(FM11 Newgens) Long-term games experiences

First let's get this out of the way: Yes, the game has not been officially released just yet. I have bought every Football Manager game since CM2, including this one, so let's stay on topic, OK?

My friend and I have simulated up to 2019 with around ten playable countries (20 leagues) and a database of 75 000 players. I must say that I am very disappointed with the results!

Take a look at Premier League team Fulham, for an example. They have a squad of 25 players. 24 of them are aged 27+, 17 are 30+ and one player is 26, with no newgen in their squad. After NINE simulated years, NO newgen can crack their first team squad!

Fulham might be the most extreme case, but newgens are hard to find in every team around the world. Almost every squad consists of around 20 players aged 27+ (with most being 29+) and with only around 2-5 newgens (almost everyone being backups and getting few league games, if any). Manchester United (second in the league) have three newgens, of which one is a regular. The pattern is the same for every team (at least in the top divisions) in every active league, even though view-only leagues seem to have a few more newgens.

The issue is perhaps even more highlighted for the national teams. The English, Dutch and Spanish national teams have two newgens each with more than two caps. France and Italy have one player each.

I am very disappointed in the results and my long-term game is likely to suffer from this. I am not sure if this might be an isolated incident, as I find it hard to believe this would have passed through beta testing unnoticed? I will set up a new game at my place and see if the results are the same.

Anyone with similar experiences?

Hope this isn't the case and its just one of them careers where thes a lack of quality.

How many leagues did you load?

How many leagues did you load?

READ the second paragraph!

He said he loaded 20 leagues to try it out.

I`ve been playing with 10 leagues loaded and 40k players database and I find the same thing after 5 simulated years in Bulgaria no new gen every breached first squad for the big teams or national team.

And thats after edditing every club in the editor to have better youth facilities and etc and judging that at stsart of the game Averege potential in CSKA was 130 I though that in 5 years atleast one or two talants will bei n the first squad..

I beliave there are players with the potential out there but when they spawn their stats sucks soo badly that its almost impossible to make them decent players. For example my coaches all tell me that Radulovic in my team has the potential to be better then my strikers but he has astnonshing low stats..

I used him as a sub one season 15 matches plus and sent him on loan the other one and still there is no sufficient development.Now he is almost 20 in 2 years he will be finished if he does not develop

READ the second paragraph!

My bad must be lack of coffee in my system today.

To the topic

With Fm 10 I experienced different results every time, so you should check your results by re-simulating the whole 9 years again.

Hmm... I wonder whether JWB's holidayed 5-10 year save has the same problem with newgens.

if this is the case, then im disgusted.

for years and years and years, SI havent been able to find a sloution for this problem.

Its perhaps, the most important thing to get right, when it comes to long term saves.

But the most "intriguing" part is, if it took you 1 day to do this, why wasnt it done by the testers

Bah FM 10 had the same problems ... When I played 15 seasons + with my carrear game changing 10 teams in the process top players around the world were the old generation ones..

When Liverpool appointed me as their manager I had to get rid of Torres/Reina/Masscherano all in their mid 30 with wages of 10 millions euro.

And they were bought by Chelsea/Inters/Barcelona and used them as a first team players.

Not only that but all the guys that used to be hot shots in 2010 were at the same level 10 years later.

I had one newgen in Liverpool who I was using but the others were pathetic ..

P.S Good way to solve this is to use FMRTE and spent 20 minutes each season to buff up young players in all teams

After 15 years the problem goes away. There are only newgens available and they have to us them. It was the same in FM10.

Perhaps this is something that is going to be patched in a few days. Since my game hasnt even been posted yet maybe by the time i get it the problem will be gone .

Perhaps this is something that is going to be patched in a few days. Since my game hasnt even been posted yet maybe by the time i get it the problem will be gone .

Really doubt anything other than data updates will be fixed when the first patch comes out, but we'll see.

I've played a number of long term saves over the years and I've always found the regens. Could be that as I start in the lower leagues (BSS/BSN) I just don't notice the lack of 'talent' too much.

