center with some releases and SI/SEGA seem to be heading in that direction, they haven't got there yet, but the releases certainly aren't improving.

For the record, I've never had a problem with the releases until this version. I expect bugs but not some of the bugs I've seen in FM11.

I really hate having a go at the game because I certainly couldn't do any better and I think it has the potential to be the greatest PC series ever. However the poor state it's released in every year is making me feel like a beta tester for an unfinished piece of software.

EXACTLY!!!!

you wouldnt buy a Ferrari that had a Mini engine in would you??? and then spend months testing it to then come on here to tell the makers what was wrong???

how many other games do people sit there playing for months and then sit on here explaining whats right and whats wrong????

Theres all the hype year in year out that get people so excited to buy the new game only to yet again be let down at the end of it.

Your right it could be the greatest PC series ever but by trying to add so many new features its creating more problems.

i would sooner that the game came out a month later and there was less bugs in the process.

i dont think there is a need for new features in fm12, si just need to improve on the features already there and concentrate on making the game bug free

i would sooner that the game came out a month later and there was less bugs in the process.

i dont think there is a need for new features in fm12, si just need to improve on the features already there and concentrate on making the game bug free

and the 1st thing they will think about if that happened is.............................................

Will we make as much money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i would sooner that the game came out a month later and there was less bugs in the process.

i dont think there is a need for new features in fm12, Si just need to improve on the features already there and concentrate on making the game bug free

Have people got there head in the clouds or is it just me ??? the games never going to be bug free its impossible regardless of new features or not, as many people on here saying there not bothered about new features well think of the thousand that are,if there were to release fm 12 with no features there be uproar

I dont play any other games apart from ones on the Wii, so how many other big games that come out are as buggy as FM???

Im not expecting it to be 100% perfect but like i said its the small blatant bugs that even a blind man will see that seem to get missed.

Heres one for instance:

Whenever my game feels like it at certain times when i try to change tactics it refuses to let me tick these boxes

I am just happy SI Games are able to release a new game ever year and have to ability to patch it up and support the product. Despite the bugs it is still playable and enjoyable.

Could be worse, look at BGS and Championship Manager, thank god for Sega.

People seem to treat major bugs the same as minor one's. I don't care what anyone says, older versions of FM were released with very few minor bugs and no major bugs at all.

Rubbish. In an early CM, you could lower the value of an accepted transfer bid to zero, allowing you to sign players for free. In CM1, because there were only English clubs, Diego Maradona was available for free! Furthermore, the MEs were riddled with bugs, but we didn't care because we couldn't see them.

It's inevitable that there are going to be more bugs in more complex games, but the ones these days are nothing compared to those in early CMs.

Have people got there head in the clouds or is it just me ??? the games never going to be bug free its impossible

This is what I'm talking about, nobody, not one person, expects the game to be bug free, I don't think I've read one thread that's asked for this. Please read what people are actually saying.

if there were to release fm 12 with no features there be uproar

I simply don't think this assumption is true. SI haven't always added new features every year and people haven't been in uproar. What has got people increasingly angry, however, is the number of MAJOR (not minor) bugs every year.

its released early as possible for £ purposes.. soon as its out you don't hear anything of SI .. even the fact there are massive bugs, they don't get touched until Dec/Jan

the game should be tested more, but the fact is the testers they employ simply play the game rather than actually test all the features

the game is unplayable for me for many many reasons, bug after bug after bug

the game should be tested more, but the fact is the testers they employ simply play the game rather than actually test all the features

Don't pretend to know about something you don't have a clue about. You know nothing about how testers act, so don't say they just play the game. It's also very low to pick on a group who are legally bound to not reply.

Don't pretend to know about something you don't have a clue about. You know nothing about how testers act, so don't say they just play the game. It's also very low to pick on a group who are legally bound to not reply.

Is this a way to speak to people who spend money on a product???

Explain things but theres no need to come across so aggressive

Rubbish. In an early CM, you could lower the value of an accepted transfer bid to zero, allowing you to sign players for free. In CM1, because there were only English clubs, Diego Maradona was available for free! Furthermore, the MEs were riddled with bugs, but we didn't care because we couldn't see them.

