Too many AMC's

Can't wait for the first patch. This year's FM looks like being a genuine top class improvement over the previous year's. Great work SI!

More to the point - does anyone feel there are too many "talented" players who happen to have the natural position of Attacking Midfield: Central? I don't get why this is so prevalent throughout the game.

Not many players in real life are suited to playing in this role, even fewer actually play in it on a regular basis, so what gives?

I find that a lot of the young MC's, play better in the AMC postion, and to hell there is a lot of them

There are also some players who I just don't understand why they are set to having AMC as their natural position.

E.g. Messi and Ronaldinho. Messi should be a natural right winger, and Ronaldinho should be a natural left winger, as that's where they tend to play most of the time (even if they drift infield say about half the time, they're still predominantly found on the wings). Even if AMC is also natural to those players, they should still be natural wingers too instead of just being accomplished out there.

Food for thought

Even more strange is Ryan Babel is a natural AMC :confused::confused:

There are also some players who I just don't understand why they are set to having AMC as their natural position.

E.g. Messi and Ronaldinho. Messi should be a natural right winger, and Ronaldinho should be a natural left winger, as that's where they tend to play most of the time (even if they drift infield say about half the time, they're still predominantly found on the wings). Even if AMC is also natural to those players, they should still be natural wingers too instead of just being accomplished out there.

Food for thought

Messi played AMC last season.

I was thinking the same thing the other day, it's not really a common position and seems to be one thats dying out. I suppose more italian teams used to play with one, but it's not as common these days.

Jack Wilshere is a natural AMC, which is quite funny considering even in the youth team he didn't play there, same for the reserves and all of his games for the Arsenal first team. I'd love to see them do away with AM's in general, because I like to have people playing in their 'natural' role and it's very hard to stick to that.

If you play a flat 4-4-2 it's very hard to get natural wide players for that formation.

There are also some players who I just don't understand why they are set to having AMC as their natural position.

E.g. Messi and Ronaldinho. Messi should be a natural right winger, and Ronaldinho should be a natural left winger, as that's where they tend to play most of the time (even if they drift infield say about half the time, they're still predominantly found on the wings). Even if AMC is also natural to those players, they should still be natural wingers too instead of just being accomplished out there.

Food for thought

Messi is naturally more of an AMC, a number 10, but gets played on the wing at Barcelona because they don't use a number 10/playmaker.

Truth is, he gets played out of position at Barcelona. Scary, huh?

If you watch him play for Argentina, he plays his natural position, AMC.

Messi is naturally more of an AMC, a number 10, but gets played on the wing at Barcelona because they don't use a number 10/playmaker.

Truth is, he gets played out of position at Barcelona. Scary, huh?

If you watch him play for Argentina, he plays his natural position, AMC.

but which one's his natural if he plays far better on the right?

four four two did an big thing about the "playmaker" being reborn in football a few months ago, (players like ozil or schneidjer (sp?) and the real madrid youngster whos name i cant remember) maybe FM2011 has taken into consideration the fact that there seems to be more of this type of player about these days and more managers are looking for them

I was thinking the same thing the other day, it's not really a common position and seems to be one thats dying out. I suppose more italian teams used to play with one, but it's not as common these days.

Jack Wilshere is a natural AMC, which is quite funny considering even in the youth team he didn't play there, same for the reserves and all of his games for the Arsenal first team. I'd love to see them do away with AM's in general, because I like to have people playing in their 'natural' role and it's very hard to stick to that.

If you play a flat 4-4-2 it's very hard to get natural wide players for that formation.

Surely with the popularity of 4-2-3-1, we're getting more AMCs these days, not less? Have a look, for instance, at the number of teams in the Premier League who are playing 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1.

Also, the 4-3-1-2 (and, by extension, the 4-3-2-1) is still one of the most popular formations in Italy.

Finally, I don't find it hard to get natural wide midfielders but, even if this was true, surely that reflects the popularity of formations with wingers in modern football (e.g. 4-5-1/4-3-3 & 4-2-3-1 etc.)?

The whole Arsenal squad are AMC

I agree Messi should be a AMR and think he should have his AMC aswell. This has bugged me for a few years with fm thats why i find myself going on editor and sorting positions out sometimes.

This is also the case with Lass Diarra, i know he has played RB an odd few times in his career but to have as one of his positions i don't think it should be. Maybe have him set to 13/14 for RB.

Messi didn't play as a winger last season. It was more like an inside forward position for me.

And this season, he's playing a bit more centrally as in:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/11/01/barcelona-5-0-sevilla-tactics/

and

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/10/19/barcelona-2-1-valencia-tactics/

That's certainly not a winger for me. A winger is an Aaron Lennon IMO.

