Is the FM series fast becoming 'The Sims - Football edition'

Am I the only person who feels that with every release of FM that the game is becoming less and less about football/winning games and more about everything else? Maybe it's me but what happened to building squads, searching for young players and you know actual football.

I spend more time trying to work out why my star striker is 'unhappy' or 'lacking confidence' than I do doing anything else. This along with the guessing game of press/agent interactions where I prey I can decipher the 'right thing to say' just so my entire team don't lose any kind of morale they have.

What's next for the FM manager series, I have come up with the following suggestions. I think it's time to move away from all this football rubbish and place more emphasis on morale/confidence and generally just playing Russel Grant or Mystic Meg. Here's my top suggestions:

1. I want the ability to talk to players about their marriage/girlfriends and children. I should be able to sit a player down on my sofa in my office and make him a cup of tea and just talk and get to know him. Maybe you can add another stat, call it 'Listening'. Of course all possible response need to be as vague as possible, for example:

2. Why not add the ability to park the players cars, kind of like a minigame. The better you park the car, the more confidence their morale will be for the next match!

3. Food/Drink. For every player at the club I want the ability to make them their own food. Each player could have a hidden attribute that dictates what type of food they like (Pasta/Fish/Chocolate etc). It will then be upto the manager to decide what to give them before each match. Of course you could talk to the players and get hints/tips from as to what they like.

The manager then chooses from a list of 87 different items, the correct choice will cause the players morale to shoot up but the wrong choice will see him depressed for the next 6 months and ask for a transfer.

4. Haircuts. Sadly a neglected aspect of the FM upto now, for a game that strives for realism, this is a disgrace. The manager should be able to cut each players hair (mini game potential!) and the result of which should effect not only how they play on the pitch but also their stats. For example you can shave your forwards hair to make them more aerodynamic and run faster, of course if he like his hair long then you need to decide what is best for the team.

Overall I feel that these changes would benefit the game far more than making changes to the ME, or fixing bugs etc. SI needs to concentrate on what players want, we all want to mirco manage everything, it should imo take a full week of sitting at your PC preparing your team for a match. This is the kind of realism that SI should be striving for!

Your a bit deluded if you think managers don't have unhappy players to deal with, and managers do have to think carefully about what they say in press conferences cause the media will spin it and that can disrupt a squad. Agents exist in real life...so they exist in the game too. This game is football MANAGER so why is it bad for SI to add things in that a real life manager would deal with?

Your a bit deluded if you think managers don't have unhappy players to deal with, and managers do have to think carefully about what they say in press conferences cause the media will spin it and that can disrupt a squad. Agents exist in real life...so they exist in the game too. This game is football MANAGER so why is it bad for SI to add things in that a real life manager would deal with?

It is bad because the subject matter is so deep that it is impossible to simulate with any kind of realism. Scientist have worked for decades on computer AI and are still nowhere near. The whole player interaction/morale system in FM is a joke, it's beyond belief that anyone can honestly say it's remotely realistic. IF SI want to go down that road then I suggest they add around a decades worth of work into the AI so they can properly simulate responses. The current system is AWFUL and has nothing to do with football, it's a joke and should not play such a large part in the game.

I am concerned that the older FM series becomes, it becomes more about playing SIMs with your players than about what made it such fun game to begin with.

so im guessing one of your main gripes is the player interaction, where one wrong word could upset someone? Take a look at a very recent real world case. Roy Hodgson criticised Glen Johnson, saying he needs to improve to stay in the team. Something you could do in FM. Now reports are circulating that it's really upset Johnson and he wants to leave in January. So the fact this happens in FM isn't realistic?

Four minutes before a fatuous fanboy attempt at real life comparisons. “OOhhh look it’s wealistic because…” Who had four minutes? Four minutes anybody?

This attempt at modelling real life interactions to solve personal issues never works. Perhaps the Sims have it sussed, but it’s what makes most games a nothing more than a brief dalliance before you gift it to the five year old next door. That allied to these infantile pseudo conversations we now have to put up with is the most off-putting FM development for ages. This is now not just for kids, it’s for girls. Little ones.

The OP is right. Cut this childish, girly garbage out and get back to what makes FM addictive for adults who like football, not for kids who like guessing games.

I would very much agree with the notion that they are less about just fundementally winning games, but I would expand on that and say they are now more about how you win games, and everything else that goes with it. Which is a good thing.