It's inevitable that there are going to be more bugs in more complex games, but the ones these days are nothing compared to those in early CMs.

I still have old (mid-nineties onwards) versions of FM/CM that I still load up fairly often and I simply don't agree with you. The two transfer bugs that you mentioned specifically are not major IMO (and I hope people read the word major) because they are both bugs that the human player can choose to exploit. The more glaring bugs in FM2011 aren't exploits they are game ruining for some, and affect everyone equally. I'll say again, this IMO only applies to the big bugs not the minor ones which most people, even those complaining on the forum, are generally ignoring because they know it happens.

Is this a way to speak to people who spend money on a product???

Explain things but theres no need to come across so aggressive

There is a need when someone who is consistently rude and abrasive decides to pick on testers, very unfairly. I suppose it's okay to say "it should be tested better", though even then it's unfair to single a group out who a) can't respond and b) he doesn't actually know are to blame. I think working to sort out a piece of software for no reward should get you praise, not criticism.

This is what I'm talking about, nobody, not one person, expects the game to be bug free, I don't think I've read one thread that's asked for this. Please read what people are actually saying.

I simply don't think this assumption is true. SI haven't always added new features every year and people haven't been in uproar. What has got people increasingly angry, however, is the number of MAJOR (not minor) bugs every year.

Name a year when something new as not been added how ever small a feature ??? and look at "dontask" post about 8 up could swear it says a bug free game ???

I still have old (mid-nineties onwards) versions of FM/CM that I still load up fairly often and I simply don't agree with you. The two transfer bugs that you mentioned specifically are not major IMO (and I hope people read the word major) because they are both bugs that the human player can choose to exploit. The more glaring bugs in FM2011 aren't exploits they are game ruining for some, and affect everyone equally. I'll say again, this IMO only applies to the big bugs not the minor ones which most people, even those complaining on the forum, are generally ignoring because they know it happens.

I'd say both those were "big bugs" tbh. Certainly in the case of all non-British-based players being free agents- how would you like it if Arsenal suddenly signed Messi on a free transfer just before your United team were about to play them?

What "big bugs" affect most people on here? I suppose there's the player interaction, but even then, it's a case of treading carefully.

Name a year when something new as not been added how ever small a feature ??? and look at "dontask" post about 8 up could swear it says a bug free game ???

CM01/02 was said by the developers at the time of release to have 'no new features' and was well received as almost bug free.

FM06 Was also described by the developers at the time as being 'essentially a data update of 05' allowing them to work on making as bug free a game as possible.

As for dontask, you'd have to ask him yourself but I suspect if you did he'd qualify his remark with 'as possible'.

Definitely. It's a bit shameful really.

God knows what they spend all year doing.

What "big bugs" affect most people on here? I suppose there's the player interaction, but even then, it's a case of treading carefully.

I don't really have the typing ability to debate with two people at the same time, so could I give you a gentle nudge to the bugs forum for your reply, plenty of reading in there.

Cheers.

Is this a way to speak to people who spend money on a product???

Explain things but theres no need to come across so aggressive

Is that the way to speak to a moderator who is giving his own free time to help others?

A) He did not speak agressively,

B) He responded to someone who was speaking out of his rear end (putting it mildly) and corrected him, politely.

It seems that all you want to do here is to come onto the forum and shout "the game is broken, all SI employees should be hanged for the crime of making me pay £35 for this game" and then complain when people respond in a sensible fashion and tell you and others where you have gone wrong.

Is that the way to speak to a moderator who is giving his own free time to help others?

A) He did not speak agressively,

B) He responded to someone who was speaking out of his rear end (putting it mildly) and corrected him, politely.

It seems that all you want to do here is to come onto the forum and shout "the game is broken, all SI employees should be hanged for the crime of making me pay £35 for this game" and then complain when people respond in a sensible fashion and tell you and others where you have gone wrong.

Oh come on, no ones saying we are being forced to buy it or want people hanged.

