Positioning/Off the Ball Question

Just wondering if I can get official clarification here as to the difference between Positioning and Off the Ball player attributes.

People say over and over that Positioning is for defense while Off the Ball is for offense. Which makes sense, sure. And I'm sure that is correct.

However, is it completely black and white as many people suggest? Assuming you play a tactic that does not require a striker to do any defending/pressing -- Does a striker with Positioning 1 make no difference at all from Positioning 19?

I always thought that for a Target Man, for example, Off the Ball was an important attribute that governed the amount and quality of his runs into space and movement off the ball. However, I also figured that Positioning came into play too in governing where he generally locates himself on the pitch and how well he positions himself generally (ie, not making a "run"). For example I assumed that a Target Man with 20 positioning would be useful because he would stay in important areas in the center and not drift out of position (deep, to the wings), then his Off the Ball would take effect from there.

Am I incorrect here?

For defenders it is, of course, more simple because rarely do Centerbacks need to make off the ball movements or runs, while positioning for them is obviously key. Fullbacks and Wing Backs, obviously, need a good mix of the two. So my main question is how it relates to attacking players -- surely Positioning is not just useless for them...?

Good question, check out the Tactical forum as there is an excellent post by Cleon which goes into detail about this.

I think that the first case is more correct (though extreme). Although he can get the ball many times by making interception if he has a high positioning attribute.

However, is it completely black and white as many people suggest? Assuming you play a tactic that does not require a striker to do any defending/pressing -- Does a striker with Positioning 1 make no difference at all from Positioning 19?

As the you lose the ball, there starts your defensive phase.

All your players partecipate to the defensive phase (if/when/how it depends on your tactic). Strikers are your first defenders in this sense, so position is useful.

It's not a must, but if you need to focus on defensive I'll give it a try. I remember Croych and Mchelidze as typical kind of such players, but I can be wrong.

As the you lose the ball, there starts your defensive phase.

All your players partecipate to the defensive phase (if/when/how it depends on your tactic). Strikers are your first defenders in this sense, so position is useful.

It's not a must, but if you need to focus on defensive I'll give it a try. I remember Croych and Mchelidze as typical kind of such players, but I can be wrong.

Yep, this is one of the reasons Barcelona is so successful in real life, even their attacking players are very good at positioning themselves when pressing. It's not as well represented in the game though, which might be one of the reasons why it's impossible to get the same amount of possession as Barca has irl on a consistent basis

ok right, but positioning doesn't just "shut off" for offensive players when you DO have the ball, right? i mean its still factored in a small amount, no? because some people talk about it as if it is a truly irrelevant stat when you are in possession. - which i find hard to believe as in my opening example up top.

(don't close this thread either, this doesn't belong in the tactics forum because its a question of the game attributes themselves, not tactics or how to use em...)

thanks.

ok right, but positioning doesn't just "shut off" for offensive players when you DO have the ball, right? i mean its still factored in a small amount, no? because some people talk about it as if it is a truly irrelevant stat when you are in possession. - which i find hard to believe as in my opening example up top.

It's hard to be defending if you are in possession!

For what it's worth, even though it's not terribly important a statistic, a player with higher positioning will probably perform slightly better. It may be useful, for example, if he ever finds himself deep and the team does not have possession, and could have some use when defending set-pieces.

hmm well i'd love to get some official word here. i appreciate the comments but people are slightly missing my main point - i think "positioning" is an entirely relevant OFFENSIVE statistic for when you have the ball (not just for high-pressure when you lose it like Barca). to me, the "off the ball" attribute sounds more like player runs and movement. however, they have to start running from somewhere, right? so (when you have the ball) it seems like "positioning" would govern where the players are on the pitch and how well they stick to their assigned spots or just wander around recklessly. for example, Striker A could be making great off the ball runs in midfield, but he would be screwing up the whole team shape by not being upfront.

when i manage in FM i consider "positioning" to be an important offensive attribute, along with "off the ball", for creating a smart, tactical offensive scheme.

ok right, but positioning doesn't just "shut off" for offensive players when you DO have the ball, right? i mean its still factored in a small amount, no? because some people talk about it as if it is a truly irrelevant stat when you are in possession. - which i find hard to believe as in my opening example up top.

(don't close this thread either, this doesn't belong in the tactics forum because its a question of the game attributes themselves, not tactics or how to use em...)

thanks.

Positioning will indirectly help an attacking player. Basically when you win the ball back he is more likely to be in a useful position. Similarly a defender with low work rate and off the ball could easily find himself playing the opposition onside when you lose the ball as he has been ambling up the pitch at his own pace and failing to keep a line with the other defenders.