I think people often attribute Football Manager's expanding involvement of more aspects of the game as just to keep the game fresh. While that may be true in its own right, they expand because they make the game more involved, and, effectively, more realistic. Managing the team on matchday is just one part of football management. So is managing the morale and so is managing people.

It's been said many times on this forum, but if you just wanna "win games" then the latest versions of FM aren't for you. My mate can't stand how immersive they've become, he doesn't play anymore. He just wants to pick up and win matches. That's not what FM is about anymore. In fact, I can't remember it being like that for a long while

Four minutes before a fatuous fanboy attempt at real life comparisons. “OOhhh look it’s wealistic because…” Who had four minutes? Four minutes anybody?

Ha I'd love to be called a fanboy for what I just posted.

as much as i disagree with this thread, you cant help but laugh..funny

Love the OP, very tongue in cheek!

FWIW I think the additions in terms of press conferences and player interaction are definitely worth having, and IRL a manager cannot overlook the psychological aspect of motivating the players. They aren't implemented ideally, granted, but it is, after all, a game.

The way I look at it is like a book - on the surface it's just words on a page, but allow your imagination to extrapolate the ideas in the text and it's a lot more fun. In a press conference in FM11, if the press are asking me stupid things like "Do you think XXX deserved man of the match?" when we've had a game with dubious sendings off and horrific penalty calls, I use the little additional comment box to berate the imaginary journalist for asking the wrong questions. You'd look at it and say "It's bugged/rubbish."

Maybe if you'd like to enjoy the game more, you could look at it differently. The bugs and issues will still be there, but I don't notice them when I play.

Agree, sometimes it feels like youre in a Quiz show and if you get the wrong answer youre doomed in all eternity.

Send your assistant to press conferences, and never do the player interaction thing. Job done

Agree, sometimes it feels like youre in a Quiz show and if you get the wrong answer youre doomed in all eternity.

Has just reminded me (sorry for digression)- Does anyone remember Championship Manager Quiz?

Agree - I had doubts about this when it was announced. It is a bit silly - you can't see the body language or have face to face interaction with players, so how are you meant to know what to say to them? I think it is not so much the fact that players get unhappy which is the problem, it is that just by saying the wrong thing to them from a random selection of choices you can make them unhappy for years.

I would change it so that you have an ongoing man mangement strategy for different players. You would have a drop down box and choose "put arm around", "be strict" etc. If you notice a player getting unhappy then you can change your strategy.

Agree - I had doubts about this when it was announced. It is a bit silly - you can't see the body language or have face to face interaction with players, so how are you meant to know what to say to them? I think it is not so much the fact that players get unhappy which is the problem, it is that just by saying the wrong thing to them from a random selection of choices you can make them unhappy for years.

I would change it so that you have an ongoing man mangement strategy for different players. You would have a drop down box and choose "put arm around", "be strict" etc. If you notice a player getting unhappy then you can change your strategy.

As long as there was a "punch in face" option.

A lot of people seem to want FM2011 to be CM1 with a new database.

A lot of people seem to want FM2011 to be CM1 with a new database.

I was thinking that myself. If you don't like the new features and think they flood the game, just stick with an older version and get a database update

Q: Do you want to play CM1 but have a 3 year old Torres at Liverpool?

Possible answers:

- Yes, I'd love that. He'd be better than Rush.

- No, don't be stupid. Torres isn't as good as Dzeko LOLZ.

- Daft. I'll stick with FM 2011.

- I like yoghurt.

Agree - I had doubts about this when it was announced. It is a bit silly - you can't see the body language or have face to face interaction with players, so how are you meant to know what to say to them? I think it is not so much the fact that players get unhappy which is the problem, it is that just by saying the wrong thing to them from a random selection of choices you can make them unhappy for years.

I would change it so that you have an ongoing man mangement strategy for different players. You would have a drop down box and choose "put arm around", "be strict" etc. If you notice a player getting unhappy then you can change your strategy.

Agree with this... it really makes no sense what so ever for a player to get upset when you give a 'disappointed' team talk at the end of a poorly played match and for that one little incident to have serious negative impact on the player because you can't say anything to relax them... because every option you have to 'say' is a different level of 'you're being unprofessional, I'm the boss, shut-up'.

