FM going 3D now?

Just found this:

http://www.sega-europe.com/en/jobs/job.html?id=215

Good find. Isn't neccesarily for FM09 though, and may not neccesarily be what it looks like initially. Hopefully someone like Ter can clear this up, it leaves a great mystery hanging.

I hope not. If they are only recruiting now it means that it can't be implemented for at least two years surely?

Deffo not FM09 and probably not for full 3D I'd think.

More along the lines of isometric match view or something.

Could it possibly be Facegen related?

Facegen was shipped out to a different company so they would have posted the vacancy. I don't think SI are interested in doing facegen themselves.

It refers to "graphical effects". Lens flare and bloom, ftw!

I like how the "register you interest" and "submit your CV" buttons do the same thing.

They have 3D in the current CM games, the only good part of those games

Uh oh...could my run of CM/FM be nearing an end?

Originally posted by Ryan,,,:

They have 3D in the current CM games, the only good part of those games

Um not really, it's horrible I though.

Stick with 2D unless they are going to animate people or at least arms/legs so we can judge fouls and how the hell they miss open goals.

Other than that, just sticking with dots and moving to 3D perspective is pointless.

Originally posted by Luis L:

Deffo not FM09 and probably not for full 3D I'd think.

I agree that it won't be FM09 but it does look like full 3D. The DirectX and shader experience show that this is going to be more than an isometric 2D match.

Major disappointment. 3D adds nothing to the tactical understanding of the match.

Originally posted by gunnerfan:

Major disappointment. 3D adds nothing to the tactical understanding of the match.

Agreed. If anything, no 3D match engine will ever be able to be as realistic as the FM engine (okay, in terms of appearance, sure. But I'm talking about in gameplay terms). 3D engines are severely limited in this aspect in that they require animation. How many times have you seen the opposition accidentally dribble the ball out of play in Pro Evo simply because there was no animation (and therefore no ability) in the game that would allow a player to knock the ball to the side? And then in management games, where both sides are controlled by the AI, how much worse is the issue?

If you look at a CPU vs CPU match in FIFA or Pro Evo, it's a horrible, unrealistic thing, where players regularly make mistakes that would never happen in real life.

And here's the crucial bit. Those engines have been in development for MANY, MANY YEARS.

I sincerely hope that this 3D stuff isn't for a match engine. A bit of me still tells me it isn't, and I hope that bit is correct.

Originally posted by gunnerfan:

Major disappointment. 3D adds nothing to the tactical understanding of the match.

Strangely reactionary from you

Who knows where it is going, but as SI have consistently stated they will never go 3d until they are confident in their technological capacity to do so, we need not be worried. The ME is the core of the game and I am certain it won't be dismantled until a better viable alternative is available.

Why do people have so little faith in their ability to create a 3D represenation of the match engine that in every other thread gets slagged off to death. A 3D is clearly the next big logical step to improving the experience of the game but they aren't going to be implementing a half made patchwork quilt of one if its no more realistic than the current system. Maybe for FM10 they will have it working nicely and everyone will be like wooo this is awesome.

Agreed. If anything, no 3D match engine will ever be able to be as realistic as the FM engine (okay, in terms of appearance, sure. But I'm talking about in gameplay terms). 3D engines are severely limited in this aspect in that they require animation. How many times have you seen the opposition accidentally dribble the ball out of play in Pro Evo simply because there was no animation (and therefore no ability) in the game that would allow a player to knock the ball to the side? And then in management games, where both sides are controlled by the AI, how much worse is the issue?

There's this misconception that technology always stays the same. E.g. that every animation has to be hand-made and that 3d models can only react within these limited constraints imposed by these animations. Obviously FIFA or Pro Evo are a pretty bad place to start here, try GTA IV instead. I wouldn't place any bets on seeing this in any manager sim all so soon, though.

I like 3d. No complaints at all about it. My problem is that 3D will look silly when the game is accelerated beyond real time. I play the match just a bit fast, as do many others, and watching a bunch of 3D models flying around the screen will look pretty silly IMHO.

Originally posted by Svenc:

There's this misconception that technology always stays the same. E.g. that every animation has to be hand-made and that 3d models can only react within these limited constraints imposed by these animations. Obviously FIFA or Pro Evo are a pretty bad place to start here, try GTA IV instead. I wouldn't place any bets on seeing this in any manager sim all so soon, though.

Yes.

The Euphoria engine in GTA IV is absolutely spectacular and revolutionary (see also the dynamic animation in Assassin's Creed which works when climbing). The problem is, imagine the amount of processing power that would be required for all this 3D stuff, especially with advanced animation techniques such as that. This would alienate a lot of their fanbase with less powerful computers, and there are also those who would prefer that same processing power go towards an even more advanced match engine, you know?