It's probably not worth panicking too much at this point. I'm not sure the contents of the 1st patch (this may be tweaked) but even if it isn't i'd let the bugs forum know so Si can tweak it in patch 2 (if one is needed).

P.S Good way to solve this is to use FMRTE and spent 20 minutes each season to buff up young players in all teams

That's what I did last year...had to put my hand over the screen so I couldn't see there names.

I hope this isn't going to be the case again, like someones already mentioned it's the most important thing in a long save and also so easy to test for and it should have been.

It's probably not worth panicking too much at this point. I'm not sure the contents of the 1st patch (this may be tweaked) but even if it isn't i'd let the bugs forum know so Si can tweak it in patch 2 (if one is needed).

From what was said on MirrorFootball, it sounded like it was just a data update for Liverpool and other things etc.

I wonder how the newgen managers are in FM2011.In FM 2010 most of them had weak mental stats and only played 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 as a formation.I think this could be one of the causes squads are weak 10+ in the game.Newgen manager search for players that only suit those 2 systems.

If this is the case that's a shame. The whole DLR system really excited me for this year but without a decent flow of newgens, i can't see long saves being anywhere near as fun this year.

I may be in a minority here but I didn't see an awful lot wrong with the newgens in FM2010. They weren't perfect but I enjoyed last year's system a lot.

You lot worry to much, just play the game and have fun.

Tbh, a REAL long time game can't have that problem, as the players are ALL newgen.

FM10 newgens were OK-ish, but often there were extremely whacked out nonsense attributes. I was hoping the new newgen positional preset type feature would solve that problem.

Maybe the chance of higher level newgen production should be increased a little bit.

First let's get this out of the way: Yes, the game has not been officially released just yet. I have bought every Football Manager game since CM2, including this one, so let's stay on topic, OK?

My friend and I have simulated up to 2019 with around ten playable countries (20 leagues) and a database of 75 000 players. I must say that I am very disappointed with the results!

Take a look at Premier League team Fulham, for an example. They have a squad of 25 players. 24 of them are aged 27+, 17 are 30+ and one player is 26, with no newgen in their squad. After NINE simulated years, NO newgen can crack their first team squad!

Fulham might be the most extreme case, but newgens are hard to find in every team around the world. Almost every squad consists of around 20 players aged 27+ (with most being 29+) and with only around 2-5 newgens (almost everyone being backups and getting few league games, if any). Manchester United (second in the league) have three newgens, of which one is a regular. The pattern is the same for every team (at least in the top divisions) in every active league, even though view-only leagues seem to have a few more newgens.

The issue is perhaps even more highlighted for the national teams. The English, Dutch and Spanish national teams have two newgens each with more than two caps. France and Italy have one player each.

I am very disappointed in the results and my long-term game is likely to suffer from this. I am not sure if this might be an isolated incident, as I find it hard to believe this would have passed through beta testing unnoticed? I will set up a new game at my place and see if the results are the same.

Anyone with similar experiences?

Which version of the game are you playing (boxed/Steam - what region US, England, Australia, etc)?

Rather than newgens not being good enough, I think it's more of a problem in general of AI teams not rating them enough or rating the 'real' players higher than them. Perhaps it's a reputation issue...

Like somebody said before, the newgen system in FM10 was perfectly enjoyable. I had a very sensible career game with newgens phased in very realistically, I thought.

Could it be the AI not knowing how to improve them?

Meaning, the regens are good if trained/used properly, but the AI not being programmed to actually do so?

Any chance of posting stats of some of the top regens by any chance?

If the game was just as good in twenty plus years time then the sales for the next years game would be less. Its business - SI want us to come back for more!!! It could easily be sorted but would not make economical sense I am afraid!!! SI have always concentrated on the short term games for the more casual user.

Is there a way to combat this, through the use of the editor perhaps, and if so, how? I'm not savvy with the editor at all, never touched it with FM10.