I like the level of detail they want but the implementation does nothing but cause problems because all the AI's (player, board, agents, management) don't have enough depth for them to function as they should. So they need to stop expanding AI's and fix the ones they have.

@ OP : Would very much like to comment seriously, but I'm ROFL.

Great post, respect.

As for the features, well I'm fine with whatever they've put in till now, maybe can tolerate some more. However, I think they should pay more attention to the little niggles everywhere in the game which make the core of the Managing experience.

so im guessing one of your main gripes is the player interaction, where one wrong word could upset someone? Take a look at a very recent real world case. Roy Hodgson criticised Glen Johnson, saying he needs to improve to stay in the team. Something you could do in FM. Now reports are circulating that it's really upset Johnson and he wants to leave in January. So the fact this happens in FM isn't realistic?

Has the player demanded transfer? No. In FM 11 players demand transfer for even less than that.

Argument shot down, go back to your fanboy land.

I seriously believe that anyone who defends the morale and player interaction are SI bots or simply human bots.

Let's see where you will hide when SI addresses the problem (which you say doesn't exist) with a patch. You'll all probably crawl back to your fanboy holes.

Agree, sometimes it feels like youre in a Quiz show and if you get the wrong answer youre doomed in all eternity.

That's almost exactly the phrase Brian Clough used when he refused to attend press conferences while managing Brighton:D although he was somewhat more earthy.

Whatever you said

Why does enjoying or commending a game for its realism count as being a fanboy? I honestly don't get it. I hate that word anyway. What does it even mean. We're all fanboys, as we're on a forum talking to people we don't know about a game we enjoy. We do enjoy it, don't we? If you don't enjoy it, then don't come on here. I don't go on a Lord of the Rings forum and talk about how I don't think Peter Jackson is a genius...

And TSH, this isn't aimed at you, you were the most recent user of "fanboy" so you were practical to quote

Why does enjoying or commending a game for its realism count as being a fanboy? I honestly don't get it. I hate that word anyway. What does it even mean. We're all fanboys, as we're on a forum talking to people we don't know about a game we enjoy. We do enjoy it, don't we? If you don't enjoy it, then don't come on here. I don't go on a Lord of the Rings forum and talk about how I don't think Peter Jackson is a genius...

And TSH, this isn't aimed at you, you were the most recent user of "fanboy" so you were practical to quote

Commending a game is fine... blindly saying there is nothing wrong with various aspects, especially AI's, is either being a fanboy or ignorant.

Not directing that at anyone at all, just stating the difference.

I don't think it's a binary of exclusively being either a fanboy or ignorant, I think that's quite an ignorant thing to say in itself!

A lot of people just play and accept the game how it is, for what it is. Just cos they don't highlight its flaws doesn't make them overly pro-FM, nor oblivious to the flaws. No, the game is not perfect. It's been patched. No, it's still not perfect. It's being patched.

There are problems with it, but I love it. I enjoy it.

Like I said, people come on here and just whinge about it. Surely that's more "fanboy" ish? Whingeing cos it's not the game they think it should be? I will never understand that thought process, but that's what half of the posts are on here. Yet if you like the game, you're lambasted and accused of bumming it. The bummers are the people who try and do SI's work for them, cos they clearly care too much about it. Just enjoy it.

Likewise, not aimed at anyone. Just musing on the wonders and subsequent mysteries of forum behaviour

I don't think it's a binary of exclusively being either a fanboy or ignorant, I think that's quite an ignorant thing to say in itself!

A lot of people just play and accept the game how it is, for what it is. Just cos they don't highlight its flaws doesn't make them overly pro-FM, nor oblivious to the flaws. No, the game is not perfect. It's been patched. No, it's still not perfect. It's being patched.

I can agree that people can look past the flaws... however we have a completely different situation here imo.

FM10 had it's bugs as well correct? They weren't terrible and I lived with them and enjoyed the game enough I bought FM11. My reason for being harsh on 11 isn't simply because it's bugged however. It's because things that worked perfectly fine in 10 don't work worth a damn in 11. As I've said in other threads, newer versions are supposed to be steps forwards, not steps backwards... and yes, 11 is certainly a step backward (perhaps more). Simply adding agents, match prep, individual training, and deeper player interaction, does not mean the game is better or moving forward when you compare all the new bugs throughout all aspects of the game that didn't exist in 10.