(P.S. you've been making good arguments pretty much everywhere I've seen you lately, keep it up! )

Wont be for FM09, maybe FM 2010. I think it will be a 3D engine since SI is also advertising for a 3d Artist. Also interestingly SI is also advertising for a handheld programmer for PSP and DS, so maybe FM will be released on DS now as well.

Yay...Its about time FM moves in this direction. 2D was nice for the 90's but I think its time for an upgrade. Unfortunately this means FM09 will still be the same old game. (hopefully with some major improvements this time)

Originally posted by jakobx:

Yay...Its about time FM moves in this direction. 2D was nice for the 90's but I think its time for an upgrade. Unfortunately this means FM09 will still be the same old game. (hopefully with some major improvements this time)

Based on what evidence, where? I can pretty much guarantee you that the FM09 ME will blow you away if FML development is anything to go by. Even though it is still 2d!!!

I agree that 3d will add nothing to the game , although i wanna see how those stupid defense - errors & teleporting goalkeepers look.

Originally posted by wwfan:I can pretty much guarantee you that the FM09 ME will blow you away if FML development is anything to go by. Even though it is still 2d!!!

Okay, now I'm interested.

Originally posted by Dreaded Walrus:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Svenc:

There's this misconception that technology always stays the same. E.g. that every animation has to be hand-made and that 3d models can only react within these limited constraints imposed by these animations. Obviously FIFA or Pro Evo are a pretty bad place to start here, try GTA IV instead. I wouldn't place any bets on seeing this in any manager sim all so soon, though.

Yes.

The Euphoria engine in GTA IV is absolutely spectacular and revolutionary (see also the dynamic animation in Assassin's Creed which works when climbing). The problem is, imagine the amount of processing power that would be required for all this 3D stuff, especially with advanced animation techniques such as that. This would alienate a lot of their fanbase with less powerful computers, and there are also those who would prefer that same processing power go towards an even more advanced match engine, you know?

(P.S. you've been making good arguments pretty much everywhere I've seen you lately, keep it up! ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

doesnt the xbox have like 512mb of ram though, i know it sounds like a dying cow when running the game but it manages to play it. and it has a whole city to sim with about a hundred people at any one time.

id like 3d but i more than happy with 2d.

1000th person to say "id prefer he issues we have already be fixed"

Originally posted by Dreaded Walrus:

The Euphoria engine in GTA IV is absolutely spectacular and revolutionary (see also the dynamic animation in Assassin's Creed which works when climbing). The problem is, imagine the amount of processing power that would be required for all this 3D stuff, especially with advanced animation techniques such as that. This would alienate a lot of their fanbase with less powerful computers, and there are also those who would prefer that same processing power go towards an even more advanced match engine, you know?

I think 2D's pretty fine as well. However, there's no reason to believe that there's something inherently inferior about 3D when it comes to simulating a football match. Whether it is as efficient a tactical tool as viewing blobs from a top-down perspective is another issue altogether. Yes, 3D and top-down perspectives aren't mutually exclusive, but this is another argument that is being brought up all the time. But efficience is not what we were talking about here. We were talking about the depth of simulation.

That said though, since everybody's touting FM's realism, one could as well argue that a real manager doesn't have such an efficient tool at his disposal, at least not during a live match. During this most crucial time it's just him, a bench and hiseyesight. Anyway...

On the issue of alienating an audience: While FM is also targeting people with weak-ish computers*, fairly old clunkers even, ultimately you're going to alienate somebody with each design decision you make anyways.

The entry-level of new technologies might be pretty steep. They can be relatively taxing for your average machine of today. But the average machine of today are the old clunkers of tomorrow. Sooner or later every PC owner will have a PC powerful enough to run it. I've never witnessed a case in which technology moved backwards, and you know the insane pace at which PC parts are churned out. Again, I'm not necessarily making a case for Euphoria, or 2d, or whatever. Just trying to point out that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe there's something inherently inferior about a 3d match engine.

* Though personally I don't want to know how it would run on a weaker machine than mine which surpasses the recommended specs (x2+ 5200, 2gigs of RAM), to be honest.

It defo won't be FM09. SI have stated a number of times that FM09 is pretty much finished and they've been testing it for months.

If a 3D graphic does come out, I'm just hoping it's not a gimicky change like CM's ice skating sticks. And that they sort out the current issues first.

3D won't add anything to the game, but if it's done properly it won't be a BAD thing. Except of course for those people with PCs older than, say, 2007.

doesnt the xbox have like 512mb of ram though, i know it sounds like a dying cow when running the game but it manages to play it. and it has a whole city to sim with about a hundred people at any one time.

It does but the OS on a PC takes much of that up, especially Windows. Also you have to think about Graphics cards, most users won't have a clue about what is in their machine and would have to update to get the full advantage.

Having said that, I imagine that the 2D option would still be there so would it need a decent machine if you are going to watch on 2D?

