Sensible Soccer/Football Manager (a match made in heaven)

Hi guys, (this was previously posted on the xbox 360 section)

One of the cleverest decisions by sigames was buying out the football manager name. The original game on the Spectrum 48k I played to death when I was about 10/11 years of age.

My new topic concerns another retro title called Sensible Soccer. It has been well documented that it was one of the best selling games of all time. I bought the original games and had many a good game against my friends. There has been a lot of negative comments concerning the non support of sensible soccer especially on the recent release of the title on xbox 360 live. The title was sitting in limbo for a long time and appears designated to do so once again.

I noticed in these forums that people are asking for the 2d match engine to be updated. Would Sports Interactive not be interested in asking Sega to buy out the Sensible Soccer game/rights from Codemasters. The game (with football manager purpose tweaking) could be updated and used for the match display within football manager and this could be built on. This would allow the (different) stadiums/training facilities and pitch/players within football manager to be seen and would allow a visual display which I believe would hook the player of football manager even more. The possibilities for this could blow Championship Manager out the water and solve the ongoing 2d match engine problem.

This would of course market the game to the football manager audience who never played the original. This would get people interested in the game once again and it could be sold as a standalone product creating another product for the Sports Interactive stable.

People in the previous post spoke about Kick Off by Dino Dini saying it was a better game. People have their opinions. I like the match engine but it has its limitations when you cannot identify how the foul was committed or see a player is injured whereas this would be easier to identify.

There is room out there for a standalone game outwith PES and FIFA - I think this would be an ideal way to market it and benefit Football Manager at the same time.

Hi guys, (this was previously posted on the xbox 360 section)

One of the cleverest decisions by sigames was buying out the football manager name. The original game on the Spectrum 48k I played to death when I was about 10/11 years of age.

My new topic concerns another retro title called Sensible Soccer. It has been well documented that it was one of the best selling games of all time. I bought the original games and had many a good game against my friends. There has been a lot of negative comments concerning the non support of sensible soccer especially on the recent release of the title on xbox 360 live. The title was sitting in limbo for a long time and appears designated to do so once again.

I noticed in these forums that people are asking for the 2d match engine to be updated. Would Sports Interactive not be interested in asking Sega to buy out the Sensible Soccer game/rights from Codemasters. The game (with football manager purpose tweaking) could be updated and used for the match display within football manager and this could be built on. This would allow the (different) stadiums/training facilities and pitch/players within football manager to be seen and would allow a visual display which I believe would hook the player of football manager even more. The possibilities for this could blow Championship Manager out the water and solve the ongoing 2d match engine problem.

This would of course market the game to the football manager audience who never played the original. This would get people interested in the game once again and it could be sold as a standalone product creating another product for the Sports Interactive stable.

People in the previous post spoke about Kick Off by Dino Dini saying it was a better game. People have their opinions. I like the match engine but it has its limitations when you cannot identify how the foul was committed or see a player is injured whereas this would be easier to identify.

There is room out there for a standalone game outwith PES and FIFA - I think this would be an ideal way to market it and benefit Football Manager at the same time.

So basically you think its a good idea for SI to drop the 2D match engine they have been working on for the past 3-4 years and integrate a 3rd party match display that probably isn't compatible.

Doesn't really make sense does it.

i'm pretty happy with the 2-d match engline to be honest

i'd much rather it was kept rather than bringing in some complex 3-d engine which will mean either having to play less leagues or buy a new laptop, especially seeing as i pay more attention to the commentary, and am more likely to watch a match on split screen with latest scores and league table than on pitch mode

(ok, so this is actually only on the last day of the season, but every season without fail, even if i have nothing to play for, i can watch a heated relegation battle or something, last day of the season is always a good bit of fun)

i don't really care what the diplay looks like. the 2d display is the most appropreate because you can see faults in your formation/tactics.

identifying how fouls were committed would be useful only in a media reponse context.

for example, i prefer PES 2008 to Fifa 08. Fifa has all the fancy clothes on, but PES provides a more realistic game of football.

^^WHS but with some tweaks.

I wouldn't imagine it isn't that easy (in fact it's probably impossible) to intergrate the different types of coding of FM & Sensi, however altering the direction of the current 2D me to something more akin to Sensi/Kick Off or Goal(that was Dino Dini's masterpiece) is not a bad idea.