It's one thing if this is the first FM or if overall it was better then FM10. But neither of those are remotely true, that is why the game deserves -structured- criticism imo. Pointless whining is no better then being a blind fanboy and there are always people on both sides of that coin.

Hats off to the OP, brilliant post and captures exactly all the problems wrong with the game, some of its fanbase (as evidenced by some of the replies in this thread) and SI.

Nearly all the "features" they have introduced in the last few years have made the game worse. SI is a company going in the wrong direction, alienating its true fans in the stupid search for new target markets, going for quantity over quality, and producing regular *****, year after year. The only reason the company survives is that is has no competition. But competition or not, any company that behaves as SI does at the moment has no long-term future. Once the apple cart is overturned, the apples can't be put back.

Ironically, the game could be made ten times better just by repealing all the guff they've introduced in the last few years. Get rid of all press conferences, player interaction, team talk, media, agents and other rubbish. None of these areas in its present form is anywhere near fit for purpose. Just leave the core game of players, training, transfers (once fixed obviously), tactics and the match and you'd have a much better game since those are the bits that actually work.

It is bad because the subject matter is so deep that it is impossible to simulate with any kind of realism.

This is the key point here. Some things in the game can be fairly accurately simulated, others cannot. SI should be emphasising those aspects that they can simulate realistically and downplaying the rest.

In other words, I have no problem with players reacting to press conferences and team talks, but as their reactions cannot be simulated well the effects should be minor.

Another problem with the interactions is the vague descriptions of the player personalities. If a player at my club is described as "balanced" how should I treat him? Balanced covers a huge range of stats. In real life you can judge a player by talking to him, watching how he interacts with other players, and generally getting to know him. In FM you have to pretty much guess and then adjust next time if you get a bad reaction.

With no hint of irony, I'm really enjoying this debate. It's good.

All things said and considered, then, to the people who agree with the OP and think that FM's direction has become too much like "The Sims" ha ...

If FM 2012 came out tomorrow (or in 2012, it is trivial ) and it had all these so called wishy-washy features removed, was stripped down akin to older versions of FM, played exactly the same as, say FM 2005, but was the same price as FM 2011:

- Would you buy it?

- Or would you go back to FM 2005 and get a database update?

My point is, if you answer yes to the latter- why don't you do that now?

If you answer yes to the former: you're a mug

Chewbacca doesn't live on Endor :confused:

Oh and if the children could stop using the word 'fanboy' it would make this a nicer place to be.

now, i don't agree with it as i think man management IS the most important thing in football and it IS the difference between winning the league and coming second best in the end. one question for all of you.

Have to agree, handling your players is a key to any major sport, if you have a team full of individuals that don't listen to anyone you are obviously going to lose and if you play a system your players can't handle or don't understand you are going to lose.

However, SI's representation of this is bad at the moment. In FM10 it was fine, but the added depth to player interaction has seriously broken it.

For starters, just like the other areas, the AI is just plain flawed. But more over the system doesn't always give you options to resolve a situation.

I've mentioned my experience many times already. My teams captain, fan icon, and all around professional vet tells me he has a concern about my team talks after I give him a 'disappointed' talking when he totally dropped the ball in a match. So right off the bat the behavior that upset him was more then perfectly acceptable and expected. But now he has that concern, and I can't interact with him because if I do it jumps right back to that same conversation that he is upset. Ok, that seems reasonable enough... except the 4 options I'm given I can't do anything but make the issue worse. 1 option is the obvious 'convo is over' obviously no help there. The other 3 options are ALL negative, saying he's being unprofessional (my team captain and vet) or that I'm the boss and he should just shut-up. So exactly what am I supposed to do except ignore the situation and hope it goes away or willfully make it worse? You think real managers have their hands tied like this in any but the most extreme cases of a disloyal player?

I'm all for a man management system that works... like it did in FM10, but the changes they've made to 11 have broken that system. Plain and simple.

Edit: @matthewsoles I'm all for advancing the game and implementing more to it... but if you add things that don't work and break things that did work, all while not fixing things that were broken the whole time... that's not progress. The end.

LOL. This is an epic thread

With no hint of irony, I'm really enjoying this debate. It's good.

All things said and considered, then, to the people who agree with the OP and think that FM's direction has become too much like "The Sims" ha ...