Isnt this forum here for people to complain as well as praise SI, or because of the job they do and as we are only the customer we are not allowed our opinion????

Just because hes a moderator doesnt make him any better than anyone else. Im not going to agree with him just because hes using his free time.Its his choice.

If my customer is not happy with the job ive done then i want to know about it. And if next time i need to spend longer to get the job done right then so be it.

Why would i sent out a job thats only 70% correct knowing full well i would get it back later to fix????

I dont play any other games apart from ones on the Wii, so how many other big games that come out are as buggy as FM???

Im not expecting it to be 100% perfect but like i said its the small blatant bugs that even a blind man will see that seem to get missed.

Heres one for instance:

Whenever my game feels like it at certain times when i try to change tactics it refuses to let me tick these boxes

And explain to me how something so simple to see could be missed???

If my customer is not happy with the job ive done then i want to know about it. And if next time i need to spend longer to get the job done right then so be it.

Why would i sent out a job thats only 70% correct knowing full well i would get it back later to fix????

Absolutely agree with this, a point I feel many apologists (not SI) miss.

And explain to me how something so simple to see could be missed???

Maybe it didn't show up in testing. Or maybe it did show up in testing, but nobody at SI's end could reproduce the bug in order to fix it.

im guessing the next patch wont be out until january. so thats another 5 weeks of moaning and putting up with annoying flaws in the game

and we have already had 1 patch to fix certain things already and still theres issues

and if things go the way Tubey feels when finally the game will be bug free in March then what does that say about the state of the game???

maybe its just me but like most things in life its the little annoyances that seem so simple to fix that bug me. i would rather have 30% less new features added and 30% more bugs fixed than vice versa

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Not saying it's ideal but there's two facts about the FM series.

A) The game is dictated by a release schedule due to a partnership with Sega and cost-covering measures. As such, the game will always be released yearly and well in time for Christmas.

B) The game is immensely detailed, and the level of developmental detail needed by SI means that a one year production period is not enough. Therefore, no matter what SI do or say, the retail version of the game will be bug-ridden and, yes, for the first 3 or so months after release you've basically bought a game in progres and you're all Beta testers.

Therefore, because you can't change the SI company model, your only two choices are to either cope with it, or in your own mind re-arrange the release date til March!

Maybe it didn't show up in testing. Or maybe it did show up in testing, but nobody at SI's end could reproduce the bug in order to fix it.

But i noticed it after playing the game for 20mins

Release the game on a two year cycle, but have a pay-for £10 update in the "middle year" to update the entire game. Remove the player information editor if they have to to make this work.

Won't happen but that's the solution if you want a "good" FM on release day.

The other option, as a consumer, is to pretend October/November isn't the "real" release days, and simply buy the game every year in March when the game is actually "complete" - which is what I'm going to be doing. I'm buying FM12 in March 2012

even if SI took 5 years making the next FM game their in-house testing team and their external beta testers would not be able to amass as much game time as the general public amasds in the first week of release, due to sheer numbers. surely by that logic the general public as a collective (and bear in mind there will be people here well educated in less popular leagues and will find issues that the testers may not recognise to be faults) would quickly find issues that SI and the testers have not been able to find, or have only found limited examples.

I still have old (mid-nineties onwards) versions of FM/CM that I still load up fairly often and I simply don't agree with you. The two transfer bugs that you mentioned specifically are not major IMO (and I hope people read the word major) because they are both bugs that the human player can choose to exploit. The more glaring bugs in FM2011 aren't exploits they are game ruining for some, and affect everyone equally. I'll say again, this IMO only applies to the big bugs not the minor ones which most people, even those complaining on the forum, are generally ignoring because they know it happens.

just out of curiosity are you playing the out of the box versions or are you playing the fully patched versions where the major issues have been fixed???

even if SI took 5 years making the next FM game their in-house testing team and their external beta testers would not be able to amass as much game time as the general public amasds in the first week of release, due to sheer numbers. surely by that logic the general public as a collective (and bear in mind there will be people here well educated in less popular leagues and will find issues that the testers may not recognise to be faults) would quickly find issues that SI and the testers have not been able to find, or have only found limited examples.