An end to the tactics board dots is a must in the long term as the information it offers is limited, judging tackles/fouls is a nightmare, also having a more visually accurate representation would help in noticing the subtle details; did the forward lung for the ball with the wrong foot, did my lumbering CB actually fall over with exhaustion or was he just caught ball watching as the opposition ST ran past him on the blind side.

teh one issue however is the requirements to run such a ME & the strain it would have on the AI programmers, I would have though to create a stable ME that also offers an infinate number of outcomes (many will remember LMA manager - once the highlight started you knew what was going to happen). I don't think we're that far off have top end PC's being able to cope but what percentage of the FM community own such monsters?

I was replying to Cougar's post btw.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

The one issue however is the requirements to run such a ME & the strain it would have on the AI programmers, I would have thought to create a stable ME that also offers an infinate number of outcomes (many will remember LMA manager - once the highlight started you knew what was going to happen) would require a huge amount of time & testing, something that may not be financial viable. Also we have the issue of what would we play the game on, I don't think we're that far off having top end PC's being able to cope but what percentage of the FM community own such monsters? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had to correct my last paragraph as it was an awful piece of writing, sorry for the triple post.

If the Sensi Soccer match engine was integrated, people would be complaining that the long shots bug had resurfaced.

Cougar,

So you believe in the philosphy that if something isn't broken don't fix it then.

Barside,

I completely agree with your posting. We are not that far away where pc's can handle both the graphical game and the stats side of it also.

For other posters I am not saying to include the game as it is - fix the bugs or even just use the game as an idea but I believe it would be more realistic. After all it is usually only the key moments/highlights of goals that most people watch. Yes it is a departure from the game at the moment and I'm not saying to include the bugs (long shot, headers etc). I'm saying to write a new version of it. At the end of the day even if this was started now it wouldn't be implemented for at least a couple of years I would imagine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I noticed in these forums that people are asking for the 2d match engine to be updated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Every time I've seen a discussion about updating the 2D match engine to something like 3D players... it's greeted with unanimous rejection.

With good reason, too. - The current 2D engine gets across all the points it needs to for us as managers. Anyhthing more would just be eye candy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by birsealmighty:

Cougar,

So you believe in the philosphy that if something isn't broken don't fix it then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is FM broke....No

Is the match display good....Yes

Can it be improved....Yes

Will it be improved by switching it for a different one from another game designer....No (Infact it won't work at all)

Can SI design one that looks similar from scratch....Yes

Do they need to buy the francise to do that....No

btw I don't know whats changed in sensi but I spent many hours playing it years ago and there wasn't a lot of difference between the current FM match display and the sensi one.

I definitely think there would be a market for a more "fun" Sensible Soccer Manager game with a return to the simpler tactics and game world of early CM/FM, plus the retro Sensible Soccer characters playing the game.

We don't all want to spend a five hour session doing ten games, sometimes you want a quick and crunchy fix of football management while you wait for dinnertime.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by birsealmighty:

After all it is usually only the key moments/highlights of goals that most people watch </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really?

Have you asked a high proportion of the FM community?

Not saying you are wrong btw but I get the impression that people watch at a variety of speeds.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm not saying to include the bugs (long shot, headers etc) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn why didn't SI think of that!

Sensible soccer is overrated pinball rubbish.

There I said it.

Kick Off 2 Extra Time was much better.

2D engine works fine for me.

The one thing that needs to be scrapped is the after match interviews asking you about if it was a penalty etc, i mean...how do we tell? the only way i can judge is by looking at the match report but it takes too long and i'd like it to be scrapped!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonBlade:

Sensible soccer is overrated pinball rubbish.CORRECT

There I said it.

Kick Off 2 Extra Time was much better. CORRECT </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should also be noted that Dino Dini's next game (Goal) was in fact the ultimate football game, and should be played by all on an original Amiga (I'm an Atari ST man but even I'll admit Goal is best on Amiga).

I was just about to say teh ame thing Mr Coastal Birdman.

Dino Dini's Goals was without doubt the greatest top down football game of he 80's/90's, I spent a stupid amount of time playing that game on my Amiga.

just to add to what barside has already said...

3d match engines have never worked in manager games for a reason... and thats because the complex nature of the A.I ... bringing in all new physics would not work....

within a few years when everyone will have 4.0Gz processors running in their machines is when developers will start to implement such things...

to do it now would cost vast amounts of money , time and research and would only be available to very few users who have top high end systems....

plus i like the 2d engine.... leaves more to the imagination

what this ME needs is more details (heel passes, back headers to GK, more 1st time passes, multiball...) and more in-depth commentary to give us all info we need.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by welshace:

just to add to what barside has already said...