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

Yay...Its about time FM moves in this direction. 2D was nice for the 90's but I think its time for an upgrade. Unfortunately this means FM09 will still be the same old game. (hopefully with some major improvements this time)

Based on what evidence, where? I can pretty much guarantee you that the FM09 ME will blow you away if FML development is anything to go by. Even though it is still 2d!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Past experience. Progress has been very slow the past few versions. I dont have any information about FM09 so im just guessing. You must have access to a beta of FM09 as you seem to be pretty sure it will blow us away.

Originally posted by Crimguy:

I like 3d. No complaints at all about it. My problem is that 3D will look silly when the game is accelerated beyond real time. I play the match just a bit fast, as do many others, and watching a bunch of 3D models flying around the screen will look pretty silly IMHO.

Exactly, because the 2D blobs look so smart flying around

Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

Yay...Its about time FM moves in this direction. 2D was nice for the 90's but I think its time for an upgrade. Unfortunately this means FM09 will still be the same old game. (hopefully with some major improvements this time)

Based on what evidence, where? I can pretty much guarantee you that the FM09 ME will blow you away if FML development is anything to go by. Even though it is still 2d!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Past experience. Progress has been very slow the past few versions. I dont have any information about FM09 so im just guessing. You must have access to a beta of FM09 as you seem to be pretty sure it will blow us away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no FM09 Beta. The FML ME is fantastic. As it is the starting point for the development of the FM09 engine, it stands to reason that will be even better. As for being blown away, I managed to add a couple of people to the Beta testing FML ranks after the major changes had been made and they were gobsmacked at how much better the engine played. Some sliders are becoming of key importance, especially CD and d-line, which equates to reality in my opinion. Opening and closing space, and when to do it, is absolutely vital in the FML engine.

Originally posted by Dreaded Walrus:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:

Major disappointment. 3D adds nothing to the tactical understanding of the match.

Agreed. If anything, no 3D match engine will ever be able to be as realistic as the FM engine (okay, in terms of appearance, sure. But I'm talking about in gameplay terms). 3D engines are severely limited in this aspect in that they require animation. How many times have you seen the opposition accidentally dribble the ball out of play in Pro Evo simply because there was no animation (and therefore no ability) in the game that would allow a player to knock the ball to the side? And then in management games, where both sides are controlled by the AI, how much worse is the issue?

If you look at a CPU vs CPU match in FIFA or Pro Evo, it's a horrible, unrealistic thing, where players regularly make mistakes that would never happen in real life.

And here's the crucial bit. Those engines have been in development for MANY, MANY YEARS.

I sincerely hope that this 3D stuff isn't for a match engine. A bit of me still tells me it isn't, and I hope that bit is correct. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason why CPU vs CPU match in FIFA or Pro Evo is terrible is because there are actually FIFA's or Pro Evo's match engine(which is often mean to be controlled by a gamepad) working behind the animations. What we are really talking about here is a 3D representation of SI's match engine. That can make a lot of difference.

The FML ME is fantastic. As it is the starting point for the development of the FM09 engine, it stands to reason that will be even better. As for being blown away, I managed to add a couple of people to the Beta testing FML ranks after the major changes had been made and they were gobsmacked at how much better the engine played. Some sliders are becoming of key importance, especially CD and d-line, which equates to reality in my opinion. Opening and closing space, and when to do it, is absolutely vital in the FML engine.

Coming from wwfan, a person who has really earned his spurs as an FM tactical genius on

the Tactics forum, this revelation has really got me salivating!

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

Yay...Its about time FM moves in this direction. 2D was nice for the 90's but I think its time for an upgrade. Unfortunately this means FM09 will still be the same old game. (hopefully with some major improvements this time)

Based on what evidence, where? I can pretty much guarantee you that the FM09 ME will blow you away if FML development is anything to go by. Even though it is still 2d!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Past experience. Progress has been very slow the past few versions. I dont have any information about FM09 so im just guessing. You must have access to a beta of FM09 as you seem to be pretty sure it will blow us away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no FM09 Beta. The FML ME is fantastic. As it is the starting point for the development of the FM09 engine, it stands to reason that will be even better. As for being blown away, I managed to add a couple of people to the Beta testing FML ranks after the major changes had been made and they were gobsmacked at how much better the engine played. Some sliders are becoming of key importance, especially CD and d-line, which equates to reality in my opinion. Opening and closing space, and when to do it, is absolutely vital in the FML engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Year to year the changes don't blow me away, but when you look at the two-year leaps it's always impressive. From FM06, FM08 is an incredible advance. And I don't think it should be released every two years because they need to find out what to keep and what to ditch. Bugs notwithstanding, and bearing in mind no games company will employ 10,000 testers to check every facet of the game, the series keeps getting better. It's the people who buy the game who'll keep advancing it.