Also, i see alot of threads like this, but SI never comment or explain.

Also, i see alot of threads like this, but SI never comment or explain.

They do, but it's the day before release day, so I wouldn't expect instant answers, but they are pretty good at responding in fairness.

Is there a way to combat this, through the use of the editor perhaps, and if so, how? I'm not savvy with the editor at all, never touched it with FM10.

Also, i see alot of threads like this, but SI never comment or explain.

DONT ever try to play FML, as SI have a policy of never commenting in any threads. So be happy about they do in here.

Oh god, not again.. Year after year, the game after 10-20 years looks absolutely nothing like the game today in terms of player attributes and team composition.. I realize this is hard to get right, but there really hasn't been much improvement over the years..

If the game was just as good in twenty plus years time then the sales for the next years game would be less. Its business - SI want us to come back for more!!! It could easily be sorted but would not make economical sense I am afraid!!! SI have always concentrated on the short term games for the more casual user.

I think that its just a difficult thing to get right. I dont see them not working on this just so you would buy it again next year. It actually makes no business sense, you would lose your customers if you keep coming out with a product that fails or that the customer is unhappy with.

Dyllan, chill out dude, the newgens are pretty ok in FM 2011.

Here are some screenshots from a test holiday game which i ran last night (sorry for resolutions... they were made on a laptop):

game date: november 2018

database: large /unedited

leagues: england, france, italy, romania, spain (all full detail). First league only: russia, turkey, portugal

NO aditional players or view only leagues were loaded

Some of the best newgens worldwide:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-22-57-98.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-22-44-86.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-22-30-01.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-22-15-40.jpg

Ages under 18 (about 16.000 players who are newgens):

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-26-56-07.jpg

Ages unde 21 (about 25. 000 players):

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-18-47-72.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-23-11-01.jpg

Bear in mind that those numbers (16.000 and 25.000) are NOT the real regen count.That's because that list is only based on the club's scouting power, so the real numbers ar surely higher than that. Too bad genie scout is not out (or is it?) or i could've shown you some more in depth regen stats (actual numbers, their overall potential ability, what countries generate the most etc)

Yes, most important nations only have 2-3 newgens in their main squad, but it's only 2018, that's what it always happened in every FM game until now. What did you expect ? NT managers filling their squads with newgens (aged 18-21) as early as 2018 ?! Show me one real life national team squad that has half it's squad made of 21 year old (or lower) players. If a player makes the national team squad before he's 21, that's a really big deal in real life, watch some football ffs. Most of the national squads really are based on experienced players, not kids who just got out of their club youth squad.

If you are surprised that regular clubs still use "old" players in a save game which is only 9 seasons long, than I must say you've probably never played a long term game in FM before. This always happened. Regens take control after about 15 seasons, while the old players are almost completely extinct after about 20 seasons.

People who didn't actually tested the game might actually believe you, so stop moaning for nothing...

P.S: I played FM 2010 until ~2028 or something. Yes, the general quality/quantity of players world wide decreased in the late years, but top clubs still had top players... what i mean is, saying the game becomes bullsh*t after 10-15 seasons because of lack of regens is completely false. Or maybe it is true if you play one league with small database.

I always found regens a problem with FM10. The highest valued player in the DB in 2023 was about 24mil, hardly anything to shout about when you looked at the value of a lot of players in 2010.

Has the england team developed in 5 years. Not really. Spain? Not really. France? slightly. 5 years is not long in terms of personal changing in football. 10 years I wouldnt say too much either. The newgens last year was great in FM10, perfect blend. Your not gonna get 11 world class players in a team. Do a 20 year save and report back that the current crop are still around then we can say "O thats a bit silly" Yes, the AI at times could probably do some wrong things in management by sticking with old guns but their is so many factors why they may have kept the same players onboard.

Like I said, do 20 years then have a complaint.

Just to compare to real life for a second, it's worth noting that Dembele is Fulham's only real first team player under the age of 25.