3d match engines have never worked in manager games for a reason... and thats because the complex nature of the A.I ... bringing in all new physics would not work....

within a few years when everyone will have 4.0Gz processors running in their machines is when developers will start to implement such things...

to do it now would cost vast amounts of money , time and research and would only be available to very few users who have top high end systems....

plus i like the 2d engine.... leaves more to the imagination </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're that kinda guy huh

I like 2D, if I get bored of it I can always play FIFA Manager.

It's nicer to see a birds eye view though, it's more of an overview of the whole game, 3D matches focus on smaller parts of the pitch.

Sensible Soccer was great fun back in the day but let's face it... it hardly simulated football realistically.

ROFL Sensible Soccer..

Your having a laugh!

I remember iplayed it and the ball went out for a goal kick and the ref gave a goal kick.

Stupid game. If tht goes into FM i would hate it.

Their is 3D icons out if you want someone a little more realistic instead of circles.

imeant corner kick

an isometric 3d engine is not going to take up that much memory considering that it takes something on the scale of a game made back in 2001

u guys make it sound like a 3d engine is gonna be running and hogging resources like crysis or something

plus with the 2d bird eye, u can always get that with a 3d engine, u just need to have a camera set to it looking at it straight at the ground

right now trying to figure out if it was a bad tackle or not that deserved a bookable offense is kinda like reading a blank page, u can't realy tell. plus soccer is all about the moves and the physics u know, it will only add to the immersion. This is 2008 people, not like 1998. cm has a 3d engine, is that resource hogging, i doubt it

and if u want realistic, all it takes is more refining, i mean i doubt the 2d match engine would have any appeal when u consider that in pes (use the ps2 graphics if u want), the same thing happens except in 3d (it will take some time to develop all the coding for the physics and stuff but hey what wrong with getting it started now?)

SI have always said that they will not consider the 3D option unless it was realistic to the point that it added something. I.e. not just to have a 3D engine for the sake of it.

If height, weight, specific player skills/traits, looks could be done then I think it would be considered.

I think that FaceGen is a step in this direction. Players will look different. In terms of height/weight - look no further than NBS basketball games to see that this has been possible for some time.

I believe the amount of Motion Capture required may be the sticking point as the investment would be immense.

I would hope however that there could be some sort of intermediary step as I really would like this in the game. I want to see my stadium grow, I want to see empty stands, I want to see a full Old Trafford/Anfield when I get that dream 3rd round FA Cup away draw with my beloved Grays!

I also want to see that my 5'10" striker is up against a 6'6" defender the size of a bus so that I can make changes without going through each indiviual stat of every player!

One thing you can be sure of is that this is in the long term plans for FM. I really do believe that. I am not saying FM2009 but do not rule out FM 2015 and it will be worth the wait as SI have never taken short cuts IMHO.

Obviously I mean NBA!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B. Stinson:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I noticed in these forums that people are asking for the 2d match engine to be updated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Every time I've seen a discussion about updating the 2D match engine to something like 3D players... it's greeted with unanimous rejection.

With good reason, too. - The current 2D engine gets across all the points it needs to for us as managers. Anyhthing more would just be eye candy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

a rather outlandish claim

Sensible Soccer was amazing in its day. But like many other retro games, if you actually go back and play them you're left disappointed. I am anyway.

There might be a market for a dumbed-down, less in-depth management game that incorperates a SS type match engine in some way. But it's not something that should be introduced into FM. I personally think the 2D match engine is close to perfect for this type of game. Of course there are many parts of FM where improvements can be made, the match engine being one of them. But, I don't think too many people will complain about the method used to represent the match engine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonBlade:

Sensible soccer is overrated pinball rubbish.

There I said it.

Kick Off 2 Extra Time was much better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it got so easy to score in SWOS and SS that i just gave up in the end.

rubbish game

I absolutely LOVED SWOS - in it's day. I never played CM 1 or 2 because I enjoyed SWOS and SS so much more.

But times are different now. What I WOULD endorse is taking the player icons for the match screen - they would be so much better than our blobs. The rest is too simplistic and should be left to rest in peace.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

Would we have to make sure the players had big heads? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well they do in real life so we should stick to reality