Of course, but the bugs that slip through would certainly not be "game breakers". I found three of the major bugs within a few hours of playing the game which, in all honesty, should have been picked up very quickly by even a small testing team. I don't know the exact testing procedure SI have but I have no doubts that a game developed over 18 months and tested for 6, with 4 months of Beta testing to the wider public with all major issues found to be fixed at least 1 month prior to release would result in an infinitely more stable game than we currently have.

Then like i said all along wouldnt it be better to let people play the demo for 1 month and any issues that are found, it then gives SI abit longer to fix things in the patch that would be available when the full versions sold??

Of course, but the bugs that slip through would certainly not be "game breakers". I found three of the major bugs within a few hours of playing the game which, in all honesty, should have been picked up very quickly by even a small testing team. I don't know the exact testing procedure SI have but I have no doubts that a game developed over 18 months and tested for 6, with 4 months of Beta testing to the wider public with all major issues found to be fixed at least 1 month prior to release would result in an infinitely more stable game than we currently have.

these issues may have been noticed by a small group of testers but the issue may not have reproduced on a large scale, or there may have been changes to the builds, meaning that some issues were partially fixed, then resurface on a later date, which could mean that this issue is not being looked at as it is deemed as fixed and testers are looking at other issues.

regarding the problems in selling players, there was an old discussion where players were being named, and Miles Jacobsen had valid arguments why each player sale was having issues, that they were over-reacting (players like huddlestone who were average players for mid level prem clubs, but his financial demands ruled these clubs out of the running, and the clubs that could afford his wages were looking for a better class of player) at a small scale these issues would not have looked as big, but once there are millions of people playing the games and a large number of posters in these threads agreed there was an issue it suddenly becomes more obvious that something needs to be changed

none of us know what is going on behind closed doors and we can only guess, what processes, but as good as a small group of testers may be, having millions of players play the game is always going to find more issues than however many people SI and Sega employ

these issues may have been noticed by a small group of testers but the issue may not have reproduced on a large scale, or there may have been changes to the builds, meaning that some issues were partially fixed, then resurface on a later date, which could mean that this issue is not being looked at as it is deemed as fixed and testers are looking at other issues.

regarding the problems in selling players, there was an old discussion where players were being named, and Miles Jacobsen had valid arguments why each player sale was having issues, that they were over-reacting (players like huddlestone who were average players for mid level prem clubs, but his financial demands ruled these clubs out of the running, and the clubs that could afford his wages were looking for a better class of player) at a small scale these issues would not have looked as big, but once there are millions of people playing the games and a large number of posters in these threads agreed there was an issue it suddenly becomes more obvious that something needs to be changed

none of us know what is going on behind closed doors and we can only guess, what processes, but as good as a small group of testers may be, having millions of players play the game is always going to find more issues than however many people SI and Sega employ

Fair enough.

I'd still say that a two year schedule would allow SI to release a Gold demo Beta to the wider public a lot earlier than they do would root out problems earlier and allow time to fix them - as it stands right now the game is just about finished in time (or so it appears) so there's literally no chance of correcting the faults.

But as I say it ain't going to happen as they literally have to release a game every year so it's pointless in many ways discussing it - therefore, just buy the game in March so you get a full year of "proper" gameplay out of the previous game.

And to be honest, Lionel Messi being transferred for £9m on one of my saves within 2 seasons is something even the blindest of testers should have picked up (I'm not saying that happens EVERY save, but I refuse to believe I'm the "one in a million" here!)

just out of curiosity are you playing the out of the box versions or are you playing the fully patched versions where the major issues have been fixed???

I'm playing 11.1.1, don't know about others.

Then like i said all along wouldnt it be better to let people play the demo for 1 month and any issues that are found, it then gives SI abit longer to fix things in the patch that would be available when the full versions sold??

totally agree with your posts, i know i wont be buying the game til the 3rd patch and cant see the harm in just releasing a data update so they can iron out the problems, after all the beauty of the game is the realism of it and all the bugs really spoil that