I agree Messi should be a AMR and think he should have his AMC aswell. This has bugged me for a few years with fm thats why i find myself going on editor and sorting positions out sometimes.

This is also the case with Lass Diarra, i know he has played RB an odd few times in his career but to have as one of his positions i don't think it should be. Maybe have him set to 13/14 for RB.

So you think you are in a better position to know peoples natural position than those that have watched them since they were teens. Because a player plays in a position for a club, even if he plays better there doesn't make him natural in that position.

Messi played AMC last season.

So what? Giggs played MC in 2008/09 and that doesn't means he should be natural MC. Nick did indeed put him to be natural at MC, but corrected that in one of the patches after seeing that he was clearly wrong.

Messi didn't play as a winger last season. It was more like an inside forward position for me.

I understand what your saying but just because he has played one season just behind the striker doesn't mean he shouldn't have natural AMR where he has played nearly all of his career.

Even more strange is Ryan Babel is a natural AMC :confused::confused:

i thought i was the only one who was confused by this!

So you think you are in a better position to know peoples natural position than those that have watched them since they were teens. Because a player plays in a position for a club, even if he plays better there doesn't make him natural in that position.

Been watchin La Liga on Sky Sports for the last 11 years or so and seen Messi come onto the scene at 16 and been watchin him with amazement ever since.

He is a natural winger and am/forward, take a look on wiki.

Messi a natural AMC? The Barca Researcher watched the Worldcup?

I understand what your saying but just because he has played one season just behind the striker doesn't mean he shouldn't have natural AMR where he has played nearly all of his career.

Messi has never played the true AMR role IMO. Messi tends (or tended) to play on the right of a front three, but I certainly wouldn't describe that as an AMR role. As I said earlier it's more of an inside forward (right) position that anything.

An AMR will get chalk on his boots and will often start from deeper positions. In England, Aaron Lennon is a great example of a pure AMR (positional rather than talent-wise). Would you say Messi plays in a similar position to Lennon? I wouldn't.

Lennon and Messi and total opposites.

trust, you watch any Barca game pre last season and you will see Messi out wide and when he picks up the ball he drifts in just like Ronaldo does at Madrid and like robben or ribery do at bayern.

There all wingers naturally its just the way the game has gone with wingers playing on the opposite sides to there favoured foot.

Lennon and Messi and total opposites.

trust, you watch any Barca game pre last season and you will see Messi out wide and when he picks up the ball he drifts in just like Ronaldo does at Madrid and like robben or ribery do at bayern.

There all wingers naturally its just the way the game has gone with wingers playing on the opposite sides to there favoured foot.

You say that Lennon and Messi are total opposites. I agree. And Lennon is a pure AMR positionally. Positionally, they are different.

Take a look at Zonal Marking's view of Messi from two seasons ago: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/24/barcelona-2008-09-pep-guardiola-4-3-3/

While Messi starts in a wide right position, look at where his runs are. Compare this with a team playing a pure AMR: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/05/25/england-tactics-fabio-capello/

So what's the difference? Well, starting position and positions on the field predominantly. So, the articles sort of back what you're saying really about how Messi plays, but what I'm saying is that it's wrong to describe that as a pure AMR. He can certainly play there, but as I say, he's not a winger in the true sense of the word.

I noticed this in the demo also.

All those good inside forwards who were natural in AMR/L positions in FM10 now seem to be natural AMCs and accomplished in the wide AMR/L roles in FM11.

Maybe its an intended change from SI for the inside forwads to be just accomplished in the wide AMR/L roles and natural in the centre? That way would truely differentiate true natural wingers (lennon etc) from inside forwards (C Ronaldo, Messi, Jovetic etc etc)

I dont know, but it makes sense otherwise it would mean the researchers have done a wierd job in regards to these wide players and tbh i just dont see that.

Regarding Messi, he is a classic AMC playmaker: the enganche in Argentinian terms. As hotgreen808 said, just because he has been deployed in a wide position for Barcelona, does not mean that he should be natural there. I assume he is at least accomplished there, so what is the problem? To me, it makes perfect sense.

Regarding this talk of 'inside forwards' or playmakers being deployed on the flanks, Jonathan Wilson talks in his book about how the classic AMC playmaker has often been moved into the wide positions to cut inside in the modern game. I would suggest that this is precisely what has happened with the likes of Messi in Europe. When called upon by his country this summer, he was immediately thrust back into the classic enganche position in a diamond formation.

When called upon by his country this summer, he was immediately thrust back into the classic enganche position in a diamond formation.

Yes that is true but you look at his performances for the Argies......not impressive. The was alot of talk over there just before the World Cup on why he doesn't play as well for the national team as he does for Barca.

And for me the reason for this is Messi is stronger coming in off the left (where Barca usually play him) which makes him not as good for the Argies because they don't play him in his best positon (though i don't know which postion Messi himself prefers).