If FM 2012 came out tomorrow (or in 2012, it is trivial ) and it had all these so called wishy-washy features removed, was stripped down akin to older versions of FM, played exactly the same as, say FM 2005, but was the same price as FM 2011:

- Would you buy it?

- Or would you go back to FM 2005 and get a database update?

My point is, if you answer yes to the latter- why don't you do that now?

If you answer yes to the former: you're a mug

There have been many improvements to the game in terms of ME, transfer realism, finances, and various other aspects. Going back to FM05 you would lose all of that. Also, is there really a data update for FM05 with the same depth to it as the 11.1 data? I very much doubt it.

So to answer your questions:

- Would you buy it?

No, not if I had to pay again for what is a tweaked version of the game I bought recently. However, if there wass an optional patch to remove or reduce the impact of certain features then I'd use that patch.

- Or would you go back to FM 2005 and get a database update?

No, for the reasons already stated. Other than interactions (including team talks and press conferences) the game is much better than 6 years ago.

With no hint of irony, I'm really enjoying this debate. It's good.

All things said and considered, then, to the people who agree with the OP and think that FM's direction has become too much like "The Sims" ha ...

If FM 2012 came out tomorrow (or in 2012, it is trivial ) and it had all these so called wishy-washy features removed, was stripped down akin to older versions of FM, played exactly the same as, say FM 2005, but was the same price as FM 2011:

- Would you buy it?

- Or would you go back to FM 2005 and get a database update?

My point is, if you answer yes to the latter- why don't you do that now?

If you answer yes to the former: you're a mug

If SI could actually guarantee and say FM 11 had no new features but was just an improved FM10, to remove bugs, improve the match engine, update the database and improve the Newgen players then I, without a doubt would have bought it. And enjoyed it a lot more than I currently am enjoying 11.

And data updates are as buggy as the new game.

Excellent, good scenes.

I hope people don't think I'm stirring here, or trying to wind people up. I'm just trying to get inside people's heads and see what makes them tick.

To quote the much maligned FM press interaction: "This is all positive stuff".

Easily post of the month , i am still crying with aerodynamic haircut

And data updates are as buggy as the new game.

Like starting with a GK, Fitness, and 2 youth coaches as the only coaches on staff in a league that doesn't have a youth team in any shape or form... that is the most glaringly obvious foul-up I've personally experienced and it's a simple database entry.

The opening post is extremely well written and made my laugh, and throughout the thread there are some valid points well made.

I find it disappointing that SI never get it 100% when programming the player interactions/team talks part of the game. They have promised for the last couple of years improvements in this area. Ultimately, what they have only done is 're-phrase' the comments you can make, there has been no serious overall, and in my opinion, this is what is needed.

It is still very much a case of suck it and see. If you choose the right one, you were lucky and might see an improvement. If you choose the wrong one, then there is very little/no options to try and rectify the situation and normally have to sell the player as they will also de-moralise the rest of your team.

I'm sure this happens IRL, however, I'm sure real-life managers have more than 4 options available to them when dealing with players and get a greater insight to their players personality then we do.

I would be all in favour in at least having the personality hidden stats made visable. Then, we would have more of chance of getting it right as you would get a better picture of who you are dealing with. This is important when dealing with lower league/overseas/regens as they are unknown players and we do not get a particularly good picture of the players personality traits (apart from 1 line from a scout which is normally just as vague).

Until this gets the major overhaul it needs, I believe it should get toned-down quite considerably so the impact is minimal as team morale tends to fly all over the place in the current creation!

the only way i can see the sims being put into the game would be inviting opposition managers round to the house, then an "accidental" fire starts up and they are trapped in the flames...

the only way i can see the sims being put into the game would be inviting opposition managers round to the house, then an "accidental" fire starts up and they are trapped in the flames...

Or you have to quit your job as you've got married and had a baby even though you only kissed the girl 30 seconds ago.

I agree with the thread starter. The game has become very complex and is much about anything before/after the matches.

Considering the words "the most realistic manager game" which we hear often, then SI are right. They just have to be careful about going too much away from matches. I guess many of us remember the old days where we just sat down and enjoyed a couple of games. This shouldn't be taken too much away from us, especially considering that the game is pretty slow :-)

It is still very much a case of suck it and see. If you choose the right one, you were lucky and might see an improvement. If you choose the wrong one, then there is very little/no options to try and rectify the situation and normally have to sell the player as they will also de-moralise the rest of your team.