It's incorrect to infur that there are next to no players under the age of 27 at these clubs. In a game I've got running now Chelsea, Tottenham and Man Utd all have more U25's than they start the game with, as does the English national team - so if I was to narrow my view to just those 4 examples I could surely claim that the newgens are infact too good.

Well, Freeman, look at the age structure of the German team for example. Müller, Badstuber, Kroos, Özil, Boateng without thinking for longer than 10 seconds.

But whatever. Look at the Fulham example. This is extreme. Of course, it would be as unrealistic if each team of 25 consisted of 10 U23 players. But something between 3 and 5 would be a realistic figure and if FM11 is really that far away from that after 7-9 years I'd be worried a lot.

Has the england team developed in 5 years. Not really. Spain? Not really. France? slightly. 5 years is not long in terms of personal changing in football. 10 years I wouldnt say too much either. The newgens last year was great in FM10, perfect blend. Your not gonna get 11 world class players in a team. Do a 20 year save and report back that the current crop are still around then we can say "O thats a bit silly" Yes, the AI at times could probably do some wrong things in management by sticking with old guns but their is so many factors why they may have kept the same players onboard.

Like I said, do 20 years then have a complaint.

Spain? Fabregas, Ramos, Silva, Busquets, Pedro, Pique, Mata, Albiol, Soldado...not changed much in 5 years? They have a new core of youngsters ready to take over and most have already. 5 years in football is a long time.

Not saying this proves or disproves the newgen theory, I'm just saying.

I don't know if I was just lucky or what, but I played FM2010 until about 2034ish and I signed Torres for arsenal 3 seasons in, and he hit 32 league goals and 52 overall goals, then in about 2020 I signed a young spanish striker named Jose Luna, who went and broke both of those records, by 2034, my all time best team had only sergio aguero and gael clichy in the starting 11, and torres on the bench, with all other spots filled by new gens, all of which were world class, I started about 35 leagues, so I had a massive data base, but certainly had little to no problem finding world class new gens for my squad, I just hope FM 2011 is as good based off my experience

So, jayahr, what you are saying is FM national squads should be made of 21 year olds ? Of course there are exceptions in the world, like the one you just pointed out, but even you must agree that this happens very rare and should not be a general pattern in a football manager game, like the thread starter suggested.

but certainly had little to no problem finding world class new gens for my squad, I just hope FM 2011 is as good based off my experience

My point also. And things don't look any different in FM2011.

Hmm... I wonder whether JWB's holidayed 5-10 year save has the same problem with newgens.

Sorry guys with answering all those questions for people I'm only in 2012!!

Well, Freeman, look at the age structure of the German team for example. Müller, Badstuber, Kroos, Özil, Boateng without thinking for longer than 10 seconds.

But whatever. Look at the Fulham example. This is extreme. Of course, it would be as unrealistic if each team of 25 consisted of 10 U23 players. But something between 3 and 5 would be a realistic figure and if FM11 is really that far away from that after 7-9 years I'd be worried a lot.

On a game I have here there are 6.1 players in the first team squads of Premiership sides under the age of 25 at the same point in time as the opening post suggests.

On a game I have here there are 6.1 players in the first team squads of Premiership sides under the age of 25 at the same point in time as the opening post suggests.

6.1 on average? And are there any very young guys? eg. 18-21.

The newgens in the post above look just as stupid as they did last year? The best young CB's in the game can't jump again? The best young DM are lightning fast again? WTF I thought they said they were fixing this?

Well, Freeman, look at the age structure of the German team for example. Müller, Badstuber, Kroos, Özil, Boateng without thinking for longer than 10 seconds.

I expect that Germany are the exception, not the rule.

They made changes to their youth structure and some rule changes that allow other nationalities to play for Germany a few years ago and only reaped the benefits in the WC.

So they've been building up to those young players you named for quite a few years and until other countries do similar things then there won't be any other team that can repeat the feat for many years.