I think we should all settle on that he's an inside forward which you can precieve as both roles i guess.

four four two did an big thing about the "playmaker" being reborn in football a few months ago, (players like ozil or schneidjer (sp?) and the real madrid youngster whos name i cant remember) maybe FM2011 has taken into consideration the fact that there seems to be more of this type of player about these days and more managers are looking for them

Was just going to mention this. Good work.

Crouchy also makes a very valid point about formations these days.

Not too many AMC's for me.

Yes that is true but you look at his performances for the Argies......not impressive. The was alot of talk over there just before the World Cup on why he doesn't play as well for the national team as he does for Barca.

He didn't actually play that badly at the World Cup. I think it's been blown out of proportion somewhat, especially seeing as he didn't score (but his job was primarily to create behind a front two anyway). And performances over five games in a one off situation like the World Cup doesn't really mean anything regarding natural position. Look at how many top players underperformed in the World Cup.

Regardless, my own personal opinion is that he played pretty well in the World Cup. In the opening match against Nigeria, he might well have finished the game with a hat-trick but for some great goalkeeping. In the second match against Korea, he had a hand in every goal. Finally, against Greece, he was voted man of the match. In the second round, he assisted Carlos Tévez for the first goal in a 3–1 win against Mexico. In the quarters, the team had a collective nightmare and was knocked out of the tournament by Germany. Overall, that's not bad going for a player in a 4-3-1-2, who has the job to primarily create for the forwards.

And for me Messi is stronger coming in off the left (where Barca usually play him) which makes him not as good for the Argies because they don't play him in his best positon (though i don't know which postion Messi himself prefers).

Again you're judging him on the World Cup, which is a flawed analysis. It's also a different position that he was playing in, with different requirements and expectations, so you can't really make this kind of comparison anyway.

In Argentina, he is seen as the successor to Diego Maradona. The enganche. The kind of player who the whole team is built around, usually in a 4-3-1-2.

At Barcelona, however, they traditionally play a Dutch style 4-3-3 and so Messi has been used in one of the wide positions but we all agree that he isn't a typical wide player/winger and that he drifts into inside forward positions.

Ultimately, I still don't see the problem. If your opinion is that he is better cutting in from the right then feel free to retrain him and, presuming his versatility attribute is good enough, he'll eventually become natural for you.

I'm not judging him on one world cup, If you read my other post i said there was an issue with there fans before the world cup about Messi not playing well for them after they had a really poor qualifying campaign. I too thought Messi was OK (not brilliant) at the World Cup there was alot worse .....cough! cough! Rooney.

I'm not going to debate this or that player's ability to play AMC versus winger, but I will say that there seem to be a very high number of players listed as AMC in the demo. Just anecdotally, it seems like anyone listed as AML or AMR is also listed as AMC and ML or MR, if not also ST or another position. Is this by design?

When setting up custom tables/views on one's roster screen, is there an option to show only "primary" position in the column?

I'm not going to debate this or that player's ability to play AMC versus winger, but I will say that there seem to be a very high number of players listed as AMC in the demo. Just anecdotally, it seems like anyone listed as AML or AMR is also listed as AMC and ML or MR, if not also ST or another position. Is this by design?

When setting up custom tables/views on one's roster screen, is there an option to show only "primary" position in the column?

I think much of this is due to the way that frontmen are going, look at Cristiano R, 3 or 4 years ago he was a winger but football is evolving and players play all across the front line now. Anelka being another example, pure striker yet often plays from the right and still gets goals.

I think much of this is due to the way that frontmen are going, look at Cristiano R, 3 or 4 years ago he was a winger but football is evolving and players play all across the front line now. Anelka being another example, pure striker yet often plays from the right and still gets goals.

I definitely understand a common pairing of AML/ST or AMR/ST. You're absolutely right. But is this breed of player also ML/MR material?

As far as the Inside Forward being AMC capable, in addition to their AML/AMR position, I can see how this is a logical nexus. It seems like Inside Forwards often play tucked in, somewhere between FM's AML/AMR and AMC position, meaning they are probably talented at any location in that general area.

I like to think that these different players are tied to the Player Templates system somehow...

I definitely understand a common pairing of AML/ST or AMR/ST. You're absolutely right. But is this breed of player also ML/MR material?

It is quite common to have a forward who ends up playing as an makeshift winger or wide midfielder, yes.

It is quite common to have a forward who ends up playing as an makeshift winger or wide midfielder, yes.

Agreed, whilst they wouldn't be ideal they should still do a job.

Just a note that we should at least try to relate our posts to FM somehow. Ta.

Just a note that we should at least try to relate our posts to FM somehow. Ta.

I thought the whole thread was about relating FM positions to real life? In that case, we're all firmly on topic.