The fact that there seem to be right and wrong answers is part of the problem. In reality it's not that simple. Options should have multiple effects and be far less random. Management would be about balancing these options.

For example, a player plays badly in a game. Currently you have the option of telling him he's played badly, or don't interact at all.

If you choose to interact and he responds well then morale goes up. If he responds badly then morale drops to Very Poor and he may ask for a transfer.

My version of events would be that the following options would exist with the following effects:

- You played badly last game, but don't worry about it as it was only one game

Probable morale boost

Increased complacency

Player's opinion of you may increase or decrease depending on personality

- You played badly last game, you need to concentrate on your game more

Possible morale drop

Decreased complacency

Player's opinion of you may increase or decrease depending on personality

- You played badly last game, you need to work harder

Possible morale drop

Increased motivation

Player's opinion of you may increase or decrease depending on personality

- You played badly last game, you must do better next time

Possible morale drop

Increased motivation and concentration

Player's opinion of you may increase or decrease depending on personality

If next performance is bad then probable morale drop

So choosing the right option would also become about identifying the issue. If you think the player was lazy, tell them to work harder. If you feel they were complacent, tell them to concentrate.

For me, this would feel more like managing a football club than the current system.

so im guessing one of your main gripes is the player interaction, where one wrong word could upset someone? Take a look at a very recent real world case. Roy Hodgson criticised Glen Johnson, saying he needs to improve to stay in the team. Something you could do in FM. Now reports are circulating that it's really upset Johnson and he wants to leave in January. So the fact this happens in FM isn't realistic?

Hodgson criticised Glen Johnson via the national press, which, ironically, we don't have the option to do very often in the game.

I agree that the player interactions are too basic and limited in scope to make them realistic at the moment, but with enough development could become an awesome feature.

Chewbacca doesn't live on Endor :confused:

He moved recently after getting kicked out of his council flat.

I think there should be a "SUPERINJUNCTION!!!11!1!one!!" mini-game that springs up out of nowhere. One of your players has been a bit naughty, and it's up to you to hide the evidence via a capture the flag style mini-game, you v the press. If you capture the flag the most times, his shenanigans stay secret and his career remains intact. If the press capture the flag the most, all hell breaks loose, resulting in the UI being displayed upside down, and you have to manage that way for 4 game weeks until everything dies down.

Thank you to those who complimented me about the post.

A lot of the comments I made were exaggerated, but the main crux of the post is how I feel. I honestly feel there has been far to much emphasis made of the interactions between the manager and the players. I understand completely that man management and the ability to motivate players is vital to modern day football. However unless SI can come up with a system that is totally transparent to the user then I don't feel it is remotely fair to have the effect be so important.

I also believe that the FM series has got to the point of information overload. I remember seeing a documentary about the American military, they have developed what is called a 'electronic battlefield' where they gather information from a multitude of sources to enable their commanders to make the best decisions etc. During test they actually found out that it was possible to overload soldiers/commanders with information causing them to make poor decisions. I think this is currently the case with FM, there is far too much *stuff* thrown at the player, most of which is very unintuitive.

Take the team talks for example, this whole area is incredibly confusing, with managers worried what to say to players incase they lose their motivation. This is something that if it is going to play a vital role in results that needs to completely transparent, none of this guesswork stuff.

Someone asked whether people just want the old CM with the new database. I want a balance, with the key emphasis being on playability and fun rather than the need to try and simulate everything possible. Marc Vaughan has mentioned numerous times that he see's elements of RPGs in the FM series. I understand that, it's about creating a believable environment for players to be apart of to enhance the feel of actually being in charge of a football team. My only issue with this is that, in RPGs such as Baldurs Gate the developers do not simulate every aspect of the environment to build a believable playing environment. You didn't see Tolkien writing about how Frodo had to stop to take a pee on his way to Mordor because it's realistic. The emphasis has to be on the player, what works for the player, does the player really need to play 'lets motivate player x,y,x' every week to make them feel like Alex Ferguson.

Overall I think sometime less is more. Blizzard made WoW, people complain about it, but it's an insanely polished product compared to the vast majority of MMOs released. Now WoW doesn't constantly throw new features at players, but what they do is make sure that the features that are in the game work amazingly well. Months upon months of play testing, constantly honing, changing little details etc. There is no way that anyone can tell me that months and months went into testing the latest version of FM, it only takes a few days playing to see that there are some stand-out issues that needed fixing.