The newgens in the post above look just as stupid as they did last year? The best young CB's in the game can't jump again? The best young DM are lightning fast again? WTF I thought they said they were fixing this?

There were no central defenders in Freeman's post.

Dyllan, chill out dude, the newgens are pretty ok in FM 2011.

Some of the best newgens worldwide:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-22-57-98.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-22-44-86.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-22-30-01.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/freeman211986/fm2010-11-0415-22-15-40.jpg

.

Uhm, two of the players are strikers and have 7 and 9 @ finishing..? or am i missing something here?

Freeman (and perhaps a few other) are missing the point completely. Yes, there are good top newgens and a few of them can easily crack a first team squad. However, a newgen's starting age can be between 16-21, if I am correct? After nine seasons the game can thus have newgens between 16-30 years old. I would assume that at least a third of the database would consist of newgens by now? Is that a fair assumption?

I am not claiming that the teams should have a team full of players 21 or younger, but even the older newgens seems to have a hard time making an impact. It's, after nine year’s time, still all about older original players. I would guess that on average the Premier League teams are having three or four newgens in their squads.

I am not claiming the game to be "broken" but this save game was certainly not functioning satisfying. May it be that it was unusual or whatever. I am sure people will make more extensive experiments in the near future.

Stu: That sounds good. I will set up a new game and try it again, assuming we don’t get the patch and I get hooked on playing the game for real.

The newgens in the post above look just as stupid as they did last year? The best young CB's in the game can't jump again? The best young DM are lightning fast again? WTF I thought they said they were fixing this?

As mentioned, there haven't been any Centre Backs posted in this thread, and in real life there are actually some reasonably fast DMC's.

So, jayahr, what you are saying is FM national squads should be made of 21 year olds ? Of course there are exceptions in the world, like the one you just pointed out, but even you must agree that this happens very rare and should not be a general pattern in a football manager game, like the thread starter suggested.

Where exactly did he suggest that? All I'm seeing is that he thinks 2-3 newgens per squad on average is a bit too few 9 years in. Which it is, if you compare it to reality. Compare any current Premier League squad to their 2001 version for example and you'll see what I mean.

Fwiw, I think it's a combination of quite a few issues. Firstly - the quality of newgens vs researched youngsters. Researched young players tend to have much more well rounded attributes which means they will be preferred at the start of the game and this cuts down chances for the first few generations of newgens. Secondly there's reputation. For some reason newgens often can't match the reputation of real players even if their attributes would allow it. Thirdly - and most importantly - it's poor squad management by the AI. The AI managers should be far less happy to let their squad stagnate, but they aren't really able to anticipate aging process so they end up sticking with their senior players for far too long without any attempt to phase them out.

I hope the OP's experience is more of a one off, but I've seen this problem in a similar form too often down the years so I'm not expecting much improvement either.

I expect that Germany are the exception, not the rule.

They made changes to their youth structure and some rule changes that allow other nationalities to play for Germany a few years ago and only reaped the benefits in the WC.

So they've been building up to those young players you named for quite a few years and until other countries do similar things then there won't be any other team that can repeat the feat for many years.

Just look at Germany's 2002 World Cup squad, which certainly wasn't a young team! Squads are cyclical; they often age together before being torn up. FM does try to replicate this.

Stu, could you look at this thread and tell us if newgen managers are stiil as bad as they were in FM 2010. I never had any problem with newgen players in the past version but coaches were extremely bad in mental attributes and thus in a long term game the difficulty of the game went down drastically.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/228246-10-years-in-and-4-4-2-rules-the-world

Just look at Germany's 2002 World Cup squad, which certainly wasn't a young team! Squads are cyclical; they often age together before being torn up. FM does try to replicate this.

Good point there. Just take a look at Milan and Chelsea's squads IRL. Players like Nesta, Zambrotta, Gattuso, Pirlo, Inzaghi, Lampard, Terry, Drogba are very hard to replace. It's hard for a talented youngster to break through into the big teams and play regularly. Pato and Obi Mikel being the exceptions.