Overall I just feel disappointed with where I see the FM series going. It really is a shame that there is no viable alternative to FM, I can't help but feel that SI would be far more reluctant to release a product like FM in it's current state if they knew there was a potential for customers to try a different product.

This is the best thread in quite a while. Good points, well written and funny as hell. I agree with pretty much all of it.

I've been trying to start a career since the game came out but the thought of the huge amount of work that's awaiting me before I even play the summer friendlies just puts me off.

I never wanted to be a real-life manager. I have a different profession. All this extra work is taking us away from the fun side of football.

Thank you to those who.......................

Great post, spot on & extremely well worded.

Almost all the problems with the current system can be resolved by having players become more resilient to changes in morale. Have it average out over multiple games so a single loss doesn't massively effect things. In fact, when playing against people in your league, it should really take a run of losses to have a strong effect on morale and even then it should be tweaked to have a lower effect on performance in matches. Only stunning victories against better teams or crushing defeats against lowly opponents should have a big swing of morale. The system is not fundamentally broken, it just needs to be drastically toned down. I think the difference in performance between great morale and low morale should be 10-15%, instead of the 80% difference it seems to make currently.

Yeah very good points OP and very funny too! At the end of the day gimmicks sell games and for the casual users and potential buyers they want these add ons. But we know that they make the game worse as it is impossible to get them right. The sooner SI realise that the better - but they just want to sell as many copies as possible.

LOL Kudos to the OP.

How about a minigame based on the training schedules, running around the ground. Winner gets a morale boost, loser asks for transfer and hates his teammates.

Great original post by poolfan, made me laugh.

Also some very vaild points raised and discussed by fellow FM fans in this thread.

Personally i think the addition of more player interaction, agents etc is good. And it is a step in the right direction, to making me personally...feel more involved.

I do however also agree strongly with alot of the posts in this thread, about it all being very poorly implemented. There just doesn't seem to be any lee-way...and it's all very unforgiving.

Sure i can appreciate that we have prima donna players nowadays, and fully appreciate that they have their own personalities...and are likely to re-act differently to any given situation.

But for me, it's all just too random. Trying to be non aggressive and back down/apologise in player talks is impossible. The answers/responses available are very poor. Players get far too upset, far too easily. They then want to be transfer listed and that's that. It's the same for morale. players get to demoralised far too easily. Again, press conferences seem to be a bit of a lottery to a degree. And again can have a far too big an impact (imho). You could maybe understand/expect the odd plyer to get drops in morale/infuriated by certain things as it's their personality...but the whole team? From one or two comments? Or just a couple of defeats?

As i've said, i do think the addition of the player talks/interaction and agents etc are a step in the right direction. But if it means shoe-horning them in where they are un-workable and game spoiling and just not logical, i'd be the first to just say...i'd prefer them to be gone.

As much as i love fm series over the years, and as much as i hate to feel like i'm ranting and having a go at SI. There are a lot of elements in FM2011 that just feel rushed. Don't even get me started about the weird transfer listing bugs, or the inablility to sell any of your own premiere players to any club...no matter what league or how much you lower the price. As people in this thread alone have mentioned, alot of these problems are evident after only a short while playing. It does beggar belief how alot of these things are missed. Especially when it's either a fundamental part of the game...or one of your lovely new game features your touting.

Again as ever, i'm sure alot of things will be tweaked with patches and this is fine. But we shouldn't have major fundamental parts of the game just not working and needing to be patched upon release. I can forgive little bugs being missed. I do appreciate it's impossible to release a bug free game. But i also fail to see how a new feature etc is implemented so badly. And i fail to see how a major part of the game (transfers) just isn't working. It's pretty hard to enjoy my game with so many problems...as much as i try to overlook them.

Strange, I played just last night and there was an actual football game. Also I bought and sold a few players.

This new player interaction is the dumbest, and along with press conferences should be eliminated altogether. As has been discussed many times in these threads, the time spent on refining these things would be better spent on making a more realistic scouting system, and a better transfer system (with an AI that has better intelligence). And they should also be thinking about making a game that's faster and more fun. But I think SI realizes it's more marketable to make "new" features every year to sell the game. And I guess it works because I think sales are good. I have become tired of the game, and am probably not the only one.